Yeh lets shoehorn shitty multiplayer that will will be dead in 2 weeks into every game.
Not like those funds would have been better spent on the core game right?
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+1 Very true, people will always try to pirate things no matter what. There are also bootleggers on amazon.com and Ebay, and always be careful when shopping in those sites. There are people that sell stuff like bootlegged anime dvds and all other types of DVDs all the time on amazon.com, always make sure that the seller is an trusted seller. I usually buy my music CDs, DVDs, and games from retail stores like Best Buy, and sometimes from amazon.com from an trusted seller but still be careful with whose the seller.
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Yeah, waste resources and money on a game mode that probably no one will play.
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Didn't stop people pirating COD4, L4D2, etc then, wouldn't stop them now. Also, pretty much all Cyber cafes pirate their games.
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Reminds me of Medal of Honor when EA decided to have two studios develop the single player and multiplayer separately. I shit you not, it literally felt like two different games.
I'm interested in Spec Ops purely for the campaign as well, I'll never be visiting the multiplayer menu.
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TF2 makes more money now than when it was 10 bucks.
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The same way as TF2, get Cosmetic items that wont affect the gameplay...You know, like in many other games, does the word "Skins" rings a bell?
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Thats exactly what they said when companies brought up that idea for MP games.
"What? You honestly expect people to pay money for silly little hats and accessories that add nothing to gameplay??"
Now look at it, hardly any MP game is released that doesnt offer some kind of cosmetic item or pet or w/e.
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Yes, now substitute "single player" with "muitiplayer". back in "the day" the thought that people would pay money for tiny bits of code that granted no benefit was crazy talk.
And now you are saying that its crazy to think people would drop money for DLC that does just that. Shit, look at Saints Row, most of that DLC is costumes and you know what? It sells...
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free single player game with payable DLC can be pirated/hacked depending on how it's distributed and the whole point is not having multiplayer else it would ruin all the single player games. That's what everyone in this thread is saying, you see Bioshock 2 multiplayer, it was horrible.
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And there, you do it so people recognize you. No one will see you in a single player game. Possibly not even yourself if playing in first person.
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Dude, where have you been the last years.
"Buy [whatever] and receive this exclusive skin"
It has been implemented in several games, and people actually buy them. And I said cosmetics as an example, there are other things such as "new weapons", "exclusive cars", and other stuff that has been there for a long time.
You don't like hats, other people do.
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if its a single player game which is free, and you can purchase cars/weapons/skins if it's through a DLC it can be pirated, if it's not and is already implemented in the game files it can be hacked. don't see how this could prevent piracy since single player games are client sided.
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i just was reffering to that person who said that there is no point to sell people hats and skinns... apperantly he is wrong, best examples are Darksiders, Sims, Saints Row etc shit...
People who cant model, texturize or hack will buy DLC's, or hats...
u must have hats!
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That's possible. Look at Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Pre-orders in US nets you Grey Fox skin. Every MGS fan loves Grey Fox and thinks that is so badass. We are talking about a skin, not a game-changer item, but it's a pretty good bonus.
All EU orders will have it on new copies.
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it is actually really simple, u develop a game that is pretty good, people love it, price is cheap. Sell more copies. Getting 100 more pirates to buy ur games @ $10 is better than spending money on DRM locking ur game just to sell only 10 copies @ $60. The only thing u worry about if u cant feed ur families is when your game suck & doesnt sell. In that case u deserve to die & go bankrupt.
Runic has proved that selling games @ $15-20 is possible, and TL2 is already down to 10 bucks in just a few months.
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You deserve to die and go bankrupt if your game doesn't sell well? Seems kind of harsh....
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The problem with this is that games cost a LOT of money to develop. Unless you only want to see games at the level of TF2, it's an awful idea. Not that TF2 is bad per se, but it's an extremely hollow game without any narrative content.
I like games like Mass Effect, Deus Ex, Assassin's Creed, Far Cry, GTA, etc., but they all cost $100m+ to develop. The day American consumers start pirating like Russian ones is the day the game industry dies. :(
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Far Cry? GTA? those games are as "hollow" as TF2.
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next you will say far cry 3's story mode is shallow because it doesnt have enough team objective modes in it haha.
TF2 is purposely multiplayer only so I don't understand how it can be shallow for lack of narrative content, when it is infact deep with the hundreds of items and dozens of maps, modes and playstyles on offer.
judging a multiplayer game based off of singleplayer aspects and vice versa,..... wut?
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I hate internal pricing. So I download the game for free and then have to manage micro transactions to "enjoy" the game?
I would much rather just pay a retail price and then have access to all the features of the game so I get a "full" experience.
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Unfortunately some studios have already had this ultimately bad idea.
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Not exactly. I'm sure most, if not all studios add multiplayer components because they think it will improve the longevity of their game and a larger fan base will be created.
I loved Dead Space 2, but I didn't even consider touching that tacked on multiplayer garbage. Some games just shouldn't have multiplayer introduced to their franchise (Dead Space 2, Bioshock 2, all tacked on).
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NO NO NO. Multiplayer is a gigantic waste of developer time for most games.
What got me to stop pirating games is switching to PC, the abundance of sales/deals on Steam, and the fact that I have my entire game library available on any computer I want. Honestly I don't miss it at all.
If developers want my hard-earned money, they'll sell the game for a reasonable price, make it available on Steam, and most importantly, spend their time working on a GOOD game so when I read the reviews all I hear is good things.
When was the last time you played Bioshock 2 multiplayer? Never, because it was a shitty waste of time.
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This. I want to buy games. Make it easy and painless and I WON'T PIRATE GAMES. SIMPLE.
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That said I bought a flash cart for my Nintendo DS, never bought another game again, and have no regrets. Portable games aren't made with enough quality to justify being half the price of a console/PC game.
When someone puts out a GOOD handheld system with cutting-edge mobile hardware and a good game lineup, I'll happily start buying them again, though I think a "buy the system, get all the games for a subscription fee" model might be worth looking into.
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I hate tack on multiplayer. Devs already have their own reasons for throwing in a half assed multiplayer component. But primarily, they want people to play their game for longer. Fuck that, I have so much more respect for devs who put all their effort into polishing a decent single player campaign. I don't want multiplayer because it "gives me more to do" and I don't want it because it "prevents piracy".
There are better ways to tackle piracy, this would only make games worse.
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They even do shit like having to play multiplayer to get the best ending in single player like in ME3.
Fuck you EA, I'll still get it for free
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That's not true, without playing the MP of ME3 you can get the best ending (what best ending? :P) You just have to make everything right in the prequels.
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I wasn't really saying it will completely stop piracy but it will lower it. But if they're planning on a very very good game like Skyrim, they should also try to consider multiplayer on it so there will be less pirates. An example is when I met someone on l4d2 and he was talking about skyrim and I asked him how much it costed him. He said he pirated it. He said he always pirates single player games.
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That's why I only read the first few words of your OP; far too many words.
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Skyrim is a best-seller and stills sells a lot 1 year after release, they are not having any problems with pirates.
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Just looked at that Diablo 3 abomination. It failed because of this ALWAYS ONLINE-DRM which came from a single player/LAN system.
Honestly, putting an ingenious anti-piracy trap into the game is way better to prevent people from pirating a game.
Just like serious sam 3 or batman
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D3 failed because its hollow and forced MP and lost the die hard fans that wanted to play it for the great story. Forcing people to play online is never the way to go, it should be an added benefit not a requirement.
Batman was pirated to all hell tbh.
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Don't forget about the Battle.net Authenticator for account security. Battle.net has had alot security issues before on thier website before. Once they they think that someone is trying to compromise someone's battle.net account the victim's account will almost always stay locked, and owner of the account would be lucky if they do get it unlock. Make sure you always have an Battle.net Authenticator. Even though all what i owned on battle.net account was my old copy of diablo 2 battle chest, someone still tried to snatch my Battle.net, and i still can't unlock it. All what says is invalid user named and email miss match. I wonder if that person had World of Warcraft in mind? And i still can't get it unlocked, its been locked to prevent someone from stealing my account.
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A good way to stop piracy is to make good games, treat the community well and have reasonable prices.
I used to pirate everything, had't bought a game for years, it was inconcievalbe for me. And then I started by buying one or two games on steam that were so cheap and today I almost buy everything I play.
Also I pirated the witcher, and the game was so amazing, and the devs so awesome with free updates, proper pc release etc, that I bought both witcher titles on gog to support them, and also got a few other games there.
That's how you do it, not with some crappy drm or multiplayer
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"A good way to stop piracy is to make good games, treat the community well and have reasonable prices."
Tell that to Bethesda and their Skyrim team.
Prices don't mean jack shit to pirates. They can get the game for free, so why pay even a little?
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Granted, many people pirate to save money, but speaking as a semi former pirate who pirated Skyrim, New Vegas, Fallout, Oblivion, Bioshock, BF2142 (i think), and a LOT more games, I can tell you that some people buy these games if they are a good price and experience. Steam is a great thing to happen to PC gaming.
Why pirate and then buy? 1.) To test out the game, make sure it runs correctly and to see if youd actually enjoy it. Most games dont come with any demos and most reviewers are biast in one way or another. 2.) To support future products from the devs. 3.) The release price was too high.
Almost 50% of my list was at one point pirated probably.
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Every pirate will say just what you said :P
I understand, you want to test out the game and see that it runs correctly. But reviews can give you a solid idea of what the game is like (there are so many sources out there with many different opinions). And you're right, sometimes games are unfairly priced. But in particular, PC gaming is a very cheap hobby. Sales for steam keys happen left and right and so it's a matter of waiting until the right price comes along. Lets face it, the majority of people who pirate are impatient and careless.
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Price of pc games is matching that of console games these days. 60 dollars for a PC game is the norm sadly.
Steam is exactly my point. If you offer the consumer an unobtrusive DRM solution that adds benifits to the consumer, as well as set a fairer price people will buy your product. Its much easier to buy from steam, get a game you can trust will work, be updated, and be supported if you run into issues. You also dont have to worry about losing save games and, if steam was the ONLY drm allowed on its games, you wouldnt have to worry about things like install limited, additional drms and so forth.
Frankly if devs and publishers want to make bank, remove the draconian drm "solutions" and release their products on several online stores. Origin/Steam/Uplay (though I have no idea who prefers uplay to well... anything). Id be much more willing to dole out extra money if I could trust id be able to play my game in 10 years after changing my hardware around. People that prefer origin or steam would be able to buy those products legally and so forth. I prefer steam and so I dont buy games that use Uplay or Origin. If my collection of games was on Origin then id probably buy from origin.
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Indie games on PS3 for example, have to be bought through the Playstation Network. That's Sony's online store for downloadable content and small indie games. Sony sets the prices and if you want it on PS3 you have to pay that price, there's no other choice. Some of the games I got from humble bundles on Steam would have cost me 10x the price to own on PS3. So prices are still fair on PC. 60 dollar price tags on games don't last long unless the developers are as stubborn as Blizzard.
And yes, I agree with you that a single DRM like Steam is great, but as soon as other big time developers like EA and Ubisoft want a piece of the pie, they fuck it up with other mandatory DRMs for their games. I don't hate U-play that much because at least they've worked with Steam rather than against it like those fuckers at EA.
There's a reason you don't have an Origin collection of games, because there's only about 20-30 games on that sorry excuse of a service. It's so sad to see EA even attempt to compete with Steam. They have some quality games, but like you, I'll never buy them (not on PC at least lol).
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Exactly, it doesn't matter how good the game is, if someone is not gonna buy the game they are not going to buy the game no matter what.
I know people that wouldn't even pay 1 cent for the humble bundles, because their answer will always be "I can download it for free".
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Well skyrim sold well didn't it ? In fact it was a record breaker on steam. And even though I don't consider it a great game, most people obviously did and rewarded that. If they droped the price more they would get even more shitloads of money.
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They will. After Xmas sale. If you'd check that steamprices page, you'd notice Skyrim's price was reduced in October just to jump high in November, right before Friday Sale - I guess putting -50% or -66% on daily deal looks better then -25%...
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Skyrim did break a Steam sales record. That doesn't change the fact that thousands of people (who could have raised that record and supported the devs) pirated the game. Lets face it, Skyrim is worth the retail price given the amount of hours you get out of it, and yet pirates still decided to steal it.
How would lowering the price generate more money for the devs? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of exisiting pirates would still pirate it. Plain and simple, they would rather pay nothing. So in the end, the genuine players are giving less because the game is cheaper, and if you're lucky, 50% of pirates have decided to pay the cheaper price. Doesn't sound like a great marketing strategy to me.
The game is worth the money, it's just a matter of getting people to respect the way things work and earn what they want.
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My point is that piracy in unavoidable, but if you make something good which has appeal, you will still get enough money to make a good, even a huge, profit like skyrim. Or you can make a crappy port filled with bugs, day 1 dlcs and drm and when that doesn't sell good you can blame it on pirates.
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You said it yourself, piracy is unavoidable. Now my point is if all games lowered their prices, you would still have pirates but you would also have less profit. There would still be crappy ports filled with bugs and still have day 1 dlcs. DRM is a major selling point for people like me. I like to have my games on Steam. I like to have an official source for updates and features. Pirates are bad regardless of how you swing it, they don't need to play games, they simply want to. I don't care what gets blamed on them, the more the better.
I actually don't recall any company that has blamed poor sales figures on pirates. How do you measure the amount of pirated copies out there?
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Ubisoft has on more then one occasion said very clearly that certain games did not sell well due solely because of pirates. Which MIGHT be true, but id think their push for always online DRM and shitty ports might have helped.
EA also stated the Spores sales were effected because of pirating, which is true, however Id wager a fair share of those "pirates" actually owned a legal copy and just didnt want to deal with the harsh securom EA implemented which bricked optical drives, rarly, and prevented legal owners from installing and or using their product. Which is still a concern today with this and well pretty much every publisher these days.
While the margin of profit would be lower, for example if I sold 1 item at 100% profit, I made 1 dollar. If however I lower my price and sell 4 items at 50% profit, I've made 2 dollars, or 100% more.
Steam has shown over and over that if you lower the price, you will dramatically increase sales. Now, granted, IF you could somehow prevent piracy completely, lets say you need a custom hardware dongle w/e. AND people just HAD to have your product. Decreasing your price would not make any sense at all.
HOWEVER, in the real world, you cant prevent piracy, you cant expect everyone to want a full priced item, and you cant expect everyone to even remember your product when your competitor releases one next week. Its more profitable over all to sell 1m copies at a 10% margin, then 4k copies at 100% margin. Also add in brand loyalty and merchandising and so on and so on.
But now we are getting of base.
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Well they aren't exactly trying to be Steam. Plenty of their games are available on Steam and their shitty store (which I've never actually visited), doesn't seem to exist for any other reason apart from attempting to branch off on their own like EA. Unfortunately for them, they're wayyyyyy behind :D
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An example is Gamergame bethesda collection, people are spamming F5 to feed them money because it at discount, and they all run out of keys. If it is @ 100, gamergate wouldnt run out of keys. in short selling 100 copies of game @ $10 is better than selling 10 copies $60. it cost developer close to nothing to make more keys. So why not sell cheaper?
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If you sell games for $10 each you may as well make the game free. There's literally no way they can make a profit at that price if their game isn't popular. And if it is popular, there's no reason to make it cheaper because people are willing to pay the retail price. If you invest millions into creating a game, I would expect millions more in profit. You can't make that by selling the games at a sixth of the price. Sorry, maybe 2% of the games industry can.
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it is called volume. With enough volume u can sell enough to make a lot. take a look at movie industry, getting ticket to Cinema is cheap, yet they make millions/billions.
the developer would rather throw huge chunk of money on unnecessary marketing(billboard about a game? seriously?) + spending money on DRM than selling it slightly cheaper. If ur game is good it will sell well. Minecraft developer didnt spend money on market, why it sell so well?
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The total "volume" would have to be six times the normal priced sales in order to be at the same level. Think about that six times the amount of people buy the game. That's a hell of a lot of pirates coming clean and a ridiculous margin to assume contains pe
You honestly cannot compare the movie industry with the games industry. It works very differently and you're catering to a much more general audience anyways. And cinema tickets are most certainly not cheap where I live :S
You're talking as if marketing is a pointless waste of money for game developers. Minecraft sold well, but Call of Duty Black Ops 2 sold even better with a shitload of marketing and an extensive advertising campaign. I think Far Cry 3 is a better game but it didn't sell more than Minecraft. You can't just simplify it like that. A "good game" cannot be defined. A popular game can.
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there is definitely need a balance between that. This can be slowly archive by slowly dropping the price as u see confidence about ur product sales. I can also say selling a game for $360 per copy for to archive the same profit for six time less volume.
The key is getting the pirate to buy ur stuff. how to get six time more people? see the torrent, it is significant more seed than the game sales itself. Half of my friends bought steam games nowadays were once a pirate b4 steam exist.
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I am just showing that people are able to afford $28 on games. The developer neeed to prove that their games actually worth the money they are charging for most people. Charging $60 then blaming the poor sales due to piracy like Ubisoft did is just = refusing to admit that the market doesnt acknowledge your game is worth $60. Piracy or not is really depend on how much ur game worth paying for in the market's opinion.
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Same story, bro. I live in Russia, though, so it multiplies by 2. When I started playing computer games, there were 2 ways to buy games: pirate CD/DVD boxes for 3-5 dollars (some of my friends still buy them, lol) or original boxes for $15-30. Obviously, almost everyone chose first way, even though those version of games were shit (removed movies, shitty translation, and so on). So, I used to pirate games until christmas 2010, I guess. Then I bought couple of games on sale. I was so happy, because a game for $0.5 looked like a very good deal. 2 years later, today, I have almost 500 games in Steam, I don't play pirate games anymore and I enjoy Steam. So yeah, Gabe was right, if you make a good service and such great prices, people (mostly) will stop using pirate games.
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I agree with this guy fully, Explorer you are totally right.
I love to pirate games, Most of the ones I'll pirate are these 59.99 - 69.99$ clunks of shit that most of the time suck and have 3 hour gameplay time that they advertise as 12. They put in crappy gimmicks that make it harder for legit people to play it over pirates.
I myself have purchased many games recently, As you can check my steam thing - Most of which were on sale. I didn't mind paying 39.99$ for skyrim, as I felt that was a worthy price for that game. I Always try to support indie dev's. The next game I'm waiting to go on sale that I'll be buying is Farcry 3.
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Right because its impossible to pirate a MP game.
Modern Warfare had an entirely separate pirate community for MP which was BETTER then the original. Dedicated servers, mp maps, and mods and was just a joy play. People with legit copies and pirated copies played together and had fun. Hackers were tracked down promptly and banned.
Solution to piracy. Offer a consumer a deal they cant pass up. Give us a great game with no BS drm filled hoops or conditional purchases. I refuse to buy from EA or Ubisoft any longer. Limited installs? Additional accounts and DRM "services" on top of steam? No thanks.
Looking at Black Ops 2 selling a season pass for 50 bucks! Or BF3 or any number of games whos "full package" costs around or more then 100 bucks with little change in actual gameplay. Not to mention having to sign up for 4 different services to play your game, and then having to install DRM riddled messes that limit what you can do with your game or that actually screw up your computer. Things like secure rom actually disabling/frying your dvd drive, or Sony's rootkit fiasco. If I want to format my machine every other week, I shouldnt have to jump through hoops to make sure I can still play a game I bought more then 4 months after release.
So lets revisit.
Cheaper prices and or BETTER and longer games.
Paying 60 bucks for a 6hr story is bullshit.
Removal of DRM and extra services/accounts requirements.
I can only install my game 5 times? FUCK YOU I cant install my game anymore. I need to always be online? Fuck you. I need to sign up for 4 different services, giving them my information, credit card number, and other info? Fuck you.
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"Paying 60 bucks for a 6hr story is bullshit."
I guess you mean Dishonored lol.
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The surest way to prevent video game piracy is to refrain from making games.
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agreed you can't stop it. if you check skidmarkrows site they pirate every game even before official release if they get their hands on a copy. I use to pirate almost every game. I pirated skyrim like others in this post. It went on sale for 60% I hopped on it and tbh I only played 2 hrs in skyrim. If you check my steam profile I only been a PC gamer for 5 months or so yet I been buying games non stop now my pc has 0 pirated games and my steam account atleast 100 not to mention the DRM games off humblebundle and indiegamestand and desura. If you see the value your saving on a game that should intice you to buy it. If you can afford to support good games and sometimes bad games it shows the Devs that the community can respect good and bad games and will force them to 1. fix their crap game in the sequel 2. retire but retiring means another game will come up in its place and copy the good part n hopefully add some good to that genre. LoL started from Dota. Dota was a mod on warcraft and so forth..
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i think they should forbid sailing, that's the way to prevent piracy!
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The best way to avoid piracy, to a certain degree, is:
1.) Create a game that's worth "owning".
Create a really amazing game. "Game XYZ was so amazing, I bought it." is the best advertisement. Also, you can achieve such a thing with achievements, for example. Make a special achievement that can't be done like a walk in the park and certain people will buy it, to compete with friends and other players, just to get that badge or achievement. Leaderboards in general are - depending on the game - quite important nowadays.
2.) Put an attractive price-tag on it.
For example, Battlefield - Bad Company 2. I wouldn't have bought it on the first day for 50+ Euros. But the preorder-price was 42,99 Euros on Amazon.de, without any discounts. That's something refreshing, in a world where triple-a titles cost 55-60+ Euros, so I ordered it instantly. I got early Beta-Access and 2 special weapons for the final game itself. The only thing that disturbed me, was that the announced Onslaught mode was never released and that Battlefield 1943 never made it to the PC, so that coupon was useless.
3.) Continue to develop content for the game. And I don't talk about keeping content to sell it as additional DLCs. Put some new, additional content or game modes into free, future updates. If the core game is worth it, people will buy it because waiting for a cracked update sucks, especially when friends are already enjoying the new stuff.
4.) Build a community around a game. And then, continue to develop the game with the community, not just "for" a community.
People who play the pirated version won't be a full part of the community. They depend on the crackers and therefore are unable to participate in beta-tests and stuff. Most important: Listen to the community. When you have a fun-killing issue, focus on fixing that first, rather than creating new stuff to hide what you've messed up. (Yes, I'm look down at you, Ubisoft! dò.Ób) And off course, if you throw in some mod support, you might be surprised what your fans and players can do to improve what you've started!
5.) Make a more or less transparent plan on what you're working on.
Stop creating sequels and go a few steps back in time, where AddOns (real AddOns, not 3 simple DLC-Missions) were the real thing. Company of Heroes did pretty well. Would've loved to see at least 2 more AddOns before CoH2. And when it comes to addons, try to expand the game universe as well as the gameplay. Walking over and over through the same corridors you've already seen in the core game as the exact same character is boring. But giving it a twist from a different point of view, like in Half Life: Blue Shift for example makes it a whole new experience. Introduce new areas and items as well, and when everything fits together, you're on a good way.
6.) Guest passes.
You got a game that has got an amazing Coop-Mode? Great! Put a guest-pass for 1 or 2 hours into the game. If the coop-experience was fun enough, the guest-player is more likely to buy the game in order to continue the journey with his or her friend.
You can't avoid piracy completely. But publishers as well as developers can do certain things to make buying a game more attractive. Just throwing in a Multiplayer mode isn't the perfect solution. Neither is account-binding, shitloads of DLCs or some securom-whatever-the-heck copy-protection. Just focus more on the game itself, rather than on how to make money out of it. A game needs to evolve! Nothing is perfect from the beginning...
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If devs want to prevent piracy they need to put multiplayer in their games. Many many people pirate games that are most single player because it's exactly identical to the retail. If people pirate multiplayer games, then they won't get the multiplayer benefits(only cracked servers which sucks). So what do you guys think?
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