I doubt they will die, before they go to trial. I think most people want to see them face trial for what they did, not get a fast death, without having to answer for their crimes. Besides the fact, they will face the death penalty after their trial, so what is the point of killing them before the trial, when they are going to die anyways, after it?
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I never advocated killing suspects. You misread my message. It would just be highly convenient if they died before a trial (or even soon after). The fewer loose ends there are out there, the more the story can be spun for any number of purposes.
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2 idiots do something. A whole country blames a whole civilisation.
Sounds a bit like the morons who made "innocence of muslims".
Try and keep your persecution to the people that deserve it, not the 99%+ of people who had nothing to do with it and just want to live their lives.
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I think you'll find this interesting: Robbing Banks for the CIA.
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I do not know why I am in the picture...and AS A SUSPECT
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"there are no bins in most railway stations, most airports and many shopping centres in the United Kingdom"
http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/16xybc/arent_there_any_trash_bins_in_england/
so do not be surprised... ;-)
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That's the point. If something that doesn't usually happen happens, it's much more newsworthy. It's a big deal because it doesn't happen often in the US. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this mindset for a news network. If the same thing happened in any other 1st world country, there would be the same amount of coverage. The Norway bombing and massacre, for example, had just as much media coverage.
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I'd be willing to argue that there's a lot wrong with that mindset.
But more importantly, I want to know why Raiden is making a big deal out of it. I can't help but worry when one of the support people tries to be an amateur shock reporter.
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I never stated whether it's right or wrong. It's just the truth on how the media operates.
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Black hat is dead. White hat is on the loose.
Grenades, bombs planted all over the place, machine gun fire, explosions. Dead cops, complete craziness, I've been tuned into the Boston PD live scanner all night.
At this point, it's basically 9000 cops against 1 philosophy student. So far, this kid has outlasted ANY of my GTA runs.
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People listening to police radio heard the police identify the two suspects, one of whom is a philosophy student. However I won't print his name, as that information is now being contradicted, and AP is now saying the real bombers are two brothers from Chechnya. I have no idea what's true.
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i don't want to be a dick but this is a game site not a news site.
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I don't want to be a dick, but not everything has to be about games on a game site.
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Fine, click on the other 99% of the links that deal with gaming and not on the one link you want to bitch in. Let those who want to have a world view on current events have a place to discuss.
Next time, try to be a tad careful where you're clicking.
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You know on reddit, the first two threads about this on the highly read World News subreddit were censored because it was "US News" and didn't belong on "World News"
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I do mind.
Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.
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Fuck this. Seriously, I don't care what this people might have done, but they still have their rights to a fair processing and they are still people, posting photos of them would only lead to a fucking witch hunt.
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That's exactly what I'm referring to. Also if he'd really done it, people have no right to harass him. That does not make the any better than a killer.
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If you want to start a discussion I'd appreciate that you spurted actual arguments instead of mindless gibberish. But anyways, you are comparing harassing a still innocent person with fulfilling the law.
And jail should not be regarded as a punshiment but a way of reconducting people's behaviours.
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You're not from the US. In the US, prison is most definitely for punishment rather than rehabilitation. I would love to have it the other way around, but that's just not how it works here.
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I'm sad to hear that, I've always liked to believe on people's ability to reconsider and repent for their acts. And also I think that pushing a criminal even more by punishing them will probably cause they to reoffend.
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Recidivism is quite high here, but people still believe in this punishment system. What can I say?
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Amazingly enough recidivism is used as an excuse to focus on punishment over rehabilitation too. I wish there was a simple fix to the problem but the majority of Americans react emotionally to everything instead of rationally analyzing facts and data. Unless that changes I don't think there's much hope.
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It's not that amazing. Privatized prisons are on the rise (and are considered by some a leading contributor to increasing incarceration rates cough lobbying for SB 1070 cough), they have only to lose if inmates really are rehabilitated...capitalism, ho!
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I actually meant that it's amazing that the general public uses recidivism to argue in support of our current system. Privatization of prisons is another closely related problem though.
I'm pretty consistently amazed at the general public's ability to act irrationally. I'm not sure why it continues to surprise me but I think it's largely because the thought patterns of most people are completely foreign to me
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"If you want to start a discussion I'd appreciate that you spurted actual arguments instead of mindless gibberish."
I'd appreciate that you spurted actual arguments instead of mindless gibberish. Too. That was easy.
"But anyways, you are comparing harassing a still innocent person with fulfilling the law."
You said: "Also if he'd really done it, people have no right to harass him."
Do you think that when somebody kills on your eyes he is still "innocent", until judge says otherwise? Maybe he's innocent in the view of law, but in real world (in this situation) he is GUILTY.
Now imagine situation when there are no courts or police, e.g. after nuclear war. People kill each other on the streets. You think that we should just stand there and do nothing, because they are innocent and imprisoning them or killing would make us as bad as they are?
"But anyways, you are comparing harassing a still innocent person with fulfilling the law."
Law isn't anything better except it's widely accepted. How about different countries law? Or religious? Some of them accept stoning raped woman. Is it good, just because it's a law? In Saudi Arabia they can cut off your legs or make you blind. In US they can kill you, while in Europe it's "bad". Which law is the right one? Which one is fair over all? Or maybe justice changes if we travel to different countries?
And inb4, I am referring to this sentence you wrote:
"Also if he'd really done it, people have no right to harass him. That does not make them any better than a killer."
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Unlike you I tried to have an actual discussion instead of stating fallacious and demagogic statements. There, easy.
What is real world? And what use is in talking about hypotetical worlds where the actual laws and conventions of a rational society are not applied? Jesus Christ. As I've answered to Jatan already.
And strictly speaking that guy would be guilty of shooting at a police officer, gun carrying and explosive holding. But, even as likely as it seems to be. I don't really think he can be considered to be guilty of the bombing. Guilty as in legally guilty, not really guilty.
I don't really think I got your point in the other paragraph. To be honest. I might have to link you the Universal Declaration of Human Rights once more. There
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"Unlike you I tried to have an actual discussion instead of stating fallacious and demagogic statements. There, easy."
...like "If you want to start a discussion I'd appreciate that you spurted actual arguments instead of mindless gibberish", "PERIOD", "There's no room for discussing there".
You are the one who uses such manipulations in posts.
"And what use is in talking about hypotetical worlds where the actual laws and conventions of a rational society are not applied?"
The real world is the world where we know that police and courts don't work everywhere and they just CAN'T catch all criminals, because of lack of proofs even if they are guilty. Do you live in delusional perfect law world with 100% efficiency?
There are just too many cases when rapists ran away, because you can't prove they are guilty. What you said means that they are innocent, even when the victim actually knows the attacker.
And again:
Situation after nuclear war, people are killing, raping, stealing and there are no courts and police. You have no access to any law sources etc. You see that somebody just killed a child and took its food. He is innocent and nothing should be done with him?
"Also if he'd really done it, people have no right to harass him. That does not make the any better than a killer."
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So, using your last situation, how do we know that the witness who just saw somebody kill a child is telling the truth? How do we know they're not trying to implicate someone?
The situation you provided is not relevant to the discussion at all. We have laws, we have courts. While I have little faith in the legal system itself, a suspect is innocent in the eyes of the law until proven guilty and convicted and should be treated as such by the state. Things aren't black and white. Everyone deserves the right to a fair trial.
You can't just go around like vigilantes beating people up based on hearsay.
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"So, using your last situation, how do we know that the witness who just saw somebody kill a child is telling the truth?"
You are mixing both cases. If you personally saw it, then you know somebody is guilty. But if you want to convince the others, then you have to accuse him and court have to make a decision.
"The situation you provided is not relevant to the discussion at all. We have laws, we have courts."
In situation when no courts would exist we would have courts? Or maybe you try to tell me that with no courts justice would change? That's nonsense.
"a suspect is innocent in the eyes of the law until proven guilty and convicted and should be treated as such by the state."
You went back to the begging of discussion with ignoring all questions.
"Things aren't black and white."
Exactly, you can't punish criminals only with an imperfect law, there is much gray area and thinking that justice always wins is just silly.
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If you can't prove someone is guilty. He's innocent. I might have to rembember you some legal things such as Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat related to the Pressumption of innocence or that the onus probandi is often related to the fact that semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit
Also I might have to remember you that in dubio, pro reo That means, that in case of doubt. The accussed is the beneficiated. You can't declare people guilty with ifs and circumstancial evidence.
Also I love how you are trying to discuss how we should handle justice in a world where, wait there are no courts nor police. Also don't play the martyr on me, your posts are full of demagogery.
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"If you can't prove someone is guilty. He's innocent."
In the view of law only, you can personally know somebody is guilty. http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/guilty, "culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing"
I already gave you an example of being guilty on 100%, when you see and know the murderer.
"handle justice in a world where, wait there are no courts nor police."
Suddenly police started to have 100% efficiency and courts never ever are wrong. Imagination.
"Also don't play the martyr on me, your posts are full of demagogery."
You are doing it again and again, you just can't stop with such comments and focus on the topic?
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Whenever you stop to make stupid analogies I'll focus on the topic.
I though we were talking about law all the time. Personal opinions have nothing to do here. Also I love how you ommitted the following part.
Can you exactly tell me what has to do with police and judges making mistakes with your fantasy world where there's no courts nor police and you are trying to use to compare it with a world where there is?
I think someone skipped a bunch of logic lessons at school.
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I do agree with you Wotjek, to an extent. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 18 years. Although the society is a mess, and perhaps the public beheadings are a bit extreme, the crime rate is very low. In Europe you hear about people getting stabbed just walking down the street and people going back to jail for their 50th time. Fear works as a deterrant for crime in Saudi Arabia because of how embedded religion is in their society. People are afraid of more than just an axe, they fear god. Unfortunately, this form of punishment would have the opposite effect if it were implemented in a country such as the UK which is much more free and protects criminals with "rights". It's a very tricky topic for me, but I think that law in general should be feared rather than be merciful.
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So are you sure that's the cause? Do I have to remember you that correlation does not imply causation?
For example, let's take the example of Detroit, the city with the most murders on the US. And also we could observe it's one of the cities with a higher afro-american population. So, then. Is the presence of afro-americans the cause of the high level of crime? Or it's rather the fact that Detroit is a depressed, decadent, almost ghost, city. You tell me.
Also for example there's no death sentence here in Spain and according to this is one of the countries with less attempted murders per capita.
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I never said anything about correlation. Saudi Arabia is unlike anywhere else in the world. In fact it sticks out when compared with the rest of the world. I simply stated a fact that exists in that country.
Why is Detroit a depressed and decadent city? That's the only question I would ask.
Trying to compare a specific country is pointless. Every country has different cultures, different social standards, different economies, and most importantly, different laws. You can't take a system that works in Spain and apply it to the rest of the world. Just like you can't take a system that works in Saudi Arabia and apply that to the rest of the world. It's a dead end.
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You implied it. There's a lot in communication about what is not said.
Well, I remember Detroit being one of the most important industrial cities in the world and now a good part of it is abandoned.
I know that you can apply things nor understand or analize things out of their context. But no matter what do you, think or believe. There's nothing above human life. You can't simply take it off. Weed it.
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They're posting this for a reason. There isn't any prefect solution. You either try to find them yourself (which you might fail at, and then the suspects escape without punishment), or you tell the public to help (which can be very effective, but as said, might lead to undesirable consequences).
It is all about the nature of mankind. Can we do things other than hurting each other?
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I'd rather have 100 culprits free than a sole innocent condemmned, or as it's happened with his life ruined.
Also I might add that In dubio pro reo and Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat so organizing a witch hunt on someon who might be innocent is stupid at the very least.
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I agree on none to be honest. They are suspects yet so they are innocent. People don't know where to draw the line and also everything is quite heated so you'll never know how the public will react.
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The problem with your argument is that the people who singled out that innocent man were not in any way related to the FBI. I don't agree with the internet and media making up suspects, but law enforcement looking for tips is a different story.
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I never said they where, but once people are asking to collaborate, there would be stupid people out there seeking for revenge, trying to lynch everyone they consider to be a suspect. Add to the mix thay they are likely to be stupid armed people, you got a nice cocktail for mayhem there.
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I can't say that I necessarily agree with this. Any system is going to be imperfect and ultimately blame innocent people unless you drop the justice system entirely. Obviously the goal should be to try and minimize miscarriages of justice but that's also inevitable. I think one of the biggest flaws (in the US at least) is that there's an assumption that the justice system is flawless. Even with overwhelming evidence that an innocent person was jailed it can be next to impossible to get the decision reversed or the case retried. Actually admitting that mistakes happen would make the justice system far better than it currently is.
Of course politics play a large role in this. As I mentioned earlier, most of the public reacts to things emotionally and will view releasing prisoners as being "weak on crime". Being weak on crime is a death knell for a prosecutor's career and so they basically have to become unwavering in their commitment to punish as well as unwilling to admit they may have made a mistake.
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This is why they shouldn't be posrted on the news, internet or FBI's news board until we know they're guilty. Nobody really cares who it is, as nobody knows them, so there's no actual need for us to get a name anf face of those who might, or might not, have done it.
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"as nobody knows them"
What? Everyone is known by somebody....
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What? I'm not sure I understand your point.
"those who actually knows the persons will know they're in custody"
????
How will these people find out if the names and pictures arent released?
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If you know a person who's in custody, you'll most probably learn it from friends or family first, before you read the headlines. It's not as if whoever gets taken to custody gets kidnapped without a trace until this information is released to the public.
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I'm not sure I see your point. You say that nobody cares because they don't know the suspects. That is blatantly untrue.
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Some might care, but how does it actually improve your life to see the picture of a person who might, just might, have killed people, before the police know it themselves?
Out of respect of the person(s), their friends and relatives, this information could be held hidden, at least until or after a trial.
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I don't agree. The police/FBI were actively looking for the person (not even as a "suspect" at this point, but as perp) and were trying to get tips from the public.
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I haven't followed this case very well, so perhaps you're right about them wanting tips about their whereabouts, and then it's OK I guess. But I'm speaking more generally, when peoples faces are posted as "the terrorrist/murderer of [Insert name here]" before any hard evidence.
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"I don't care what this people might have done, but they still have their rights to a fair processing"
Why are you granting laws to people who don't respect them on their own? They don't accept people's rights, thus they don't deserve them.
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That does not work that way. Rights are undeniable for every single person no matter what they have done, are doing or will do. Period.
Moreover you are also forgetting that they are only suspects this far. Nothing has been proved yet against him and they are not guilty of anything until a judge says so.
Laws are there to be fulfilled, if they are not it's the police and judges work to establish the approppiate measures. Not for you nor anything else.
An eye for and eye and we will all end blind.
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Hmmm... one died in a fire fight with the police after hurling bombs from an SUV. Pretty sure he's not going to trial anymore now that he's dead. You're saying the guy is most definitely innocent because a judge will never be able to pass judgement?
At any rate I'm pretty sure the FBI only posted the photos after they were absolutely certain these two were the bombers. They havent released surveillance footage, but I'm guessing they saw these brothers drop the backpacks, which then exploded later on in the footage.
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Well I'm really sad he died because he should have been tried and then imprisoned. And, once in prison, serve his time there. But I think we could assume that as he was involved on a firefight he was quite likely to be culprit of at least that.
I've never agreed with death sentence so I don't think he should have died.
And also, if I'm not mistaken, many people are not following any instructions of the FBI but hopping into people they consider likely to be involved there, which is not wise at the very least.
Moreover I will always think that starting a witch hunt in an armed country after a terrorist attack is not something I'd consider advisable.
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But you said only a judge can say if he's guilty or not. People who die in the act of a crime obviously will never go to trail, hence no one can say they are guilty.
So how would you have taken care of this if you don't think he should have died? You would just stand there and try to negotiate when the guy is throwing bombs and shooting at you? I don't think things work that way. I don't believe in the death sentence either, but if the police are in grave danger, they have the right to self defense just as all of us do.
I'm also not saying a witch hunt is a good course of action - I definitely do not think it is. However, I see nothing wrong with the FBI posting pictures of wanted suspects. Honestly, if they do post pictures, it must be for a good reason.
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I do believe in self defense as long as the good you are trying to preserve is better than the harm you are causing. And as there's nothing better than human life, best you are protecting either yourselve's or someone's else if you happen to kill somebody.
And strictly speaking that guy would be guilty of shooting at a police officer, gun carrying and explosive holding. But, even as likely as it seems to be. I don't really think he can be considered to be guilty of the bombing. Guilty as in legally guilty, not really guilty.
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Well I'm really sad he died because he should have been tried and then imprisoned. And, once in prison, serve his time there.
You make it sound as though going to prison makes a difference. The amount of re-offenders in the UK alone is shocking. And "serve his time"? So he eventually gets released? I couldn't disagree with you more Mr. C. A convicted mass murderer shouldn't be allowed to live in the luxury of prison, protected by the rights he has exploited, and living off the taxpayer's hard earned cash. The amount of damage he/she has caused cannot be un-done or forgiven. A lethal injection is humane, unlike the convicted felon.
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Prison is no luxury. For God's sake, you are prevented from the only think that makes us different from animals, freedom (I hope there's no deterministic around here today)
It's no vacation period. You make it sound as it was something closer to a price. And breaking the rights of others does not prevent you for having those. Those rights are undeniable and universal, if someone breaks them he'll have to answer to justice. But always having in mind the Universal Declaration of Rights.
Also there's nothing good out of a death sentence. First of all it's not really clear if prisoners suffer when executed, secondly it's proven not to make any difference in the amounts of crimes happening and third, there's nothing more important than life. You can't prevent someone from living, life is sacred. Everyone has their right to live. EVERY SINGLE ONE, death is irreversible and unkown to us, and for god's sake. You don't aim to punish people, what I would like the prison system to do is to make those people able to live in society again.
Also,
Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.
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Prisons in the UK = luxury. Prisoners get a warm bed, a roof over their head, three meals a day and they don't even need to pay rent! That's better than the standard of living in most African countries, perfectly innocent people who even go to Church everyday.
Everyone is entitled to their rights until they decide to take away someone else's rights. I'm not arguing about the process. By all means, everyone is entitled to a fair trial, a hearing, a verdict, the whole package. But how can you honestly give convicted killers rights that they have taken from others? Protecting those that would do harm or have done harm to others is just flat out wrong. Lets say someone you know was killed in a terrorist attack. You would respect the killer's rights and accept them back into society after a period of change? Maybe they might walk into your pharmacy one day and you can help them out. Even have a chat about how much they've changed. You said it yourself, "death is irreversible". Perhaps they should have thought about that before they decided to take an innocent life.
I would certainly aim to rehabilitate as many people as possible, but all of them? That's a fantasy world. There's a line that once crossed, cannot be re-crossed. Once the crime has been committed it cannot be un-committed. Once someone's rights have been violated you cannot un-violate them. The "bad guys" will always win as long as we indulge them.
As amazing as Lord of the Rings was, I feel this is more appropriate:
Crime cannot be tolerated. Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding.
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You are forgetting that they are prevented for being free. And that they are humans. Also, I'd appreciate if you weren't demagogic from now on. Thanks.
Every one is entitled to their rights. PERIOD. And yeh death is irreverible, that's why you don't fucking want to create more of it that there already is.
And in your particular case. If they show that they are suitable to live again in society, why not? There was a bombing like 100 metres from where I live and I do not hold any particular thillr of revenge to the attackers. There's nothing to be gained from that
An eye for an eye and we will all end blind
The bad guys don't win, there's no winning or losing, justice is no competition. Also I would not say Rha's Al Ghul or whatever he's called could be a suitable role model.
Moreover
To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice. Desmond Tutu
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I don't think I've been demagogic at all and quite frankly I find that quite offensive. I'm trying to give a point of view that is reasonable and ultimately gives my interpretation of fair justice.
I'm very surprised at the amount of resistance you're giving me. Your respect for human life is how I wish the world worked. But it's human nature for us to feel greed, jealousy, anger etc. No amount of rehabilitation can take those away from us. If you want to keep the murderers alive, go ahead. They'll serve their time in prison after some bizarre form of rehabilitation, and potentially do the same thing again. Due to the absolute nature of death, you cannot potentially put people's lives at risk. Once it's done it's done. I would do everything in my power to minimise the risk of people's lives, instead of respecting people who already made their choices. You can explain to the families of the victims that all human life is sacred and they should forgive the re-offender.
I mentioned "a line that should not be crossed" but apparently you don't see a line. I wonder at which point you'll find that line or maybe you never will. Perhaps if they kill 20 people? What about 100? You have to draw a line somewhere for the sake of "justice". A word that I sense you don't use too often. Ghandi used that quote in a specific context, revenge. Revenge does more harm than good, whereas justice does more good than harm.
Rha's Al Ghul was right about many things and wrong about many things. That quote was one of the smarter things he said. Not that it matters though, because we're all human and all have the same rights, right? Batman should have saved him at the end of that film so he could end up working in my local bakery.
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I considered your speech about people who go to church and africans a bit demagogic to be honest. I did not want to offend you in any ways. And I'm sorry if I did so, it's never been my intention. It's true though that I sometimes have quite strong views on many subjects.
And I'm showing resistance because I simply cannot concieve a world where to try to ammend a death another one is caused. It's like trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline or stopping a truck by throttling it.
And you can't judge people on what they potentially can do. You can judge people on future acts. You simply can't .Also there's no room for backtrackin if death penalty is applied, if there's been an error, you sir are fucked.
Where is my lack of using justice being patent? I will go back and refer to the Tutu quote again To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice. I used Ghandi's in the very same context as he did, talking about revenge. Also I could throw quotes at you all day long.
Matthew 5:38-42 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Luke 6:26-31 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
There's no point of trying to heal pain by creating more pain. No point, Jonex.
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It's water under the bridge now. I'm sorry if I came across as being careless towards human life. I'm really not. I would continue but I think we've both had enough so thanks for the discussion and the fancy quotes.
We should hook up sometime to have some angry sex (I've heard it's great).
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Prison seems to be pretty luxurious in some countries. Norway, for example.
Also, let me preface this by saying that I do not support the death sentence in any way. HOWEVER, if a prisoner will be in prison for the rest of his/her life, in super max solitary, potentially tortured, he/she may feel death is a better route anyways. Solitary will eventually make someone go crazy, might as well go out when you are still a rational human.
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As I've said I think that the final end of imprisionment should be to achieve rehabilitation. But yeah. I do see your point there, however.
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A lethal injection is humane
No. There is nothing humane about state-sanctioned homicide.
Also, what happens if you get the wrong person? What happens if there is even the tiniest bit of doubt that he/she did it? Oh, they're dead. Too late. Oops.
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Its more humane then some thing BUT far from actually being humane....if that makes sense...O_o.
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Let me correct myself, "A lethal injection is *more humane."
I don't like the idea of taking a life for any reason, but as long as people get away with it, how else is it supposed to be reduced? How can I prevent the next murder?
And what if there's irrefutable evidence that they did? I don't want the death penalty to be used often because it IS a horrible form of punishment. But it should still exist because there will always be some crimes that are simply beyond reason.
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"That does not work that way. Rights are undeniable for every single person no matter what they have done, are doing or will do. Period."
As I already wrote in previous post:
Which rights? The ones that let raped woman to be stoned? American law that lets killing prisoners or torturing them? Etc. Law is only a point of view and justice doesn't change if you cross the border.
"Moreover you are also forgetting that they are only suspects this far."
I didn't mention Boston case in my post, I'm referring to granting human rights to people who don't accept them and hurt the others.
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Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not ring a bell to you?
Human Rights are undeniable and universal. PERIOD. There's no room for discussing there.
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Human Rights were written down by a human and not everybody accept them. Doesn't it ring a bell to you? PERIOD.
They are nothing better than just >more< universal law, not any higher good. Example:
These rights still can change in the future. I bet if they were written 2k years ago, they would be way different and based on religion instead of nowadays countries laws.
PERIOD. There's no room for discussing there.
PS until you start discussing normally I will copy every manipulation you add. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.
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They can be valid, but you can't force everybody to use them. As I already gave examples above:
You were raped by a friend. You can't prove it. Do you say he is innocent and nothing should be done? Like you can't beat him up, because "human rights"?
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I already told you, that you have no proof. He is free, happy and ready to rape more people.
How it should be handled... In reality we would be able at most to beat him up, threat him or inform his family/friends, if we only had a small amount of proof (but not enough to get him convicted). Best imaginary solution would be castrating him, of course I doubt anybody would be able to do that, but I wouldn't protest if somebody could.
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Rape is a particular crime that leaves some proof. At the very least you can launch an inquiry.
If you had a small amount of proof, what does that mean? You have enough proof to beat him up but not enough to convict him? I don't understand that at all. Would you feel good if you beat up someone who didn't commit a crime?
But lets say you do beat him up and his "innocent" friends hear about what you did. Does that give them the right to come over and beat you up for beating him up? What happens if you beat up his "innocent" friends as well? Lets say you accidentally kill him. Whose fault is that? The govenment for allowing you to beat him up or yours? Trying to solve violence with more violence creates more problems than it fixes.
Castration is most likely more barbaric than the actual rape. The world is meant to be moving forwards, not backwards. Sentencing them to death would be reasonable, but the big word here that can change everything, is proof. There will always be doubt with every crime, so your proof has to be overwhelming.
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I would say that most cases of rape aren't reported. Anyway how are you gonna prove it even couple days after it, when you washed up in desperation?
Small proof, like the admission on paper for doing something to a girl, but obviously without naming it. This is worth nothing in the view of law, just a clue.
"Would you feel good if you beat up someone who didn't commit a crime?"
If you don't KNOW that he committed it, then why the hell are you beating him?
"Does that give them the right to come over and beat you up for beating him up?"
First of all that's not a 'right'. Involving the others obviously requires any proof. Let's say it's not enough to get him convicted - yes, he deserved some kind of punishment. And if this guy allows punishing by beating on his own, then there is no problem.
"Trying to solve violence with more violence creates more problems than it fixes."
I didn't say that we should take justice only in our hands, but there are cases when it's the ONLY solution. Even some policemen can tell you to do it on your own, when they can't do anything.
Some example from my country - there was one guy in village that threatened everybody, was stealing, beating and even hurt a child with a screwdriver and her father with a knife etc. He was in jail couple times before that. Police didn't do anything with reports, they just ignored case. After some time people finally had enough, they beat him up hard as he died after couple hours. They were convicted for MURDER, BUT with extraordinary mitigation of punishment - only 4 years for murder.
If it's bad to act on our own, then why even law allows mitigation of punishment? Maybe because law accepts that there is justice besides it?
"Castration is most likely more barbaric than the actual rape. (...) Sentencing them to death would be reasonable"
Seriously? Because if we would give them a choice, I'm sure than more than 90% of rapists would like to live and chose my option.
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Oh come on. Based on all those answers I can see that there's no reasoning with you. I've tried to give logical reasons against what you're saying but you've either deliberately misinterpreted them, or just made up an unreasonable assumption for the sake of opposing me.
Good luck Batman, you're going to need it.
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Which answer you don't like? If I don't agree with you, then it's bad, because you are right and I am wrong? Why you ignore my points?
In some cases judge even convicts you as guilty, but refuse to give any punishment, because what you have done wasn't really anything bad, but still against the law.
Oh come on. Based on all those answers I can see that there's no reasoning with you. I've tried to give logical reasons against what you're saying but you've either deliberately misinterpreted them, or just made up an unreasonable assumption for the sake of opposing me.
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In some cases judge even convicts you as guilty, but refuse to give any punishment, because what you have done wasn't really anything bad, but still against the law.
Excuse me?
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If you understood my questions and answered my questions, I might have given you a proper response. Instead you jumped in feet first and answered your own interpretation of the questions. Which means I have to go back through everything that I've already written just to correct you.
The fact that you haven't agreed (even in the slightest amount) with ANYTHING that ANYONE has said, is the main reason I won't continue to waste my time with you.
Have a good day Batman.
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: Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now...and so we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector...a dark knight.
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What's punishment? Why do you seek punishment. Why do you need to cause more harm.
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Let's say it's not enough to get him convicted - yes, he deserved some kind of punishment. And if this guy allows punishing by beating on his own, then there is no problem.
Hey guys! Not enough burden of proof to convict this guy, let's beat him up!
I didn't say that we should take justice only in our hands, but there are cases when it's the ONLY solution. Even some policemen can tell you to do it on your own, when they can't do anything.
I'd love to hear more about this.
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Yeah, sure. You should be able to beat someone up. That's assault and battery.
The telling everyone and threatening him is perjury and threatening someone.
Then castrating him, torture.
You just commited 5 crimes to compensate for one. I don't think I see the beneficial part.
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Good luck with enforcing the law. Batman.
Jesus Christ. You should do a course on reading comprehension. That or stop ommiting what does not suit you.
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You can't beat him up. You can't. You'll be commiting a crime, an agression. You can defend yourself as long as it's proportional and not desmesurated. But once it's over you can't gang up on him and beat him up.
And yeah, if you can't prove it. Well, he's innocent.
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"Some example from my country - there was one guy in village that threatened everybody, was stealing, beating and even hurt a child with a screwdriver and her father with a knife etc. He was in jail couple times before that. Police didn't do anything with reports, they just ignored case. After some time people finally had enough, they beat him up hard as he died after couple hours. They were convicted for MURDER, BUT with extraordinary mitigation of punishment - only 4 years for murder.
If it's bad to act on our own, then why even law allows mitigation of punishment? Maybe because law accepts that there is justice besides it?"
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Are you even familiar with laws? There are many cases where punishments are mitigated or even exempted from the punishment. He could have alleged insuperable fear or something like that.
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Universal declaration of rights is there and now. Morals change, I know, you don't have to be the brightest tool in the shed to realize it.
Now there's a universal (applicable everywhere or in all cases, in case you didn't know) declaration of Human Rights. And it has to be followed. I'd suggest you read it.
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Sorry, I have to agree with wojtek858 somewhat here. I do believe in Human Rights, but I also believe that it's something that's made up by humans. As time passes, "human rights" do change, especially with regards to who is actually covered under these rights. For example, slavery was a very common practice before the 19th century.
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That has nothing to do with what you said.
Which rights? The ones that let raped woman to be stoned? American law that lets killing prisoners or torturing them? Etc. Law is only a point of view and justice doesn't change if you cross the border.
MrC was talking about Human Rights, a universal declaration and concept. You started talking about individual laws in countries.
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+1
Whats up with this even being a discussion....
Thats like if you were accused of murder and you actually didn't do it but there is no way to prove that now because they were like "Lol you did it, no rights for you, no trial lol..." ...thats fair? Wow.
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There's a thing called legitimate self-defense, another called state of necessity, and another called animus salvationis
You can stop a killer on your eyes, as long as the good you are preserving is better than the damage you'll be causing.
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I can't tell if you arr trolling honestly, so I will just say no, I did not, thats my opinion.
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So I'm guessing you have a problem with the FBI's most wanted list?
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I'm not sure how that list works to be honest as I'm not familiar with it. But if it includes people likely to be innocent I would (I doubt that though)
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If the FBI fully believes that an individual is responsible for some action, as in this case, I see nothing wrong with them posting pictures of the suspects and asking for tips. I'm pretty sure this is the way police operate all over the world - if they have no leads, they ask the public for tips. And these tips do help. I'm not going to dig them up, but I know for a fact there were many cases in which the police only managed to catch a suspect due to civilian tips.
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I do know cases however in which a certain person was considered to be guilty, showed on one of those things and lynched by the people only to latter discover she was completely innocent.
I do think they could be useful in certain situations, but you have to handle them with great care as it's really easy it can get out of hands.
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I assume police or media posters though? I'm probably wrong, but I think the FBI has a pretty good track record.
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What, you know more of what should or not be discussed in this forum than one of the moderators that is part of the staff of it?
tellmemore.jpg
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Congratulations on becoming a pariah in the community for crying about a topic you could have just ignored. The forum is for general discussion. Of anything. Just because you wish it was only game-related does not make it so. It just makes you a whiny, self-centered prick.
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Thank you Mr.Putin.Without you young Caucasians cannot move to US or become a students of many universites,like MSIIR,MSU,SPSU,HSE and others by bribing on USE.Thank you for ethnic crimes,for raping your women by Middle-Asians,for increase of drug addictions,for 282,for if you're nationalist you're Hitler,for cheap and bad working power from Middle Asia,for supporting Caucasus regions.Today mosque situated in Grozny can become one of symbols of Russia,Thank you for this,Mr.Putin
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Don't make Putin mad. He'll raise Russian Steam prices.
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7News Streaming information Been watching this for a bit now.
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From what I've read there is a video of one of them dropping "the package", but they decided not to post it publicly because reasons.
If you know. Running from police guns a blazing and dropping bombs in your wake is not a proof enough something is fishy.
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The kid circled in blue was the 8 year old who died.
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There's a lot of jerks playing internet detectives and interfiering with the investigation. That's where the evidence is.
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Yeah, I agree! The FBI is interfering with the investigation. Those FBI internet detective jerks really need to stop interfering with "the investigation".
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I was refering to this Don't try the straw man on me, jatan please. If you want to discuss something I'd glady do it but keep it logical.
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Not straw man! I never said you were wrong :P
Edit: I was also being sarcastic, if you couldn't tell
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Most of the time it's quite difficult to tell whether one is being sarcastic or not. You would be astonished at the amount of people who state unveliebably silly things and actually mean them.
Sorry :(
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Clicky
EDIT: Bomber gave up and surrendered.
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