When you see a long post that includes a tl;dr line, what do you typically do?
Problem: People attacking other user in discussion-threads because their opinon.
Solution: For most of those opinions there is no real wrong or right, try to keep that in the back of your mind before you reply to it. A discussion is there to discuss not to argue. Try to be openminded.
I have Grim Dawn already just for the record ^_^
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Problem : many ppl feel salty if someone exploiting great discount whatever it is game or software to increase its level
Solution : Use SGtool, create cv ratio which prevent those ppl can enter
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Problem: The lack of many many many rules on this site that makes almost everything subjective.
Solution: Make almost everything objective.
That's basically how law works. You just apply.
There's no analisys, no double standards, no need of subjective judgement every time.
It is just simple plain rules. You just sign in and follow the rules. If you don't, you're the wrong one.
When any initially organized system doesn't follow its own dynamic natural evolution, any system tend to collapse.
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Just curious, of which rules are we talking about?
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the main lack of rules, besides the bundle thing, is about inappropriate behavior.
there is no limit of behavior on this forums. remember the topic where one guy did suicide?
support did close that thread because subjective matter. there was no rule at all about that, still the thread was closed.
in the other hand, lots of other clearly toxic threads were open and nothing has been doing since then, which is right, because there no rule about behavior or limit about that. I can say that this is a fully open discussion forum, that you can do anything you want, even toxic, except the extremes, like piracy, pornography, gore and other very specific unwanted things by average public.
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IIRC it was OP who closed the thread only last comment was made by someone from support.
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That's basically how law works
My whole work is based on law. So I can say that statement above has nothing in common with reality. Also If you have a lot of money + good lawyer - you are free to ignore many things. Law is unclear, unfair and often simply bought by corporations to kill small fishes on the market.
Making clear rules here will only create way to misusing it. FE somebody will say something not nice towards other user - report for bullying. And so on.
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law is unclear, unfair and often simply
that is exactly what I'm talking about... but I have to say that I don't understand why you conclude the opposite of your own reasons. make clear rules do exactly the opposite of what you concluded.
I really can't understand how "clear rules" can be "misused". if something is being misused it is because it is not clear enough. I really don't see how what you said works.
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Have you ever read any law act? They are "clear" to the point when average person is unable to understand it xD Which opens the field to different interpretations - often judges give different judgment in similar cases.
Let's introduce "anti lying" rule here. I will report you because i don't like how you quoted me (looks like I said the law is often simple, while it should be "simply bought by corporations) no offense - it's just an example . One judge (support member) will throw out this ticket but another one might give you 1h suspension - In the meantime people who wait 24h for their reroll ticket will have to wait 36h for it.. during huge drama on forum support will basically do nothing else then checking tickets related to social rules, while their most important function - related to site basic functionality (which are giveaways) will be abandoned.
I think that best think we can do is using golden rule :) Making additional laws here won't help because there will be not enough stuff to enforce them.
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I'm a lawyer. Different interpretations doesn't mean misuse. Different interpretation means possibilities!
The misuse comes when someone usurp the word of the law (or rule). The reasons can be several (that's why I said that this has to be dynamic and follow the natural evolution of working system). If the law allows that, it is time to change, because behaviors changed.
Let's get your example that was nice one. Can you see how much subjectivity is in there? Can you see how much people analyse an be analysed? If you, for example, estabilish a "anti bad wording" rule and I call you "fucker" or do directly offend you using words, we have an objective criteria for an act. There's no need to analyse the behavior. However, if you just argue against using common words, even aggressively, you are not misusing, you are just exploring a possibility that law (or rule) gives you.
I also think the forums is a kinda separated place from giveaways or even trading area. There will be no harm done in make things clear. People who tend to abandon the place are people that usually doesn't fit the rules.
In the very end, I do agree with you... Maybe the lack of the rule is intentional because staff don't have enough resources to enforce them...
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Did you just say Law is not subjective? O.o Why do we have judges and courts again? Law is highly subjective and the higher the area you try to apply it to the more complicated, messy and subjective it becomes.
In general I don't believe that something like objectivity even exists. Especially in an international forum where the Umwelt influences of the whole world pour in. Creating more rules will just create justified ways to circumvent them and make the situation worse. At least this is what experienced taught me.
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judges and courts exists because they are the only one who apply the law. almost any constitution work that way today. the people doesn't judge because it is the government responsability to do the judicial power responsability, not legislative or executive, even less the citizen themselves. have you ever thought why judges are limited to the laws word? the short answer is very simple: objectivity.
don't get me wrong (because I'm not trying to be rude) but what you said indicates that you don't know nothing about how contratual rules or even legal system works. when you get confused about who apply rules and why they do that limited to what law says, is a strong indication that you don't know or doesn't recognize the basic concepts of power, government, laws, tripartition of powers (or bipartition in some tend-to-be dictatorial countries), contracts and many more other concepts. I have to say that because I can't start a conversation to explain to you the whole sociology matter (specially the hobbes, locke and rosseau part) in another language.
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Well, it's not the thing I studied so I will not argue with someone else about it. But I still stand to what I said. If we need humans to explain or decide what the laws words means then this indicates that it is by no means objective. Also if there are discussions about what and if a certain law applies in a situation suggest a strong subjective influence. If the law is really objective every person on the planet would know which law is broken at the moment an infringement has been done.
It is also not about who is allowed to interpret a law officially, not about concepts of power, government, laws and what else. It is a bout perception. If different people (unrelated how stupid they are or how much into the matter they are) after reading the same text come to a different conclusion then it is not objective. Like I said: I don't believe objectivity exists.
But we will probably have to agree that we just have different perceptions for this matter. As we are probably tackling this from different angles.
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Problem: ToS has 20.000+ pages of law-speak
Solution: abandon site
I have enough pain from legislating diarrhea of parliament to get that in here also.
The real number above probably is much, much bigger if you aim for "just apply" when social interaction is involved. There will be main rules, then exceptions to them, then exceptions to exceptions...
To hell with that, let's just apply common sense maybe )
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without main rules, there are only exceptions and also double standards, because mine common sense is different than yours.
some just like the anarchy because they never lived in one.
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Maybe common sense wasn't best phrase.
Main rule is exactly one. Do not harm to others on purpose. There may be short list of crimes with associated punishments, but that's it.
Trying to be precise, objective as you put it, is bound to fail. The sheer amount of needed rules will make them unapplicable - nobody, even judges, won't know them.
(Thing to think about: do you, as a lawyer, know each and every law of your country? And how much good comes from laws that average Joe doesn't even know exist)
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Problem: Drama on the forums.
Solution for participants: If you don't like it, just ignore it. It takes two to tango. These issues fade quickly if not fed with bickering.
Solution for observers: Hurry and pass the popcorn!
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Okay, sure. But I'm not going to post anything regarding the community itself since that just sounds like a lame excuse for a rant.
Problem: Lack of ability to edit polls.
Solution: Implement the ability top edit polls. Logged votes are then reset.
Problem: Lack of ability to sort created threads by category.
Solution: Implementation of ability to sort created threads by category.
Problem: Lack of "mini-text" from SGv1.
Solution: Re-implementation of mini-text formatting.
Problem: Lack of support/mod members.
Solution: Recruitment of more support/mod members. If cg can't do it, then a trusted mod should be allowed to do so.
Problem: Jbond being an annoying prick about small issues on SG which aren't being addressed.
Solution: Permanently suspend Jbond.
Disclaimer: I'm not entering for the giveaway.
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Problem: People don't like each other or have anger issues
Solution: Get Mortal Kombat, play against each other, use the hell out of fatalities, kick and punch each other senseless, resolve your issues, come back to SG.
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Problem:we cant send PM to other users or some kind of message without send a friend request in steam.
Solution : add a message box or at least, some "message wall" on our profiles where other People can leave you a comentary or message.
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Begging flood, blacklist drama to the max. It sounds like a good idea, but it wouldn't take long before a lot of people would demand its removal and to automatically filter anyone ever mentioning it again.
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PMs were discussed in SGv2 beta and got denied - big contributors getting hundreds of begging PMs, people getting loads of drama nad flame because of BlackLists (a lot of people don't make drama about being BLed on forums because they know there is a valid reason and they don't want to discuss it in public because other will BL them as well, if you allow them to post privately they will spam without end), trolls mass spamming community, scammers making fresh lvl0 accounts just to mass spam phishing licks across the community. And so on and on.
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The ability to send PM to the winner would come handy though
(not to mention support staff should be able to do that for everyone)
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yeah - PM winner and Support able to post directly to your Messages section would indeed be good thing, but ability to PM anyone anytime is a big no-no.
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You can still PM (as in public message) anyone who created at least one public giveaway. That's what most people do, and it's proven to be a pretty poor replacement for proper messaging.
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it's a workaraound but it's more complex and time consuming than a simple limited PM option. Let's say someone doesn't make many poublic GAs - he sticks to invite only for puzzles and events and group/wl - for example look at my profile currently - you'd have to go through a lot of pages to find a public GA since I'm currently hosting an event with hundreds of private gibs hosted on forum. Is it still possible to PM me via public GA? yes it is. But it's not convenient, not to mention that with so many GAs and comments I get I may miss your GA comment among spam of thank you's and bumps.
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who created at least one public giveaway
And there the problem lies... Level 0
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Thanks a lot for info, is good to know.
Probably all these reasons can be discussed, for example if a person is blacklisted for X user, he can't send PMs to this user, about scammers and level 0 acc you can put a min level 3 to get PM service... or the option of receive only PMs of your "friends" or WL people to get in contact.
The other option is a public wall for messages on your profile, like steam, where other users can put a personal message, but it will be public and anyone can read it...
Anyway, all your reasons are logic.
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I think it would be nice if you could see who WL's you. Have a tag by their name and/or have their name colored . Would encourage WL reciprocation. More WL'ing more goodwill I think. This shouldn't apply to BL though to avoid drama.
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Problem: Too many cooks.
Solution: Some say that too many cooks will spoil the broth. But they fill our hearts with so much so much love. The SG community is like a family. And family is like a soup. Everyone adds an extra scoop. Mix an ounce of smile so sweet. A dash of cool to add the heat, and you got: Too many cooks. So actually it's not a problem. It's just too many cooks...
I'm sorry.
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Problem: People screaming and hailing
unbankonrad2016
dicksoutforkonrad
or #FreeKonrad
and offending filthy russian modifier
Solution:
unbankonrad2016
dicksoutforkonrad
or #FreeKonrad
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Problem: People saying itstoohard quizzes are puzzles.
Solution: Stop saying they're puzzles :)). No seriously, I hate that.
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Problem: Confusion (and many posts) about which games are considered bundled, and their CV (15% rule).
Solution: Convert the points value for all bundled games directly to the 15% value. A 60P bundled game will show as a 9P game, requiring only 9P to enter and generating 9*0.03 to the CV pool. Then the $ value for "gifts sent" will be equal to real CV directly here on Steamgifts, and everything will make more sense. Less confusion/posts.
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If this was implemented, it would mean that the CV on the profiles was the real CV :3
It would also be nice if the points value/bundled status was visible when creating a giveaway.
Then we wouldn't have these "hey, I bought Just Cause 3 for $60, gave it away in my 60P giveaway but didn't get 60 CV/level gain :(" It would be a 9P game, and those who care about CV could easily see that.
That the $ value on the profile doesn't match the real CV only causes confusion. New members angry about their $600 only "giving them" Level 3, while others who are at $600 can be at Level 6. It's a bit odd that we need to use a third party solution to easily check real CV.
Also, if bundled games were shifted to their real CV points value, that would mean non-bundle games would be more expensive to enter giveaways for, compared to the bundle games. We would still be able to enter 3% of all giveaways created (3% of the bundled, 3% of the non bundled), but if you're only out for +1:s for your library, it's "cheaper" to go for the bundled games (you could enter more bundle game giveaways than today), and the non-bundle games will have a higher rate of people who really want that particular game entering.
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yes, but you reduce points-to-enter-bundle-games, then you have to reduce max points from 300 to 100 or less (it would be 45p max based on 15% of bundled games...).
i'd just like to keep the same system but displaying the "real" info on profiles and giveaway creation.
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Hm, good call, makes sense, and would be worth considering in this scenario.
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No need for that. Points regenerate at a fraction of entry price. Reducing to 15% entry P means 15% of current regeneration amount from bundle games (slower regeneration bonus: good for humans, bad for bots)
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If you'd do that, I bet you there will still be 232746 threads of people complaining why they just received X amount of CV points instead of Y (the price they paid for the game). I see where you're coming from, but I personally don't think that it should be changed, it's good as it is for me :>. And for people complaining about something so mundane and already explained in the FAQs - they'll find other things to complain about. Only thing that might help lower the amount of threads is to make it more obvious which games were bundled in the past.
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and no more crazy point regeneration thanks to Humble Bundle? No Thank You! ;p
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This is an excellent suggestion. I really don't see any downside to it, because points already don't have the dollar sign to them so it won't create any confusion.
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Problem: People abuse the blacklist for personal vendettas against users they don't like that otherwise follow the rules or have already served punishment, in multiple cases also creating witch hunts on offenses they have no way of proving such as suspicious giveaways that only moderators/admins can verify, as well as enforcing custom rules on everything with SGT or similar.
Solution: Remove blacklists and disallow custom rules altogether. Some people were never meant to have power.
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"abuse the blacklist" -> erm... why are you able to dictate what is a valid use of the BL? How is keeping someone you dislike from entering your giveaways an abuse of the system?
(sure, some people are uncool and BL you because you disagreed with them in the forums but it's not really policeable)
"enforcing custom rules on everything with SGT or similar" -> It's a use of invite-only giveaways, there is nothing saying what they can or can't ask people to do to get the invite (aside the for-profit thing).
It just seems like you want the power to police how others use the site as much as the people you complain about.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Unless CG/mods say that those uses are inappropriate, they really aren't.
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"abuse the blacklist" -> erm... why are you able to dictate what is a valid use of BL? How is keeping someone you dislike from entering your giveaways an abuse of the system?
shadow blacklisting!
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People should have the right to blacklist those they don't want to enter their giveaways. It's not an abuse. It's their money for giveaways, they should have some control over who can or can't join them.
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Removing blacklists, whitelists and custom rules would simply drive many contributors out of this site.
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I have nothing against whitelists.
As a compromise, you could leave custom rules open, but remove the blacklists.
Custom rules at least define objective criteria (for the most part), while blacklists are always targetting people at an individual level.
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Why should one be forced to gift something they paid for to someone who personally offended them?
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I think that someone should have the right to choose how to give out their gifts, I mean why should I gift someone that insulted me or is behaving in a way that I can not stand ?
Also I'm not so active on the forum and that may be a reason why I'm not often Whitelisted and in even rarer case Blacklisted, still if it's just a problem of entering Giveaways zelg already did some maths on it and in the small time I've been here I've never seen the big contributors Blacklisting for petty reasons.
Also, by using custom rules, given the fact that you do not have an enormous blacklist, you could still deny certain users access to your giveaways.
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You already write the problem and my solution :P bye grim dawn!
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Problem: We do no have enough cat gifs.
Solution: We should post more cat gifs. Cuteness and adorableness has been proven scientifically to relieve stress and help manage anxiety.
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Problem: rule breakers (non-activating).
Solution: implement a warning that reminds you to activate the gift on your account.
For example, a button to reveal the key/link which gives you the message and you need to click OK in order to reveal the key/link. Or directly under the space cat. Or when accessing the 'won' page.
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Problem: notifications processing
Solution: separate notifications in giveaways and discussions
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I assume the problem you're referring to is an avalanche of generic thank you's when one has many giveaways running? If so, wouldn't it be better to have a specific processing of such messages (e.g. move those to a separate notification list, similar to how spam is filtered)? Giveaways frequently have interesting discussions, so I personally wouldn't want to have them separated from forum notifications.
Also, happy Cake Day!
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the basic solution for almost eveything that doesnt break the rule is ignoring, rather then starting the war
word count : i dont care the numbers :)
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Problem: Not enough filters in Discussion to enhance user friendliness.
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Problem: I only write stupid comments
Solution: I shoud stop commenting at all
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Problem: wasting time of the support. Half or my reroll requests are accepted. Rest of them are not because certain user already was suspended for his deeds :)
Solution: public information on profile about past suspensions might be too much - but maybe that information could be available for GA creator in time between ending of GA and sending gift/key to the winner ->less useless support tickets.
Not really a problem but some people (including me) might like it: add option to sort GA's by tags. Some would like to see only fps, some would hide all VN games, some would like to see everything except shmups. Though I'm not sure how steam api works and if informations like this are provided - so I have no idea if it's even possible.
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+1, same like GA creator can see email of the winner, he should be able to see suspension history near.
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there are scripts to see the tags, integrating them into the site might be too much though.
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That's why I said it's not really a problem xD More a potential feature - not really needed :)
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i think cg is against adding tags if that users was already suspended.
i'm not sure why he is against it, but imo it is sort of branding in public... you know, mark of cain etc?
not that it is hard to see that.
it could just appear on the profile if the he is your winner. then you "need" to know anyway
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Yeah - we don't need to mark people.
But If I ask for a reroll - I will get that information anyway, right? If he wasn't suspended - reroll will be granted. And if he/her was already punished - I will gladly send that key/gift :) without bothering support
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information on profile about past suspensions might be too much - but maybe that information could be available for GA creator in time between ending of GA and sending gift/key to the winner ->less useless support tickets.
+1
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but maybe that information could be available for GA creator in time between ending of GA and sending gift/key to the winner
Fantastic suggestion! This would probably save 50% of reroll requests and has zero negative implications. It's not like the giveaway creator isn't (or can't) check the winner for rule breaking anyway. All it will do it is prevent needless tickets.
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Problem: people complain that they have to play puzzles or other events for GA
Solution: people are giving away gases or free. Enjoy it. And Enjoy the puzzle too
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The idea is simple. Present a problem you think plagues this forum, and offer a constructive solution. Ideally it should be a solution that people can implement by changing their point of view and/or their behavior, but it can also be a technical solution, e.g. a change to site rules or the way it works (you can assume cg is reading this, assumption is free). No walls of text please, and leave the saltiness & bitterness out of this thread. Be concise & constructive.
The key for Grim Dawn was contributed by PeteOzzy. I'll use random.org to pick a winner from those who present a problem and suggest a solution. If the winner already owns Grim Dawn, I'll look for games on their wishlist that I may have keys for, and if successful I will let them pick one. If that doesn't work I'll just use random.org to pick another winner.
Update: Winner picked; key sent :-)
Thank you!
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