BTW, a real solution to the problem would be adding a checkbox "Prohibit banned users from passing", such as pass_sgt_banned_check - that would solve both users who agree with banning, and those who don't. One could choose whether he supports what we're doing, or not.
Edit:
And of course, if somebody unchecked that option (checked by default), he automatically loses ANY rights to report that giveaway in the report center.
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That's a pretty good idea. With there already being checks for rule breakers in SG, that would be a nice addition to the list.
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IMHO a real solution would be to allow for multiple offenses as "proof of guilt" before a perma-ban is applied. Even SG (and pretty much every civilized society on the planet) provides leniency for a first offense. Mistakes can and will be made on both sides of the playing field.
Using your own policies concerning SGTools and applying them to SG in general, every regifter, every person who has ever had a multiple win or spoke out of line on the forums would be perma-banned from SG right now. I know of several firsthand who have turned out to be wonderful contributors to this community and only needed a swift kick in the pants to turn their act around. ;)
Perhaps even a week ban for a first offense, a month for a second, and a permanent ban for a third offense would be much more reasonable. Even just a second chance is much more acceptable than a first offense ban.
Keep in mind, too, I am someone who is very, very hard on people who break rules.
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Can we just agree that permaban thing was an utter shit idea. /thread
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Especially all leakers and scammers would agree with that :-/
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But the thing doesn't concern them. The loser in this will be someone who found a link, and might not even be aware of it having some rules attached.
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But why those guys are entering leaked links? They think they can abuse the system or they just don't care what to enter?
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Maybe someone sets a trap? I mean if this thing happens, I'd not feel safe entering any private GA anymore, unless it's by one of my SG friends, and I'd have to trust them a lot.
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Maybe someone sets a trap?
Just because people could do that, means that we should allow all leakers and cheaters to pass through, right? Maybe we should even encourage them to do so? "Yeah go ahead join that giveaway, we won't do anything with that because somebody could put a trap for legit user!"
It was already explained multiple times - if you get a link from user A, and giveaway is created by user B, then you should never join that giveaway, regardless if it's SGT giveaway or not, because joining through leaked links is ALSO AGAINST SG TOS.
And if somebody is trying to set a "trap" on you, by encouraging you to join his giveaway, then you have enough proof in your chat logs to appeal to the possible ban here, which will also permanently ban the abuser. I can't even imagine why somebody would risk a permanent suspension by doing something like that, everybody is well aware of the consequences.
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They can get rerolled. Not such a huge issue. I think most people would agree that it's better to let a few criminals walk free, than a few innocent people getting jailed for no reason. And rerolling fixes it perfectly anyway.
Or maybe SGTools shouldn't even be a thing, because apparently someone I care about had a VAC ban for using FOV changer on some originally console game ported on PC but left with console FOV and no option to change it other than 3rd party software. He can't enter most of those GAs. Do you think this is fair for him?
And why would I go through trouble searching for screenshots/logs of someone inviting me to a GA? What if I lost the message? Innocent people should never ever get permabanned anywhere, period.
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than a few innocent people getting jailed for no reason
Firstly I'd want to see those innocent people being unbanned, because so far I didn't hear of any single case, and you're saying like it's very usual issue.
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What are those people on top of this page and bottom of 14th page doing? All cheaters?
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Yes, all cheaters according to me. KnSYS even provided everyone of them with the evidence. Those are not randomly selected people for "ban of the week".
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I think people overemphasize the trap aspect. The private giveaway links were always intended to be given only by the creator. Anyone else sharing them, without the creator's specific permission, are leaking the giveaway and thus breaking the rules. If you see private giveaway shared by someone else, the chances are high that the giveaway is leaked. In that case, it does not matter if it is behind SGTools or not. Entering on such giveaways makes one a jerk.
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And again, the drama has grown high. It's something implicit on SGT it seems.
I've read though the posts that happened on the last hours (night on europe), so let's start stating some facts about what are SGT bans.
- SGT ban means that the person banned cannot enter the giveaway part of the site. That means if he tries to view a giveaway url, dashboard, manage zone, getting a link or trying to qualify for a giveaway a banned landing will appear to him/her. Every other part is accesible to a banned person.
- SGT Bans are (at least for now) permanent.
- Bans being permanent doesn't mean they can't be lifted or discussed, same as Steamgifts. Every banned person can appeal to the banned decision, usually on private but it's up to you to create drama out of it.
- SGT have bans, and permanent bans, since the very beginning. It's not something new, it's just that now it gained some visibility.
- The use of bans is to protect giveaway creators from leakers and people who use leaked links. It's a waste of time to keep asking for rerolls because invalid entries are always appearing. This way the number of invalid entries are extremely low.
- SGT uses the same principles as Steamgifts for banning. Every case is revised and if found guilty banned by hand. There is no automated procedure, and it will never be. I don't trust an algorithm to determine if a user is guilty or not. That being said, right now we are only two people able to ban, on steamgifts there are like 5 or 6, but the systems is the same, if the mod/supermod finds you guilty he/she bans you -> Mods are judge, jury, and executors.
- We don't ban people for fun, we have better things to do than doing that. We just ban people reported by giveaway creators, we don't even look for invalid entries ourselves.
- Archi can't even decide who to ban, he just can ban people that are invalid entries of a giveaway, specifying only the giveaway id and a list of innocents.
It's fun that some people say that SGT bans are random and unfair, since we are a ton more open and transparent that the ones on steamgifts itself.
I'm open to discuss everything on SGT and of course a system of strikes is open wide for discussion, and I'm especially looking forward to feedback from giveaway creators about that matter.
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http://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/uiEoVkB
Said what I had to say there. :)
Any time something is left in the hands of humans, mistakes can and will occur.
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Perhaps it's an option to make a rule based on "number of leaked giveaways entered"? Then giveaway creators can decide whether they want to use 3 strikes or 1 strike or not use the rule at all?
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I find such option to be good. More choises is generally good as it allows people to use the tool for different cases and needs.
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Public shaming is a bit shady sector. Especially if the list is posted inside SG (e.g. forums). Things usually progress as an arming race. Contributor do not want their giveaways leaked so they add protection. Some people like to circumvent that so other types of protections are created.
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That is not correct, at all.
I was evaluating the possibility to allow creators to blacklist cheaters, but real cheaters not people who enter a leaked giveaway.
Cheaters = Giveawar leakers and people misusing giveaway feedback
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That's still under evaluation, most probably if the list goes public in any way it'll be a userscript to blacklist cheaters. And please read the definition of cheater from the post above.
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Both infractions of that definition of cheaters means a permaban on steamgifts.
Problem is that a permaban can only be issued by two people on steamgifts an only on a specific type of support ticket. Apart, those permabans needs CG initial authorization, and we all know that CG time is extremely limited.
In the meanwhile we have some cheaters that under the rules of steamgifts must be permabanned, but due to bureaucracy and lack of powers can't be banned in a long time.
Solution is to blacklist those people, so at least they don't enter giveaways, and the only option is to create a userscript to do that.
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Both infractions of that definition of cheaters means a permaban on steamgifts.
Just a heads up, but that's incorrect. A first time offense for leaking a GA link is 3 days suspension, not a perma-ban on Steamgifts.
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Yep it's true, it can lead to a permaban but not on first or second offense. I remember that the guy who leaked 2hu event long ago finally got permabanned.
But on the case of SGT, where all that matters is protecting a private giveaway url, leaking it to others is the worst offense that you can do, so it deserves a permaban. Without leakers, there is no leaked entries :)
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It's not outdated. KnSYS still plans to do that, whether he does do that or not, is not yet known. I can't see how that Q&A point is misleading.
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Since when "is planned" is equal to "will come"? To me, "is planned" means "we have that in mind, and it might come".
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KnSYS has the last word on implementing it or not, I'm only helping to maintain healthy community by banning cheaters, leakers and other people for inappropriate behaviour.
I don't want to take part in deciding how SGT should look like, because it's not my project.
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Archi isn't it so that people who don't like where SGTools is or where SGTools is going have the clear cut option to not use and not take part in SGTools and SGTools giveaways?
And as such this inflated drama here now is much to do about nothing...
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Of course they can, but people instead decide to start pointless rant about me "potentially" banning innocent people, some deep trap theories or more.
That's why I'm somehow happy that I don't need to deal with any of that, because I only mark guys as guilty (or not), and it's up to KnSYS system to do something with that information.
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I call it the Sasquatch theory (= the deep trap theories) but there are no " evidences provided " Trademark! ^ ^ Bad joke I know but couldn't resist.
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I'd be fine with that.. Would use a "0 leaked giveaways" for puzzles and allow 1 or 2 for a train..
Personally I'm even more in favor of a system where you can redeem yourself after your first mistake.. Let's say a message explaining why you're suspended from giveaways.. telling you you shouldn't enter private giveaways unless the creator gives you the link, and then a 1-week ban starting when you first see that message. If you've had that message and suspension and you do it again, you're out..
I really like that SGTOOLS makes people aware they messed up with unactivated or double wins, since they usually have the chance to fix it later.. Would be nice to have the same effect for leaked giveaways..
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+1, precisely what I have been pushing for all this time. :)
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I agree that after a violation there should be an option to return after a period of time, but 1 week is not a reasonable amount of time. I feel 6-12 months is more fair. If, after that, someone wants to try again, I think they should be allowed the opportunity, under probation. A repeat violation at that point should probably be permanent.
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With the current "first offense is a ban" policy, how many people are going to think that maybe, just maybe, a mistake was made somewhere and not tick the option to not allow banned people to enter?
I know a few level 10's who would be banned from SG if they followed a similar approach on this site. A first offense perma ban policy is a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion. I'm all for enforcing the rules, but I also realize that people make mistakes (on both sides of the fence). I also realize that people can redeem themselves, given the opportunity.
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I'm good with how it's now is. Those that are permabanned will never cheat the system again and this is a good and clear deterrent for those that think that they can cheat, leak and enter any giveaway that they think they are entitled to.
Also I would certainly use that cheaters blacklist script just to make sure that they can't enter any giveaway that I make.
I find it strange that there's some loud vocal opposition on how SGTools works as both devs use the methods that were in place ages ago. I know that some of my very early SGTools giveaways had a few gate crashers and they were dealt with like they are dealt with now.
It has to me the perception that someone is calling out that they caught a bullshark but in reality it's a trout. Any software can be misused but misusing SGTools will lead to that the one that misuses it will be caught and permabanned.
Talking about myself I enter SGTools and forum invite only giveaways always through the SGTools link in the main post.
But of course entering SGTools protected giveaways not through the official link in the main post or by someone that gives you them on a (foreign) forum or not the SG forum or a feed is pretty much living dangerously and it's reminiscent of modding a VAC protected multiplayer game. Chances are in both examples that you can and will get burnt eventually and it's just a matter of time before it happens.
Also what get's people in troubles is that they inherently think and are sometimes so entitled that they can enter any and all giveaways of Steamgifts and even those that are SGTools protected with reqs they normally can't enter.
I really have no trouble with the fact that cheaters leakers and those that are so entitled are getting caught and permabanned and named and shamed. If you want to clean up the backyard; by just looking at it without making your hands dirty it's of little to no use.
Knsys is the creator of SGTools backed up with Archi and ArchiBoT and it's up to them how SGTools is run and guided and I'm very good with the way it goes now!
To date there is not one case found for those that advocate that SGTools isn't running on the good tracks (read: how they want that SGToos is run). Not one case so far of the baiting with SGTools invites and then reporting those that took the bait. If this happens and the giveaway creator is caught he will get permabanned so for those that are contemplating this "Sasquatch" procedure (knowing that there's a lot of talk about sasquatchs but never a confirmed sitting) they should know that the trap they want to catch users in can be their own trap.
Who does like cheaters and leakers?
Also acting like Statler and Waldorf is just arguing for the sake of arguing, yes people can make a mistake, mistakes can be rectified and I rather have some collateral damage knowing that the SGTools functionality does their intended job and that there are consequences for does that want to cheat SGTools.
I would say permabanning is the only way as I have been 12 years on Steam and I do recall the time where VAC bans were temporary and removable bans but that changed thanks to the cheaters because Valve noticed that those that had their VAC ban lifted that they just began cheating again and permabans are a good way to stop that.
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I took part in small "experiment", where GA creator made private GA and give link to few only know to them people, and they were then asked to give this link to other people, that might want to play in certain game (there was thread in the forum about results some time ago).
I also have been asked to give GA link to "people I know and think that they deserve to enter into this GA".
Making Sgtools totally and forever ban people for 1st time offendings is IMO bad idea, as none of this "events" would take place as honest people will grow paranoid and won't enter into private GAs in this way, and cheaters won't even know that there is rule like this (and when it's not stated in GA description), which will make more users (like the one that is already present in this thread) which will make useless spammy messages over and over again.
I'm all for banning people who try to bypass rules, but there should be also some kind of "warning" - aka temporary suspension with information why it was served.
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Problem is that most cheaters and leakers are saying that they unaware of this while most SGTools giveaways have a notice/disclaimer about this and in the SG guidelines and FAQ one can find that leaking invite only giveaways is prohibited.
Just out of the top of my head I have seen what happened with Melly, Dragomania, Fnord, Eeev, myself and so much others that were victims of cheaters, leakers and those that think that they can enter any and all giveaways no matter what.
Also I have seen countless times a lot of people posting that you can't leak giveaways and that you mustn't take part in a SGTools giveaway without going to the SGtools check.
Cheaters and leakers don't feel sorry for the giveaway creators but they feel only sorry for themselves because they were caught and can't enter any more SGTools giveaways.
Afaik no one on SG is forced to use SGTools as it's a third party site.
I really believe that how it's now (permaban) is the way to go as dishonest people will think twice before they cut themselves of from SGTools giveaways.
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Who wants to be unbanned from this spyware anyway? :3
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i want because they banned me without any evidences / reasons.
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How about YOU give evidences that you didn't do anything wrong? :3
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lol ? how i can do it ? for example Policeman will give you ticket because you stolen cookie at shop - when: a)you have it in your pocket b) someone told that Policeman, but he didin;t find it with you ?
how can i give evidence about thing i don't do ? lol, someone can do this exercise ? if i don;t do, i will not have any evidences.
you gave me pernament ban so you should have evidences for that action.
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So you finally see that you have no chances to be unbanned then, right? :3
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your took of mind, so please: give me evidences that you didn't give your friends sgtools leaked links or you will get pernaments suspension in 1hr.
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Let's discuss in this answer about a strike system for banning, please keep it here so we all can read it without moving up and down the whole thread.
Information about bans can be read here, please read it first :)
Current proposition from Tzaar is a 3-strike system, which is quite standard.
- First strike - 1 week ban
- Second strike - 1 month ban
- Third strike - permaban
Take into account that this strike system will only apply to leaked entries. Leakers itself or people who misuse giveaway feedback to bypass rules will get a permaban since first infraction, as they are the worst kind of infractions you can do against a giveaway creator.
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I'll just put this here again, as my reasoning behind it.
Also, the suspension/ban periods I suggested were entirely random and off the top of my head. :X
TLDR Version: Give people more than one chance, as people can make mistakes, but can also redeem themselves.
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The problem is they're the usual people, 2ch users, that get shafted with this because they have no regard for GA creators. They're the usual ones leaking GAs from other people and complaining when those GAs get leaked. They've the same ones over many users in the past months. On another note, one user complaining here got shut down after lying through his teeth about how they got the GA when the GA creator basically said, you're full of shit.
SGtools is a third party site that doesn't hinder you from experiencing you from using the website in general. It works the same as a blacklist. Leakers and misuse of GA feedback should get a permaban and as a person also keen with the concept of redemption, I think only a 2 strike redemption should suffice 1 to learn from your mistakes, 2nd to see that you have shit friends leaking you GAs.
As a victim of his GAs being leaked before and another dodging the SGtools tests by misuse of GA feedback (which should've been permaban on SG but wasn't acted upon) I am the type of person SGtools protects shit from. If the creator is the one giving out links with malicious intent, they should be banned as well.
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To be fair, I hope you at least read the link I posted. Knsys took one possible suggestion I posted and posted it himself with my name tacked on.
I did say even two strikes would be better than a perma-ban on a first offense, and not just because the person entering the leaked link could have made a mistake, but also because the people doing the banning are susceptible to bias and error as well. "Judge, jury, and executioner", I believe Archi called it.
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I did read it. That's why I said as a person also keen with the concept of redemption.
And as your example stated, applying them to SG in general but the thing is it's not. You can actually still use the site even without the SGtools GAs. It restricts much like any group GA/regional GA/whitelist/blacklist does. How many shitlords with multiple offenses get away with a lot of their shit because of leniency even under multiple instances. The fact konrads is still around is proof of that. The fact that those shitty 2ch users are still around is proof of that even though they were one of the biggest reasons that the tools got the support from people like me.
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As long as you're in agreement that a first offense perma-ban is unreasonable, I don't disagree with anything else in particular you've said. I fully supported the use of SGTools up until this new ban policy (though I used it only once myself).
I believe the first offense bans are rather ham-fisted and subject to error and personal bias. The longer this goes on, the more it will become apparent, though.
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I'm not in agreement actually. I'm fine with that either way. You like to raise the points that knsys and Archi could be in error but most of the time those leaked links/entries are reported by the GA creators themselves and the Misuse of GA feedback is because of cached data they have which is damning by itself.
It's like you're telling me that getting angry at the users who fucked me over in my GAs and wanting them to get punished is unreasonable is at most part unfair coming from you considering you mostly give to the public and never have to deal with it as substantially as the rest of the victims have. Even at the point where they said "their word is law" I agree with it. My invite only GA, my rules. Like I said, it doesn't stop them from using the site, it only prohibits them from joining SGtools GAs which is a small amount of GAs available on the site.
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Archi and Knsys decide who and when to ban. What's to stop them from unbanning a friend or banning an enemy? How is that equal and fair across the board? You think it won't happen?
I'm not saying people shouldn't be punished, I am saying they should be given a second chance. Obviously you disagree. Oh well. I'm a bit disappointed then, especially from all these people on a gifting site. :)
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What's to stop them? Vigilance that was born out of people like me who are stickler to the rules. Heck especially from people like you who don't like what they offer.
It stops being just a gifting site when people break the spirit of gifting and shitting on gifters. You just want people like me to take the hit so you won't be disappointed on the spirit of gifting? Why punish the givers when it's the cheaters that are to blame why this situation arose in the first place. In a perfect giving world, there would have been no need for rules or SGtools to exist but that's not the case isn't it?
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Didn't expect such a toxic reply, but okay, I see how things are now.
Heck especially from people like you who don't like what they offer.
I'm curious what you mean by that? I, too, am a stickler for the rules, yet I find this perma-ban on first offense rule unreasonable.
Are you impying that arbitrary bans for speaking one's opinion are acceptable? I certainly hope not. I would like some clarification there, please.
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The latter paragraph is a reaction to your passive-aggressiveness especially on your previous reply. How is that toxic? If you think that's already being toxic then stop being passive-aggressive towards people who have a different opinion than yours. It's been known you're the type.
Where in that did I mention that banning one for speaking their opinion should be accepted? Point it out otherwise stop with putting words into my mouth. The clarification is, you don't agree with their rules ergo people like you who don't agree with them are usually more vigilant with their potential or possibility in breaking rules.
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you don't agree with their rules ergo people like you who don't agree with them are usually more vigilant with their potential or possibility in breaking rules.
Yeah, we're done here. Thanks for the bold assessment of my personality for speaking my opinion about something being unreasonable.
I thought you were better than that. I stand corrected, sir.
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How is that a bad thing? Do you not really understand the implications of that? It means people who see potential abuse are often the most vigilant for potential abuse and you'll likely be one of the people that would keep that, SGtools/Archi+Knsys, in check. I don't understand how you seem to be thinking it's bad? You're keeping them in check, keeping them honest.
If people think someone is a despot, the people are more active in keeping the person in check. Double checking if they're doing anything wrong. How do you even take that as a bad thing and keeping with your passive-aggressiveness too.
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I believe a first time offense perma-ban is unreasonable. Just that. Period. Nothing more.
Clearly you disagree. So be it. I can accept that. Goodnight.
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I mean as it stands it is their current rule and you're thinking it being unreasonable is not agreeing with that.
Archi and Knsys decide who and when to ban. What's to stop them from unbanning a friend or banning an enemy? How is that equal and fair across the board? You think it won't happen?
You said this and I replied it is because of vigilance of the people who are stickler for rules and people who disagree with their stance. That's why I said my opinion on the matter based on people's behavior. I don't know how you got offended by that to be quite frank.
I've accepted that we disagree on the matter but don't understand why you're suddenly acting like you're an offended party.
Anyway, if you want to leave it at that then so be it.
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What's stopping the folks running SteamGifts from unbanning a friend or banning an enemy? They certainly can whip out that permanent ban if they so choose. I haven't seen you speak against SteamGifts regarding that, so the only difference with this case seems to be that you trust that there will be no mistakes or personal bias regarding the bans in SteamGifts.
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Nothing, but we're talking about SGTools here, not SG.
BUT - the biggest difference here is that entering a leaked giveway earns you a suspension, not a perma-ban. You get a 2nd chance here, on SGTools you don't.
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There's also a big difference with perma-bans between SteamGifts and SGTools.
But really I was just interested in that one part of your argument. I wanted to know if having someone with the ability to permanently ban you on a whim is generally an issue to you or did you just have something personal against knsys and Archi.
Despite the possibility of that, you have spent quite alot of money on SteamGifts and presumably have enjoyed the time you have spent here. You could be just gone one day if cg decides so.
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Jatan said best everything I wanted to say below.
Despite the possibility of that, you have spent quite alot of money on SteamGifts and presumably have enjoyed the time you have spent here. You could be just gone one day if cg decides so.
And yet, because I am still here, I have trust in the site and in CG/support to operate things fairly, primarily due to the things that jatan has stated below. If I didn't have that faith in the current system, believe me ... I wouldn't have stayed long.
I stand strongly by what I said -- a first offense perma-ban policy isn't the solution, and will become part of a bigger problem.
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I'm in support of the 2nd, not the first.
Adding a checkbox still possibly punishes what could be innocent bystanders, and as someone who firmly believes in giving people 2nd chances, that doesn't fit my criteria for "fair."
I believe everyone should be given a 2nd chance. People make mistakes. Keep in mind, I'm a stickler for the rules, and even then I firmly believe this. It's how SG is run, and I believe it's the best way to avoid possible errors by not only users, but also on the administrative end of things (they can make mistakes, too!).
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I believe the harsher views come from personal experience with leaked entries, which can make one detest those who use leaks. There's comfort in knowing that by using SGTools, those who used leaked giveaways in the past wouldn't be able to join, even if they do pass the filter. Of course any compromise to the rules would remove that comfort.
However I do think compromise would be good here. There should be some slack to give that wouldn't discourage those giveaway creators, too much at least.
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My only concern is that someone will be wrongly banned. Just that. Even as a giveaway creator myself (with over 1100 GAs created), I sincerely dislike even the possibility that someone could be wrongly or arbitrarily banned without a 2nd chance.
If even one person is wrongly banned, then the system has failed imho, and I can't in good conscience accept that ...
That is the sole reason I asked for a compromise, and what I feel to be a fair one (similar to the system SG itself uses).
If a compromise cannot be reached, I will openly and fully oppose the use of SGTools, as I feel it would be the right thing to do, regardless of the shit-storm it is likely to drop on my head. I don't expect people to understand that or my motives, nor do I expect them to agree. :)
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Well, if anyone has managed to keep up with most of your messages on this thread, it shouldn't be hard for them to understand your motive.
It does seem like some kind of compromise is coming though. Just remains to be seen what exactly and how people will react to it.
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There won't ever be a "wrongly banned" person, since as I told a thousand times bans are not set on stone, can be appealed, discussed and talked.
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There won't ever be a "wrongly banned" person
If I truly believed that, I wouldn't be asking for a change in the ban policy. :)
I'd be naive and stupid if I simply walked through life taking people at their word.
Also, the same people who do the banning are the ones to whom appeals are made. I don't find that particularly appealing either, as one is much less likely to admit a mistake was made when it was he who made that mistake. I'd highly suggest a third party be involved, but I doubt that will ever happen. ;)
At any rate, I've made my perspective abundantly clear on the matter. We're just talking in circles now, and I was only addressing Saniala anyway. :)
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I wish I could say I never wrongly banned someone. Mistakes can and will happen no matter how vigilant you are.
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We have multiple layers of oversight. If anything, we're far too lenient on people. sgtools only has knsys.
Here's the thing. Steamgifts tries to reduce the number of incorrect permanent bans to a minimum. We basically have the stance that it's better that a hundred non-activators go free than one innocent person gets banned. Sgtools is the opposite. Apply blanket bans no matter what.
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Another difference:
Steamgifts:
- follow different rules
Sgtools:
- follow one rule
SGtools admin should decide what punishment is appropriate.Why do we need a public discussion ? If you don't like how he handles things,don't use/support sgtools !
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Why do we need a public discussion ?
Because not everyone has the same opinion, and this topic was posted on a public discussion forum.
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In the end the admin make a decision.There will always be people who disagree with the (current/changed) rules.
You have 2 legal options:
- accept/comply rules (even if you don't like them personally)
- don't use/support the tool anymore
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And even if that happened, people are still free to discuss it.
That's the wonderful thing about open forums. ;)
There's one person on this forum who decides what can/cannot be discussed, and that's CG.
You forgot the third option, by the way:
- Openly oppose the rules. ;)
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Why do we need a public discussion ?
Uh, isn't that the point of this thread? For discussion?
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Besides the fact that we go around in circles... (already enough proposals)
..this "discussion" turns into
-Why was I banned/What have i done/I am innocent/I didn't know this... (in short:typical excuses of Cheaters)
-i don't trust/like the way how sg admin solve "problems"
therefore:NO !
Accept the way how sg admin handle cheater or simply don't use sgtools anymore.
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I like the swift justice of SGTools much more than some of the long road to China on foot justice of SG Support...
Just one personal example:
I had a SGTools gate crasher that I reported to Knys because he had stats (how can one take part in a 1/1 gifts req if one has about a 200 win and a 10 gift ratio) that there's was no way he could have taken part in my SGTools giveaway honestly by passing the SGTools gate and this person was swiftly permabanned within 24 hours and this user will never cheat again and he will never have the chance to cheat again (and he was reported by other users for also SGTools gate crashing).
TL DR: Permabanned within 24 hours and will never cheat any SGTools giveaway ever again!
I reported a scammer to SG support with evidence and screenshots and because it's a serial scammer he's reported multiples times to SG support and made atleast 5 other victims in the very same way. This ticket is now 11 months pending. And the time between that I reported this to SG support and the time that SG support reacts is the time that this serial scammer is making more victims and is getting fully away with it.
TL DR: SG support justice is very swiftly when it's about the petty calling out rule (I find personally that there are far worse things one can do on SG like non-activating, re-selling and re-trading wins, putting up free games, re-gifting...) But when it comes to major infractions SG support is more on the side of the infractions BECAUSE or BY WAY of a snails pace action against these heavy infractions.
I personally prefer the SGTools justice!
There's much talk and awareness, disclaimers, notices and such about not leaking and cheating SGTools links and invite only giveaways.
No multiple strikes = no multiple chances to do the same thing.
Swift and very fast justice = stopping cheaters and leakers to do it again and again and again.
No 11 months pending but very swift justice that stops these cheaters and leakers to have the time of the world to do new infractions.
Also it's clear to me that some here are fuelling and inflating this artificial drama probably with alter, personal or hidden reasons but if they don't like SGTools they should know that they aren't forced to make SGTools giveaways and they aren't forced to enter SGTools giveaways.
I hope Knsys won't let him be bullied; by some vocal noise and some deep black-ops theories that have no foundation what's so ever and no evidence to date; will keep everything as it is and keeps permabanning cheaters and leakers on first strike!
Giving cheaters more strikes is giving them the more chances to do some more cheating and leaking...
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Let's see how swift they will be when they'll have 40 000 pending reports
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That doesn't change the fact TJ that major infractions of SGTools are very but very swiftly dealt with and are permanently dealt with and are not 11 months pending with a chance of only a temporary suspension that results in that the same offender can just do the same or another infraction again.
And that's talking about major infractions and not minor or petty rule breaking.
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You seem to have a stance that if someone cheats once they are always a cheater. That is not a correct assertion in the large majority of cases. For non-activation, for example, 95% of first time offenders will never offend again after being suspended, even if the suspension duration is relatively short.
I obviously don't have access to sgtools statistics, but let's assume the same ratio as steamgifts. By giving a permanent ban on the first infraction, you are removing 95% of people who could be successfully rehabilitated just to punish the 5% of true cheaters.
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I know the time that VAC bans were permanent and it's not by a fluke that the then temporary VAC bans became permanent VAC bans. They became permanent because valve noticed that those that had their VAC ban removed just began cheating again so the kudos for a permanent VAC ban goes to the cheaters themselves.
Same way for the SGTools cheaters and leakers.
Cheaters and leakers aren't sorry for the giveaway creators they want to cheat, they are sorry because they are caught.
Cheaters and leakers don't learn anything but to come more adept at cheating.
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Do you have any facts or statistics to back up your assertions?
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Those SGTools rulebreakers (no calling out you know) that I reported personally to Knsys were also reported by other SG users for the same reason (SGTools gate crashing) and are now permabanned.
Rehabilitation is a nice and posh word but those that I encountered are clearly repeat offenders.
If you are talking about VAC bans and if you have some Steam anciennity then you'll know they started out as temporary and became permanent because of the legion of serial cheaters.
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I'm asking for data you have about these two assertions in particular:
Cheaters and leakers aren't sorry for the giveaway creators they want to cheat, they are sorry because they are caught.
Cheaters and leakers don't learn anything but to come more adept at cheating.
Edit: You have personal experience with maybe 5 people entering your leaked giveaway. My data is from hundreds if not thousands of people I've seen suspended or given suspensions to.
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Do you have any stats to give about how many of those that you gave a suspension to have got another suspension again aka how many repeated offenders?
How many did leak invite only giveaways? And how may did it more than once?
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In addition, VAC bans cannot be compared to entering leaked giveaways. One is an active action you know is cheating that you must perform to trigger the VAC system. In the other case, you cannot positively know you are entering a leaked giveaway, especially if many times, these are posted on an anonymous message board.
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That's just common sense 101.
If you mod a VAC multiplayer game then your chances to burn your fingers and get a VAC ban are higher.
If you enter a SGTools giveaways not by the link in the main thread/original post but by links on feeds, steam activity or non SG forums then your chances to enter a non legit link are also higher.
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Just wanted to input that I would have been permanently suspended for non-activation from steamgifts if they had a one strike rule. One time I accidentally clicked "add to inventory" instead of "add to library" on a gift that I won.
Your assumption that all rule breakers never learn anything, but just get more adept at it is patently wrong.
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Did you ever consider that you can be wrong?
Those that I personally encountered weren't those that were accidentally wrong or by mistake; they were repeated/serial offenders not only reported by me and also we are not talking about something hypothetical here but were talking about serial cheaters and leakers on SGTools (a third party tool with it's own dev and support).
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Did you ever consider that you can be wrong?
I have done nothing but debated your points with facts from my experience as a support member and rational, composed arguments. If you are just going to devolve this debate into "you are wrong," we are done here. Have a nice day.
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You just think that you've done that and have a nice day too.
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Again and again you say the same thing -
Those SGTools rulebreakers (no calling out you know) that I reported personally to Knsys were also reported by other SG users for the same reason (SGTools gate crashing) and are now permabanned.
Rehabilitation is a nice and posh word but those that I encountered are clearly repeat offenders.
Those that I personally encountered weren't those that were accidentally wrong or by mistake; they were repeated/serial offenders not only reported by me
You're mentioning how every leaker you encountered is a repeat offender.
So what exactly is the problem? Going by Knsys's proposed system, multiple offenders are perma'd, one-time offenders are given a warning. Yet you seem to not like that idea either.
Also, just because every cheater/leaker you've encountered is a repeat offender, doesn't mean that every cheater/leaker will do it again.
And do consider that all those people you caught, repeatly offended before even one suspension. We don't know how many would continue if they were caught once, and knew they'd be caught again, this time with more permanent consequences.
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By giving a permanent ban on the first infraction, you are removing 95% of people who could be successfully rehabilitated just to punish the 5% of true cheaters.
This is reason enough to endorse a second chance for violators.
Edited for clarity
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I am neutral about the matter of discussion here but you seem to be a bit off with your approach towards certain things.
"An ultimate blow for the ones that are found guilty so they won't be able to commit the same crime again" approach has nothing do to with justice, yet being "swift". In fact, this system has been tried by mankind for a really long time, after they finally concluded it is unfair and inefficient. This is the reason you see supreme courts, state prisons and detention centers today.
People learn. They start to learn from the moment they are born. They eventually grasp the concept of right/wrong and act accordingly. Juvenile criminal codes always have lighter punishments because it is always believed that children are yet to learn. For some, the process of learning takes longer. This is where the whole concept of 'rehabilitation' comes out. Idea is simple, really. It is always better to take the risk of a person committing the same crime again, comparing it with the possible outcome of winning a decent person back in the society. Also as it would be easy to trace this person for his second crime and the punishment would be more severe. Though there have always been opposers, claiming that a person breaks the rules because it's in their genes, their 'code' makes them bad and they are flawed human beings. From where I stand, you look like you are among this opposer group, yet there is nothing wrong with that; it is just that this theory is a bit outdated.
Now I am aware that this is a bizarre generalization and the relation between a topic in philoshopy of justice and some random rule-breakers on a game gifting site is rather obscure. I am just stating where you belong with this approach, which I would normally not do on such a smoking hot thread and increase the level of drama, as I am totally dumbfounded with reading what I've read.
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SGTools Permabanning takes the risk of serial cheating and leaking out of the loop and makes 100% sure that cheaters never can cheat the system again; period.
Those that are permabanned on SGTools don't have months and months to make new victims or to cheat the system again and again and again and they aren't getting away with it.
Some SG users really do think that they are entitled to enter any giveaway whatsoever with totally no questions asked.
Some SG users just blatantly disregard and ignore the SGTools disclaimers and notices in the SGTools main threads/original posts and the SGTools individual giveaway posts.
Some SG users just click on any invite only giveaway or SGTools giveaway they see or they just want to enter without checking or taking the time that it's a SGTools link from the main post/original post.
Some SG users really do think as long they can click on the entry button it's totally OK.
Some SG users don't care about any SGTools rules, SGTools giveaway requirements, SG guidelines or FAQ aka all is permitted and OK.
Some SG users don't care about how SG giveaway creators and SGTools giveaway creators want to do their giveaways.
Some SG users make a lot of noise and squeal a lot when they are caught trying to cheat the system and most of them sing out loud that they are (the proverbial) Manuel and that they don't know nothing.
Some SG users disregard totally any requirements that are made with SGTools giveaways.
Some SG users forget all the events, giveaways, invite only giveaways and SGTools giveaways that actually and in reality were botched by cheaters and leakers.
Some SG users are with their words and actions trying to forgive, forget and sweep under the carpet some or all of the above...
I don't...
Leniency against cheaters brings on at the very least the chance that they can cheat again and do all of some of the above again.
To each their own but I have my opinion, you have yours and I'm not budging!
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That would be a good move. IMHO perma for entering via leaked link was going a bit too far (even if I really dislike the 2ch "community" and alikes). We all had "friends" IRL that were ready to do us "favour" of putting us in bad situation just for laughs
Good starting point would be a week since the moment user first seen message about being banned (or to keep it simple, 1month/3monts/perma)
As for leakers/bypassers you have my full support on permabanning them ) Sure there might be false-positives as there is no way to have direct proof of leaking, but knowing this little what I know about Archie I'm sure he's well capable of making leaker-detector giving very high level of confidence (and I hope that only such cases will be banned)
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Leakers itself or people who misuse giveaway feedback to bypass rules will get a permaban since first infraction, as they are the worst kind of infractions you can do against a giveaway creator.
AKA Learn to fucking read.
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go study english. it's about ppl which won ga and next give negative feedback to get next key.
so sgtools is ga or trade site ? because i don;t know now. sgtools is banning for trade troubles-feedback ? wow.
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You sir, are the MOST delusional prick I've ever seen. Let me put you in your rightful place.
-
I hate acting like a grammar Nazi, but your sentences are a disgrace to the English Language, what with the missing/invalid punctuation, prepositions, and lack of awareness on how to frame questions. Take your own advice, and go study English again.
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You were banned because you leaked the link to an SGTools giveaway. Please do us a favor and don't deny it. We have proof to back it up. And the rules above clearly state that LEAKERS WILL BE PERMABANNED ON THEIR FIRST OFFENSE.
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SGTools is neither a GA nor trade site. It's a tool to pick out bad apples such as yourself who break rules and expect to get away with it, and filters them out of the system. But then again, you think it's spyware, so piss off and forget about being unbanned. Run far away from it, keep your giveaways to your stupid fanclub, and stop destroying our brain cells!
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"You were banned because you leaked the link to an SGTools giveaway." I'm still waiting for any evidences for that. For example i can say that you leaked some urls to your friend and should get ban asap.
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This isn't SG. SGtools doesn't operate with the same ToS and requires no feedback. If I was KNSYS I would have banned you for inappropriate conduct for (without evidence, I might add) accusing SGtools of being spyware. :3
If you think you've been banned unfairly, contact KNSYS directly. He handles it all.
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You admitted it yourself mate.
Screengrab before you delete it.
I dare you to give me proof that points to me leaking giveaways. That's right, you won't find any.
Now piss off. My time is important to me.
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your english level is very low. i said above reason of suspension gaven me by staff.
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+1, I got permaban two days ago for entering giveaway three months ago. I don't feel guilty, because it's not intended and I didn't know it was leaked. Yet I feel stupid, because I didn't check it carefully. These changes could help people in situation like mine.
Also I have a question. It is easy to identify the leaker, if the link was given directly through the steam chat, or posted somewhere on sg-related forums. But what about anonymous boards like 4chan? You cannot identify leaker, also you have to be extra cautious, because you can't be sure that the link to giveaway was posted by it's creator.
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If a strike system gets implemented, every ban will be reverted to the correct strike, so you'll be unbanned since 1 week or whatever the final time is would have already past.
As a general rule of thumb, never enter a private giveaway if you don't get it from a legit way (ga creator, puzzle, sgtools)
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I hope you'll leave it as it is.
Also can I just point out that those that opose the permabans are either people you have caught cheating/leaking already, some of their friends and some proverbial Statlers and Waldorfs.
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Also can I just point out that those that opose the permabans are either people you have caught cheating/leaking already, some of their friends and some proverbial Statlers and Waldorfs.
So which am I, LostSoul? Just curious how you equate disagreeing with being a cheater or the friend of a cheater I have no friends who have been banned, nor have I ever broken any rules on SG.
OR -- Maybe I'm just a reasonable person who believes others make mistakes occasionally.
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If you look at the last few pages of this thread you'll see those who I meant and these are on this page also but they have all two things in common and that is that they were all caught by the system and that they all say that they are innocent.
With Stadlers and Waldorfs I meant inflating a non existant event with blackops theories
To date there's no evidence what so ever about the Sasquatch theory (baiting with SGTools to permaban a user on purpose).
Those that would try this could know that they are risking themselves a permaban.
What isn't a theory but reality are the invalid entries during SGTools giveaways or the by cheaters and leakers undermined SG events of users like Melly, Dragomania, Fnord and others.
SGTools serves it purpose as it is and doesn't need to go soft on cheaters and leakers.
I think both the devs know what they are doing and that the chance for collateral damage is minimal and acceptable.
Also SGTools and SGTools giveaways aren't mandatory and afaik no one has ever been forced to use them.
Out of experiences I do believe that cheaters never change they just become more adept cheaters.
To give just one example I wouldn't give the well know and much talked about Soviet cheaters and leakers not two more chances to cheat and leak again.
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Well, with a perma-ban you're assuming no mistakes have been made on the part of four separate parties.
Those parties include not only the giveaway creator and the person entering the leaked link, but also the two admins of SGTools themselves, knsys and just archi (whose responses so far have been "our way is law", which I find particularly dictatorial and unappealing at best). Keep that mind. Four people, four times the chance a mistake could be made somewhere.
Sorry, but I lack the faith you seem to have in those people to be 100% error-free and unbiased in their decision-making process, so I feel that at least a second chance is a necessity. The first time an innocent person is banned (and don't tell me it can't happen, because it certainly can. They can ban anyone at any time, for any reason) then the whole system has failed in its purpose, in my opinion.
My concern isn't the bans themselves -- my concern is the who, what, why, when , and how they're administered. My second lesser concern is asking people to post their appeals on an SG forum thread. Also, how likely is it that someone will be un-banned, when they know full well that will be proof positive that their system isn't flawless? ;)
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As I said before in my unedited post just above yours: I think both the devs know what they are doing and that the chance for collateral damage is minimal and acceptable.
During any triage there's a chance to have some victims but that doesn't mean that the way of triage is bad.
I believe in reality not in blackops theories about people trying to trap others or devs that would sweep things under the carpet and especially after so much user support they do and implementing custom requirements and other requests. For example I asked for VAC ban req and we got it. I asked for game and trade ban reqs and we got them.
I'm not family of Archi and Knsys but your words: " our way is law " is just the reality as SGTools is a third party tool and as they are the devs they can go wherever they want to go (this thread shows that they are user supporting SGTools and are quick on the draw with cheaters and leakers that abuse and misuse their software).
Punishment is swiftly on SGTools and I'm looking now to an evidence filled SG ticket of a scammer that I filed 11 months ago to SG support. And it's even a serial scammer.
Nobody is forcing anyone to use SGTools on Steamgifts. People use SGTools or not for their own reasons. People use the SGTools reqs in the way they want. And lest not forget that there is a choice If one doesn't agree with SGTools vision, guidelines and FAQ one has the option to not participate in SGTools giveaways and to not use SGTools giveaways.
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I think both the devs know what they are doing and that the chance for collateral damage is minimal and acceptable.
During any triage there's a chance to have some victims but that doesn't mean that the way of triage is bad.
This isn't a battlefield, this is a gifting site. Collateral damage? You mean banning innocent users? For the greater good? LOL ... "our way is law" on a gifting site? I can't believe people even support that ideology on a site based on the generosity of others. It's beyond my fathoming that such militaristic steps are taken by two people on a giveaway site at all.
And since this was all posted on the SG forums, it is open for discussion, including disagreement. Obviously, you're entitled to your opinion, and I most certainly disagree with it. Have a pleasant day., ;)
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It's night here but have a pleasant day too. :-)
At least we agree to disagree. ^ ^
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PLEASE DON'T change the current sg tools ban system otherwise you will ALWAYS read here daily
- Please unban me,
- I didn't know it was leaked
- it's unfair,
- but there were no info/description for the ga
- Oh sorry,I got this link from a "good" friend
-
the ga link was posted in a public forum for giveaways
etc..etc..etc..
Many users will abuse your light "strike system" to enter as many as possible giveaways before you finally permaban them.Not worth the trouble !
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Do you also believe everyone on SG should be perma-banned the first time they get suspended here?
I can think of a few of your friends who would be perma-banned already (including one of the admins of SGTools). :)
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Do you also believe everyone on SG should be perma-banned the first time they get suspended here?
depending on the violation,YES ! Misuse of Giveaway Feedback,Scamming Users,Using Multiple Accounts are good examples here at SG for permaban :)
Sgtools has only one simple rule to follow "Don't enter a giveaway with a leaked link !" Should not be too difficult to understand :)
But we both know:Many users don't read/ignore walls of text even if they have valuable information (FAQ,Rules,Guideslines,Ga Description)
I can think of a few of your friends who would be perma-banned already (including one of the admins of SGTools)
you know my friends ? Why do you think we are "friends" ? Just because we use/like/support sgtools ?
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Actually, there are quite a few rules that you have to follow:
1) Don't enter a giveaway with a leaked link
2) Don't leak giveaways
3) Don't try to entrap people to get them banned.
I'm sure there are others I'm missing, but it's clear to me that these 3 infractions are not at the same level of severity.
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Since there is only one admin of sgtools, and that's me, your affirmation is wrong/false.
I've never been banned on steamgifts :)
About that Dragomania, a strike system would be the same but with 2/3 stages, begging for unban would be as useless as now if it isn't followed by a solid proof that the ban was wrongly applied (fun fact, I still have to see a valid unban reason). So it wouldn't be that different from now, just people could redeem himself after one or two mistakes.
Remember that people entering a SGT powered giveaway don't win anything by doing that, they can't win the giveaway so it doesn't really matter if they happen to do it twice instead of one.
And strike system will only be used for leaked entries, not for the leaker itself. Leakers and misuse of giveaway feedback would still be insta permaban!
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Since there is only one admin of sgtools, and that's me, your affirmation is wrong/false.
I was given a false impression then. My statements are based on that. Regardless, one-half of your "team" would already be perma-banned on SG. That was the point I was making. :)
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+1
First strike = Permaban
This is kind of rhetorical Dragomania but would you like that those that cheated/leaked your event/giveaways have two more chances to cheat and leak on you or on other event/giveaway creators?
Because a multiple strike rule = more changes to cheat/leak.
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If the system is implemented and the bans are reverted to strikes system, then what "correct strike" stands for? does everyone who were banned gets 1st strike? or if you joined 2 leaked giveaways after the system would go live, you start off with having 2 strikes?
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For every protected SGTools giveaway bypassed -> 1 strike (a train will count as 1 strike, unless it has several levels of SGTools protections).
So if user X has entered 2 different giveaways with leaked urls, he gets strike 2 -> permaban.
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IMO it's slightly unreasonable, the system is still not giving a permission to become a better person.
I've saw someone got banned 2 days ago for joining a leaked giveaway 3 monthes ago. what if within those 3 monthes he joined another one, without any warning he gets permabanned when the systems is implemented. Instead of giving him a warning and forcing him to become fully awear of the consequences he would be facing if he's sloppy/not carefull enough/or whatever his reasons are..
if you break a law 2 times and the police catches you only after the second time, they don't consider you being a recidivist - they fine you or put you in jail, but don't send directly to electric chair (so fine/jail is like a warning of how badly you can f**k up if continue this path and electric chair is the end of the road - permaban)
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I think having gradation means that those who break rules realize they will get caught and gives them a chance to reform. I think it's a decent idea.
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I have two issues:
A week, even a month, is not sufficient time for a first strike.
I think there should only be one strike.
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I would say permabanning is the only way as I have been 12 years on Steam and I do recall the time where VAC bans were temporary and removable bans but that changed thanks to the cheaters because Valve noticed that those that had their VAC ban lifted that they just began cheating again and permabans are a good way to stop that.
My proposition is to leave everything as it is.
If it's not broken you do not need to fix it.
The three strike proposal is much to soft and leniant.
Cheaters never change they just come more adept in cheating.
Also don't forget that most SGTools giveaways do have a SGTools disclaimer.
First strike = Permaban
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sgtools giving pernament bans for nothing, without any evidences. prepare tomorrow for pernament ban because you disagree with staff.
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If you play with fire chances are that you will get you're fingers burned.
But look at the bright side: you're descendants will get to use SGTools eventually as a SGTools permaban only last for about 3K years.
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they have silly rules and want sgtools for only closed group. next trolls will publish leaked links for example other steam groups and many ppl will be banned with reasons like "you are not alon" thread
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ppl will be banned with reasons like "you are not alon" thread
I don't follow, what's that thread got to do with this?
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here is "you are not alone" thread where many ppl share private ga. one troll will show sgtool link and many ppl wil get pernament vacations :)
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"Hi KnSYS, the giveaway creator shared the giveaway link directly in this post: [post link here] Can you investigate this?"
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they banned me with reason "leaking links" because one of my steam friends joined private ga. how they know allegedly that i gave him url ? neved seen any evidences.
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Sorry but I don't have the time to find your comment and you probably deleted it anyways
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how does banning people from sgt help the community?
because for me it does the opposite. it only adds drama on the forums.
look at this thread, it's quickly turning into call-out/blacklist headquarters.
the only thing sgtools needed was a way to check if entries were legit. it should be up to the GA creator if he wants to blacklist those users, but denying entry to all the other giveaways is an extreme measure.
and no, not everyone who enters a leaked GA does it with malicious intents like bypassing checks, that person can be naive or just distracted. so we are just going with the policy of burning a few innocent guys because we got a lot of cheaters, like it's worth the sacrifice.
i still think there's no need to ban people, at all.
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Or even better solution: additional options on SGTools like "No SGT ban". It lowers the drama even if the person can't join GA because it feels like separate case, not like you're banned from all SGT-protected GAs.
EDIT: I don't know how often this option will be used (it can be checked by default, but with possibility to uncheck), but it definitely gives more freedom and should be compatible with your comment.
EDIT2: Just a suggestion after reading MuIIins comment.
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100% in agreement with everything you've said.
If it were up to me, SGTools would be gone altogether at this point, with the exception of the tools to check your winners.
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I checked GAs that I have made yesterday (open until 25th of March) and they all have status "closed". Should it look like this?
Or is it just unimportant bug in checking date of GA ending?
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I get that pretty often. They tend to show up as closed about one minute after I created them.
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That's because giveaway it's still not open, so steamgifts displays the opening time in the same manner as closing time
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Would it be at all feasible to add filters for owning/not owning certain games to giveaways? AS an example I've just created a giveaway for the third Van Helsing game and it would have been nice for it too have gone to someone who at least owns the first two especially as the winner could then claim their free copy of the Final Cut. Going the other way if I wanted to create a giveaway for an all time classic/favourite it would be nice to be able to restrict entries and introduce the franchise to someone new.
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knsys, You may want to temporarily add Days of Custody to the whitelist (see: http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/zUdmm/days-under-custody-from-indiegala-bundle-revoked)
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Added to whitelist, at least temporarily, thanks for the report!
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Although I checked myself and this game is in whitelist, I still got this: "Your account is flagged as having some unactivated Wins or your profile is Private."
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Days Under Custody bought from bundle has been removed by steam, and a red letter.
If you happen to won this game before, now you got "Games wins not activated" on SGTools...
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After reading everyone's opinion on the banning matter, I think that more or less everyone have spoken. Heavy giveaway creators mostly wants permabans right away, while the majority of people prefer a strike system.
Since invalid entries (aka used a leaked link) can't even actually win the game, I think a 2 strike system is a nice equilibrium between both sides. It'll still be severe, but it will allow a mistake to be done without triggering a permaban.
My idea right now is the following:
- First strike - 1 month ban
- Second strike - permaban
That strike system will only affect leaked entries, people who leak the giveaway urls to others and people misusing giveaway feedback will still be insta-permabanned.
To support the new strike system, I'm thinking of having a special landing in the giveaway section, where you input a private steamgifts giveaway url and it will tell you if it's SGT protected or not. It won't tell anything more, so no SGT link will be given or anything, just a TRUE or a FALSE.
This way people would feel more confident with private giveaways without fearing a ban :)
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1 month for 1st strike its too much.
In my opinion, this looks better:
First strike - 1 week
Second strke - 2 months
Third strike - permaban.
But anyway, for fair bans giveaways with SGT protection must have a notification on steamgifts. Otherwise all those changes is not make sense. And private giveaways still will be not safe. Everybody can edit description at any time, so I can create giveaway protected by SGT and after the end of giveaway add a notification.
SGT should be integrated to steamgifts. Otherwise - no bans, just add a user to blacklist on steamgifts and that`s all.
And a special landing in the giveaway section will not really help. Not everybody is reading forum and exactly this topic. So not everybody knows about it.
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ะ ะฑะฐััะถะธัั ะบะปััะฐะผะธ ะพั ัะฐะทัะฐะฑะพะฒ ะะ ะ ะะะะะะะ ั ะพัะพัะฐั ะธะดะตั?)
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1 month for 1st strike its too much.
Nope,no light bans like steamgifts,please ! One month minimum (first strike),second strike = permaban ! (as suggested by knsys)
But anyway, for fair bans giveaways with SGT protection must have a notification on steamgifts. Otherwise all those changes is not make sense. And private giveaways still will be not safe.
Knsys has no direct influence on steamgifts.A "notification on steamgifts" will not work without a cooperation with cg.By the way:Did you found any information/Statement from cg about sgtools ?
Everybody can edit description at any time, so I can create giveaway protected by SGT and after the end of giveaway add a notification.
This applies also to steamgifts only giveaways.I change the description (later) and add an information that you didn't know before.
SGT should be integrated to steamgifts. Otherwise - no bans, just add a user to blacklist on steamgifts and that`s all.
again,this implies a cooperation with cg. I don't think this will ever happen and YES,temporary bans please,if someone ignore/bypass/cheat a sgtools check.
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Then why the unofficial system may cause inconvenience to the site using?
SGT is really popular right now, so I think this is time to cooperation between knsys and cg. Especially after this drama about bans.
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a) typical cheaters/busted users complain here about the system how sgtools works :)
b) dramas common here (not only related to SG tools)
c) lack of features/options for "original" Steamgifts giveaways
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Imho this drama is artificially made and is inflated and fuelled by some that would like to set SGTools to their wishes aka by those that have a hidden agenda and of course by those that are already permabanned because they leaked and or have cheated the SGTools system.
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Good decision :-)
Permaban is too harsh and 2 strike is enough too catch the leakers.
And what about new giveaway flag !haven't used leaked giveaway links!?
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suspensions and permaban still unnecessary imo, but whatever...
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Hi knsys,
is it possible to generate the sgtools URL in realtime for giveaway descriptions ? Maybe a extended version of the "SGTools giveaway creator helper" Userscript ? A additional line of text (including the sgtools url) will be added to the ga description.Something like "This is a sgtools protected giveaway.Click here (sgtools URL) to start the check.
So,even if someone entered a giveaway with a leaked link he/she can start the "test" without knowing the original source or the relevant post in (whatever) forum before he/she hit the ENTER button.
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Even if it was technically feasible, I do not think I would want everyone who entered the giveaway without going through the proper channels to automatically have a link to SGT gate for that giveaway.
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Are you sure ?
-hopefully less drama about bans/suspensions (unfair,too harsh,sgtools:what's that,didn't know bla bla bla...)
-no more (valid) excuses like "I didn't know it was leaked/a sg tools protected giveaway"
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If they did not find the correct doorway to get to the giveaway on thier own, be it in a forum, private group, puzzle, or even just public, why would I want to give them a shortcut to it?
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...to prevent what I have previously written (complaints about sgtools/how it works)
a) no more excuses (didnt' know,leaked link ? etc..etc..)
b) no more (unnecessary) Threads "Banned ? Why ?,I didn't know,not fair etc...)
Not everyone use Steamgifts as "number 1" source for their giveaway links....
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But if the giveaway is hidden in a puzzle or in a private forum or otherwise not generally available to the selfish lazy, then they would have a link directly to the url. What would be the point in ever hiding a link then? Bad guys would just check every private GA and go to the SGT gateway to try to get in, even though they should never have had access to the gateway.
Basically, this would be setting up a way to leak the SGT gateway link for each giveaway.
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a ) you only got the sgtools url not the original link.How could that be a leak ? Maybe i misunderstood you?
Possible solution for you (or puzzle fans)
-add "View Sgtools URL in the giveaway description" as option for the ga creator.So it's up to you (the ga creator) to use this feature (or not).
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"Only" the sgtools url? That is the one they shouldn't get for free! They can't win because they cheated their way directly to the giveaway url and didn't use the sgtools gateway, now you want to give it to them? So they can go and try to enter it legitimately? Why should they get that luxury? How is that fair? It punishes everyone but the cheater to give it to them like that.
Anything should be up to the giveaway creator.
My point is that it makes no sense to stop the intruders from entering your house at the back porch only to show them the path around to ring the front bell!
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It's an interesting idea, and, surprisingly for me, it comes from the fan of permaban =)
As for me, adding a warning to description would be enough. As AJIam said, not everyone will like if people find private giveaway by the leaked link. But adding such option may be worth considering.
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It's an interesting idea, and, surprisingly for me, it comes from the fan of permaban =)
I take this as a compliment because.....
As for me, adding a warning to description would be enough. As AJIam said, not everyone will like if people find private giveaway by the leaked link. But adding such option may be worth considering.
...you deserve the (perma)ban,because you have done exactly THIS ! How should only a warning message (without a ban) STOP YOU doing the same again ? Greetings to your "friends" from 2ch !
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If a giveaway has warning, you may be sure that all who enter without sgtools check is aware of this and if they still enter the giveaway - they should be banned. If I understand correctly - what you propose is giving this people opportunity to go through sgtools check and legitimately enter the giveaway, even if they found it by leaked link. As I said, not everyone find this concept appealing.
As for the second part - I'm not going to make up excuses, from my experience it doesn't help one bit. I know better what I've done exactly, and I understand how do you feel, why you don't trust people like me and reasons of being angry. It's almost impossible to convince somebody here, so I'd better leave you to your thoughts and save my nerves.=_=
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I'm sorry to hear that Knsys because:
1 strike = permaban = NO chance to cheat again.
2 strikes = 1 MORE chance to cheat again
I just hope you're not bullied to this by a few very vocal users that don't use SGTools a lot but like to enter SGTools protected giveaways a lot...
Also know that some of the pitchfork users in this thread are those that have recently been permabanned because they cheated the system.
But I'm glad that the leakers and feedback abusers will get an immediate permaban.
Hopefully this new lenient two strikes measure will not be done retroactively?
Also is there an ETA for the cheaters and leakers blacklist script?
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Cool, it's way better than one strike permaban :D
And "is this GA SGtools protected tool" is really good idea, that way I won't have to worry in small events, like the one that Fnord made some time ago if I will get permabanned when wanting to participate in something like this.
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Lol SGTools
Man, I'm so cool, I've got a bunch of bundle PARASHA's for you, man, got it? But you need to be f*kken saint, you know, to take a chance of winning?
Huh? You make REGION-RESTRICTED CIS SCUM GA's, oh man, and privates, oh the privates, or THE GROUPS, it hurts my eyes man, YOU BETRAYED US AS A COMMUNITY, you will NEVER take a chance to win my bundle PARASHA, you idiot
slaps his face by the ALMIGHTY SGTools dildo-bat
misses and hits his own head, but whatever...
SGTools FTW, permaban, cock-a-doodle-doo, you should give ten times more than win, IN MONEY EQUIVALENT
This is the community I'm proud of!
It's okay to ruin the basics
I'm DA BEST anyway, you s*ck
complete bollocks?
say it
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I'll assume that nonsense wall of text is a way to ask why you were banned.
You were banned for entering a Victor Vran ARPG protected giveaway with a leaked giveaway.
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Banned? Sorry man. but I don't touch sgtools GA's, they stink. And actually, you couldn't ban somebody just for entering GA's, SGTools or not, if I see 5 Symbols Of Wisdom and there is a green button I have ALL the rights to click this button, it is your problem, not mine that it was leaked or whatever else, after what I've got the code in my sight. You could tell me in private that I don't belong one giveaway or another and I leave it, but I'm not obliged to check all giveaways by myself are they for me or not. I repeat - your leaks aren't my problems. Try to catch leakers, try to be polite with invalid entries to make them exit and don't poke permabans in our eyes, it's pathetic.
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you couldn't ban somebody just for entering GA's, SGTools or not
I thought you would have read the guidelines by now.
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I read some guidelines in the past, they were pretty questionable. Not that I'm willing to question them, not on this planet, just saying.
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I don't touch sgtools GA's, they stink.
Yeah, your last try to enter a SGTools protected giveaway is 2016-03-16 :3
if I see 5 Symbols Of Wisdom and there is a green button I have ALL the rights to click this button
No, you don't. It doesn't matter if that giveaway is SGTools protected or not, you are not allowed to enter a leaked giveaway
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your last try to enter a SGTools protected giveaway
last try
Pretty much the last of no more than ten and I never wanted to actually enter, just to check out the system, once I couldn't exit because pre-orders count as non-activated, and all the other tries I didn't even see the results because loading was stuck.
you are not allowed to enter a leaked giveaway
You don't understand one thing, let me explain, I couldn't know if the giveaway leaked or not, because I see them in anonymous imageboard, I don't get them from a person who leaked it in my PM, how could I know, maybe a creator of GA came into the thread and "lost" some links, maybe even on purpose to frame a group of russians, whom so many people here hate so much. nothing could be proven anyway.. You could say "Ignorance does not release from the responsibility.", but GA's are not the law, you could know the law, but you couldn't know where is from some private GA posted on AIB with a comment like "Enjoy" and nothing else. It's a presumption of innocence in action, not a presumption of guilt you trying to implement.
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Happy cake day my lord. May your coming year be without capitalists spyware.
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Thanks to sgtools i (also) have won
"Banned You were caught trying to cheat the system or entering a sgtools protected giveaway without permission."
..more information would be helpfull for me - i passed SGTools on a lot of Giveaways, so i'm not sure where it should not have worked. I even won a protected Gift, after jigsaw-puzzling for close to 4 hours, so i understand why such an "effort" (completing a puzzle after 3hrs ..yes, i'm THAT bad :-) ) should be "protected" in some way.
But how can i ACTIVELY block the entering of Giveaways protected by SGTools?
I'm one of those guys clicking on every train ...but reading the same text on the 55th wagon? Could the 56th link be a SGTools-protected Link?
I just want to have fun entering giveaway and playing games ...entering a protected SG should simply not be possible... and i'm still able to do this! ..this hurts my brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68GeL8PafE
In this state your Tool may somehow break the "no shoutout rule". By using a blacklist or list of banned peole, you would clearly breaking this rule.
In general:
More information about "banned" would be helpfull: How long, why (exactly), by whom?
...it all reminds me of good ol Witch-Trials:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
(be careful, i googled for the Video - not sure what rules might have been attached).
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You were banned for entering a 12 Labours of Hercules sgtools protected giveaway without getting the url from sgtools (aka with a leaked url).
You will notice if a giveaway is SGTools protected, since you'll have to go to SGTools site to get the url, it won't ever be another wagon that you can enter without noticing.
My tool doesn't break "no calling out rule", where do you see that? Apart that the rule in question is only valid inside steamgifts.
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First: i'm banned - i'm okay with that. Your rules ..fine.
But:
I respected the Steam/Steamgift-Rules:
No entries for Bundles with games i own (even if stated otherwise in giveaway), no multiple wins everything activated, gave away all keys - and will continue giving away, perfect trade-feedback, no shoutouts, no swearing, never VAC-banned, no VAC-banned friends, no problems on TF2-trade or steamrep-sites.
..no cheating or being offensive against someone on SG- or Steam-Community.
Being banned by SGTools is a surprise for me!
By enterening SteamGifts-Tool Website, it appears (to me), this site is PART of Steamgifts. The design/links when logged in.
Beeing logged into SGTools, it appeared to me as i will get a notice when doing something wrong ...cause the webpage states, the giveaways are "protected"! On the starting-page you can even read "Steamgifts offical page"!
Opening a leaked url, there is no warning, the green "Entering now"-button is not the final sign, everything is ok ("Green").
By appearing like being part of Steamgifts (Color/Layout/Icons..) i never was worried, the green button could not be "protected".
When entering a lvl5-Gift als Lvl2-User: it will not open - cause it's protected!
So your script-site offers a new layer, invisible to the user. I am still able to click the green button on sites "protected" by your Website.
The only moment the user can recognize, there's something wrong - it's the moment he/she is banned ...permanently.
The only criterias, the user can check are "not activated" and "multiple wins"... and somewhere the notice of being banned - without any further information... AFTER the user entered a giveaway FOUR WEEKS ago... why not instantly - THAT would help!
On your Website, you state, the Giveaways are "protected" with rules and checks.
Simply: No! They are not protected in Steamgifts! It is possible for a user, clicking on "Entering now" - there is simply no protection against that.
A simple "am i allowed to participate"-Button would help. A warning, when entering the next giveaway ("you have done bad things")... or finaly the only real protection: No "Entering now" is showing up!
I simply don not want to ruin my steamrep or something like that by some tacked-on Script-Page and i don't want Steamgifts getting any trouble cause of your Website.
Creating, using or rreleasing a list with my name and calling me a cheater - THAT IS a shoutout. It's not my goal beeing rude to you ... the script is a lot of work. But don't make simple things so complicated - or make them easier!
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That is a huge wall of text, let's go one by one
- Steamgifts rules applies to steamgifts, and it's good that you follow them, otherwise you'd have been banned on steamgifts.
- SGTools is not part of Steamgifts. The button that says "Steamgifts Official Page" redirects you to Steamgifts...
- There is no sign, because steamgifts knows nothing about the giveaway, it's just another regular private giveaway for the site.
- Time depends on giveaway creator, some report invalid entries right now, some do that later.
- See part 2 and 3
- You won't get flagged on steamrep for being banned on SGTools.
- Where do you see that list?
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Please don't think i want to get on your nerves with my excessive typing. I just want to make clear, that i'm very careful in clicking on Links and why your site "lured" me into thinking everything is ok ...in short: it's not foolproof! :-)
Reading through two threads to understand what SGTools is - i really think you have to make SGTools more "cheackable" and can improve your script for beeing more userfriendly (a.k.a. foolproof :-) )
-
I pointed that out, cause these obvious rules are the only ones your site is listing (Rules Checker) - the ban results from a side the user can not check.
-
The Button, positioned at the same place my account-button on Steamgift sits, states "Steamgifts offical site" - yes. There is no indication, SGTools is not part of Steamgifts ...viewing from my "foolprove-angle". The SGTools-Site has no information about it's owner, private policy etc. Only after checking the url by Whois/Icann i can differentiate between Steamgifts and SGTools.
I don't write that you try someone into thinking SGTools is part of Steamgifts - but for me it was only obvious when it was "to late".
For me, the SGTools-Login showed something like "i'm ok", so i can enter all Steamgifts, that were "protected" by SGTools. Using a leaked url ... i simply never thought of such problems, cause i was verified and therefor "protected" by SGTools.
When reading the discussions and clicking a SGTools-protected link "...okay, that was one of those..". When finding a link without text ... no problem, i'm logged into SGTools. When reading the text in the descriptions "...no problem, i'm logged into SGTools, the mentioned starting page is ok, cause i get no warning and can press the green "Enter Giveaway" button."
This Thread wouldn't have >1600 comments, if the users could see, that they are doing something wrong. -
(ref. to7) The List: you are using it (it's needed to make SGTools work) and -more important- according to your repot-center-site:
http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/gPf5h/tool-steamgifts-tools-report-center
Q: Is the list of banned people available?
A: Not yet, although it's planned to make that info available for everyone soon.
and
"...Lastly, list of cheaters is planned to be public in future (together with blacklist userscript)..."
and information from that thread:
http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/gPf5h/tool-steamgifts-tools-report-center/search?page=2#zwB8K92
a) KnSYS believes that list of cheaters should be available to general public, I'm not here to make the decision.
(quote from JustArchi, 2 days old)
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- If the whole purpose of giveaway part is to hide an url, it's quite obvious that if you gave away that url or you enter a giveaway from an url that someone passed you, you are breaking the rules. As I repeated thousands of times, if you get a private giveaway url from anyone other than the giveaway creator, most probably is a leaked url and you are not welcome to enter.
- SGTools footer has all the info you need, including me as an author with a direct link to my steamgifts profile and a link to this very thread. If you use a leaked URL, you are not verified by sgtools, if you were, you'd have the url directly from sgtools not from a 3rd party (person or other forums).
- You quote what interest you most, that has been clarified at least two times on this same thread, you can go check it yourself.
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Informations to your public blacklist (and my opinion it's "shoutout") - i think the most official it's in your Report-Center-FAQ and therefor still in the making/planning.
Mysterious people "gave away" secret link? No... Reading discussions or comments on giveaways, clicking those links i thought SGTools would prevent me from reaching... My fault! Beeing banned - that's ok!
But please improve your site for others! Like i said: It is not possible to check, if a link was leaked. You really should improve this! It would decrease the massive list of people you refer as cheaters.
Beeing logged into SGTools, the description gave me the impression this tool is checking the Links i've clicked - my fault, but that's how i understood SGTools would work - mostly by it's apperance and description.
The footer, yes: When opening SGTools.info, the only link to the author of this site leads me to your profile. And only there i can find the legal/privacy/service-stuff by scrolling down - to those of Steamgifts.
Please: I don't want to bug you - but not showing the correct ownership has more problems than someone not understanding (Foolproof.. the fool, that's me - i still understand, that I made a mistake by entering a giveaway) how the site works and searches for that info.
The site is earning money by ads and/or donating. It's therefor making money of steamkeys (in a veeeeeery far way, but still it is present) - something that's forbidden by Steam/Valve.
By appearing in Steamgifts-WebDesign, there may even be the danger for Steamgifts, getting in trouble with Valve - i don't think, they have control over the ads you are showing.
I'm not interested in any legal matters, i'm sure you're not interested in tricking someone! I'm just pointing at some problems.
Like i said: on sgtools.info starting-page you can read "Steamgifts offical page"! The only privacy-links i can find without whois-search are the ones by Steamgifts - that's why i thought SGTools is part of Steamgifts and should work much smoother.
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Refer to my past replies to you, it has all been answered there.
The site is earning money by ads and/or donating. It's therefor making money of steamkeys (in a veeeeeery far way, but still it is present) - something that's forbidden by Steam/Valve.
You have a very twisted (and flawed) logic there.
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"Refer to my past replies to you, it's has all been answered there."
You ignored my question about the publication of your blacklist. Refering to the only source i can find: You will make it public and therefor make a massive "shoutout": The only privacy politics someone can find are the one beeing backtracked from SGTools to Steamgifts.
You ignored my question if it's possible to let SGTools be better diffenciated from Steamgifts.
So i think you are happy with the impression it makes to the user, even if there are others having the same problem ... look for the comment right under this one. "You have to synchronize on SGTools, not on steamgifts"
By calling me a cheater with a very Twisted and flawed logic?
I will still not insult others and just state my wish: "Please consider my thoughts, they will help you improve SGTools"
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- Since you are too lazy to search, I'll put you a direct link.
- Nobody except you thinks that SGT and SG are the same site, maybe is your problem?
- Twisted logic? You entered a protected giveaway with a leaked url, it's really easy to understand.
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Thank you, i really couldn't find that piece of information - somebody should update your FAQ in and/or firstpost in this thread. Now i know your definition of Cheater.
AND the message i received from SGTools, calling me a cheater, so you should really clarify this somewhere: "...You were caught trying to cheat the system..."
Aside from that, you want to publish a list with cheaters. Using a usercript with data from Steamgifts and ignoring theri privacy policies? ...i fear for you, that's still "shouting out"
SGTools does nothing for the user to be PROTECTED against leaked URLs! It could help the user to simply clarify the correctness of its entries - SGTools would benefit from this!
If i would have get a notice "..you entered incorrectly", i could have given you the link where i found this leaked url - or could have warned others!
But it really seems, it just want to fill a list and calling thousand of people "cheater".
It's sad, reading through your reports-thread and getting the impression, there are bragging-rights for the biggest blacklist or ban-job.
The only link to communicate is leading to this thread on Steamgifts.com or your Profile on Steamgifts.com. I already mentiond your "Steamgifts Offical Page"-Button. "Steamgifts tool by Steamgiftsv2" is also not a big hint, this site is not connected to Steamgift.com and ist policies. I hope you asked Steamgifts about the use of their visual design - a design you are mirroring and even mention this in your Changelog:
"1. New design for the website, using steamgifts default theme as reference, since we all are used to i"
This is a complete lack of thouroughness from your side! Again: i do not insinuating you're phishing, spoofing or something like that! But ignoring the hints from this thread, cause it's easier for you to maintain your list, designing your webpage or programming your script, may (and surely has) lead others in the same problems and directions.
As you are building your OWN list of data from Steamgifts-Users, you should clarify that to the users and hopefully you have asked Steamgifts how to use those data, mainly the part you want to "shoutout" cheaters - whatever definition and filtter you will use.
Please do not underestimate the carefulness you should use towards your users - you run into the problem, where you overestimate the practicability and quality of your attempt, to offer protected giveaways.
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hi
in these last two days i can't enter sgtools giveaways because i'm flagged for unactivated wins or private profile.
my profile is not private and if i put my username in the rules checker it says i'm oki
in the other posts i read it can depend on the steam server that was down yesterday ..but i've still the problem even if i syncronize
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Any idea how long I will be banned on SGtool ? ;)
One more think, if there is a plugin for the browser that would show me the info on whether a particular GA is protected by sgtools?
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Right now, permabanned.
When strike system kicks in, depends on the number of your infractions.
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How I know about number of my infractions ?
If I entered to GA train by SGtools, and now I banned all this GAs will count ?
One more think, if there is a plugin for the browser that would show me the info on whether a particular GA is protected by sgtools?
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Does the strike system count infractions after the ban only?
Let's say if someone entered 2+ times leaked GAs and then got banned, will that person have 2nd chance after the strike system implements?
I believe that most people learned their lessons from their faults, maybe with punishments, and they have 2nd chance to be good.
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One more think, if there is a plugin for the browser that would show me the info on whether a particular GA is protected by sgtools?
This should be unnecessary since it is against Steam Gifts rules to enter any private giveaway without getting the link to it from the legitimate source.
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So you're okay with being perma-banned the first time you're suspended from here?
Good to know :)
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No way, man, you think people should be banned for first time offenses. That includes you, right?
That's what you've said about SGTools, so hey ... let's push CG to apply it here on SG as well. That way, when you screw up and get perma-banned for a first offense, you can just say "well ... I deserve it because I felt this is fair."
By the way, most everything one reads is read in the mind, so yeah, not really sure where you were going with that. ;)
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I was speaking about SGTools and you yourself added the SG permabanning part that's what I meant with the mind part but sometimes it sucks to be a non native English user. :-)
WIth SGTools you can only have a few infractions: cheating to join a SGTools giveaway, leaking a SGTools giveaway and abusing the SG trade feedback system while with SG there are more infractions, minor infractions ( for example calling out) and major infractions ( for example re-gifting, SG trade scamming). Last I counted there were 19 types of SG infractions.
http://www.steamgifts.com/roles/moderator
SGTools is a third party site and as such the owner of SGTools can enforce infractions anyway he wants and make his own guidelines separate from SG guidelines.
And with all third party software nobody is forcing anyone to like and use this software.
If one doesn't like it there's the fully open option to not make and/or enter SGTools giveaways.
It's as plain easy as that.
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None of the rules on SGTools -- none of them -- are punishable by a perma-ban for a first time offense on SG. Period.
Your entire argument is "don't like sgtools and its rules, then don't use it."
One could just as easily say "don't like SG and it's rules, don't use it."
Funny how that works, isn't it? :)
Had to make that a bit clearer, since it was obvious you missed my point earlier. ;)
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Your entire argument is "don't like sgtools and its rules, then don't use it."
One could just as easily say "don't like SG and it's rules, don't use it."
Isn't it how everything works? You're not entitled to any service, be it SGT, SG, Steam or anything else. Those are all websites run by inviduals or companies, and they can reject access to anybody they want, for a reason, or for no reason. If you don't agree with Steam ToS you do not run to GabeN and blame him, you just do not use the service. Likewise, here.
You can discuss potential problems and suggest solutions, but whatever you do, the point stays - you do not agree with ToS, you do not use the service. Nothing gets changed here.
If you want to hear my stance on the discussed problem, then it's simple: perma-ban for leakers and people abusing the system by changing giveaways feedback. For joining leaked giveaways - 2 weeks on first infraction, then perma. And this is only because you can in fact join the leaked giveaway non-intentionally, while leaking and cheating is fully intentional.
I'm not the one who decides the length of the suspension though.
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Isn't it how everything works?
Most definitely.
By your own logic, if you don't like the rules or support on SG, you should just leave, right? But no, you now have a way to circumvent those rules and SG support and make your own (not yours specifically), yet still host all those giveaways on this site.
I find everything you've said quite ironic, especially considering things you've said in the past about SG support and the rules here. ;)
If you took your own advice, you wouldn't be here, Yet here you are, day in and day out, same as me. :)
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By your own logic, if you don't like the rules or support on SG, you should just leave, right?
Liking and respecting rules are two totally different things, and usually (nearly always) you do not like the rules you're respecting.
I find everything you've said quite ironic, especially considering things you've said in the past about SG support and the rules here.
And this is exactly what I said above - I don't like all the rules that SG is following, yet if I want to continue using the service, I need to respect them.
Nothing really changes here. I can't see how I'm being ironic in my previous post.
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I don't like all the rules that SG is following
But you're not respecting them, you're circumventing them -- there's a difference there. You don't feel the rules are strict enough on SG and so you've made your own (again, not you in particular, but rather the "team" at sgtools).
Respecting them isn't going around them to make your own -- respecting them is abiding by them as they are, whether you like them or not, just as much as disrespecting them isn't just breaking them. You're expecting that of people using SGTools when you don't follow that "philosophy" yourself here on SG.
If you don't agree with Steam ToS you do not run to GabeN and blame him, you just do not use the service
Irony. Do you really fail to see that? If you don't agree with the rules and support staff here, then don't use the service. Your words, not mine. ;)
EDIT: By the way, there are a lot more people that feel the same as I do about the perma-bans, but fear speaking up because they don't want to risk a ban. I've spoken to many on Steam and also here on SG already who feel the same. I'm just the (extremely) vocal minority, and since I don't fear a ban (since I'm not particularly here to win a load of games or anything), I also don't fear speaking my mind. :)
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You don't feel the rules are strict enough on SG and so you've made your own
Creating SGT is not against SG rules, same as creating puzzle behind itstoohard is not either. If cg put proper note in SG ToS about such thing, then it would need to be respected and we could further discuss that case.
Respecting them isn't going around them to make your own -- respecting them is abiding by them as they are
Totally wrong. If somebody says that during the rain everybody has to be outside, it doesn't prohibit them from being outside using an umbrella, or being outside covered by some roof. Ever heard of Michaล Drzymaลa?
EDIT: By the way, there are a lot more people that feel the same as I do about the perma-bans, but fear speaking up because they don't want to risk a ban. I've spoken to many on Steam and also here on SG already who feel the same. I'm just the (extremely) vocal minority, and since I don't fear a ban (since I'm not particularly here to win a load of games or anything), I also don't fear speaking my mind. :)
Nobody got ban for being innocent, every ban which came from my hand is associated with giveawayID that was leaked. That info is available for both me and KnSYS, and every user asking for the reason can get it anytime, which happens on usual basis as you can see on previous pages.
Besides, you confuse two particular things. I'm not making SGT rules, I'm taking reports and making sure that those rules are respected. This is similar relationship to SG. cg = KnSYS, TempeteJoachim = me. I could take active part in SGT if I wanted, but I don't want to, it's KnSYS's tool, and he's the one who sets the rules, I'm only helping him. So we can discuss that however long you want, but even convincing me to your opinion would not change anything, because I'm not the one who decides here.
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I never said SGTools was against SG rules, I said it was made to circumvent SG rules and support staff, to enforce your own rules (and I will say this again - I don't mean you particularly, I am talking about the team at SGTools) because you don't feel the rules at SG work and you disagree with them. That's not respecting them, that's going around them to make your own (see note above concerning the word "your" sigh).
Nobody got a ban for being innocent."
Yet, and only going by your word and knys'. None of those people banned for entering a leaked giveaway on SGTools are banned on SG, are they? There's a reason for that. People can change and redeem themselves, which is why I am against perma-bans on SGTools. There are already rules and punishments in place on SG to handle any situation that arises with an SGTools giveaway. Perma-bans are unnecessary and overkill, and I've made abundantly clear several times why I believe so (and again above, in fact).
Totally wrong (snip)
A more apt analogy would be -- No one is handing you an umbrella or your car keys here at SG while making you stand out in the rain, so you've giving yourself that option with SGTools because you don't feel like you should have to stand in the rain and you disagree with that "rule" (and support staff here) (again, "you" reference, see above note).
Also -- I have already witnessed firsthand several instances of SG users being "called out" on threads here on SG because of SGTools (and at least one in this particular thread), which is a big no-no -- not only breaking them, but disrespecting them at the same time. Your "team" may wish to reconsider how they handle those situations.
Lastly, I'm not confusing anything - I said several times what I mean when using the words "you" and "your", and did in my previous comment as well. If you want to reply to me as a representative of SGTools, then expect me to reply to you as though you are one, the same way you hold support staff here responsible for enforcing CG's rules (again, your words, you're the "TempeteJoachim" of SGTools, after all). ;)
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The difference is that I never said that I don't like SG.
I have problems with some parts of SG but I deal with it by for example using SGTools. :-)
There's nothing wrong with permabanning cheaters and leakers on SGTools, period.
And yes if I personally don't like some software I don't use it.
You have your opinion and I have mine and most probably neither of us will be budging soon. :-)
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The difference is that I never said that I don't like SG.
You've clearly said you don't like the rules on SG.
I've clearly said I don't like the rules on SGTools.
What's the difference? ;)
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The difference is that SGTools is a third party software that doesn't have to follow SG guidelines and that isn't moderated by SG support. :-)
I don't like some SG rules yes mostly those that ensure from the moment you make a ticket until the time SG support has the time to react that the time between those two points is the time that major SG rules infractors are fully getting away with it and can make more victims. My scammer made atleast after me 2 more victims, in the very same way, that I know of and several scam attempts that I know of but those are probably just the tip of the iceberg.
With SGTools permabanning there's no chance to make serial infractions and that there's no chance that multiple giveaways creators can fall victim to the same infractor. I have had SG giveaway winners that like were collecting SG suspensions. I've read on that link that I posted a few posts above that SG trade scamming and feedback abuse (I even had 6 neg rep one morning without trading with those 6 users) results in a permanent suspension. That sounds good on paper as they are major infractions but it takes far to long to enforce. And the bad thing is that some offenders know that they have time to make other victims and that they have time to get away with their offences.
I can but wonder what users like Melly, Dragomania, Eeev, Fnord and others would say or think about SGTools permabanning, SG suspensions and giving more chances to those that botched their community events, SG giveaways and SGTools giveaways..
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With SGTools permabanning there's no chance to make serial infractions and that there's no chance that multiple giveaways creators can fall victim to the same infractor.
You forgot "no chance for redemption."
You seem to forget how many amazing contributors we have on this site now who have broken a rule or two in the past. I could name a dozen off the top of my head right now, most are level 10, and all are highly respected in this community.
They'd all be perma-banned right now if we had to live with your philosophy. ;)
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You seem to forget all those that are permabanned and didn't break any major rules or spoiled any events or giveaways ever again!
Yes there are a few of those you mention but don't forget that there are far more SG users that didn't break any rules and that do contribute also. You can have a level 0 and a level 10 and both can and contribute. And on SG you have minor infractions and major infractions. The petty calling out rule is one thing while re-gifting and SG trade scamming are other much more serious things.
I'm happy that I don't have to live under your philosophy where major infractors would get away with it and have more chances on a platter to do serial offences again and make even more victims. Under your philosophy these major infractors become the victims. :-)
Also I'm happy that SGTools will keep on permabanning the leakers and feedback abusers out right. While the SGTools cheaters also will be permabanned with only 1 chance on " redemption ". :-)
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Yes there are a few of those you mention but don't forget that there are far more SG users that didn't break any rules and that do contribute also
Proof? Evidence? Anything? Or just speculation? Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
The petty calling out rule is one thing while re-gifting and SG trade scamming are other much more serious things.
Certain rules are "petty" and some aren't, huh? Which ones and who decided this? You? Is it only the rules you break? Your friends? Hahaha. Good to know how you really feel about rule-breaking, and you probably don't realize this, but you've more proven my case than disproven it with that remark. ;)
Under your philosophy these major infractors become the victims. :-)
You're confusing leniency for a first offense with approval for all offenses. Please don't presume to put words into my mouth. Thanks. I am more than capable of speaking for myself. Besides, if I ever need anyone to speak for me, it won't be you. ;)
You know -- I've given away over 1100 games here. I've had a few rerolls, very few group giveaways, and only a couple of whitelist giveaways. I've even had one that was SGTools protected and the link was leaked to a few people, but you know what? I've never once felt like a victim of anything. Wanna know something else? I never will. :)
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You seem to forget how many amazing contributors we have on this site now who have broken a rule or two in the past. I could name a dozen off the top of my head right now, most are level 10, and all are highly respected in this community.
Strange you mention that as I dont see any of your evidence, proof and statistics in your posts?
In this perticular case not of the many (how many) or one or two rules how many broken and what kind of infractions.
Certain rules are "petty" and some aren't, huh? Which ones and who decided this? You? Is it only the rules you break? Your friends? Hahaha. Good to know how you really feel about rule-breaking, and you probably don't realize this, but you've more proven my case than disproven it with that remark. ;)
Also the drama that you use for the difference between minor and major infractions. :-)
It's as if you think the difference between those is hardly noticable or that it's rocket science.
Calling out is minor and has a very low impact.
Re-gifting, non-activating, scamming, feedback abusing, multiple accounts are major infractions and have a much higher impact.
Your reaction indicates and proves that you have little problems with rule breakers and certainly when they are your friends and that you value the rights of rulebreakers above those of the giveaway creators.
Please don't presume to put words into my mouth. Thanks. I am more than capable of speaking for myself. Besides, if I ever need anyone to speak for me, it won't be you. ;)
Likewise, likewise again and my thoughts exactely! ^ ^
You know -- I've given away over 1100 games here. I've had a few rerolls, very few group giveaways, and only a couple of whitelist giveaways. I've even had one that was SGTools protected and the link was leaked to a few people, but you know what? I've never once felt like a victim of anything. Wanna know something else? I never will. :)
I have done 447 public giveaways; about a 100 whitelists/groups/SGTools giveaways and know my support stats and bad boys/girl stats of these.
I'll see when my 700+ SGTools giveaways end and after those are done I would love to check and compare those SGTools stats with my public giveaways stats to see what's the difference between them concerning the support stats.
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Strange you mention that as I dont see any of your evidence, proof and statistics in your posts?
Jatan, since he already said so himself, is one of them. I can't mention others for the calling out rule. Oh wait, I don't believe in rules, right? ;)
drama
A word used as a lame cop-out to discredit someone's opinion. Major and minor are subjective, by the way.
Calling out is minor and has a very low impact.
In your opinion. Rules are never minor or petty in mine (wow, am I more of a by-the-book guy than you??). They're rules, you either follow them or you don't. there's no "halfway." You might feel differently about it if you were the one being called out.
Your reaction indicates and proves that you have little problems with rule breakers and certainly when they are your friends
It does? :O How so? What friends do I have that break the rules? Please inform me! :O Again, just talking out your ass.
If I felt so lenient about rule-breakers, wouldn't I have broken a few myself by now? Until that time, don't point the finger at me or my friends (I'm wondering who you think my friends even are? Lmao, since most don't even have SG accounts) like we're lowly "cheaters". I've never been suspended, and your precious SGTools will prove I've never broken any rules there. ;)
If anything, I'm more "hardcore" about the rules than you are, because I don't think any of them are "petty" or acceptable to break.
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Strange you mention that as I dont see any of your evidence, proof and statistics in your posts?
Jatan, since he already said so himself, is one of them. I can't mention others for the calling out rule. Oh wait, I don't believe in rules, right? ;)
That's another lame cop-out as to date there are atleast on SG 76 level 10 users and giving just the number of those that have by your saying are level 10 and have broken rules isn't calling out only saying their names is calling out. Don't you know the rules or is it just hiding behind them? :-)
You seem to forget how many amazing contributors we have on this site now who have broken a rule or two in the past
But I guess you even can't or won't give that number you said yourself to know.
How many are there? 1, 2, 5, 10, 20?
You know clearly one or two things yourself about talking out of your ass.
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Way to sidestep everything I said, but I will give a quick answer -
EDITED: the answer should be in your notifictions, so I am now editing this part out. You got your answer.
I don't hide behind rules, but I most definitely do follow them. I also don't make a habit of befriending rule-breakers. I do, however, accept that people make mistakes in their past, and I can overlook that to see the people they have become. I don't hold someone's past against them, but I do hold them responsible for their future choices. I do also understand that people do occasionally make mistakes and am willing to assess that as they happen. Hell, I'm far from perfect, so it's not my place to expect anyone else to be.
By the way, it was jatan who said 95% of all users don't break a rule again after a first offense. That alone is a statistic that cannot be ignored when talking about first time offense perma-bans. By your rules, none of those people would be allowed back on SG. Nuff said. That's an astounding number coming straight from someone who has direct access to that information.
Now, can we get back to why you're accusing my friends of being rule-breakers because I disagree with your idea of "rules?" And I'd still like to know who you think my friends are, because I am certain you just plain ... don't .... know. In fact, I am sure only one of the people you think is a friend of mine actually is. :)
And yes, I know that was just some lame attempt to slur and discredit not only my name, but the names of any of my "friends" (really .. lmao) who disagree with you. I'm not stupid. ;)
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Way to sidestep everything I said, but I will give a quick answer -
You know you think you're throwing a stick towards me but its a boomerang as I can as easily say the same about you.
By the way, it was jatan who said 95% of all users don't break a rule again after a first offense. That alone is a statistic that cannot be ignored when talking about first time offense perma-bans. By your rules, none of those people would be allowed back on SG. Nuff said. That's an astounding number coming straight from someone who has direct access to that information.
It's a pity that the number that Jatan gave is just only a percentage. It would be interesting to see the numbers like those that the SG admin CG posted about number of CV levels and number of users on SG. Of interest would be raw numbers of suspensions and (types of) offences and raw numbers of repeated offenders.
On a much used site as Steamgifts (http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/XaCbA/list-of-all-cv-levels-and-their-corresponding-real-cv) there are about 850 000 SG users so even a small percentage of SG users that do make repeated offences can yield a large number of individual users and I hear from TJ (SG support) that there are 40 000 support tickets still in the pipeline.
Now, can we get back to why you're accusing my friends of being rule-breakers because I disagree with your idea of "rules?" And I'd still like to know who you think my friends are, because I am certain you just plain ... don't .... know. In fact, I am sure only one of the people you think is a friend of mine actually is. :)
For the very last time it was yourself that posted your very bold statement:
You seem to forget how many amazing contributors we have on this site now who have broken a rule or two in the past. I could name a dozen off the top of my head right now, most are level 10, and all are highly respected in this community.
Knowing that there are about 76 level 10 users on SG how do you come to your numbers?
Did you get the number you've posted of level 10 users that have by your saying broke one or more rules from Jatan/SG support?
Is it a dozen or ten or more or less?
Saying a raw number isn't calling out neither am I asking for names.
Or is it possible you don't know this for sure and that you just wanted with you bold statement to thicken your light gravy? :-)
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Your reaction indicates and proves that you have little problems with rule breakers and certainly when they are your friends
Those were your words, not mine. Now which friends? Can you even tell me who my friends are?
Nah, you can't, because you're full of shit. :)
Have a nice day. You're dismissed. :)
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You should really learn to read but I guess that's outside your comfort zone.
Nah, you can't, because you're full of shit. :)
Have a nice day. You're dismissed. :)
Have a nice day too and don't forget to top off your vinegar veins and your chum arteries. :-)
Have fun with some of your "select" friends. :-)
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where does it say in that entering an invite-only ga is against the rules?
leaking is, and that person is punished.
entering leaked GAs is not, and the winner is only rerolled.
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Guidelines does have this bit in them:
"Respect the privacy of invite only giveaways, and if you're invited to a private giveaway, do not share the link with other users unless given permission by the giveaway creator."
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it doesn't say "don't enter if you aren't invited", it means "don't leak the url".
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I wouldn't say it's respecting the privacy of invite only giveaways to enter all of them no matter where you get the link.
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my point is that isn't in the rules, and people don't get suspended on sg for entering leaked giveaways.
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Well, I actually would call those the rules. Sure, it's titled guidelines, but there's plenty of stuff there that is enforced.
Leaked entries don't get suspended if reported here on SteamGifts, that seems to be the case. I do wonder if the winner would happen to be one of those entries, would they get suspended during that reroll request? I'm curious to know if that has happened to someone.
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http://www.steamgifts.com/roles/member
Bottom of the page are all the offenses and their punishments here on SG. :X
Entering a leaked giveaway isn't on the list, and leaking a giveaway is a 3 day suspension.
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Giveaways where the winner used leaked links are for sure approved for reroll. Whether the there's a suspension involved I don't know.
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and i never denied it. i'm just saying they are not punished with a suspension, it's just a reroll for the winner/s.
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This I agree with you. The giveaway must state clearly in the description that it is protected by SGT for the entrants to be guilty. Otherwise they should be considered innocent, because how could they know if the link leakers (could pretty much be their close friends) have the right to share the links or not?
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The giveaway must state clearly in the description that it is protected by SGT for the entrants to be guilty.
Is this set in stone ? it's pretty crazy how many things should be considered by the giveaway creator because the participants naturally are (of course) "innocent" or play the "victim" role.
about general description:Can you imagine how many users really read whole GA descriptions here at sg ? Even if there is a warning message or a friendly request under certain conditions not to enter a giveaway most of them think " I donโt give a shit !" or they simply ignore this information as long as they can hit the green ENTER button !
So,what is the point of this description if there is no "technical barrier" that prevents them from entering ?
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To be frank, why is it our responsibility for people to not be cheaters? It's an invite only GA. They're entering through a leaked link. That's already wrong right there even it wasn't an SGTool GA
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How does Person C know that Person B does not have the right to invite him to an "invite only" GA of Person A? As far as I know, Person A can ask Person B to invite more people to his GA, and this is not even a rare case. Since Person C has no solid evidence that Person B is violating the rules, and Person A did not provide any notice upon the matter, Person C is considered innocent by default. This is why there is no punishment on SG for people who entered leaked GAs: because you cannot prove that they are guilty.
For a clearer view on my thought in this matter, read my comment below.
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Being Person A, I won't be critical of entry if I had allowed Person B to invite anyone. However Person B has no real right beyond being allowed by Person A. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse so Person C can confirm with Person B before entering a GA. Person C also has a responsibility to be an upstanding citizen not just play an innocent victim. Like I pointed out, even if it was just a regular non SGtool GA, a leaked GA is still a leaked GA, Person C should also know the rules. They could as easily ask "Did the GA creator allow you to share this?". That's where I get the "Why is it the creator's burden to make sure that potential rulebreaking isn't done?" I'm not saying there are no innocents but rather in regards to invite only GAs there are known rules about that and since entering it affects your standing in the community you should always be alert on the situation. An accomplice to a crime is still charged, they may not be guilty yet but the burden of innocence is theirs to prove. If you're a driver for a getaway car of a murderer, even if you didn't know what the murderer did, you're considered an accomplice therefore, you have to prove you're innocent.
Most of the complaints against entries come from people whose stuff are leaked or have entries that tried to dodge SGtools, not the ones that allowed someone to share their GAs. Why would we complain about those entries when we allowed them in the first place? It's odd how those defending it against it don't really use SGtools GAs anyway.
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If you're a driver for a getaway car of a murderer, even if you didn't know what the murderer did, you're considered an accomplice therefore, you have to prove you're innocent.
No, this means that you clearly don't understand how laws work. No laws say that you have to prove your own innocence. It is the other way around: the prosecutor will have to provide evidence against you. You only have to present your pieces of evidence for the sake of disproving the prosecutor's evidence. If the prosecutor could not show any evidence, then you are, by default, innocent.
And your point of view is naive. Not all people are bright. Many of them just take things for granted. We are not a utopian society where every member understand perfectly what they could and should do. How do you think people in America are voting for Trump? Because they are simply not as politically intelligent. And those who blindly enter leaked GA simply may not be cognitively intelligent.
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Yeah but as the prosecutor in this point, my evidence is SGTools entries list that can be checked. With evidence against you, you have to prove your innocence after that don't you? For regular GAs, the leaked GA is deleted and there is no further problem. I'm for a multiple strike ruling on the matter of offenses. I understand your points. My main issue is that the entrant also has a burden of responsibility and not all of them should be given a blanket notion of innocence. On this point, I think we'd have to simply agree to disagree.
PS It might be naive but I do favor natural selection over helicopter parenting. :P
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my evidence is SGTools entries list that can be checked. With evidence against you, you have to prove your innocence after that don't you?
Then my evidence is that you did not mention SGT in the description, and thus I did not know about you implementing SGT when I enter. And since you did not tell me about your rule, then to me that rule is void, and I am innocent because I could not violate a void rule ;)
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There is no rule on SG regarding SGT, and so supports rely on ethics instead. Granting a reroll doesn't means that support view the entrants as guilty. But adding them into a global blacklist like what SGT did means SGT views them as guilty, which they are not until you can prove they are.
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There's a party and your friend invited you so you basically crashed it by entering through a side door. You eat the food, drink the drinks, and partake in the party. You get caught without an invitation. The host provides the list and you weren't part of the guests and the establishment decides to ban you for trespassing. From what I get in your explanations is that a valid defense is "I didn't know it was an invite only party, my friend brought me in. Oh I didn't know this was a side door either." Personally, I think the host and the establishment still has the right to ban you and you can only blame your friend for that. Their party and establishment, their rules. You can still attend parties, just not at that place anymore. Like I said, we just have to agree to disagree.
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Your analogue refers to blacklist though. If you want a parallel, then you throw a party with invitations only and ask an outside firm to organise the party for you, including the handling of the invitational list. And now this firm decides that because this friend was brought along to crash that one party, they will deny him entering all other parties forever at all other places.
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I still think it works for me because there are other parties outside of the establishment. Loads of GAs outside of SGTool ones.
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Then my evidence is that you did not mention SGT in the description, and thus I did not know about you implementing SGT when I enter.
What about "normal" steamgifts private/invite only giveaways (without sgtools protection) ? If you got the Link from a questionable source (your friend,game/webforum,chat etc...) and the ga description has no extra info who may participate, is this always a legitimation,wildcard or general key for you "Hello,here i am " ?
- Why do you think you are ALWAYS welcome to private/invite only giveaways ?
- Because you didn't found a specific mention in the Description and you are therefore "innocent" if someone complains about your entry ?
- If you got the sg link from your friend/other source do you know the reason for this private/invite only ga (sg forum event) ? Do you think about it when you press the ENTER button ?
- Do you participate in this event or is it just a quick grab "+1" for your collection ?
- What does the ga creator think about your behavior ?
Maybe you complaining now because your past behavior had no further consequences ?
Take the time & check your sg link sources BEFORE you hit the ENTER button.If you think this is too much effort (or waste of time),it's YOUR problem .Don't blame sgtools/ga creator for your actions.Accept the consequences !
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There is no consequence on SG whatsoever if a person entering a private GA uninvited. Read the Guidelines first, will you?
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Hello,I know these rules :)
There is no consequence on SG whatsoever if a person entering a private GA uninvited.
So this is your typical behavior for private/invite giveaways even if you haven't received an official invitation or simply not welcome ?
If i don't close my front door,it doesn't mean you are allowed to enter !
...one more reason to add new rules !
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You just simply add new rules because you want to and some people say so? You would be an awesome leader. Make Steamgifts great again!
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I appreciate the opportunity to report users to the Sgtool admin if trhey are not entitled to take the offical sgtools "route"
I already told you: I'm not responsible for your questionable giveaway sources.
Since you apparently join all/every sg giveaways you can (regardless of private / not private,invited/uninvited) because you "can" and think it's "ok",i fully support the possibility of sgtool to "block" users like you if you don't use the only valid sgtool link for the giveaway !
...and again here is the ultimate solution for your sgtools problem:You don't like it ? Don't use it !
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Since you apparently join all/every sg giveaways you can
And you know what? You are just talking with extreme ignorance. Where do I ever say that I enter all GA I can? Reading is too much for you? I'm done arguing with you.
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You didn't reply to my comment (see below) ,so yes (i guess) this was previously your typical behavior.
So this is your typical behavior for private/invite giveaways even if you haven't received an official invitation or simply not welcome ?
If i don't close my front door,it doesn't mean you are allowed to enter !
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Do you even understand what I wrote there? Do you know why laws have the statement saying "innocent until proven guilty"? Because there are innocent people who thought that their friends had the right to share the links, and since the GAs did not make it clear that they had to enter through SGT to be eligible, they simply had no way to know if they were doing anything wrong or not. Even if this number of people is small, and even if there are people who pretend they are innocent, you cannot rule this possibility out.
Can you imagine how many users really read whole GA descriptions here at sg ? Even if there is a warning message or a friendly request under certain conditions not to enter a giveaway most of them think " I donโt give a shit !" or they simply ignore this information as long as they can hit the green ENTER button !
When the GA indeed states clearly that it was protected under SGT, then if the entrants don't read the description because of their ignorance, they are guilty for entering that GA. This, I do approve.
So,what is the point of this description if there is no "technical barrier" that prevents them from entering ?
Now, let's compare this to the current legal system, shall we?
We can say that SGT is the law enforcement, then the description of the GA is the laws, and the entrants are the civilians. By default, all civilians are innocent. If the laws state that "doing action A is not allowed", then even if the civilians don't read the laws, they are still guilty if they do action A. Now if the laws do not state that doing action B is guilty, then no charge can be given to the civilians if they do action B, because they do not violate the laws. It is as simple as "you can do whatever you want as long as it is not forbidden by written laws".
And the "technical barrier" you mentioned above is SGT, a law enforcement system, and thus it must only serve as a tool to prevent people from violating the laws, not an entity with its own laws.
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Do you even understand what I wrote there? Do you know why laws have the statement saying "innocent until proven guilty"? Because there are innocent people who thought that their friends had the right to share the links, and since the GAs did not make it clear that they had to enter through SGT to be eligible, they simply had no way to know if they were doing anything wrong or not. Even if this number of people is small, and even if there are people who pretend they are innocent, you cannot rule this possibility out.
WTF ? Again,the "my friend gave me the link" adoption.With or without SGtools:Who the f** are you that you believe you (or your friends) allowed to enter all/everything because it's a steamgifts giveaway ? it's called PRIVATE/INVITE only for a reason !!!
When the GA indeed states clearly that it was protected under SGT, then if the entrants don't read the description because of their ignorance, they are guilty for entering that GA. This, I do approve.
forget the SGtools protected part:I was talking about steamgifts giveaways that contains (for example) the base game+season pass or (any) DLC addon.
- I create a giveaway that contains the base game+Season Pass
- I add the Info "Please don't enter if you already own the base game !" You can compare this information with "your" Sgtools Warning Message,correct ?
- I click create ga and wait a few hours.
Guess,what happens in the meantime ?
People,who already own the base enter this giveaway because
a) "Already exists in account" doesn't work here or a technical pre-check fails.You can enter,even if you already own this game !
b) they want the season pass/DLC. remember ? They can enter...(my nice warning message is pretty useless)
c) they are focused on this green button called "ENTER"
d) they don't read/ignore the ga description (including my request/warning message)
So,once again my question:Why do you think a simple info/warning message will stop people entering giveaways,if they can ? Moral concerns ?
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The moment you use your curse words, I think I have nothing more to discuss with you. But just to brighten you up a bit, here are my answers:
Who the f** are you that you believe you (or your friends) allowed to enter all/everything because it's a steamgifts giveaway ? it's called PRIVATE/INVITE only for a reason !!!
I am a member of a society, and when my friend invite me to a private party, I simply believe that he/she has the right to do so because the party holder allows him/her to bring guests. Have you ever experienced that in real life? Well, actually I myself will question my friend about that, since I am a cautious person, but it doesn't mean other people have the same mindset, so they may accept their friend's invitation without question.
do you think a simple info/warning message will stop people entering giveaways,if they can ? Moral concerns ?
I did not wrote even one word saying that it will stop people. Please consider improving your reading comprehension. What I meant up there is that if you wrote a warning/request/notice or whatever it is in the description, then you can use it as evidence against the user who entered your GAs and prove that they are guilty of doing what you explicitly don't allow. After that, if they are banned by SGT or blacklisted by you, then it's consistent and understandable. If you, on the other hand, wrote nothing in the description, then you have zero evidence to prove that you indeed implemented SGT and because of that, the person indeed did not violate your (nonexistent) rule.
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I am a member of a society, and when my friend invite me to a private party, I simply believe that he/she has the right to do so because the party holder allows him/her to bring guests. Have you ever experienced that in real life? Well, actually I myself will question my friend about that, since I am a cautious person, but it doesn't mean other people have the same mindset, so they may accept their friend's invitation without question.
Your comparisons are funny.Are you a party crasher ?
Here is the short way:
- I (as a ga creator) am not responsible for your "giveaway-sources"
- Join every ga/party you want
- Accept the consequences !
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Accept the consequences !
The consequences are the decision of the GA/party holders and the holders only. SGT or any other entity aside the holder has no right to apply any consequences on these entrants. And thus, by the laws/rules, they are globally not guilty, albeit some GA/party holders may have them on their blacklist (but again, that is the holder personal choices).
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SGT or any other entity aside the holder has no right to apply any consequences on these entrants
They do. It's a privately owned website. They can set whatever rules they want.
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Then I guess the decision still lies on the GA holders, and they will have to add those who are blacklisted by SGT to the GA themselves. SGT will no longer be a public tool that serves people, but a private tool that fits its creators only.
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It will be a public tool, you just need to abide by its rules if you want to use it. Like this website actually, if you break the rules of SG, you'll get suspended or banned.
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The rules on SG is logical, reasonable and considerate. The blacklist on SGT isn't. It's a huge different between a public tool where options are customizable to every detail, and a private tool made public where users have to abide the creator's decisions.
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The blacklisting on SGT is for people who enter through leaked giveaway links or people who leak giveaway links. Considering the amount of leaks we've been having around these parts, it's a good thing that there are some consequences for entering through leaked GA links. And this means that people will hopefully think before they hit that "enter giveaway" button. If you're given a link to someone else's giveaway, you should consider that it might be a leaked link. If you don't, then you're to blame for the consequences. Laziness is not an excuse.
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+1
Quite weird how other people with no real invite only GA experience or SGtools usage tenure has opinions about it. Like priests having a say on abortion.
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In case of faragona experience is quite irrelevant as to my understanding he/she pointed out opinion/view from legal perspective and from the looks of it, quite strong and valid point (looking through entire discussion)
+1 faragona, i liked how well structured your point of view is
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And why should priests not speak about abortion? As long as it is a public matter, everyone has the right to discuss it.
Anw, I have suggested a simple solution for this in reply to Fnord comment.
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I have a simple and implementable solution: make the SGT blacklist optional, i.e. let the users untick the option "subscribe to SGT blacklist" as they want to. If we continue on with my "party" example, then the police doesn't have the right to ban people from entering party. Instead, they can issue a "well-known people who enter parties uninvited", and let the party hosts decide whether to apply that list or not.
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Hey knsys, could you please whitelist Pinball FX2 - Civil War Table?
It's showing up as unactivated in my account, which is quite surprising given that I just got done playing it :P
Thanks!
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It shows as a "probably activated DLC", which is typical from steam api.
Don't worry, you are not flagged as having unactivated gifts, since dlc's are wrongly reported by steam on tons of cases. That's why it's hidden by default and you have to click it to view them.
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Steamgifts recidivism stats, in case anyone is interested.
My 5% recidivist figure was too high of an estimate. For non-activation offenses, now with a larger sample size (n=72):
2 users permanently suspended after 3 infractions
2 users permanently suspended after 2 infractions
9 users suspended twice
59 users suspended once
Essentially an 18% recidivism rate for first offense.
These stats only include those users who have been suspended and have won further games after the suspension. (Otherwise, they haven't proven that they learned the rules yet)
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I am very interested :)
On what time frame are those numbers based?
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Thanks for publishing steamgifts stats, that is extremely informative and interesting!
So with those numbers, we have that around 18% break rules again, with a 5.5% breaking major rules afterwards that deserves them a permaban on steamgifts. That really surprises me because permabans are extremely rare on steamgifts, even when people break the rules that deserves a permaban.
Those are the final numbers for steamgifts? Because 72 bans seems way too low for the whole site 4 years of live.
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That's not the total for the website, it's just a sample manually collected by jatan. Currently there is no tool that can give us suspension stats for the whole website. It's hard to say a number, but clearly there's been thousands of suspensions.
5.5% breaking major rules afterwards
No, jatan said this is only about recidivism for non-activation. They get permabanned for repeating the same mistakes. Also you'll notice that jatan only mentioned permabanned users after 2 or 3 infractions, but that doesn't mean you can't get permabanned for non-activations on your first suspension, it happens. It's just irrelevant here since it's about recidivism.
And permabans aren't esactly rare, several users get it everyday. You probably don't notice because most of the time it's users that never post on the forum.
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Thanks for the clarification Joachim, that makes much more sense :)
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If I had access to unsuspend requests, this would be better. Unfortunately I do not, so I took my data from going through random people who were reported in the "Other" section, then when I ran out of those, random people in the queues that I have access to. This means that I'm undersampling people who are permanently suspended, since those likely aren't the type of people to make tickets other than unsuspend.
Anyways, that's really the best i can do without being a moderator.
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And it's awesome! Thanks for taking the time to gather it and sharing with us :)
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Knowing that there are 40 000 supports tickets in the pipeline (I've read this number posted by you TJ) and that there are about 850 000 SG users (a small percentage of total users/total offenders can still yield a large number of individual users) It's logical to think that the numbers that Jatan gives us are off and light because they are based on only partial data.
It would be even more interesting if we would see the total real/raw numbers of offenders and serial offenders and types of offences and not just a percentage based on partial numbers.
Also I'm happy to report that the serial scammer that I (and others) reported 11 months ago and made atleast 5 other victims than me is now permanently suspended.
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40,000 tickets in User Reports, which is a queue that Support cannot access.
An increase in sample size will increase accuracy, but the numbers generated with this limited study should not deviate too much. I suspect you won't be satisfied and will probably ignore this until it's expanded to the entirety of Steamgifts, which is unfortunate, because limited data does provide a lot of insight into real behavior.
By the way, non-activation is the rule people break multiple times the most. Other offender types will see a large decrease in multiple offenses compared with non-activation. From what I saw yesterday, things like begging, calling out, and misleading giveaways have almost 0% recidivist rate.
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Please don't see my post just above you as me trying to undermine you.
I'm just wanting to say in a language that's not my native language that when it goes about statistics that statistics will always be statistics but that complete data are more secure than partial data.
And with those 40 000 tickets I wanted to say that there might and most probably are also serial offenders and offenders in those tickets that are not yet know unto you/SG support.
Maybe our Admin CG will say these numbers sometime in the future like he also said the numbers of users on SG and their CV level.
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recidivism
Nice, today I learnt another new word on SG. I guess the decision to stick with SG Discussion is really worth it :3
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Honestly, thinking about it, that implies the most people are just making an honest mistake when they do it.
I think the best solution would be to:
-
Require a sync when confirming a gift.
-
If the gifted game is not present on their SG account, display a warning message to the user ("Hey, we couldn't find the game on your account. You're required to redeem all games you win on the Steam account you used to sign up for Steamgifts. If you already redeemed it, this may be caused by it being DLC or something else that the Steamgifts system can't track. Are you sure you want to confirm?")
This would reduce the amount of time Support has to waste cleaning up after mistakes and would generally reduce regifting. It'd also ensure that anyone who does regift can't claim ignorance. And it would avoid the problem some of the other suggestions here have where someone would need to maintain a list of games the system can't track (it'd just be a "soft" warning rather than a hard inability to confirm, so for DLC or the like people could just click "yes, I really did redeem it even though the system can't see it, and I want to confirm.")
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Hello knsys,
i know nothing about your technical and financial capabilities but would you consider to handle all sgtools relevant topics in a separate (your own) forum ? Not only for the sake of clarity :-)
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I prefer for the sake of transparency that everyone can see what is happening with sgtools.
By everyone I mean, people that are in favor, people that hate it, people that think it's spyware (we love you konrads) and people who just don't care.
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Ok, I thought only because
- you have already your own domain
- this thread is a mix of sgt updates,complaints,haters,spyware speculations,conspiracy theories
- you have decided to reveal cheaters (against the usual steamgifts handling)
With your own "playground" you're able to handle things your way without conflict with any regular steamgifts rule.Less drama ?
But okay,your "baby",your decision :-)
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For those who miss Muiiins modified styles for sgtools, you can grab the new fork thanks to CC BY License.
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SteamGifts Tools is a tool in a form of a website that lets you do some interesting checks to steamgifts mechanics:
Link www.sgtools.info
Themes
User Scripts
Tools
Limitations
This thread contains a Wiki visible with the GHWSGI userscript. If you prefer to see it directly on GitHub instead, click here.
This thread contains a Wiki visible with the GHWSGI userscript. If you prefer to see it directly on GitHub instead, click here.
This thread contains a Wiki visible with the GHWSGI userscript. If you prefer to see it directly on GitHub instead, click here.
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