Absolutely ridicoulus.
- I'm in Europe. I wipe my butt with ToS
- They can't tell us HOW should we give our gifts. That's just not OK. It's borderline illegal where I'm from.
Comment has been collapsed.
Don't expect them to comply unless your country or the European Union legally forces them to do so. You can mock and sneer their terms of service all they want, and even point out its illegality under EU law, but that doesn't change the fact that you will have to oblige by their terms in order to receive support until legal action is taken.
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't have to anything. If they refuse me support when I need it because I broke ToS in a way that is legal in my country (giving a gift to a stranger chosen by a random-number-generator website such as this), damn straight I'll take them to court. In a heartbeat. Even Steam gave in to the pressure recently. I doubt Humble will be stronger.
Comment has been collapsed.
Steam gave into international pressure from the entirety of the European Union, not from some (and with all due respect) random nobody with all the legal weight of an indistinct civilian in whatever country you're in. If you wish to take them to court, then you can; however, it would look petty on you, it would sour your relations with the company, and it would likely fail anyway due to the legal costs it would demand (they can afford better lawyers than you can).
Feel free to try. If you win, then post it on SteamGifts for all to see. It'll certainly come as a surprise to everyone.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why do you think EU and Australia pressured Valve? Because some of us random nobodies realise they have this thing "consumer rights" and complained. Complained and EU had to react. Because it's their job.
Comment has been collapsed.
Perhaps so, but unless you form a coalition or organization—or numerous complaints are filed, numbering in the thousands or tens of thousands at the very least—it is doubtful that you will make much progress. It's already unlikely enough for a single user report on Steam to be noticed by Valve support. Amplify that to an international level and it's far less likely. I wish you luck in your endeavor, but I don't have much hope for its success.
Comment has been collapsed.
One is enough to get the thing going. With your kind of logic we'd never get anywhere with a legal battle against any kind of company. Good work, mate. Let's get shat on because they have more money. Consumer rights are dying off because people are stupid enough to assume that stance and never fight for their rights.
Comment has been collapsed.
No, I'm saying that your single-soul crusade isn't the sweeping reform you try to make it sound like. Despite the chances of your dissent growing into a movement (which are pretty low already, even with focused effort on your behalf), you are an individual filing a complaint against a multinational company.
If anything, I'm more criticizing you on your excessive zeal and the fact that you act like you possess more legal weight to throw around than you actually do. My "logic" is that you're sounding like a tough guy when in reality, you're a nobody with all the voice of a gnat. Vociferous clamor is found among crowds and communities, not lone voices. If you want your voice heard, organize a concerted effort to oppose such terms with others who share your sentiments. But acting all high and mighty just makes people want to deride you.
Consumer rights are being eroded due to overreaching corporate influence and lobbying in government legislation. It certainly isn't "dying off" and if anything, consumers have far more freedom of choice now than they ever have before. They just seem to be dying out because corporations are beginning to fight back and are beginning to succeed.
This isn't a matter of "stupidity", but realism. You are being unrealistically arrogant in your power in the international, corporate stage. If you wish to make a difference, I recommend starting a petition or creating groups on your preferred social media sites to garner support. Acting like a serious contender in international economic affairs, however, just places you in a position of scorn.
I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just explaining that my original criticism was aimed at your fervor at wanting to stick it to Humble Bundle.
Comment has been collapsed.
tl;dr - if your rights are being broken, stay silent and make petitions. Yeah, that'll work </sarcasm>. You're probably thinking about a class action lawsuit. Petitions don't do jack. CALs do.
And EVERYTHING starts from a single person.
You're acting like a single person has never won against a company. There is precedent. This is why ToS exist. This is why Americans need "this cup is hot" warning. Because a single (stupid/smart) person CAN go and win against a multinational company.
They may have much more resources, but they're not above the law.
Comment has been collapsed.
No, I am not saying that and I'm beginning to think you're trolling me. Petitions are indeed very effective and they don't cost a dime. If you wish to pursue a class action lawsuit, then that is your decision. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing so. I am, however, trying to inform you that you are being derisively arrogant. Unless you actually plan on pursuing legal action, in which case do so rather than bitch about it online, you probably shouldn't be making empty threats as if anyone is going to respect you more for shaking your limp wrist in the air.
I am not acting like that. I am acting like you are full of it and should maybe tone down the zeal before people start mocking you.
But fine, live your fantasies of grandeur. Until you actually seek legal action, it's probably best to not whine like a discontented child. Have a great day and good luck.
Comment has been collapsed.
So wait. You're saying I am arrogant for expressing my opinion and saying that I'll pursue legal action IF I NEED TO, instead of suing HB right now.
So I have a fantasy of grandeur because I said that HB can't tell us how to distribute our gifts instead of suing them for something that hasn't happened yet?
I've been trolled. "Petitions are indeed very effective" hahahahahahaaaa if that was the case, nobody would seek litigation.
Comment has been collapsed.
Simply expressing your opinion is far different from acting like you have Humble Bundle by the balls. I'm saying that your tone was arrogant, and therefore the way you expressed your opinion was arrogant, because you spoke like you could discard of the terms of service like it was no big deal. You literally stated that you wipe your ass with them. That sounds very arrogant indeed.
You have a fantasy of grandeur because you insist on your legal weight being disproportionately the size of your actual power in the legal system. Any class action lawsuit would be expensive and arduous, and would still have a significant chance of failure. To act like you can simply flick your finger in their general direction and have the lawyers scramble to your defense sounds awfully pompous of you, as if you are more grandiose than you really are.
Yes, because I'm the one trolling here. What a novel and original tactic, to be a troll accusing another of trolling. At least you confirmed my suspicions. I hope you're trolling for your own sake, since being legitimately this inept is a serious concern to your livelihood.
Don't expect another response.
Comment has been collapsed.
I CAN wipe my ass with ToS where I live. That's the LAW! In EU, ToS are worth less than the HDD space they take up - literally. They never hold up in court, unless signed by both parties (full name and date). Where I come from a company isn't more powerful in court, sure, they can hire better lawyers, but if they are breaking the law and the court isn't bribed/dumb, that won't help.
PS: You whipped out the troll first, so sorry mate. Now you're coming off as a hypocrite.
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't disagree with you, Nokkenbuer, but you clearly have no idea what trolling is.
Comment has been collapsed.
At this point, it's more polite to accuse someone of trolling than telling them they are legitimately stupid. I give the person the benefit of a doubt and assume they're trolling—that they aren't really that dense—as a courtesy, since the other option is that they are really that dense.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'll illustrate the issue. If you buy a car and give it to a "friend" and they come back to you saying it was stolen, you don't go to the dealership asking for a new car or refund. You'd have to hire a lawyer to subpoena Steam for the account info of the person who redeemed the key and take that person to court. The only thing HB is required to do is provide a legit product and they do.
Comment has been collapsed.
But it was my car to give and my right to give it away. HB has no business telling us what can we do with those gift links and keys. That's my point.
Comment has been collapsed.
Even so, the dealership (Humble Bundle) is not obliged to refund your secondhandedly stolen vehicle (the product key). That is outside the authority, interests, or scope of the dealership; the same is true for Humble Bundle. They may not be allowed to tell you what to do or not do with your purchases—and I don't believe Humble Bundle really is, since they are not threatening to terminate your account for breaking their terms of service—but they are fully within their rights to deny service to someone who violates their terms, especially when the request involves activities they cannot feasibly perform.
What I don't understand, however, is whether Humble Bundle provides support in matters of gifting. If they do, it seems unreasonable to disallow the giving away of the same products when there is no meaningful difference between the two actions from the perspective of the company.
Comment has been collapsed.
This is a completly different scenario and it's besides the point. My point is that HB can't tell us how we distribute gifts, and you just keep arguing against that. Why?
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm explaining why Humble Bundle is appropriate or at least understandable for refusing to provide support to those who break their terms of service or give away the products they purchase. I don't believe Humble Bundle is telling anyone how to distribute their gifts; they're only ceasing support for those who do so in a way which violates their terms.
I believe this is hypocritical if the same conditions are not applied to any sort of gifting, but it is unreasonable to act as if their refusal to use their own resources to support whatever decision you make with your purchases is an infringement on your basic human rights. You purchased a product from Humble Bundle; they are not required to support your purchase for any reason beyond refunding or technical issues, both of which only apply under certain circumstances.
Comment has been collapsed.
So basicly you're saying it's ok for them to refuse support if I give my gift away here, but it's not ok for them to refuse support if I just email a random email.
Great logic.
Comment has been collapsed.
No, I didn't say this. I said the exact opposite directly above. Are you even reading what I'm saying?
Comment has been collapsed.
It was edited from before you responded. Not everyone is out to get you. Are we through here?
Comment has been collapsed.
Let's agree to disagree. You won't convince me not to pursue legal action if or when a company tries to screw me over. I don't care I'm just one person. I wouldn't be the first one to win, I wouldn't be the first one to be ignored.
Comment has been collapsed.
I never tried to convince you otherwise. I tried to explain to you that your tone made you sound like a cocky pissant. If the reason for our disagreement is because you fail to grok my point, even after I explicated it multiple times, then there is no point in trying to argue with a brick wall.
Comment has been collapsed.
And instead you basicly kept saying "you're just one guy, so give up because it's absolutely hopeless".
Comment has been collapsed.
They're required to follow their TOS because they're an American company. Gifting may not apply to EU citizens, but HB isn't required to state that. If HB penalized you for gifting then you'd have a case against them.
Comment has been collapsed.
ToS is not legally binding. Not even in US. It's treated as such, but law always takes priority. Too bad most people don't know that, and companies claim it's not like that.
Comment has been collapsed.
They are legally binding. They're considered a contract. As long as they don't violate any laws they're valid contracts between you and the service. Laws may limit what companies can enforce on you but that's a regional thing and rarely invalidates the entire contract.
Comment has been collapsed.
For a paper to be legally binding, there has to be a name of both parties, a signature, and a date. ToS lacks two and a half of these. However, USA is being silly and well... screws over the consumer by ignoring that. Thankfully, most of the world isn't USA. But even in USA, if a piece of ToS contradicts the law, it's not going to hold up in court.
Comment has been collapsed.
You're wrong on all of those points except the last. If you feel like hating the world of business feel free to read these:
http://www.polishcontractlaw.pl/
http://legal.un.org/avl/ha/ccisg/ccisg.html
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32008R0593
Comment has been collapsed.
Sorry, not reading these. Two reasons.
- I'd rather remember what I heard in court when I was fighting a mid-sized company.
- I'm leaving for work in 5 minutes. No time.
Comment has been collapsed.
You're telling people what the laws are and I show you the written law and you still refuse to accept. lol
Comment has been collapsed.
I can't refuse something I didn't read. I will. When I get back from work.
However, judging from your post, there is information that contradicts what I'm saying, and I'm saying what I learned through practice, and not a random amateur looking website.
PS: UN has very little legal power. It's a tremendous organisation, but it's not what EU listens to. It has member countries with contradictory laws. And somehow there's no problem.
Comment has been collapsed.
HB has to say what they told you due to game publishers demands. It took years for HB to back away from one-key for all games and offer gift links because of game publisher demands. EU laws say for the most part licenses are property so that is what gives you the right to gift the keys to whomever you want, but HB doesn't have to provide support beyond what the law requires. Essentially somebody stole your key and you're asking HB to act like police to recover it for you or reissue you another one. Not even EU laws would require HB to do that. You could do a chargeback to get your money back and force HB to revoke the keys, but then you'd be banned from HB. That's why HB tells you there's nothing they can do for you once you provide links to people. Somebody also stated that somebody might have guessed the link page but that is essentially impossible.
Edit: If the person didn't lie/steal the key it is entirely possible that somebody had access to their email account and stole it that way.
Comment has been collapsed.
The problem is that HB themselves confirmed that the key was accessed prior to the gift page being redeemed - the key had already been stolen by the time I sent the URL to my winner. So either somebody brute forced it(which means HB have not provided sufficient security) or my purchase was mixed with somebody else's purchase and both were linked to the same download page. In either way it is not my fault as this happens 100% on their system.
Comment has been collapsed.
If what you say is accurate then that is intriguing. They stated years back they have brute-force protection but I haven't bothered to test it to find their threshold. The only things I can think of are some database glitch or a CS Rep did a refund and added the key page back to the pool on the honor system.
Comment has been collapsed.
That the only way that I can see the things.
I bought the game as a gift copy(gift checkbox) from the Humble Store(not a bundle) and sent it over my e-mail prior to creating the giveaway. Then I made the giveaway and once it ended, I sent the gift URL I received from the HB to my winner. I double-checked that the gift URL page is not used(I even got a screenshot from Yahoo!'s automated preview that also proves that the page was unclaimed - "Lucky you! A friend sent you a gift through Humble Bundle"). My winner used the gift URL link, entered his e-mail address in it and successfully claimed the page. He then received an e-mail containing the download page - the actual page where the Steam Key is stored. So far everything went smooth.
Upon following that download page link the winner got an "Unknown Key error". He informed me about it opened a support case. According to SG support he had deleted the download page(?!) so they restored his access to it. Once done, he found out that the actual Steam Key had already neem used. When he contacted support again, it slipped through their mouths that even tho the gift URL page was unclaimed, the download page had been access 3 days earlier and most likely the Steam key had been used at that time.
So I took over from here and I opened my own support case with HB. I myself work in the IT support so I give them all details possible - literally - full timeframe and description of all events, screenshots of error, the e-mail I sent where they can clearly see that the page was still unclaimed, etc. Everything. I even left them my phone number in case they want to contact me to resolve the issue faster.
As they could see SG being mentioned in the e-mail they stated they would not support me. I challenged them and we exchanged several messages over the last month. All I got on topic was "I am aware of the original subject of your ticket. We previously located the issue in question and have taken steps towards it, however I cannot elaborate on this due to privacy reasons". All the rest was claims that they do not support this as a third-party "distributor" - SG - was used up until their final statement that you can see attached.
BTW I got full screenshots of my entire ticket(over 10 full screens :D).
Comment has been collapsed.
The more I think about it the more it sounds like an employee or vendor stole it. If it was some database exploit we would've heard a lot more complaints by now.
Comment has been collapsed.
They only say they won't support the case of sending gifts thru Third Party.
They don't disallow you from gifting.
I think it's that simple.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, if HB is going to get harsh about this, guess what charities are gonna lose how much money when people stop buying their bundles?
Comment has been collapsed.
I figure it in a similar way; not that you'd be punished for gifting/trading to other people, just don't expect alot from their support afterwards.
Comment has been collapsed.
I assume this would also apply to other giveaway sites, such as SteamCompanion, GameMiner, and GalaGiveaways? Essentially, any third-party service which randomly selects a recipient through an automated system? Actually, it may be more than just that. I assume that so long as the recipient of the Humble Bundle gift isn't a personal acquaintance or friend of the purchaser, it is a violation of their terms of service.
Comment has been collapsed.
The latter is not specified in any way shape or form. You're within your rights, even according to their ToS, to roll a dice and send the gift to someone assigned to the number that comes up. They simply don't understand what SteamGifts.com is - an RNG website.
Comment has been collapsed.
I thought this whole bundle giving away morality question was settled since ages
Comment has been collapsed.
BUAHAHAHA
No sorry, they can do shit and kiss my ass. After I will buy anything from their bundles/store, IT IS MINE. I can do whatever I want with MINE game. I own it. I can print the code/gift link on a piece of paper and give it to local kids or I can gift it through SG
Piece of bullshit
Also, even if they say bullshit like that...its not like they even care
Comment has been collapsed.
Imho Steamgifts is not third party distributor :D in a case of typical giveaways. It is only randomizing system (it's like saying that roulette wheel is distributor of chips/money), and then you can still give the code/giftlink to the person through any other means like chat, email.
All that lawyer talk about "personal usage only" and then they put gifting option :D how the hell is gifting a personal usage then and all other things are forbidden. Like many said if you paid for it, it should be yours to do whatever you want with it (apart from copyright ofc), but yes they can refuse support service for the new owner, they can't however kill the key unless there is a legitimate reason (credit card fraud, etc.).
Comment has been collapsed.
My care and concern meter is dangerously low in regards to this TOS infraction. I will continue to gift my games to whoever I please. Have a humble day.
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't understand what their problem is. We bought the bundles (and the games), therefore they now belong to us and we are free to give them away if we so desire.
Saying that gifting the games we bought through HB is against the rules is extremely odd.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why did you tell them about SG though? I would never mention SG in this kind of circumstance, because, unless they know what it is, it serves to further complicate things. Just tell them you gifted to a friend and he couldn't activate it.
Comment has been collapsed.
I did not mentioned it in the ticket itself - they saw it from the e-mail screenshot. Regardless, SG should not be against their ToS anyway, so I did not see anything wrong with it. Obviously, tho, they read their ToS in a different manner ;)
Comment has been collapsed.
But it's not distribution, it's gifting... They just abusing their position!
Comment has been collapsed.
maybe they don't realize this site gives away keys and there's no profit into this.
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't see a 3rd party involved, since you gave the link directly to the other person. Silly humble.
Comment has been collapsed.
TLDR: Check the attached image at the bottom.
Hello All,
As I recently got a case with HB support regarding a problem with a purchase I got a formal statement from their support and Steam Gifts.
Overall, for me it was obvious that gifting HB keys directly through SG would be classified as a breach of HB Terms of Service. However, since HB introduced their own gifting system I though that it is fine to just select your winner through SG and complete the gifting process via HB gift. It seems that I was wrong.
Edit: The long story:
I bought the game as a gift copy(gift checkbox) from the Humble Store(not a bundle) and sent it over my e-mail prior to creating the giveaway. Then I made the giveaway and once it ended, I sent the gift URL I received from the HB to my winner. I double-checked that the gift URL page is not used(I even got a screenshot from Yahoo!'s automated preview that also proves that the page was unclaimed - "Lucky you! A friend sent you a gift through Humble Bundle"). My winner used the gift URL link, entered his e-mail address in it and successfully claimed the page. He then received an e-mail containing the download page - the actual page where the Steam Key is stored. So far everything went smooth.
Upon following that download page link the winner got an "Unknown Key error". He informed me about it opened a support case. According to SG support he had deleted the download page(?!) so they restored his access to it. Once done, he found out that the actual Steam Key had already been used. When he contacted support again, it slipped through their mouths that even tho the gift URL page was unclaimed, the download page had been access 3 days earlier and most likely the Steam key had been used at that time.
So I took over from here and I opened my own support case with HB. I myself work in the IT support so I give them all details possible - literally - full timeframe and description of all events, screenshots of error, the e-mail I sent where they can clearly see that the page was still unclaimed, etc. Everything. I even left them my phone number in case they want to contact me to resolve the issue faster.
As they could see SG being mentioned in the e-mail they stated they would not support me. I challenged them and we exchanged several messages over the last month. All I got on topic was "I am aware of the original subject of your ticket. We previously located the issue in question and have taken steps towards it, however I cannot elaborate on this due to privacy reasons". All the rest was claims that they do not support this as a third-party "distributor" - SG - was used up until their final statement that you can see attached.
BTW I got full screenshots of my entire ticket(over 10 full screens :D).
Comment has been collapsed.