Yes But DayZ is far more popular than the games that do go on sale or in bundles early on, I do agree with you though I think they should hold out a little more it would probably make them more money and would respect the loyal buyers that brought it on day 1 a lot more, I hate seeing something I brought costing less then i brought it for, even if its a month later :P
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brought (past-tense of "to bring") >> bought (past-tense of "to buy")
[Brought to you by your Friendly Neighborhood Grammar Nazi.]
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I was actually watching Monty Pythons : Life of Brian , and there was a Grammar Roman. I repeat - A Grammar Roman. Go watch it - Life of Brian. You'll see him.
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I find it odd that you should instruct me to go watch a movie I've been familiar with since it first came out.
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Oh I was hoping to see a real comment not someone advising me on how to spell on the internet :P
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Yeah, what's going on with that?
I hate the DLC movement just because we still have the GOTY loophole. If they don't immediately buy the game, they are incentivized to wait until the DLC-inclusive GOTY edition is released.
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I have to agree on this wholeheartedly. It's the reason why I was so dismayed when I realized the Season Pass for Bioshock being 75% off was a mistake (Though, logically, bit early for such a massive discount).
They need to give larger Discounts on DLC, even if they ONLY have the DLC on sale at times, to promote early buying. I know I had no interest in picking up Borderlands 2 (or winning the base game) even when it had really good sales, because I knew that the GOTY edition would be out and cheaper than the DLC relatively quickly.
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Indie is one of the broadest game genres. They are not all platformers and they are not all retro. The vast majority of them have little to nothing in common. One of the only things they have in common is that their developers do not have publishers.
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I always told that a single bundle would be a great special offer, but too many of them would ruin the digital market, devaluing games too fast and making them basically worthless, both by perception of value and trade value. Ironically, bundles are raising a new generation of spoiled buyers. Still, better than pirating, but it can be a double edged sword.
The Dayz example is a little different however. The mod grew up a huge fanbase and there were a lot of expectations about the new version, so it's only natural that the alpha would be one of the most sellers.
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I don't know whether that's entirely true or not. I've spent more money in the past year buying bundles than I've ever spent in a year buying games before. I would estimate that I only play maybe 10% of the bundle games I buy, and before bundles started I would have only bought perhaps 1% of the games from Steam (and only if they were deeply discounted). Bundles are certainly making me spend more money and giving me a "collector's" impulse to buy even more.
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Here's a great article that I think that it fits the topic like a glove.
Cracked.com - 5 Reasons the Video Game Industry is About to Crash
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I've been saying this stuff for years (e.g. my response to ShackNews article #61911.) While I'm happy to see the message given more publicity, it seems unlikely that we will see a change in the current course of events. People can be so obstinate....
The good news is that crowd-funding has thrown a life-line to some of the industry's best and brightest. There may yet be hope.
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bundles saturate the market but at the same time allow games that other was be forgotten (due to a saturated market) a chance to be remembered.
A crash can occur regardless of quality if the market became saturated enough. Imagine everygamer took 9 monthes of buying games to play there backlog, industry would collapse.
Oh another deadly thing is focus groups,(and data harvesting of previous games) focus groups are poison people think they know what they want, not what they actually want, its not the same thing.
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The fixed cost of making a game would kill all indies games if they are forced to sell at the price it's worth. Most of indie game these days, sadly, cannot compare to the fun and quality that of in flash game booming era back in few years ago.
But as you have said, it is a business model, not value chain model. It is hard to develop something instantly good without much experience and resources.
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Day Z was hyped like hell, what did you expect? If it only was as simple as 'if your game is worth its price, people will pay for it', the world would be a better place.
I guess Call of Duty and Fifa are also worth their price every year when you look at the sales.
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Well DayZ standalone is certainly not the first game of its' kind to be released, so I'm not entirely sure why you call it unique. Unless you mean Call of Duty and Fifa are unique :P
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Yes, if you think DayZ and WarZ are on the same level of any kind you have no idea about them.
WarZ got pulled by THEIR DEVELOPER because it was so sheitz, the whole game's mechanics made it pointless to play it more than a few hours, and there were zero to none human interaction, because it was a mindless shooter only.
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Yeah but DayZ is in alpha and WarZ was presented like a finished product, I think that's a big difference.
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You said to introduce another game similar to DayZ and Drumoff did. Just because WarZ is a crap game doesn't make it dissimilar to DayZ.
And in case you didn't notice, there are plenty of other zombie survival open sandbox multiplayer games right now on Steam early access.
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I see, so if they make let's say ONE or more CRAP "copy" of the original -still unique- game, you won't call it unique any more, because there are crap copys of it? That's not a wise decision.
About those games. I can't name them, but I've checked them out. All of them are either very-very-very low/old graphics, or "block style", and most of them have no or very dumb phisix. Also those game have no (or useless) vehicle combat. /Yes I do know DayZ standalone does not have vehicle combat yet/. NONE of those games are combat simulators.
But seriously there is no game like DayZ, not in detail, not in "replayability", and if their anti-cheat, and proper server-side architechture works out no game will be even close to it, not even the mod.
I haven't bought the game yet, but I will as soon as there is a working vehicle combat system.
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DayZ standalone was just released... I believe you are talking about the standalone, NOT the Arma mod.
They had the ideas first but they didn't release it first. WarZ came out a long, long time before this along with many of the other zombie survival sims. So you're saying bad "phisix" (did you misspell this on purpose?) and different graphic style means a game can't be similar to another game. Okay.
I honestly can't believe you are using future features for a game in alpha to defend your position. The other games will likely see increases in graphics quality and vehicle combat, and more combat, etc in the future. So doesn't that just hurt your argument?
Finally, by your definition, every single game is "unique" because they all have features that can't be found in other games. The new CoD has dogs right? That makes it unique. New Fifa games have different players, right? Unique!
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No game will have improved graphics after they are released, especially indie games. I'm talking about what the mod had/has to offer against any other indie whatever joke, that you think are on the same level as the Arma's war simulator.
Seriously, did you even played ANY of the games you are talking about?
And your CoD-FIFA shitwhatever, really. If you don't want to use your brain in this argument you can just stop replying. None of the games that you consider equal to DayZ mod (or the standalone when it will have everything the mod has ATM) are NOT war simulators. Have BAD graphics, are just simple shoot-and-loot games.
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As I addressed several times, you think that having bad graphics makes a game not resemble another one? That's one of your major points. Seriously?
Seriously. You admit right here that DayZ currently sucks as much as WarZ. Maybe your point will stand in the future, but as of right now, DayZ is in no way "unique" as you say.
Sigh. I give up, you win. There's no point in arguing with fanboys.
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You call my a fanboy, because you are just dumb at even measuring simple stuff.
A game is not "just bad" because of bad graphics, but a game with BETTER GRAPHICS, is BETTER in GRAPHICS than the other game with WORSE GRAPHICS. And the game with BETTER GRAPHICS is considered BETTER compared to the WORSE GRAPHIC game's GRAPHICS.
e.g.: You have two games, with both the same gameplay, and everything, BUT the graphics. So if you take game A where the graphics are good, and you take game B where the graphics are garBage you SHOULD say that game A is better.
I tried highlighting the part where your brain should start trying, maybe it will happen once.
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I love your personal attacks. Makes your argument so much better.
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Oh, by the way, I don't think you know exactly what you're arguing anymore. Because I never said how good a game is based on graphics. I think you're pulling that out of thin air? I said that a game can be similar to another game even if the graphics are different.
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Hey, I can do that too!
Me) There are a lot of games like DayZ
You) No there aren't! Their graphics suck! Use your brain you retard.
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Let me end with the following:
The burden of proof lies with you, who brought up the hypothesis that DayZ is unique and "first ever released in this form," not me, Drumoff, zero33, or himohillo.
At any rate, there is no point in any more antagonism seeing as it's the holiday season. Have a Merry Christmas.
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Nope not a War Simulator (TM). Because apparently DayZ is a War Simulator (TM)
Also pfft. 2007? Graphic sux!! Need to have same graphics as DayZ or they are not similar!
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So many shit arguments I can't even stand gotta go before my brain melts.
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antipativome <-- spoiled bundle kid in a nutshell?
FFS the game is in early access, loong way from actual release and you are bitching about price and because they do not put in in the bundle WEEK after early access release? -_-
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YouTube is already full of gameplay videos, please watch something before saying this because trust me, what are you saying is 100% wrong. DayZ Standalone actually has a lack of weapons but just by only using the new inventory system/crafting you have so much possibilities/combinations that Mod will never reach.
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My argument is that people are willing to pay for something they like. And actually console gamers nowadays still shell out $50 for a game. In this day and age, I strongly believe that if a developer promises that his game will not be bundled in five years and will not give discounts more than 10% in the first two years, it will instantly become a selling point as long as the game is not too shitty.
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Strong shit arguments. You took ONE game as the final example why people should do it, and don't consider that it has another things that make stupid people pay the full price.
If indie devs stop selling their games in a bundle they will see their games became forgotten quickly. No one goes 2 years before in the steam index to see the games. Your point is just because you are salty of one or another game that you pay full price and them cebome bundled. Bro grow up, if you pay full price in the release, play the game and like it stop bother about the price other pay for it 2 months later. You are paying for the early access. PERIOD. Shit is your statements because "I LOVE MY MONEY" fuck your money.
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You do not have any education at all. And it seems that you can't really afford games, which is sad.
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Well, I have more games than I can play so I guess I can't afford. Now you put the final shit in your arguments trying to offend myself. If you can read I never said you're a shit person or anything like that.
Guess who can't deal with opinions?
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You cannot afford to buy most of the games available in the market. Don't take it personal, though. I am just stating a fact. If you are offended by this fact, I sincerely apologize.
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I find it hilarious you think commenting on someone's percieved financial situation makes you the winner of your little pissing contest.
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I hate this guy so much (I mean the OP) ...
I don't know if you know him, he comes to the forums like once per month to make a thread. A ridiculous, whining, ratting thread and usually insults a lot of people in his threads who doesn't share his stupid delusional opinions. :D
His threads can be sum up like this: Bundles are bad, very very bad, they are ruining the gaming industry.
He's so clueless. :)
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Thanks for remembering me.
I hate you just as much as you hate me. Fair?
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I'm not offended, I'll forget you by tomorrow or just will remember when I think in all dumb people that think money=power or think they are the only ones that deserve to have something because they have money. I can afford all games I want to play, and even if I can't afford the games in the market (games I dislike) I can afford making more giveaways than you.
I'm not salty as you or as stubborn as you. And I don't think there is a point of having 700+ games in library and not playing it at all... and it's strange because you are a member of bundles groups in steam.
Hypocrisy, that's all you have.
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For me time is money. For you it's another story.
I sincerely feel sorry for you.
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So you just spend money in games and don't play, fair point, seems like a GREAT DEAL
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wongheung was called out for being either a troll or ignorant a few months back (He made like 2 posts that got a similar reception). Don't waste your time arguing with him.
Nothing he has said explains games like CoD which is the same garbage pumped out over and over again, or that shitty WarZ game that actually sold decently well for how shitty it was. Everything is essentially about hype, and DayZ was hyped a lot. Wong mentions marketing but it gets lost in all that other stuff about a game needing to be good and all.
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So, to sum it up. You feel sorry for someone else not having much money. And for you, time is money. So, you decide to spend your 'money' on this forum... Makes sense... Well, according to you, you have that money to spend eh. Maybe you can create some more actual giveaways, if you are rich anyway. The best way to say I feel sorry for you is to help the other out after all, isn't it?
If anyone would consider this begging, I would take the consequence. But I think it's obvious enough I just don't like the attitude of wongheungwing.
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That guy fucked my money in the first place.
And I never say he has little money. But judging from his reaction, I may have accidentally touched his soft spot.
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On the other hand a lower price per game makes you sell more units and reach a larger fanbase, so you can make more profit in the long run (out of sequels, other projects and DLCs).
Big names and games people already like will sell anyway because of what they are: big names and games you like anyway. You said it: if you like a game, you'll just get it, no matter if good or not, no matter how badly the publisher is beheaving.
These don't really make statistic. Look at the "boycott MW2" initiative.
Once the units sold per day reach a certain point, you can adjust the discount (or bundle the game) so you gross the same amount per day (maybe more), and reach "extra more people", in a short amount of time.
This is particularly handy if you planned on releasing (or announcing a release) shortly after the sale. Advertising done right. "Look my new game! Not convinced yet? Try the first one for a little fee."
I think that if they promised that a game won't go in a bundle or get a discount in x years, that game will just get pirated like hell, not to be played but just to prove the point.
I wouldn't generalize, expecially out of a single game's situation. :)
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Pirate and Steam are two totally different societies. Steam gamers prefer Steam DRM to DRM free.
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That's why I specified "just to prove the point".
Personally if I think a game is worth playing, I gladly pay for it. But I do so when the price feels right to my pocket.
And luckily there's enough games I want to play that I VERY rarely have to buy at day1.
I think in the end it comes down to how the sales and bundles are used. In the Square Enix example it's counter productive (day1? screw that, I'll take -75% in 2 months), in a lot other cases it allowed me to try games that I would never have bought because they didn't feel to me as if they were worth the price ("wrong" genre, "bad" reviews, "looks just like a clone of that", etc).
I don't know if Indie developers can sustain a low-price politic. So far it would seem that good games still manage to get recognition and sell well, which is why I can't really be worried about the matter.
I see low prices on games I wanted and I gladly take them, while still have enough founds to try games I probably wouldn't buy otherwise.
I think this sums up my point of view on the matter, do what you want with it. :)
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On one part I do agree: going full retard on sales and discounts is counterproductive.
I'd never buy a Square Enix game at full price, even if I though it's worth it. I prefere waiting 1 month and get it -50% or 2-3 months for a -75%. The benefit for such a little wait is so big I can't ignore it. :)
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You get the point.
SE is notorious for heavy discount three months after release but they keep the ridiculously high prices for their Final Fantasy games in Android and iOS markets. Both Sleeping Dogs and Tomb Raider are 2013 games and they were already 75% months ago. It just cannot be crazier.
Many developers complain about the meager income generated by bundles that some of them even don't want to give free Steam keys as promised.
Actually, from my observation, getting a game properly translated into a language with big potential market is a good way to boost sales. Bundling should be the last resort in any circumstances.
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I think buying early is almost never a good thing anyways. First you have the massive discounts within a couple of months. Then you typically have a product with a ton of bugs to be patched out still. You're essentially paying to be a beta tester. The only reason that you buy early is if you truly want to play as soon as you get it.
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I think this only works on games with a large fan-base, so "not too shitty" is too loose. This would never work for indie games in general as recognition of the IP is important. There's just too many of them for this to be viable in the long-run.
I'm sure everyone knows CoD is making massive profits with ridiculous per unit prices and typically has no discount ever. People recognize the branding and expect a level of quality similar to previous titles. Because of this certain publishers can charge more. To me this is why games like Max Payne 3 and Tomb Raider are down to ($5~$10) now, fewer people recognize the game and are willing to pay up for it.
Day-Z here managed to get recognized by being first being a free-mod and secondly by listening to the community. They got a lot of free press thanks to all the WarZ issues and how they as a company managed that event might have been key to their success PR-wise.
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That only works if a game already has exposure or a large fan following. How does it work, for say, [Coconut Queen}(http://store.steampowered.com/app/38070/). Do you really think if the developer posts on the game page that it will never be in a bundle in first 5 years and never have more than 10% discount it would get ungodly amount of sales? No one would even see the message because the game simply isn't popular enough.
Oh, I have the game and I think it's quite good (same opinion with the other reviewers of the game), so it's definitely not a bad game.
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They might be getting all that money from stupid people, but they're not getting any money from me by charging 77 brl.
Not that'd buy it if it was cheaper anyway. And even if it was cheaper here, why the fuck would anyone pay more than $15 for something that was a mod?
Want to talk right pricing, how about a good game like Stanley's Parable. Sorry, I don't consider this "the right price", I just think people don't know how to value money. Someone should explain currency to them.
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Isn't the standalone supposed to be a lot better than the mod? I understand that it probably isn't that good now, in alpha, as it will be when it releases. Early access is supposed to be about helping the developers with the making of the game. I haven't played it, so I don't know how good it is now, but I don't think expect it to be GOTY material in the alpha stage.
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Sure, it probably will be better at one point, but it didn't attract me then, and doesn't appeal me now.
People who are buying Day Z probably don't really understand the concept of Early Access either. They just saw "HEY DAYZ!!!" And bought it without a second thought. Some might have fun playing a broken, barebones game even without knowing it isn't complete yet. It might not ever be a GOTY, but with the amount of Hype, who knows? Maybe reviewers will break down too. Haha.
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yep...the first time they told that it will be 14$ 15$ only...it hurts my wallet a lot a 30$ game...because i cant afford..in my country the dolar is near 9 pesos... so if i want that game it will cost me 30$dollars= 270 pesos... and IS a lot of money,at least for me.
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Check cost of live in india, and you understand, that it is sometimes better sell much more copies, for lower proices. Not many ppl buy indie games, when they will be without bundles, or extra discount. And yes doing discount too fast kill profits. You don't know, but for many ppl actualy price of DayZ is too high (for egzample me). Not in every country people earn enoght to have money to buy expensive games (so buy only bunles and at discounts). In Poland most people earn actualy around 300 dolars/month (and it is hard to survive for that, for normal live it should be 600$/month) and number of unemployment incresed over 13%, more and more places, where they do jobs are going bankrupt and closed.
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And you don't understand what I say?
I say, that indie games not sell well without bundles. Not many people want play games which are 2D, look bad, are short. Without bundles they sell much less that with bundles. So for them it is better. Sell more for lower price. Many of the games nobody will discover, without bundle.
For new titles DayZ, or Call of Duty Ghost it will be bad idea = kill profits. After sales drop much then it's time to discount, budle them to sell more (for that, who not buy earlier), without price reduction they not sell more. It is obviously to downloadable content. They don't must do new game and sell it, earn a bit more from exist, when normallly almost nobody buy it for previous price. So idea to bundle them or big discount isn't bad, when you do it in right time.
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The poland argument is simply wrong.Their GDP per capita at current prices is way higher than 300 dollar per month.Unemployment is around 10%.Higher than the european average,but still lower than your number.
And to the people who keep insisting that polish people pay western prices and receive eastern wages:Their GDP(PPP) is higher than their nominal one,therefore they are having eastern prices.
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I don't know but in most developing countries, nobody earns the "average income". Most people earn way below average and a small group of super wealthy people pull the average figure up.
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all i can say is theirs lies, theirs damn lies and then theirs statistics :), if poland were such a good place to make a wage half of poland wouldnt be in the rain sodden isles of ours doing our crappy jobs, theyd be at home doing them, i dont intrinsically care how many poles come to the uk. theyll pay some tax at minimum anything they buy which has vat on for instance but the fact is we do get alot of eastern europeans so they obviously like something and id wager its not the cusine the people or the weather, also your not taking into account cost of living, dunno about you by my gaming budget isnt a big priority for money coming in and bundles are the only way ill buy games outside the major sales on steam
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Most of the polish people went to Great Britain because it was one the first regions to promote themselves in Poland.This caused a snowball effect because people decided to go to Great Britain because they knew somebody there and the obviously preferred countries that were known to them for their actual good economy.
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Your comment is actually way off. As a person living in a neighboring country of Poland, I am pretty sure their wages are close to ours. If this is the fact, than they are still having 2-3 times less than people in western Europe. And your assumption about "promoting" itself in Poland is just weird, it is probably because of the somewhat more open nature of GB compared to the likes of France or Germany. And honestly, how can you pay attention to GDP per capita ? :D Where are you from again ? GDP per capita in the economy in middle eastern Europe is pretty much a joke, with most people getting minimum wages around 300-350 euro per month. If you do not know the actual situation, do not try to be smart about it.
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There are two ways to sell lots of games, advertising and advertising.
Its hardly ideal, but the fact of the matter is that many 'AAA' games oversell because of huge hype marketing campaigns, while indie games undersell because they might not reach their target audience.
The axiom of 'if it's a good game, you will get money for it' is true (just take Dwarf Fortress for example) But for many small devs just being in a bundle or sale is thousands and thousands of people reading about your game who otherwise wouldn't have ever glanced at it.
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We shouldn't expect for the game to be bundled in its alpha state. I've never seen an alpha game bundled, and I don't think I've ever even seen one in beta either. So that's a non-issue.
As for discounts, I think all developers should offer a discount on their pre-release games - not just during sales but rather for the duration of development. Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't feel graced or privileged to play pre-release games, and I don't see why we should be expected to pay full price when we are helping to develop the game (test for bugs, help develop hardware reqs, etc) especially when we aren't guaranteed a good game or even the game we'd been promised. In other words - if I'm putting up with bugs and participating in the development of your game then YOU should pay ME by offering me the game at a reduced price.
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You have right. For pre-relases should be cheaper, because buyer's don't know alll about game, which they buy. Good egzample here is minecraft. Lowest price at alpha, higher in beta, and higher after release (don't much difference form last betas). It let develop game without many own moneys, so big companies don't want do this. They have money for develop and test and prefer sell finished title at higher price, or release alpha, beta in the same price. They not need money for develop, they prefer bigger profits. So your should't expect that when they release beta it will be cheaper.
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And there are so many examples in the Groupees and Indie Royale bundle, as well as on Indie Game Stand.
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29.99 $ is the discounted price, beta and final versions will have a different price. A holiday sale discount would have been nonsense, since they are inviting people not to buy unless they want support developers.
Also, I don't know where you were looking so far, but that is how it worked always.
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Bundles aren't killing the industry, they're just an consequence of this crysis that have been dragging for quite some time.
Do the indie devs 'suicide' by bundling? Believe me: if they're bundling is because they're not seeling otherwise and they do get some profit from bundles. Its sad they're getting so little for their effort, but they do this because of the simple fact you're not buying their games full price.
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They usually bundle because after 1 or 2 months people stop buying their games, so the bundles are a new boost to their revenue and merchandising. Some games without bundle wouldn't pay the work devs have.
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Case in point: Time Gentlemen + Ben There Dan that bundle for only $0.44
People tend to be forgiving at that price, 2 indie games bundled for less than half a dollar.
I would like to see a graph displaying the ratio of sales before, and after the 91% discount.
Before discount: $4.99
After discount: $0.44 (91% discount)
Pre sale vs post sale ratio: ????
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As of 23 Dec 2013, DayZ Alpha Access has remained on the top of the top sellers list at Steam. Considering that it is only in its alpha stage, was actually a free mod, asks for 29.99 and ridiculously offers no discount at all during Holiday Sale, it is fair to say that its sales performance is a very strange phenomenon in the post-humblebundle gaming society.
So the message for developers is very clear now: if your game is worth its price, people will pay for it and there is no need to give 75% off discount two months after release or even bundle it with five other games for a dollar before its 1st birthday. Many developers who are not very good at marketing superstitiously believe in bundle strategy and sharp discount, unknowingly hurting their early buyers and loyal fans while at the same time building up a cheapass fan base who are not willing to pay more than one buck for five games. The result is that their potential profits are hurt as people simply regard previously bundled games as worthless, as clearly demonstrated at SG.
As a consumer, of course I welcome bundles and discounts over 75% off. I love my money more than the gaming industry. But any sensible people should understand that the bundle business model is not sustainable, especially for indie developers who just have one or two products. Bundles work for old games or games with a lot of potential DLCs. For games that rely heavily on one-time purchase, bundling is equal to suicide.
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