Finally a good rant about everything that is wrong with this site at the moment. Honestly I feel like staff members have given up.
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Staff members rarely moderated the forums.
Ftfy. Unless something is clear cut, the general policy is that you guys are adults and can learn to sort your own shit out.
Last thing anyone here wants is for this site to turn into a daycare with Support becoming your internet mummies and daddies.
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Very much so. Beyond the clear-cut you mentioned, I'm against any forum moderation (as it tends to stray toward thought policing).
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Yet heres a giant topic to prove that aint working that you support too? Which of the 2 is it? Too little moderation is good or bad? Now you think both!
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I think you may be confusing my views with another poster.
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If this would be true though, no forum ever would need moderation since they can just assume the users are adult enough to sort it out.
Look, we understand that staff doesn't want to get more involved in the endless dramafest this forum likes to generate in some form or another—and we appreciate when someone does step in and closes down threads where things get way too heated—but please don't pretend that an internet forum can be a self-regulating entity, because there are plenty of us old enough to remember the pre-facebook era of large internet forums that very much so were moderated, sometimes pretty strictly.
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please don't pretend that an internet forum can be a self-regulating entity, because there are plenty of us old enough to remember the pre-facebook era of large internet forums that very much so were moderated, sometimes pretty strictly.
The way I look at the issue: What benefit comes from us in creating strict behavioural guidelines to force users into following against allowing great liberty which will at times attract shitfests? By whose subjective measures should we apply in an otherwise objective manner and is the manpower needed to facilitate such measures truly worth it?
We already apply suspension for the clear-cut stuff (racism, begging, etc.) so I do not see the point of creating new guidelines to break up otherwise petty fights among users. Even if we were to take a more hardline stance on forum decorum, it will purely be subjective since these are subjective personal grievances between users rather than objective instances of rule breaking.
For every suspension applied to someone for being an ass, they will have defenders stating that it was not warranted and others who will state it did not go far enough. How can we objectively stand by such suspensions without stating "We suspended you because we felt like it was warranted" instead of the current "You did X, which is clearly against rule A"?
Again, while I truly believe that the allure of having Support/Mods coming down hard on forum nonsense is attractive, the draw back is not worth it. I doubt peeps here will like to have me as their internet Dad, telling them that they can only say nice things or they won't get any dessert.
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I doubt peeps here will like to have me as their internet Dad, telling them that they can only say nice things or they won't get any dessert.
You would be surprised how many not only wouldn't mind that but ask for it. Having some sort of authority figures keeping order is a pretty natural need in many people; these are the people who still see police as sort of a relief for security and not some representation of the Man they have to rebel against. Heck, if anything, the former is the more adult way of approaching things and the latter is more like gang/teen behaviour.
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But there is difference between keeping order figure and "do as I say and I'll take care of all your wants". The latter is the direction I see ppl are going and I wouldn't call it adult
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Right now, we don't really feel like we have the "keep order" figure, only more of a "prevents large-scale disasters only" figure. Staff may be doing a whole lot more work, but as this thread's existence and many of its messages prove, it certainly cannot be felt by the community.
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Futurama (of course I'm going to reference it) has a good point about this matter in one of their episodes.
God Entity: Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket.
Bender: Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money.
God Entity: Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
As you can see, I'm a fan of the light touch :p
Edit: Not saying that things are perfect, but going more hardline is not the best either.
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And that's how it should be imho. You are free to sow a wind, but be prepared to reap a storm. Authorities should intervene only when it starts to threaten uninvolved parties.
I agree with CJ that moderating "shitposting" won't bring anything good in the long run. Primary function of the site is getting free games. If one can be suspended for controversial (in the support member eyes) post, he won't post (see discussions about blacklists stifling discussion). More, shitposting cannot be reasonably precisely defined without severly limiting scope of subject allowed - to the games and maybe puzzles. So the support will be seen as biased, losing authority it now has (which potentially can lead to losing trust in SGs RNG fairness)
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Removing posts that are strictly negative towards any person or group of people would be enough - then shitpost threads would die on their own because there was nothing constructive in them apart from "bump" posts.
If we could integrate "bump" into a way that doesn't involve commenting with useless content, that would make those threads entirely empty. And nobody would complain about that, because from what I see majority of comments are "why are you making those shitty threads, blacklisted, get lost".
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And this is where I'm going to point out that now you're entering dangerous territory.
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Sweeping dirt under the carpet doesn't make room clean. Pretending (by deleting posts) that there is no problem, all is roses and rainbows would take it's toll sooner or later. And it won't be nice.
Useless posts? You mean posts that contain only this should be suspendable offence? ;)
"why are you making those shitty threads, blacklisted, get lost".
Very good comment, as long as it's said once. Without feedback that what you do is wrong how are you going to change? If one doesn't get a hint, he will should be ignored. Then he will go away. Simple as that.
If you want to ban anyone who post something you don't like, soon you'll run out of ppl to ban ;
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A big part of the mess that is discussions at this time is cliques of users pursuing vendettas. Serious discussions get derailed over grudges so people stop trying, people have left discussions because of drama and shitposters are left to fill the void. Certain Anonymous Touhou Members are part of the problem and already spend enough time trying to silence their enemies by plotting to bait them into suspensions. Probably wasting a good chunk of supports time in the process and thus contributing to other problems. I can only assume you yourself are well intentioned - but I think you have to understand that for some of us Team Archi calling for a bold new era of SG censorship doesn't sound like a solution to anything - it just sounds fucking scary.
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when you already have many examples all over the internet of forums with hundreds (thousands?) of active users like this one with way stricter rules and working better than us. Why can't we just copy a system we know it works?
Besides, is there any other example of our actual policy being applied successfully in a forum this size? I honestly don't think it's working very well here (as many others, judging by this thread).
Which sites and how do we measure that it works "better" than us? You are free to critique the forums and the manner in which it is handled, for it encourages the continued growth and development of the overall site, but do not make offhand statements like that and then place the onus on me to prove otherwise.
From a personal standpoint: The forums should be a place of discussion between members and the onus should be placed on the community to determine what is considered acceptable. We all choose to engage with a given thread/comment and we possess the power to disengage when we see fit. Why should we then relegate that power over to a select few, when the community already possesses the tools to deal with a given issue. If we do not like a given thread, why do we need to have an outside source close it when we can simply ignore it. We are not being forced to read it or even acknowledge it, so I fail to see the need of why we should have someone else make the decision that because a select group disagree with the comment/thread that no one should be allowed to engaged with it.
We as a community decide which threads to read and which comments/threads we reply to. We cannot control the behaviour of others but we can decide how we respond to it. If you see something you do not approve of, you already have the means to address the situation. You do not need to fight and always prove someone else wrong. Walking away is a valid response and is one that should be exercised more by members of this site.
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Walking away is what I've been doing since last 2 years, I've walked away into group of people that were walking away together with me. Then we talked a little and found out there is a thousand people walking away together with us. If you have good imagination, you can see where this is going to.
Or maybe you never spotted that loud crying in anger child that is being ignored by parents, same like you suggest, and how it affects other people, including you, around him. You literally say that we should all quit the bus or not get onto it in the first place, because there is toxic invidual that can't be forced to act appropriately. "Don't read", yeah, great advice cj.
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general policy is that you guys are adults
This site is about games not something like a retirement plan. There are actual "kids" here, who unsurprisingly can't behave themselves.
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And some of those behave far better than most adults here.
I've said this before, spammers and users whom are behaving inappropriately are being warned and/or suspended and threads are being closed
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By "kids" I meant immature users, who need some "parenting". Just having mature users telling them to stop, without any means to enact any punishment, won't make the problem go away.
I know this is what mods are doing, but it seem we are not on the same page when it come to definition of inappropriate behavior.
For example, I don't consider asking for firearm recommendations and starting a shitfest debate on firearms, appropriate behavior.
It's totally unnecessary debate on a gaming related forum.
Also on some threads I see the OR being suspended, but the thread is still open and the shitfest going on. Maybe he was suspended for other reasons, but it's impossible to tell.
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Ha, when you become dictator somewhere, I'd be first applying for citizenship. Seriously.
Ppl got so indoctrinated into believing that more regulations, policing and oversight make their problems magically disappear.
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I wasn't refering to forum moderation only, although I do remember threads being closed in the past.
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Oh, so my two sentences stirred a whole chain of discussions. Not sure where to reply anymore. I had only read the thread, not looking at comments when I wrote.
It wasn't obvious from that but I wasn't referring just to forum posts but the user base in general and what is acceptable on the site.
What triggered me mostly was the last two paragraphs about autojoiners and leakers. Heck, my first forum post was a rant when I first found out about autojoiners shortly after joining steamgifts and started making giveaways. Two years later, they are still here with improved bots/scripts to not get locked out of the site for a day. To those who still believe it's paranoia, just do a google search. Now we have a dedicated thread for botproof giveaways. Why are they still allowed? They have an unfair advantage over regular users. Multiaccounts weren't mentioned but they fall in the same category of users who should not be taking wins from regular members and I feel that aside from suspending those caught or reported for doing it nothing is done to prevent. Imagine how cheap it is to register a new account with the humble monthlies. Perhaps I didn't pay attention to them before but now I feel their numbers have increased and I mostly stick to forum giveaways. These are issues that should be more seriously addressed and regarding leaked entrants perhaps they should be punished as well.
About the quality of posts, that's subjective. But seeing the same things mentioned in the op over and over is getting annoying: sg police, negative attitude towards minor rule breakers who dare to post in a thread, petty feuds for more attention and attention loving members. I think it was always the same just some people had enough. I only come here for the deals now.
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I found this site a few months ago, and sure it ain't perfect, but it' still a lot better than most other forums. Your points are valid, hope they get addresses by someone in charge.
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Very well spoken Archi, I would say very welcome to my WL but I can't as you're already on it. <3
Thank you for confirming my thoughts about the artificially induced drama on SG by mostly the same and mostly unchecked people...
enforce no freaking double-standards
It would be very nice, pleasant, fair and objective that this would be done but for the moment it's SG utopia.
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This is not just my observation, the discussions right now is a total public swamp with no rules, no moderation, crapload of shitposts and no constructive discussion whatsoever.
It is your observation, since it is you who are writing. In the comments there are other observations, that can or not agree with yours.
A guy regifting two of his wins, getting suspended and asking why he got suspended
Moderation working.
Self-claimed SG sheriffs playing "the good policeman" calling out people publicly on their unactivated wins and telling them that they're blacklisted, like who fucking cares that you blacklisted somebody.
Users calling out other users are suspended.
The same people doing the same mistake of trying to give away a game that went free, for the 7th time, learning nothing and waiting for the 8th free game, maybe this time they'll finally deliver the gift.
All giveaways for games massively given away are removed, creators lose a giveaway slot and don't get any CV.
Bunch of people salty that they got suspended because of acting like a dick, now taking revenge with not being able to construct even a single sentence that is not a sarcasm.
That sounds more like a personal problem.
Spammers filling discussions with several shitpost threads daily, that have nothing to do but to troll and cause drama, because attention whores have nothing better to do.
What is your definition of shitpost threads? Writing rantings to cause drama and get attention is shitposting?
People with 100+ not delivered gifts that decide to not deliver a game to certain winner only because they don't like him. Because you have a privilege to do that when you have enough of games being sent, since you get 1 slot per each 3 delivered games, so you can easily ignore 25% of your winners just because of their crap ratio.
That sounds more like a personal problem. Not delivering a game = fake giveaway and has consequences. And there are already enough threads talking about that to reopen the discussion again.
People leaking invite-only giveaways on russian forums and instead of banning obvious leakers with 100% solid evidence gathered by a lot of involved people, the best you can get is a "reroll if cheater wins". I could as well create site that gathers all invite-only giveaways automatically and let everybody know about it, so maybe then we will see a rule change that will actually punish people that are joining leaking giveaways CONSTANTLY hoping for giveaway creator to not find out.
That sounds like a personal problem. If cg/support already told you their opinion, don't come here to cry.
People that are using shitty scripts to join every single giveaway they can automatically, and they don't bother even checking the site to REDEEM their win, annoying giveaway creator that SG should protect, and getting away with it. Do I need to write a bot like ASF for entire SG, with a feature of automatic discussion crawling and puzzle solving to point out that issue?
It is fun that the bot guy rants again bot users. Yours is the only bot that is allowed to interact with the site, as you don't get tired to remember us. Support team has stated several times already that autojoin bots are forbidden and carry a suspension from the site.
15:40 - AnonymousTouhouMember1: The way I see it, a few things can happen....
15:40 - AnonymousTouhouMember1: 1. Mods start actually modding, stop protecting certain users like <redacted>.
15:40 - AnonymousTouhouMember1: 2. The sites traffic suffers as it will actually become a "scam" site
15:41 - AnonymousTouhouMember1: 3. A group of disillusioned users breakaway and start their own giveaway site.
Looks like some anonymous member of your group has problems with <redacted>. If your group wants to reduce the traffic of the site, turn off your bot (who caused time ago that the site went down due to excessive traffic, as you also don't get tired to remember us).
15:45 - AnonymousTouhouMember2: You know what's the deal with SG? The problem is it's still managed like it was 5 years ago when it was a small project with limited invites.
15:45 - AnonymousTouhouMember2: I feel like it's "self-moderated" by the users themselves most of the time.
15:47 - AnonymousTouhouMember2: But really, I can't blame support for it, they literally don't have the power to do much more than suspend for small infractions and reply to support tickets.
15:55 - AnonymousTouhouMember2: In fact, I started coming here in this chat as a "getaway" from SG bullshit. :P
Anonymous users really seems to have a privileged opinion for you. Citing these anonymous comments from your steam group really changes anything yeah.
16:33 - AnonymousTouhouMember3: I'd really like the fcking problem of <censored by perrolijo> finally solved. Fuckers have been leaking GAs for over 2 years straight and still nothing have been done with that...
16:34 - AnonymousTouhouMember3: I won't mention how many great contributors especially puzzle-maklers quitted puzzle altogether because there's no point wnymore with these fuckers leaking every puzzle there is
More anonymous comments from your steam group! You love them. Also you are calling out some hundreds of users with your post. Are you so special that only you can call out in this site? Being quoting is not an excuse since you knew in that quote that 'anonymous user' was calling out hundreds of sg users.
I could simply hide in my SG utopia aka elitist circle-jerk private giveaway group of people that are fed up like me, like I'm doing since last 2 years, but maybe before starting a war and wasting a lot of time on doing something stupid, we can fix what is broken, enforce no freaking double-standards and actually give support power to ban people, because apparently some people didn't learn shit after their 3rd suspension. Maybe if people would be afraid of crossing the line between jumping on insults, shitposts, constantly breaking the rules and not being afraid of anything, something would improve and I wouldn't feel disgusted every day I'm opening discussions, to find out about some interesting thread to look into.
3rd suspension for the same fault = permaban, what are you talking about? What double standards are you talking about? Several level10 users have been permabanned from the site before (or at least I remember 1). Most people in this site are totally healthy users, and just a minor part of users waste their time trolling/breaking rules. Maybe you only read drama threads (like this one), who are like shit for flies.
Can we do something before it's too late and members that are actually building this community move elsewhere because it became a total pile of trash? I'm not in the mood of coding another giveaway site for me and ~100 more people who have enough of that, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, together with SG profile sync and people starting at their SG levels, quickly I'd divide the community into two, and this is not my intention.
Support is already doing their work, daily, with no compensation for their work. CG recluted more members, gave more powers to others, and created a reference manual for new support members so they can work in a more homogeneus way. And honestly, I don't fucking care about what you have to code. And I doubt CG would let you use your bot for crawling SG data and creating a competitor.
I expect either several people raising hand (including silently agreeing with me, without wanting to disclose that), or a total drama thread that will quickly change into blacklists, insults and people saying how everything is okay when I'm more likely to create public L0 giveaway given to a bot capable of writing automated thanks rather than to "community" we have right now.
So you wrote all this knowing beforehand that it would become a drama thread, and even so you did it. Also it seems you wanted to divide the community with that "raising hands" thing. It looks indeed like if you want to destroy SG and create your own giveaway site.
If you need blacklist button you can find it in my profile. I'm simply calling cg to mind before it's too late. I don't ask for dramatic changes - a few rule changes, and telling your newly-recruited support to start enforcing them - before it's too late.
Again, if you already talked with support/cg in the past and they told you NO, there is nothing more to talk. You should have to keep it private because you are not contributing to the community well.-being with this.
JerkArchi out. Have a giveaway that perfectly relates to my opinion. And if you agree with me, it's a good moment to walk into the light and together show cg that something has to be done here.
What a great way to divide people. Congrats. BTW you don't care, but you are blacklisted. And now I will be blacklisted by every user of your steam group but I stopped joining giveaways time ago so I genuineny don't-fucking-care :D
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in short: this thread is artificially inflated drama. ^^
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you're not getting off my WL that easily <3
on-topic: I'm not here often enough to really have an opinion either way, but I sometimes click random innocent sounding threads and it's drama from the first reply on, carried over from other threads, something's going on ... not sure the mods or any rules adjustments can do anything about that though
edit: not sure this was the best use of my 5000th comment ...
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There is always going to be drama/trolls in any medium/big forum. You can ignore them or feed them. Moderating those comments that are not breaking any rule would be censorship.
Congrats for your very rounded number of comments! :D (it could have been used in a happier setting tho, but I feel honoured^^)
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that was worth reading. ty :)
tbh.. i m just here to be entertained (brought popcorn, want some?) and knew it would be drama :/ is that bad?
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Although I do not agree with majority of things you mentioned, you raised several good points, so thanks for your input.
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With respect your edit:
Rule Breakers - Perhaps we come together and re-write the guidelines/punishments which would need to be strictly adhered to with no exceptions.
Issue permanent suspension on every member with unactivated wins, until he activated all of his missing wins in one way or another. Give him access to his keys list, and giveaway he won, so he can comment only there. This should exclude games that are no longer available in the store. Alternatively, just disable making him join any giveaways until he activated all of his wins. SGTools is already capable of checking that, SG can check too.
Permanent suspension is already implemented in the case of a third infraction. The site gives 2 opportunities to the infractor (even so they are temporally banned from the site). You can disagree wtih that, but it is how the site works. With your suggested rule I would have been permabanned from the site time ago. People deserve opportunities to learn how the system works. People who don't learn already get permabanned.
Leaked giveaways / Bots - This is beyond me but perhaps other forum members with the technical savvy such as Archi could offer assistance
If given SG user is constantly being found in giveaways he's not eligible for, he's a candidate for perma suspension as well. First incident - short 1 day suspension, then 2 weeks, then perma. User should ensure that he's joining a giveaway that he's eligible for - if he gets link to invite-only giveaway that doesn't come from giveaway creator, he should automatically assume it's leaked link. Not hard to check, should be evaluated by support during reroll request based on giveaway origin and available methods - if the same guy is being reported for the 4th time by 4 different people, likely it's not a coincidence or circle-jerk of people setting traps for him.
How do you distinguish an invalid entrant from a valid one with a 100% evidence? Also it is not so evident realizing the giveaway creator is not the same than the one who posted the link since people don't have to use the same nick on all sites.
In terms of bots, a simple "I'm not a robot" captcha appearing after each 100P being spent when trying to join a giveaway would solve the issue entirely. Limit could be adapted as-needed, 100P is good starting point, but it might be too intense, so we could bump it to 200 or 300. No captcha required for anything else, only for joining too many giveaways.
That is something that has been discussed in other threads before, and your same solution has already been suggested before.
In terms of discussions - give moderators power to not only close the thread, but also remove posts. If some thread is not going the right way, close it, if people are starting drama, suspend them for a day or two so they can rethink what they're doing, and remove their posts. Repeated offenders will receive longer vacations.
Censorship? No, thanks. Never.
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How do you distinguish an invalid entrant from a valid one with a 100% evidence? Also it is not so evident realizing the giveaway creator is not the same than the one who posted the link since people don't have to use the same nick on all sites.
SGTools checks it by login and gateway. If one wanted to reach this goal directly on SG, puzzles could similarly provide a special SG link with forced login as a gateway, so it could be analyzed later if the user reached the GAs by the gateway. Only difference would be that people who don't like the so-called spyware SGTools wouldn't be excluded.
Censorship? No, thanks. Never.
This is a website owned by cg. His house, his rules (as far as he follows the laws of the local government, but I don't even see an imprint here, so that doesn't seem to be a big issue). Censorship is related to publicity.
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There are many types of puzzles, and not all of them support that solution (for example, hidden links or codes). For the ones that can, there is already SGT. I don't know what kind of puzzles you have in mind, ITH? jigidis? I suppose ITH site could implement a similar system, but a) the developer is retired AFAIK b) then people would start hating ITH and calling it spyware :P
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I prefer a place in which I can talk freely than a place that can remove my comments and threads. If that happens some day, I will have to search another forum.
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b) then people would start hating ITH and calling it spyware :P
Probably. ^^
I prefer a place in which I can talk freely than a place that can remove my comments and threads. If that happens some day, I will have to search another forum.
So do I. But well, e.g. I also don't need to insult people personally. But personal insults are forbidden by law and at least in some countries administrators are even held responsible to remove them from their website.
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I belive in you Archi, hope cg will actually take actions after this thread!!!
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I'm not sure about this one at all.
You make some really good points and you bring up issues that should have been dealt with with by now. I've complained myself at length about private giveaway links being distributed off-site - I know it's a difficult issue to deal with but I'm sure it could have been handled better. And yes the forums are a shitstorm and most people would wish they were better and there probably are things that could be modded better. But I'm really not sure exactly what you are proposing as a solution to a few of your complaints. New powers and new mods to root out sarcasm and stupidity wherever it may be found?
And I'm not sure what points you are trying to make by sharing the opinions of your AnonymousTouhouMembers. Yeah, some of the behaviour of [redacted] isn't ideal - but I'm thinking of the people holding sufficient grudges against [redacted] to spend their time off-site bitching that if the mods don't stop protecting [redacted] then it will drive people from the site until it is left a hollow scammer-ridden shell and I'm really not coming up with anyone less salty or healthier for the community than [redacted] themselves. These are the people you want us to hold hands and walk into the light with?
It just makes it sound just a little like you have been hanging about with a bunch of drama queens, gossiping about people behind their back and plotting SG homeland security measures...
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It just makes it sound just a little like you have been hanging about with a bunch of drama queens, gossiping about people behind their back and plotting SG homeland security measures...
QFT
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Let me add to this AnonymousTouhouMember3 xD fellow: Also another thing is the fact that "oh we do not ban people participating in leaks, we can only reroll" is a bullshit excuse. If someone enters leaked GA once or twice because he found it somewhere it's fine, honest mistake is probable, but if someone follows this russian board, enters all leaked GAs and risk no punishment beside "you have small chance of getting rerolled in case you won, but nothing else" it's bs and it only encourage more rulebreaking. People entering leaked GAs risk nothing beside some imaginary points (especially those who got banned on SGT anyway since first wave of bans), they either get game or not, they only have potential gain, no potential loss, so why would they stop doing what they are doing? And no, SGT is not an answer, unless 100% of community would start using SGT for each and every private GA, and I don't think we want this.
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Support/cg policy has always being the same: Never ban an innocent, even if they have to not ban others for that. Banning an entire steam group is something that is not going to happen.
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you got me wrong, but maybe I misrepresented what I meant - I'm not talking about banning entire steam group, but I'm talking about consequences for not just leakers but leak entrants. Not whole groups, just people who enter leaked GAs. And like I said - multiple offenders, not ppl who did it once-twice. You may not know,m may not be aware of rules etc (still, we do punish ppl who didn't realise they cannot regift, don't we?), but if you get rerolled because of leak you no longer have an excuse - you already know what to look at (hey, why is this GA from other person that posted link?), and if despite that you continue to do so you are doing it fully aware, you just don't care because there's nothing to lose, only something to gain. As links can be leaked annonymously only way to fight leaks is to punish entrants as well, not just leakers. Or otherwise we may as well just remove Private GAs from SG altogether and leave public ones only - it would be more fair anyway, because then both cheaters and fair users would have the same chances to win, as it is now cheaters have better chances, as many fair users will never get to GA links they got served on a silver platter.
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Oh then I didn't get you the first time, sorry.
Leakers that give access to private giveaways to other people (forums, family, friends...). I have seen several great events get spoiled by them. And it is hard to fight against it.
The problem I see is: how do you distinguish an invalid entrant from an valid one?
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circumstancial evidence. let's say you made ITH, ITH shows there are 8 solvers, you have 8 entries, all fine and dandy, then suddenly you still have 8 solvers yet there are 20 entries in GA. Strangely enough all 12 new entrants are members of same known group associated with unfamous board... But that's just an extreme example. But what I mean in general as it is now even if you prove the user was leak-user there is no punishment. If he win only then there's minor punishment of reroll (not really harsh, as he wouldn't win otherwise anyway). If you find someone who entered SGT protected GA via leak you can report them to SGT and get them banned there, but these people can still enter other leaks in the future and probably will do so, because they will just use leaked GAs to go past SGT, maybe some creator won't check? nothing to lose, something to win. When 2hu hosted door-event Archi had a whole list of ppl who didn't go through event, who used leaks. But reporting them would do nothing again - because no punishment for using leak beside reroll, so if they don't win they avoid any punishment and go on trying. There are probably much much more examples I can mention, each will be totally different, but there are sometimes ways to tell leak-entrant. Not always, but sometimes, But so what if even if these "sometimes" cases they are free to do so, only if you maybe notice maybe you will reroll.
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In the example, it is easy to spot the 12 invalid entries. You are saying that support should ban those 12 users, right? Because if that happens now, they can just 1.reroll if one of them wins, or 2.let you remove your giveaway because it was leaked. Ok I got it now. So as the leaker most of the times can't be caught, it is being suggested to punish people who clicked on the link. I can see why support is against it, since innocent people can get involved pretty easily. Should reoffenders be punished? Maybe, since it is unfair indeed. But that wouldn't stop leakers, so it doesn't remove the problem.
And about the particular event you mention (door-event), data gathered can be easily manipulated to incriminate any user.
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Yes, I say ban 12 leak-entrants. Because reroll optrion punishes only 1/12 or 0/12 if none of them win, and GA deletion options punish all fair solvers.
Also as much as I understand data manipulation argument I'd argue that it's kinda excuse. I assume noone would go such lengths just to screw up with someone and it's saying we should not punish no offender because we assume data was falsified in the first place. Not to say that if caught falsifying data should be permabannable offense right away - same as missuse of feedback for example as it's similar case. But with that, with permaban for falsifying data I bet noone or next to noone would attempt it, should we let thousands of leaks go freely just because probably none reports will be falsified but technically they could...? Also we already accept such data already - for rerolls. I could falsify SGT theorethically to incriminate user and get a reroll and it's already accepted, so I don't really see a difference here...
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Self-claimed SG sheriffs playing "the good policeman" calling out people publicly on their unactivated wins and telling them that they're blacklisted, like who fucking cares that you blacklisted somebody.
Because someone having 10 unactivated wins with 7 of them being regifted so far really does matter. They should not be allowed here.
EDIT: However because I reported them, they were finally permabanned from the site.
Also, if you do make another site, I'd appreciate an invite. I get along with almost everyone here, have good stats, and like quality giveaways.
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EDIT: However because I reported them, they were finally permabanned from the site.
Thank you.
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There's no need to thank me. Someone would have caught them sooner or later.
If we had SGTools functionality integrated into the website itself, maybe they'd be caught the first or second time of regifting.
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I had one user with 16 unactivated wins. He is now permabanned too. But I am not sure when someone should report another user. What is the red line and what would be littering the mod-accounts? And why does the site do not an automatic check. Are there traffic reasons?
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For both of your questions I'm not sure.
There really needs to be more information on the rules and FAQ pages than is currently available.
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What is the red line and what would be littering the mod-accounts?
Report if you find someone that has broken rules and list the multiwins/nonactivations. It only takes a few seconds iirc from a support comment about checking for nonactivations in the context of sending a reroll.
And why does the site do not an automatic check.
Steam API is a piece of shit. DLC/package/game information isn't all reported. With all of the new games coming out, it's going to be a constant problem, and it's not feasible to have support make exceptions to the new stuff that is constantly added to the store. There is already a delay in free game removal/bundle list additions.
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Thanks for your answer. Did you recommend an expire date for rule breaking? I saw a lot of user with multiple wins over a year ago. Maybe they got already punished for this.
I agree with Koitenshin, there should be more information on the FAQ.
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There really isn't one. I've personally had people with infractions within the last 2 months that had been served and people with infractions 3 years old that weren't.
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I generally keep around the 6 month rule. Although some older ones got suspended by Ronix, and others let go, so who knows. I'll just report them all then let them decide.
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It's very hard to moderate when a site has grown in public so much. The chance of having more "rotten apples" is much higher.
The thing with the leakage of private/puzzle giveaways should be dealt swiftly.
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People with 100+ not delivered gifts that decide to not deliver a game
I guess there's one too many "NOT" there...
Good read. Hopefully at least oome points will get enough spotlight and get addressed by The One.
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Thing is nobody cares about the message but who sent it. I've seen calling out being praised and "reposted" yet if someone else do the same is "blacklisted" and "read the rules, you monster".
Fuck, even all of thise responses are "archi, notice me senpai, I think like you!"
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And that has to be corrected. The absolute worst I've seen is a guy asking why he got blacklisted, OP responding with the fact that he has non-activated wins, and getting suspended over calling out.
I understand the concept behind no calling out rule, but there is a gigantic difference between accusing somebody of something, and pointing out a fact. It's even more absurd if guy asks about that himself.
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I partially agree with the remake of the "calling out rule" but it can be right or wrong depening of who is calling out. But my main critic is not about that rule, it's about how "popular gifters" seem to be a free pass and "unknown people" are treated like shit.
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It's nearly impossible to create a corruption-free self-moderated society. Temptation is too great, risks are too insignificant.
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popcorn.gif people are the most annoying dregs of any forum
Declaring yourself a spectator doesn't remove your complicity in the state of the things or place yourself above it. Quite the opposite, it brandishes your choice to not participate constructively.
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After 3 months I was still making up my mind about the site and learning the ins and outs so cut him some slack.
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Fair enough, I was commenting on the general practice (and not the join date of a user).
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I assumed that you probably didn't even notice it that's why I found it worth pointing out because your comment came off a little harsh ;)
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I know the feeling. I have a long fuse but when I go off it's not a pleasant sight :D
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what the problem, there no rule that forces you to participate in any drama you encounter.
The same way i could write now, people complaining about popcorn people are the worst.
the next one then about people complaining about people complaining and so on.
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I didn't say it was a problem, just an unconstructive annoyance.
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I can't say I've seen all these issues myself, but... I will agree that cases of regifting, leaking private giveaways, and so on should be punished severely. It's one thing to give a person one chance if they weren't aware of the rules, but honestly, looking for rules should be the first thing a person does anytime they go on a new site/forum.
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(...) and in the past, I've seen some users being punished for inappropriate behaviour while others doing the same thing got off scot-free (again, not sure how it is now since I wasn't active for a long time).
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/FcyZT/new-support-users
In related news, our standard operating procedures are now up and running for team members. It'll help us to stay more consistent when moderating, and allow new users that join our team to quickly learn the ropes.
Let's hope those inconsistencies get reduced in the future with that.
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Suspending users regarding inappropriate behavior is not as linear as it seems, we're here to help the website.
Personally, when someone is reported for that category, I see if they have similar suspensions regarding the matter or if they have been warned about it.
And sometimes all of this goes under the radar, it's supposed to, and to some, who think they are entitled to something (not you, in particular, not even in general) have that mindset that some users are benefited which is utter nonsense.
And they still have the guts to complain as if we don't do our work. Users might think support work is a swift as delivering suspensions on every reported occasion, but it's not
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Ok, what I can gather from all of this is that we all agree that there are issues. Now that we've gotten that out of the way shouldn't we shift the focus to how can we fix the issues rather than continue to say that there are issues of which we can all already agree? Wouldn't it be more productive to break down the issues and start working on a solution rather than pointing fingers and saying this is your fault? If we come up with comprehensive ways to solve the problems and present them to CG in a proper fashion, I would think that there would be a better chance of our voices being heard and these things being addressed.
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Ok, these are problems. How do we solve these problems? Share your thoughts on how we should do this.
Rule Breakers - Perhaps we come together and re-write the guidelines/punishments which would need to be strictly adhered to with no exceptions Leaked giveaways / Bots - This is beyond me but perhaps other forum members with the technical savvy such as Archi could offer assistance
I know there's not just a simple overnight fix to apply to everything but lets start somewhere.
Discussion Quality
I somewhat separate this from the other "problems" as I feel that this can be corrected by us the users. Yes, there are a lot of terrible topics posted to discussions but what if we, the users that are tired of the shit posting, step up and post more meaningful content to the forums? Flood the forums with quality content making the the shit post the minority and more of a minor inconvenience. I saw a comment in this thread mentioning the expansion of categories in the forum. Perhaps that something to look into? I'm no expert but all in all nothing is perfect and we all come from different cultures, backgrounds, age groups. No one will ever be happy with everything all the time but if we all contribute, myself included, (lurker by nature) I think we can correct the discussions issue.
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Rule Breakers - Perhaps we come together and re-write the guidelines/punishments which would need to be strictly adhered to with no exceptions
Issue permanent suspension on every member with unactivated wins, until he activated all of his missing wins in one way or another. Give him access to his keys list, and giveaway he won, so he can comment only there. This should exclude games that are no longer available in the store.
Leaked giveaways / Bots - This is beyond me but perhaps other forum members with the technical savvy such as Archi could offer assistance
If given SG user is constantly being found in giveaways he's not eligible for, he's a candidate for perma suspension as well. First incident - short 1 day suspension, then 2 weeks, then perma. User should ensure that he's joining a giveaway that he's eligible for - if he gets link to invite-only giveaway that doesn't come from giveaway creator, he should automatically assume it's leaked link. Not hard to check.
In terms of bots, a simple "I'm not a robot" captcha appearing after each 100P being spent when trying to join a giveaway would solve the issue entirely. Limit could be adapted as-needed, 100P is good starting point, but it might be too intense, so we could bump it to 200 or 300. No captcha required for anything else, only for joining too many giveaways.
Added to OP.
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See this is constructive to me. We have problems and we now have solutions. I think If we could gather more responses such as this and present the issues and solutions to CG he would at the very least have to review our findings. Obviously, whether he decides to implement any of them is his decision but we can at least say that we put forth the proper effort in bettering this community.
Edit: Thank you for your response Archi.
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Rulebreakers
I'll repeat myself for the n-th time. It would be perfectly enough to allow rerolls after one/two/X months have passed from the suspension if the gifter insist to (via a checkbox on reroll form). My gift, my decision after grace period for activation has passed
captcha
At least few thousand points spent or when heuristics detects automation pattern. Pissing off majority of legit users with captchas seems excessive for catching scripters
leaks
This is a problem that should be adressed by CG. Hovewer I'd leave enterers without punishment and only had 3-strike rule on leakers. Rerolling win someone thought is theirs is punishing enough.
Leakers can be detected with near-perfect accuracy given enough GAs leaked entries data is collected, that's something SG could and should be doing (and SGT too, while SG doesn't)
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This is not just my observation, the discussions right now is a total public swamp with no rules, no moderation, crapload of shitposts and no constructive discussion whatsoever.
I could simply hide in my SG utopia aka elitist circle-jerk private giveaway group of people that are fed up like me, like I'm doing since last 2 years, but maybe before starting a war and wasting a lot of time on doing something stupid, we can fix what is broken, enforce no freaking double-standards and actually give support power to ban people, because apparently some people didn't learn shit after their 3rd suspension. Maybe if people would be afraid of crossing the line between jumping on insults, shitposts, constantly breaking the rules and not being afraid of anything, something would improve and I wouldn't feel disgusted every day I'm opening discussions, to find out about some interesting thread to look into.
Can we do something before it's too late and members that are actually building this community move elsewhere because it became a total pile of trash? I'm not in the mood of coding another giveaway site for me and ~100 more people who have enough of that, but I'm pretty sure that if I did, together with SG profile sync and people starting at their SG levels, quickly I'd divide the community into two, and this is not my intention.
I expect either several people raising hand (including silently agreeing with me, without wanting to disclose that), or a total drama thread that will quickly change into blacklists, insults and people saying how everything is okay when I'm more likely to create public L0 giveaway given to a bot capable of writing automated thanks rather than to "community" we have right now.
If you need blacklist button you can find it in my profile. I'm simply calling cg to mind before it's too late. I don't ask for dramatic changes - a few rule changes, and telling your newly-recruited support to start enforcing them - before it's too late.
JerkArchi out. Have a giveaway that perfectly relates to my opinion. And if you agree with me, it's a good moment to walk into the light and together show cg that something has to be done here.
Edit:
Because people are claiming that this thread is not constructive enough, I've included extra suggestions:
Issue permanent suspension on every member with unactivated wins, until he activated all of his missing wins in one way or another. Give him access to his keys list, and giveaway he won, so he can comment only there. This should exclude games that are no longer available in the store. Alternatively, just disable making him join any giveaways until he activated all of his wins. SGTools is already capable of checking that, SG can check too.
If given SG user is constantly being found in giveaways he's not eligible for, he's a candidate for perma suspension as well. First incident - short 1 day suspension, then 2 weeks, then perma. User should ensure that he's joining a giveaway that he's eligible for - if he gets link to invite-only giveaway that doesn't come from giveaway creator, he should automatically assume it's leaked link. Not hard to check, should be evaluated by support during reroll request based on giveaway origin and available methods - if the same guy is being reported for the 4th time by 4 different people, likely it's not a coincidence or circle-jerk of people setting traps for him.
In terms of bots, a simple "I'm not a robot" captcha appearing after each 100P being spent when trying to join a giveaway would solve the issue entirely. Limit could be adapted as-needed, 100P is good starting point, but it might be too intense, so we could bump it to 200 or 300. No captcha required for anything else, only for joining too many giveaways.
In terms of discussions - give moderators power to not only close the thread, but also remove posts. If some thread is not going the right way, close it, if people are starting drama, suspend them for a day or two so they can rethink what they're doing, and remove their posts. Repeated offenders will receive longer vacations.
Implementing those 4 things - severe suspensions, anti-leakers, anti-bots and moderation of discussions would heavily help with nearly everything I listed, as automatically we'd also solve majority of calling out problems.
It also wasn't my intention to make a thread that looks like an attack, it's probably just my way of putting up words connected together with inner sadness how things are getting down as the time goes. After all I want to point out problems and suggest how we can deal with them, to improve SG community, not make it worse.
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