That's beyond the point, giving different rewards based on the amount of people that pre-purchase is bullshit.
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There is nothing wrong with DLC if it's done right. Day 1 DLC is bullshit, DLC that adds very little content to the game is bullshit, on-disk DLC (consoles) is bullshit, but when it's well executed there's nothing wrong with it. Granted, it's not the most common sight these days, most DLC's are worthless garbage, but still.
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Sure. I'm certain the intended point of this was to get more people to pre-order, but if people fall for that gimmicky sort of thing, don't you think it's their own fault? Doesn't mean you have to be a part of it. In fact, you're only promoting them with this thread. You think you're fighting the system, but...you ARE the system.
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It's not my intention to "fight the system". They are not getting any money from me and that's all I care about. It just impresses me the new shit they can come up with.
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Why? It's actually pretty ingenious. Several kickstarter campaigns have done this...it's actually surprising a dev/pub hasn't done this before.
The ONLY thing sketchy about this is that it should display what is needed for each tier.
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Of course you don't, you were already going to buy the game regardless of any pre-order bonuses it might have come with.
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Yes, but everyone who did pre-order would be screwed unless a required (non-disclosed) amount of people pre-ordered as well.
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It isn't, yet you are still being offered that content, and the possibility of getting it is out of your reach. It doesn't matter if you want it or not. If you do want it you might not get it, just because the game didn't sell as well as the company expected/required it to. People are getting locked out of content (regardless of the quality and importance of the content) solely based on the sales of the game.
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I'm being offered the potential to gain those extras. I'm not expecting it (though with the cult popularity of the franchise I'd be shocked it if didn't). If things work out everyone gets a nice bonus. If they don't...they still get what they paid for. That's ultimately what it comes down to.
If people are worried about whether they are going to hit certain marks (like the TF2 crowd) then they can sit on the sidelines and wait for it to hit that mark.
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You are not expecting it, that's awesome, but this is not just about you. I can't say this enough times people are getting locked out of content depending on the success of the game. Yes, in this case it's cosmetic stuff, but that is not the point.
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It is just cosmetic extras. That's what good companies will do with a system like this. It's great for the people that intended on pre-ordering. It's great for the people on the fence for that extra nudge. And it's great marketing for the devs & publisher because it'll get people talking about the pre-order (you've even helped them a bit with that today). It's not like people are going to pre-order solely to get access to the items. And if they did...they would just wait until that level is confirmed.
"Yes, in this case it's cosmetic stuff, but that is not the point."
Don't make me paste the quote again.
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A full game is hardly a cosmetic extra. And I highly doubt that the 20 people that have read this thread didn't already know about the game. Also, with this system people have to speculate, which is always a bad idea. If a reward tier is still locked and people want that reward they either have to wait until it is unlocked (speculating that it will be unlocked) or pre-order the game and hope that the minimum is reached.
The system is the problem, the rewards aren't. Even with this game and these rewards, the system is a problem. All companies have the same objective: profit. Some are more transparent than others. Setting random, undisclosed targets is not an example of transparency.
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Don't even respond to their BS, salionski...astrartea is a bitter, naive person.
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They don't really have to speculate. All they have to do is occasionally take a look at the site to see if the level has been reached. or is close with a long time to go. Not exactly an astounding amount of effort or tactical knowledge required.
Of course the objective is profit. Of course this is blatant marketing to hopefully gain more profit. But at least it's marketing that the end user can benefit from.
And you keep believing that these numbers are only known to Firaxis. By the way they're back up to 48%. Maybe it was a glitch with a new system and not some wild conspiracy after all. This is the problem with people always assuming everyone is going to do the worst thing.
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Speculation never takes tactical knowledge nor effort. It's taking a risk expecting to get something you want in return.
And yes, the end user can benefit from, but if and ONLY if the company's standards and expectations are met.
Finally, no. The problem is not people expecting the worst. It's people assuming that this is all done in good faith, people not caring about stuff like this People expecting the worst are not the ones who end up being disappointed. Bye the way, 48%, 99%, 1% it's all meaningless when you don't know what that percentage represents.
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There is no risk for the end user unless he pre-orders before a level is reached. They don't have to. They receive the previous levels when the next goal has been reached (similar to most Kickstarters). They just have to wait and check another time. If it doesn't look like it's going to ever happen...then just buy the game in the store. It's not hard.
Unlike you I'm not on either side. I know there will be companies that will abuse it (and I've stated that multiple times), but I'm not going to assume every company will. The mix of Firaxis and Valve I can have more faith in than if I saw EA do this on Origin.
And you'd still be bitching and moaning if you knew the numbers anyway. Because then those numbers could be manipulated.
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You are still failing to see the issue. Yes, percentages are an peoblwm, but that's the small part. The whole system is crap, with or without percentages. The current "pre-order game - get bonus content" was already crap, but still way better than this "pre-order game - maybe get bonus content" system.
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You just said the current pre-order system is already crap. I don't see a problem with experimenting with something new to see if it can yield better results. You might not like how this system has launched, but that doesn't mean it can't be refined.
I'd rather see them try new things rather than plodding along with the same old shit.
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Experimenting with something that's obviously worse is not a good choice. I prefer to know what I'm geting with my purchase than having to wait and see if the game sells well according to devs/publishers' standards.
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Yeah that is pretty bull. It's trying to force people to make Pre-orders to get bonuses, the bonuses should just be incentives that everyone who Pre-orders gets.
Only way this can be justified is if it creates more awesome bonuses.
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Yes, a reward that you have no control over. You pre-order the game without knowing what you'll get. You have no knowledge on the amount of people needed to unlock tiers either, which means it can be very easily manipulated. All you get are shady percentages. If you were already planning to buy the game it's not important, because you most probably didn't even care for pre-order bonuses.
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I had every intention of pre-ordering the game. I've been waiting for a new X-Com for years. Most of the pre-orders will be from people like me. Then there will be more that loved the idea of the Kickstarter-lite approach, but those people were already thinking of pre-ordering before. This is just another way for companies to nudge them a bit.
There will be companies that adopt this strategy and manipulate the statistics, or they could even do something more shady with it. But I'm not going to automatically assume every company is going to do it. The basic idea is great. Shady companies will do shady things no matter what the idea is.
There is no possible way for them to give you the transparency that would make you happy.
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This is not a "thank you for supporting the development process". The game is already finished. They are not giving rewards for pre-orders. They are punishing* everyone by not giving rewards UNLESS a certain amount is reached. The actual reward is not important in this case because it's nothing game-changing nor important. But this is just the first step, it's the first time we see this. What if the first reward was DLC? If we don't sell 10 million pre-orders, you get no DLC.
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Again, I'm not going to condemn an idea because of how others may abuse it. It's ridiculous.
People complained in the same way when DLC first started popping up. There have been some bad practices associated with DLC, but also some real great moments in gaming too. The idea isn't the problem. Shady companies will always find ways to do shitty things. Just don't support them.
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You got a somewhat recent major AAA (giftable) title as unlockable content in a game?
The other stuff is minor at best, but the level 3 is pretty above and beyond for a pre-order bonus. Especially since we're not even talking about a deluxe or collector's edition.
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true, the things is that all this stuff the are "giving away" are finished, so the SHOULD be on the download in day 1, the point about Expansions and DLC it's something the devs are going to create after they sell the game. Just another way to take money.
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Except that the idea behind kickstarter is to back up projects that need funding to be finished, and rewards tiers are a way that the people behind those projects have of saying "thank you for backing us".
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They reveal the reward, not the amount of buyers required, which is also bullshit since it can be easily manipulated. Percentages are meaningless if you don't know the amount of people required.
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Manipulating something more transparent like that can be done. They could just slow down the overall progress that the pre-order progress is going at.
But that would mean Valve would have to be in on it. Actually, Valve would have to be in on it now. There's no way they put in a new system like this without Valve having full knowledge of the numbers involved.
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I'm actually pretty okay with this. The way I see it, the stuff from level 1 is good enough as a preorder bonus already, so level 2 and 3 would be just a bonus on top of the bonus, really. And with Level 3 being a copy of Civ 5 (!), that's quite a big one, too.
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I'm actually more than okay with this as well. It's a minor pre-order bonus/appearance DLC at best for stage one, a fucking TF2 hat parade for stage two and something far and beyond what is expected for stage three. I think this is actually a really clever incentive to pre-order that doesn't sink to any new lows like some games have. I'm far, far more angry at DLC for specific consoles or pre-order bonuses only available in certain locations never being released in some form later.
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I am a bit more skeptic regarding these new sale methods. Sure, at first it is only some silly horse armor. Nothing major. Then they release some skin/texture DLCs. Sure, why not if somebody wants them. After skins we got addiotional content like guns, levels, NPCs and now we heading to a point where developers/publishers cut content from base game to sell it as separate DLC.
It is a small step from being nice and offering extra to being just greedy and way too many are making leaps these days.
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At the same time if the conspiracy theorists got their way back when DLC was introduced we would've missed out on a lot of quality DLC.
I've already said it before in this thread. The idea isn't the problem. Shady companies will always find ways to do shitty things. Just don't support them.
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Quality DLC used to be called "expansion pack". We wouoldn't have missed on quality content but we would have been saved from a ton of shit called DLC. There has been very little decent DLC compared to all the crap we have seen over the years.
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Except the whole indie market. The people who bitched and moaned about DLC cried about digital distribution too. And some of the best DLC has come from an indie market that would not have been able to thrive to the same level without digital distribution.
There is good DLC and bad. And companies still have the option to do small content DLC or full expansions (some have done both).
"I've already said it before in this thread. The idea isn't the problem. Shady companies will always find ways to do shitty things. Just don't support them."
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That's just generalizing. Not everyone who complained about DLC complained about digital distribution. And I'm still entirely sure that without the modern DLC concept we would be much better off. Anyways this has absolutely nothing to do with DLC strategies nor what you call shady companies. The idea IS the problem. Even with the best of intentions you are basing your rewards on the success of your game.
And obviously that whole "if you don't like it don't support it logic" doesn't work. It never has and never will because a few people not supporting the company changes nothing.
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But you don't have to be involved with it. If you don't like a company's practices then you can avoid it. You don't have to purchase their product. They're not holding a gun to your head. There are companies doing good things with DLC. I enjoyed some of the DLC from Fallout: NV and Dragon Age. Just today I picked up the Trine collection and heard great things about the DLC from that. I'm looking forward to playing it. I've heard the same thing about Binding of Isaac. And it's pretty obvious that a ton of people out there are big fans of Magicka's DLC.
There have definitely been companies that have been the bad guys of DLC. But don't even try to claim like there hasn't been positive moments in DLC. And you might have been better off without the introduction of DLC, but there are many indie developers & fans of indie titles that would very much disagree with you.
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I am avoiding it, it doesn't stop this from pissing me off and being a terrible system. Me buying or not their game won't change that, because as with DLC, this might be a new trend, and I would hate to have to deal with this shit in games I do enjoy.
And regarding the DLC, there have been good ones, but those are without a doubt few cases in an ocean of shitty overpriced DLC. DLC has little to do with most indie titles.
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I've seen shitty DLC and good DLC. The only time I've bought the shitty DLC is when it was free with the original game. After the initial wave of horrible DLC when it first caught on I've found that the overall quality has improved substantially. Devs are doing more interesting things with it now. Maybe not things that appeal to everyone, but that's probably one of the best benefit of DLC. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone.
I don't really understand the ridiculous amount of mostly aesthetic Magicka DLC out there, but the hardcore fans of the game love that shit. I'm not going to condemn them for it. They wouldn't have access to something like that without DLC.
I have no doubts that if this Kickstarter-lite idea catches on I'm going to see some pretty terrible shit. Just like I saw the same thing when DLC was first introduced (oh god EA sports). But I'm at least going to hope that the same things happens as DLC and I see a lot of positives in the long run. I'm not just going to assume it's the end of the world every time a company does something new.
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Difference being that DLC when well executed provides good content and more gameplaay to a game you like in exchange for your money, and in some cases, as a bonus for pre-ordering (a free season pass in the best of cases). With this you get the possibility to get something, which depends on something you have no control on.
When you pre-order a game that comes with a free DLC, you get exactly that: base game + bonus content. When you pre-order a game that uses this new method you get base game + chances of getting bonus content.
I personally can't see a single case in which this could be an improvement to the current (already shitty) pre-order bonus model.
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But that well executed DLC wouldn't have existed if it was up to you. Same with all of that other content that might not appeal to you, but definitely appeals to many others.
This new method is up to the company. They could've just tossed in one of the early extras and said that was the pre-order bonus. Instead they made it much more comprehensive. You just don't like how they did it. But you don't seem to like much.
There's nothing really wrong with the current pre-order model except that it would've been less effective in this situation. X-Com is an old franchise with a pretty decent sized cult fandom, but nowhere near the level of many current franchises. It's been dead for a long time.
This is a tool to get people to pre-order and to market the game at the same time. It's win-win for Firaxis (and Steam). And the customers potentially get more than if they did a basic pre-order. There's no chance they would've included all of that with just the old school method.
In that way it is far more effective for both sides. The tool might catch on and others can and will use it for the wrong reasons. Others might do something even more unique and beneficial/fun with it. I'd rather sit back and watch it unfold than just assume it's going to have some dramatic negative impact on my personal gaming habits. I'm just not angry enough at the world anymore to be that negative.
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I'm with salionski. I hate slippery slope arguments. The core concept isn't the problem, it's what people will do with it. If they abuse it, smack them the fuck down. Gamers have had huge effects on companies before, we can do this too.
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It isn't very slippery: it is the fundamental core of any business. Their purpose is to get consumers' money, and if possible, with lowest effort.
I do not share your optimistic view of gamers being capable of smacking anything. In general, I regard gamers as very tame puppies who get beaten by the market time after time and are even willing to pay for more. Hence, I will oppose any similar system that I consider to be very likely in continuing the tradition.
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If they get to level 3 watch the CivV giveaways increase......
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I really hope this will never ever happen. That would be the day I'd go back to pirating games. Punishing consumers by locking rewards unless a certain amount of expensive pre-orders are sold is a new low in my books.
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Wha.. why are you so upset about it? I think it's great. If, let's say, 10k people pre-order a game, it's the same bonus for everybody everytime. But at the same amount of people, we could get more bonuses. Its also encourages people to pre-order it, which is accually also a good thing.
I accually like this idea and really want this method to be used on all games.
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Because if let's say 9.999 people pre-order the game, just because it didn't get the 10k sales that the company was expecting, those 9.999 people won't get any bonuses. And sure, today those bonuses are shitty cosmetic stuff, but that's how it always starts.
And unless you own a company that makes games, I don't see how pre-orders are a good thing.
I really hope this system is never implemented in any other game. Sadly, as we can see, people don't mind being locked out of content based on a game's success.
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That's the point. If they never told you what you could possibly get until it is achieved, there would be no problem. You are shown something and the possibility of getting it is completely out of anyone's reach.
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I would consider pre-ordering in general as bad. If you pre-order, you buy a product that you have quite limited knowledge about. There has been quite many cases in the history where the game was not what people wanted. In worst cases, you actually end up buying a piece of software scrap that will not even start.
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This stuff doesn't encourage me to pre-oder it at all, I'd say otherwise.
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But the TF2 items are already in game files...
If they don't get enough preorders... What will they do?
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oh, don't worry. Level 2 will be reached. It will stop shortly before level 3. Or maybe, since it's the first time, it actually goes to level 3.
It's in the script. Sales have nothing to do with it.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but pre-ordering died for me with Legends of Pegasus.(well, actually it already died when i purchased Master of Orion 3 the first day it was out, i just forgot).
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They will come up with more of this "clever" stuff as long as people buys things like these. And you know what? They do.
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Yeah, not even getting into price tags since $50-$60 seems to be the new industry standard. And for what I've heard you guys tend to get even more screwed over.
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So I was just checking steam headlines and I saw XCOM: Enemy Unknown was already available for pre-order, and I thought I'd give it a look. That's when I saw this:
What the actual fuck
It amazes me the new type of bullshit devs/publishers seem to be coming up with.
EDIT:
I find this even better. First screenshot was taken at the time this post was made, 1-2 hours ago. This screen was just taken. Here Notice anything strange? (Tip: Check the percentages)
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