the german taste for blood is so ingrained in their evil nazi natures even its depictions must be carefully controlled. they're trying, cut them some slack. its like reformed teetotaler vampires even the sight of it is dangerous :0D
(its more like pitbuls, they're the friendliest dogs ever(the dog in the little rascals even) and until the 1920s pitbulls were the family dog if you had small children. then they got a bad reputation for some reason and now nobody ever feeds them raw meat just in case.)
although...the fact so many germans are going so far out of their way to see nice red blood....
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"I can't think of anything they would find offensive in that game" .. may I remind you about the companion cube and what players that have completed the game have done to it.
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that's why in the German version its not an incinerator, it's the "happy place hatch" :P
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Its not that the DLCs for the censored german version of Sleeping Dogs are not available, its also that the german version isnt patched...so beware of getting that.
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I managed to get the uncut version. I think at least. Traded with some guy from another country. I do that with all censored games. I don't pay full price for censored crap.
Edit: Consedering we have to pay more anyway. 9.99$ = 7.25€. But no, we have to pay 9.99€.
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Don't forget there are countries in the European Union with low GDP. They have to pay the same price in euro. average and minimal wage is far lower here. I don't know how much do you or your parents make in a month but it's at least four times bigger than the amount people make eastern from there. And you still...
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it costs more in the UK but considering that the minimal wage is four times bigger than here it's not much. you don't have to pay a four times bigger price. You have to pay a bigger cut of your payment for a game here. plus you can always buy games on amazon if that's what you want.
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It's absolutely retarded. Plain and simple. I live in Germany right now and it is ... just retarded. I never get censored versions if I can get around it. Luckily I have enough friends from other countries who are willing to help me with that :)
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they're the descendents of a penal colony for prisoners with deferred death penalties too numerous to keep in mainland england. their obsession with knives is warning enough their government felt they should keep an eye on that.
(The beer creates a soothing stupor to assuage the terrible visions of blood and carnage that plague the dark subconscious of the australian people. (Germans love beer too. Infact after ww1 france's bullshit treaty shenanigan made germany too poor for beer.....so so many problems were caused by france's bullshit treaty shenanigans, just look at the middleeast, if anybody should be guiltridden over wwii its france for causing it. (if only middleast and shitty africa had more beer...)))
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its about blood and they're oversensitive about nazi stuff, (and based on gog's fallout drugs too?). i think america's rule is dumber. infinite blood but no tits(not that i want games with nudity but it seems an odd place to draw the line when vivisection and movies best described as "torture porn" are fine)
to be fair tits so rarely legitimately come up in a story(unless you go out of your way to shoehorn dick into the scenes like game of thrones) while violence is harder to leave out(regular violence, like stabbings not the hostel movie sort of thing)then again seeing skin vs seeing that skin removed...the later is clearly worse right?
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The US is the same about nudity/sex in all forms of media... But you can watch officer Alex Murphy get pieces shot off of his body for quite a few minutes and it's fine for kids to watch... o_O
I will say this now, that scene from Robocop screwed me up FAR more than seeing a pair of tits at the age of 6/7 in 1987...
I can still VIVIDLY remember that entire murder scene 26 years later but I couldn't describe my last girlfriends boobs to you more extensively than "they were fairly round (more tear drop like), with nipples"... o_O But I can picture the look on Peter Weller's face when Red Forman/Clarence Boddicker, shoots him in the forehead.
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"Think about the children" is a very poor statement for almost anything.
When I was about 7 year old, my parents fell asleep with the tv turned on with some fellatio porn. I just thought it was a weird thing and that's it. That sight didn't broke my poor little mind and it didn't affected me in any way.
And it pisses me off when people say that prostitutes shouldn't be on the streets because of the children, not because of the ruffians behind them. I wish they saw those women as children do, just as someone who is feeling cold standing on the street for no reason.
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Robocop is rated R. If you were 7 at the time and your parents took you to see it that is their problem for being terrible parents. You couldn't have bought a ticket for that by yourself, bought it on home video, or rented it at most non sleezy video stores.
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hurray for the american hypocritical thinking which allows blood but if they show a pair of tits even for a minute,it suddenly becomes an evil thing
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There is no logic when it comes to the censoring/rating of video games in just about every country on Earth.
Germany and Australia immediately jump to my mind... >_<
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I live in Germany and I can confirm that we guys never bleed! We have never seen blood before.
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oh no, now they will for sure discover that we germans are all nazi-vampires!!
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What most got wrong here is that the glorification of violence is banned. Blood is fine, but when it becomes excessive and there is no real content in the game, then I dont think people are missing anything anyway.
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Germans simply care about the fragile minds of children ;)
Since video games are easily accessible, an online store like Steam can only sell uncensored versions to German customers if they verify the age of the buyer. Since Valve does not implement such an age verification all German customers only get censored games.
Uplay store is circumventing this by selling censored games only after 10pm.
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It's not as if any game with blood and/or violence is censored by default. it's more of a "a silly mom or a silly dad report a game to the Bundesprüfstelle and then the Bundesprüfstelle decides whether or not an uncensored version may or may not be distributed to minors".
So probably no mom/dad suggested to censor Postal 2 / Dead Space up until now, so don't give them ideas.
Edit: Postal 2 has a PEGI rating of 18 - so I guess it's an overlook on Steam's part. if someone decides to complain, Steam will most likely remove the game for Germans. same for Dead Space.
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the funny thing about it is, that activating uncensored games is always an option, just not buying uncensored games.
So by trading with a Russian you save money and you get an uncensored version. it is as if Valve wants us to trade games
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I wish I thought about that before. I am doing this now, trading with people from other countries I mean, but my favourite game (The Darkness II) is still censored for me because I bought it via Steam, sigh...
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I tried but I haven't found one by now. It's a bit annoying but I'll keep searching.
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Yeah, I know that Darkness 2 is heavily censored, they removed a lot of the finishers (I've read through the article on schnittberichte.com)
Luckily, the Amazon version activated just fine and uncensored :3
btw: you can always ask Steam support to remove the game from your account, so you can activate an uncensored copy.
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Really? That would be great, I didn't know that, thanks for the information! :)
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just keep in mind that a removed game is really removed, you don't get a key/a gift or or money back.
I did that with Hitman: Sniper Challenge, where the first key I activate became region restricted. but shortly after I got another key from a Square Enix promotion (which I could not activate, because the region restricted version was occupying my library). So I asked Steam support to remove the game and then I could activate a working key.
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Yeah of course, makes sense. I didn't expect it to be otherwise.
Okay, thank you!
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nothing of what u said is actually true. someones mum complaining never is the reason for a game being censored. every game gets test played and rated by the usk. if they think a game is too brutal for 18+ the publisher can either resend them a cut version or it goes to the BPJM for them to judge if it can be allowed to sell at all.
Postal 1 and 2 are on the index (means not allowed to be sold by german stores to anyone) since they came out. so they is only legal to get them from a foreign seller. which means valve can sell it to us.
Dead Space is uncut and not on the index cause u are only killing non-human beings in there. That is totally okay here in germany, even when its a blood and gore fest^^
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I hope you're german. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJrVo0OOtAE
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Well, I just checked Sniper Elite: Nazi Zombie Army and surprisingly, not available in Germany.
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so what? i am german, and i have nazie zombie army 1+2. xD
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Censoring a game is the decision of the publisher
same with sleeping dogs DLCs
Dead Space back then was pushed through the system, they paid 3 checks for the USK stamp til it got "Keine Jugendfreigabe" on the third run, avoiding indexing that way.
Postal 2 is indexed in germany and I am quite surprised that one can buy it on Steam cause it should not be like that. Maybe authorities didnt notice yet.
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"Decision". well, the alternative is to not be able to sell it in Germany (at least not in online stores w/o proper age verification).
What would you do? Invest 10 hours to change a few lines of code or say "F* it" and not sell a few thousand copies of your game?
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EPIC Megagames, id software (w/o Bethesda) and other companies don't publish their products in Germany. In general. They rely on the Germans importing their stuff.
Censoring Portal was only Valve's decision. The alternative would have been selling it uncut to all Germans. Most publishers/developers prefer to invest 10 hours to change a few lines than 3 hours evaluating if the game would be fine in Germany. Also by your logic there should only be Disney movies at the cinema, since R rated movies couldn't sell as much.
Especially in Valves case they could sell their games much better, if they would care - since they offer the only one shop for their games. They don't care. They prefer to cut. Now people import the EA OrangeBox from cheap traders.
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Sorry, I messed that up. Anyways id software doesn't sell any cut versions via steam, although there are USK16 versions of their non-ZeniMax-games (which were published by Activision). The same goes for Epic Games. They could sell the German versions via steam, but they don't. They have decided to let the player import their games.
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I don't get your cinema comparison.
In the cinema the person selling you tickets does the age verification.
The movie industry decides their target audience, there are enough movies for children and enough for grown ups.
It's not as if there's a cut version of the Matrix movies that was only produced for Germany, so every 6 year old can watch it and the ticket person no longer needs to do an age verification.
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There actually is a cut Matrix version for FreeTV, since it can be broadcasted earlier than the uncut FSK16 version. To be available to more people.
I made the comparison to show that you have a choice with your decision. You are right, that a cinema always does the age verification and Valve does not (btw it doesn't even check if it is selling USK16 to people younger than 16). But Valve isn't the only distributor available and similar to the movie industry the game industry decides their target audience. There would be enough games for children and enough for grown ups, except that the game industry somehow thinks it has to sell games intended for grown-ups to children aswell by censoring them.
The missing age verification causes a lot of trouble for publishers/developers (especially smaller ones like Tripwire) and of course for the grown up players. Valve is to blame for that. But in the end the only one responsible for a censored version of a game is the publisher. And providing "German versions" does not really encourage Valve investing in an age verification system. Of course it may be a tough decision for smaller companies to pass on your German military androids with black coolingliquids for minors, but I'm really missing some initiative from the publishers/developers here. With all these crippled versions available on Steam, I don't feel they actually want to have their products uncut.
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It still is their decision. Often games get way too much cut just because it might get indexed, and sometimes it gets just cut to get a lower age rating. The latter isn't something restricted to germany, the Max Payne movie is a good example for that.
Not being able to sell a game openly on the german marked never stop ppl from getting the game.
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you should do some research about the difference between being on "index" and "beschlagnahmt"
being on index means it cant be sold in germany. "beschlagnahmt" means that u are actually committing a crime posessing a copy of that game!
very important difference, and it could cause u a lot of troubles not knowing the difference!
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Vielleicht solltest du dich einfach informieren, ich helf dir mal.
Eine Beschlagnahmung wegen Gewaltdarstellung (und von nichts anderen reden wir hier bei Steam spielen) erfolgt über StGB §131.
(1) Wer Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), die grausame oder sonst unmenschliche Gewalttätigkeiten gegen Menschen oder menschenähnliche Wesen in einer Art schildern, die eine Verherrlichung oder Verharmlosung solcher Gewalttätigkeiten ausdrückt oder die das Grausame oder Unmenschliche des Vorgangs in einer die Menschenwürde verletzenden Weise darstellt,
1.
verbreitet,
2.
öffentlich ausstellt, anschlägt, vorführt oder sonst zugänglich macht,
3.
einer Person unter achtzehn Jahren anbietet, überläßt oder zugänglich macht oder
4.
herstellt, bezieht, liefert, vorrätig hält, anbietet, ankündigt, anpreist, einzuführen oder auszuführen unternimmt, um sie oder aus ihnen gewonnene Stücke im Sinne der Nummern 1 bis 3 zu verwenden oder einem anderen eine solche Verwendung zu ermöglichen,
wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
Durchlesen, verstehen, kapieren warum der alleinige Besitz für den Privatgebrauch nicht strafbar ist.
Eine Indizierung ist Sache des JuSchG, speziell §14,§15 und §18 bei Spielen
Die Rechtsfolge daraus ist ein Werbeverbot und ein eingeschränkter Versandhandel. Die Spiele dürfen nicht mehr öffentlich beworben werden, daher das heißgeliebte "OOPS" von Steam. Postal 2 ist auf der Liste A und ist davon genauso betroffen wie ein Dead Island.
Aber glaub doch was du willst, wenn ich mir deine Steam Library anschau, glaubst du ja selbst nicht dran.
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Besitz für den Privatgebrauch ist natürlich erlaubt, aber sofern wir hier nur von Steam-Spielen reden greift der sowieso nicht. Steam Subscriber Aggreement 2.A: "The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software."
Die Frage wäre jetzt, ob der Download (und somit die Erzeugung einer lokalen Kopie) einer beschlagnahmten Software, die sich Dank Steam Agreement nicht im eigenen Besitz befindet, theoretisch wieder als strafbare Verbreitung ausgelegt werden könnte. Ich glaube allerdings nicht, ein Richter würde es so auslegen...
Nebenbei: Wenn ich recht informiert bin, sind Return to Castle Wolfenstein und Commandos wegen Volksverhetzung beschlagnahmt worden und nicht wegen der Gewaltdarstellung. Beide gab es auf Steam. Wobei das auf das gleiche hinausläuft, außer dass die Strafe höher sein kann.
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Hui, wieder was gelernt. Ich dachte immer "beschlagnahmt" ist gleichbedeuted mit darf man nicht mal besitzen.
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Besitz für den Privatgebrauch ist nicht verboten. Nicht bei Gewaltdarstellung und auch nicht bei Volksverhetzung. Du darfst es aber niemandem zugänglich machen oder zeigen. Verkaufen oder Verbreiten schon gar nicht.
Daher ist auch der Import möglich.
Generell müssen ja journalistische oder historische Recherchen etc vollkommen gewährleistet sein (im für Spiele relevanten Fall). Bis zu einem gewissen Grad kann man sogar über beschlagnahmte Titel berichten, aber da dabei die Schwelle zur Werbung schnell erreicht wird (man verbreitet den Namen und muss halt aufpassen, dass man kein Interesse weckt) bewegt man sich da auf extrem dünnem Eis.
[PS: Ich bin aber auch nur Laie - also alle Aussagen ohne Gewähr ;)]
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I would like to suggest you guys to visit the "for UNCUT!" Steam community group. A group that tries to encourage Valve to implement a safe age verification system for adult German Steam users. The goal of the age verification is to give access to games, which would otherwise be censored or not available at all to those persons who have successfully proven their age.
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such age verification system would only allow access to games that are not sold on the german store (for example Dead Island). Cut games would still be cut as that is the version the publisher puts on the market and uncut versions are imported.
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if there's a cut and an uncut version of the game, an age verification would allow German customers of 18+ to buy the uncut version. they don't need to be "imported", we're talking about digital goods here, both versions are already on Valve's servers.
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I don't know about the laws in this case, but I had a conversation with someone from the Bundesprüfstelle and they told me that Valve would be allowed to sell uncut games if they had an age verification - let's hope the person who told me that knows the law :P
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well, what he said does not negate my post, neither does my post negate his statement ^^.
Tbh this is all far more complicated, I should have said it like this:
The only thing I know for sure is that we would get games that are not sold on the german marked because of indexing. I do not know about games that are sold on the german marked as a cut version
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True, games on the index may not be advertised publicly - that means no store page. No store page means probably that we still could not buy it, even though it would be legally okay. (Unless Valve does present us with a store page ... cough ... Postal 2 ... cough)
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Censorship is always beyond pointless. As DRM does, it only hurts legitimate, paying users and of course does nothing to curb those looking for the content elsewhere. It only helps to make the forbidden fruit more desirable.
I don't think the German youth would turn into the Hitlerjugend by killing a few zombies dressed in nazi uniforms.
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Portal 1 is cut by Valve for the German market. Nobody except Valve claims, that Germans shouldn't play the uncut version.
Max Payne WAS indexed for its selfjustice motives and aesthetic use of violence (bullettime). It wasn't banned. It's just for adults only and should not be accessible to minors. That it is "indexed" also means, it shouldn't be advertised to minors. Since 2012 it is no more indexed. It wouldn't even get indexed in the first place, if it was released today as it would probably get an apropriate rating (see text below).
I don't know DeadSpace 2 very well, but if it doesn't let you kill human-like enemies, it is actually pretty safe. As far as I know it is still for adults only.
Generally you are bringing up games from different decades. There are two institutions in Germany that take care about this stuff. The BPjM is an old institution that can index and ban (very very rarely) any type of media that isn't rated and incites people. In the 90ies there wasn't a red line for games, since there was no institution to rate them and the BPjM could only index/ban stuff, but not rate it. Especially when games like Mortal Kombat and Doom were released the debate on violence in games started and since violence isn't necessarily inciting people but also not suitable to minors there were some hard decisions being made. Germany reacted on its problems and introduced the USK in 1994. You might have seen its logo. It rates games. As long as it rates a game ("not suitable for minors" is a rating aswell), the BPjM will not even start to discuss it.
The USK grew stronger in the last decade and got more rights (which is good for the gamers), but the damage was done and most publishers and developers prefer to censor their games or do it like EPIC and ID Software and don't even sell them in Germany.
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Protect our youth by censoring 18+ games. totally makes sense!
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censoring is not indexing.
Putting a game on the index is according to JuSchG, so it cannot be advertised anymore in any form. Censoring is done to get a rating from the USK and avoid indexing.
Censoring is a publishers decision to sell their games, indexing is for youth protection.
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try reading their description about usk there
still saying that censoring has nothing to do with protecting the youth? :)
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And the worst thing: It is impossible to play Dead Rising 2: Off the record. Capcom has prohibited Steam from selling/activating/patching/playing it in Germany. Only way to play is if you use a proxy every time you start the game. All the other Dead Rising titles are banned from public use and therefore selling too, imported copies of Dead Rising 1 work, others need proxies as well.
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what? im playing dead rising 2 with my german steam account for ages now. and DR1 was released console only!
Off the record might have had some troubles, but if you traded you a row complete pack to get it, its also working perferctly fine for germans.
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According to the store page there's an IP restriction that prevents the game to start if you try to start it from Germany. I can't verify this claim, but I guess it's there for a reason.
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I guess nazi simbols, but my best bet is because of the blood.
I guess they did so this thing won't happen
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Americans don´t like nudity and tits, Australians don´t like drugs/alcohol and tobacco, Chinese don´t like politics and and other stuff..
So our country can´t deal with zombies and too much gore^^
I think every nation got its own weird rules =)
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it has nothing to do with german law.. it's only Valve etc ... The bann of Max Payne 1 in Germany was removed 2 years ago - and still you can't get it from steam etc... same as the other games... it COULD be sold uncensored (it even SHOULD) but Valve doesn't want to integrate an age-check...
funny: Postal IS still banned in Germany.. and it can be bought... strictly against the law...
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I have several German friends that I used to play L4D2 with. They toned down the blood for their versions, but of course it looked normal on our end. I guess to make up for it, the German version had more weapons when playing on Steam, a bunch of stuff from CS:S, which we (in the States) could see and pick up and use. After a while those friends just started getting someone in the US to buy the game for them, and gift it to them...and that way they got uncensored games.
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thx for insulting the german youth in general. just cause this has happened like 3 times in germany doesnt mean that this is the reason for censored games. there were much more school massacres in the U.S. for example yet the only censor tits there^^
also censoring and banning games started in the early 80's where those school massacres happened in the late 90's/ early 2000's!
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Portal 1, Half-Life 2 + Episodes - censored
Sleeping Dogs DLC, Max Payne 1 - not even available
POSTAL 2 Complete, Dead Space - completly uncut
I just don't get it. And these are only a couple examples. Can anyone explain this stupid logic to me? What exactly does a game need to be censored or banned from germany?
Also, I'm curious about your opinion on censoring/banning games. I'm sure most of you think it's pointless, like I do.
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