Opinions
I don't see the big deal with the region locks - it doesn't affect me because I don't try to trade games for profit after buying from a cheaper region, and frankly I don't care about those people who do.
I agree that workshop mods costing money is stupid, people should be able to use whatever mods they want to - unless of course it's the people who MADE the mods who are charging, then that is their choice, I guess. You shouldn't NEED mods to play, but some are great to have.
From my experience, the "trading is dead/dying" is because of all the scammers getting people who aren't scamming/hijacking banned. This is speaking from my experience. I gave up on buying and reselling on outpost after getting a month long account lock for receiving stolen goods that there was no way I could have known they were from a hijacked account. The month long lock was due to shitty Steam support basically forgetting about my ticket and taking days/weeks to reply... So, to hell with trading, it's too risky with all the stupid people letting their accounts get hijacked.
I don't notice the client being slow, but it sure is really annoying to want to update so damn often. I haven't noticed any inconsistent download speeds, but I've noticed the Steam community crashing at least every other day.
Steam support is complete shit, yes, I completely agree that was my experience.
I wouldn't call "Early Access" a scam, but for me it is a ripoff, and I don't generally buy any of those games, with a few exceptions. It's too easy to get crappy games, and I certainly agree that they could use some quality control over Greenlit games.
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Slight correction there, I haven't called Early Access itself a "scam" I just said that it is a platform that is easily abused and can give space to questionable games/developer studios.
Trading is indeed plagued by scammers, but if the support would be more up to the task then they would be able to crack down on hackers, scammers, hijackers etc. Instead Valve chose the easier option and punished everybody who were interested in trading.
Here is a personal example: 7 day lock on items purchased, uncrated etc. really? It's like you pay for something but you don't really own it. I remember uncrating valuable christmas items, but due to the 7 day lock I was unable to flip them for quick profit as by the time they were unlocked the prices have already dropped. Also the trade lock on my items bugged out so I was unable to trade them for more than 10 days, the support hasn't responded and when they did the items were already worth next to nothing as the christmas hype was over.
For me the client is slow and buggy, and it always have been sometimes it just plain won't load the storefront etc. It might be just my own personal experience but this is not my main complaint against Valve/Steam anyway.
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Ah, I stand corrected about the scam part, but I agree otherwise.
MAJORLY improved support is a huge necessity. You'd think with all the money they make, they could make the people not wait a week for a copy & paste reply to a ticket...
Also, trying to address the cause of hijacking and scamming would go a long way I think. They have improved a tiny bit with the email validation, but it still isn't enough. All those bots with their phishing links that stupid people (or people in a hurry) go to, not to mention the stuff people download to try and get an edge or free shit... I wish people would pay more attention to what they click on. If people just take 2 seconds to read before going to the links, so many hijacks could be prevented.
The 7 day lock after buying an item on the market place doesn't fix the underlying cause of how people are scamming/hijacking items in the first place. I noticed the lock period when I tried to flip something myself, and immediately thought "wow, that's kinda dumb..." I think the reason it's 7 days is because that's almost how long it takes their support to even look at a ticket. Heh...
I prefer to do most of my Store shopping in a browser, I find the lack of multiple tabs in the client super frustrating to have to hit back constantly... so it takes more time for that, but not usually from slow loading.
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modders were aware that modding was mostly sharing stuffs
they had to be aware that no money was involved, and some went just to accept donations and that's all.
perhaps "modders" claiming money for their "work" should be forced to pay authors of all the mods they have ever used
now the modding part of the game will go crazy and this will expand to future games having this feature and beyond. all these will be considered as "even more optional" dlcs, non-official, yet they will share similar unfair post-release and post-buy advertising for the game inciting people to buy them
they didn't try to fix what's not broken but to fuck what was working. and of course steam will hit money from this
hope this doesn't expand outside steam already
whatever. fuck this
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It already expanded beyond Steam, just read the comments in the topic.
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Also, hey, the debut pack's full price is approx. $50. Still fair? Didn't think so.
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Oh yeah it's "just" the price of the entire game and all the DLCs for it. (a game that had a budget of $80.000.000 an hundreds of qualified experts working on it)
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Now this is just getting ridiculous and plain pathetic.
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Huh.
I'm not sure how to feel about this. Seems shady, but then again I wonder about exactly what scale of transaction spam they're expecting. I suppose if somebody puts up a popular mod for £0.05, that's going to be an absolute ton of transactions that would be doubled up on if they immediately processed them through to the owner. Though that doesn't explain why they can't just process the earned money to the modder on a monthly basis.
The part where they only get 25% is utter bullshit though. Hell even 50% might be more understandable given steam would be hosting the content, and they may need to slip a slice of that earnings to the original creator of the game (as per trading cards, etc), but still? 25%?
There's no reason to have a problem with modders being able to sell their work, but at only 25% of the earnings?
Urgh.
I wonder if Valve will run into legal troubles about the $100 payout mark. That won't fly everywhere.
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It technically is a monthly payout, but only if you hit the $100 mark by that point in the month.
The low percentage payout for modders seems to be the biggest cause for a lot of the negative reactions. I'd be curious to see the split between Bethesda and Valve. At least Bethesda had to create the game and assets. I think a 45/45 split between Bethesda and the modder, with 10% to Valve, would be fair.
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http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/workshoppaymentinfofaq
"Q. Is there a minimum revenue I must earn before I can receive a payment?
A. Yes. There are costs associated with issuing each individual payment as well as potential bank fees charged to you upon receiving money that make it prohibitive to pay out for small amounts of money. Therefore, we may hold your payment until a minimum of $100 payout is earned."
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Thanks for the highlight.
After having bought lots of small items through paypal (on an upgraded account), that extra little charge can really mount up, so I can understand some degree of precaution, but $100 seems a little excessive. Then again, I'm not privy to the inner workings of their accounts (let alone any business with this much traffic and cross-borders).
The part about the modder only scoring 25% of the payout is utterly ridiculous though.
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I can understand them wanting to wait until its a sufficient amount, but $100 is outrageous, especially when you consider the mods most likely to sell are going to need to be cheap. Meanwhile, Valve and Bethesda get their money now, with the modder getting their's at some future point.
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Well i can already guess what type of Mod the full Elder Scrolls mod that they are working on will be. Paid, and probably will cost more than the game itself (looking at the DLCs that cost more than the game itself :D... ).
Well I've ditched Steam for some time. I've decided to not buy any games on Steam with my own money (when i get money from cards or items, sure i buy something, but not with my own). I've switched to buying from GoG. Already have a small library and I can't wait for the Witcher 3 !
Steam is just becoming a terrible place for gaming. First greenlight and the shitstorm it released and now this. Sure you are supporting the modders by buying their mods, but I can already see the future of modding becoming paid. Next thing is having Nexusmods become a paid site, following the example set by Steam.
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Statement from Nexusmods it seems like they are not really fond of the idea.
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I doubt the community will be able to stand against this epidemic of greed. Greed affects everyone.
I mean, hell, the rate at which people switch from free mods to paid-for-mods? Midas Magic? Really? Yeah, that's in the shitter now.
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Pay for mods I think not now if it were an optional donation i'd consider it for actual good mods, why would I pay for something upfront that may or may not even work?
I guess i'll be using Nexus mods a hell of a lot more again, Valve is the new EA nickle and dime people in the market place and now with mods.
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I think that this can be a good thing and a bad thing, let me explain it:
GOOD = Because u can access to new quality material that the game didn't have, for example, having 2 playable characters that the game like MK X didn't have for a cheaper price than a DLC, and u gonna have content community driven that u can obtain and is not a must get for playing the game (Because if you have the game is because u like it and more if you are downloading mods). With this point taken this can maybe force to the game developers to launch better games or at least with more content because if they launch incomplete games a modder will put it in the game for a cheaper price and profit out of it.
BAD= It can run into a loop of bad mods that will cost money and don't be accesible for everyone (i think that there will be still free mods because if u are thinking about the fact that modders wanted money for the work that they do... that means that no 1 would be modding for free or for fun so...) Maybe some people will get greedy but u dont have to buy the mod if you dont want to.
(I never used mods and i think that i never will)
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Oh look, a circlejerk and a duplicate.
This isn't introducing paid modding. Any modder could happily host their stuff behind a paywall at any time, this just gives them an in-steam means of doing it (while also sacrificing a major chunk of their profits just to advertise it on an easy-list page). The only way this will be a bad thing is if everyone starts charging, but blaming the ability to charge and not those who opt to do so is shortsighted. Either people will grouch and pay up which would give modders a reason to provide quality work (and perhaps get people to up their game), or it will reveal that people are unwilling to pay for certain mods and the pricetag will either have to be removed or their work is dead in the water.
"I'd recommend that you refrain from repeating popular comments like "finally modders get paid for their hard work" etc. it'll just make you look silly, you obviously have no clue"
As silly as blaming the host service for the decisions of the modders themselves? As silly as implying Valve is worse than EA? Or as silly as saying 'discuss' but then giving a strong impression you will mock people who disagree and engage in discourse? :3c
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I hear steam take 75% and the modder gets 25% money grabbing Valve at any rate if i put any mods up for any games they will be free ;)
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Biased poll = umad 2.0
Not sure if I'm in the minority, but I believe giving mod creators the option (it is optional) to charge is a good one. Some will no doubt overcharge for half-assed work, but soon enough the cream will rise to the top as it tends to do. The only downside I see of this is the centralization of certain modding communities (although I suppose that could be a positive to a newcomer on the modding scene).
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Yeah the poll is pretty biased, it's more of a joke really. Unfortunately I cannot alter it after I started the thread.
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While i'm all for helping out modders that actually want help this is not the way to do it. Valve is taking 75% for one and there's already people on that shop who are stealing other people's work and uploading it as their own for $$. There's literally no attempt by Valve to check if someone is uploading his own work or not. Valve has screwed up before but this is their stupidest idea yet.
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The initial implementation certainly feels like a fumble.
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To me it feels more like them trying to see if they can get away with this crap. Proof that this is the case would be that they just pulled this "Feature" out of their asses. You'd think they'd advertise this in advance but no, they knew there would be a lot of controversy and making it public would cause a shitstorm and maybe kill the whole thing before it even got off the ground.
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TL:DR= i dont like change
modding wont die, if you charge for a shitty mod, no-one will buy it, and potentially great mod creators will create even better stuff.
About region locking, has a reason behind it, dont like move to brazil or indonesia and lets see if youll keep complainning.
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Yeah, because you think people will earn the same salary as in Germany or USA right? So lets say I move to brazil, oh look, cheap prices!!! Now I just need to find a way to make Brazilian Reales worth the same as Euros and find a job that will pay me the same or its equivalent in Brazilian Reales as my German job did in Euros!
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Valve there's a magical stuff call "donatin link". I mean, if mod ders want money, let them post a fucking link and be done with it, In fact, add a feature to INCLUDE a donation section with a bar and all those goodies. Seems like Valve is just trying to make tax money.
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A vital point worth considering : Won't the creators of the original game have to give Valve the okay to do this? Sales of additional items require the owning company to enter an agreement with Valve, and not every company is going to feel happy about the idea of shafting modders with a 25% slice.
Again, it's worth considering that this will only be a problem if the modders themselves opt into it AND the owner of the original game is cool with it taking place. Scowling at Valve alone and expecting all modders to suddenly put pricetags on their work is a bit blinkered.
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Obviously Bethesda already agreed to this concept, it's probably a prototype and the rest of the developers will see how it goes and opt-in eventually. I'm sure there will be die-hard indie studios advocating freely available modding so it is unlikely that all moddable games will have this paid modding support.
You see "modders themselves opting into it" is a tiny bit more complicated. I can speak for Skyrim, it is never one modder and solely his own products and creations. It's a long read but hopefully it is worth your time.
For example: Isoku's Wet and Cold mod uses the "industry-standard" SKSE Skyrim Script Extender to achieve doing what it does, without SKSE it wouldn't be possible to create the mod. SKSE was developed by an entirely different team, and they made their extender open-source and freely available to all modders (around 80% of Skyrim mods rely on SKSE). Now legally every modder is obliged to pay a part to SKSE further fragmenting their tiny 25% income. Furthermore there are mods like TESVEdit, Wrye Bash etc. used for developing/creating mods. These softwares were all released by different groups of modders and made freely available to everyone.
Then again Isoku uses assets, elements, scripts from other modders (with permission) namely: SparrowPrince, verteiron, trebtreb, lorelai2009,Omesean, seanbonaker, drsoupiii, Northborn, frankdema, TreasureChest, OG-Jay, tumbajamba, DVAted, Targaryen, Arthmoor, xlwarrior, Slavovitsh, starfis, JackLaVaporiera, nakadi5963, raphou112
So that's around a group of 30 people, so the mod costs £4. Isoku gets 25% which is £1, the £1 is divided by the 30 modders who contributed to the mod so they make £0.03 "profit" each. What's the point?
Chances are that the SKSE team who made the high level modding of Skyrim possible won't see a single penny from the monetization of modding.
Also SKSE is licensed and they will probably oppose the monetization of modding, what if they decide to sue Isoku and all the other Skyrim modders out there? They have every right to do so, and Valve soon finds itself in a mess of lawsuits.
You see Skyrim modding community is so deeply interconnected, relying and drawing on each other's knowledge, assets, toolsets etc. that it is impossible to give monetary credit to everybody. The Nexus forums are already on fire, people are divided and raging. Mods had to lock up the discussion thread on many mods (which could have been used for troubleshooting etc). So it already had a devastating effect on the Nexusmods community.
(Ooops huge f**king wall of text here, but it really goes to the root of the problem)
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Oh yeah, definitely. I actually mentioned in another post that I wonder about the legal issues that will arise from this. Imagine the hassle caused if somebody sells a relatively successful mod that uses uncredited assets made by others, all it takes is for a single pay-out (hell, even a single purchase) to really make things messy. I didn't even consider how many people chip into larger scale mods. Even non-profit works occasionally run into personal clashes and separations due to 'artistic differences', so with money as a new factor? Egh. You're right though, it does further make the 25% margin that bit more laughable. Moreso when you consider that the price-point even for larger mods will likely be under £3 unless they are complete overhauls (or in Skyrim's case, add huge swathes of tailored land and content).
Though as far as my original remark about modders themselves having to choose to take part, that stands. It just means that the mod creator will have to obtain the permission of all people they gathered content from before attempting to sell. Though at that point, it is out of Steam's hands or ability to moderate that the mod creator actually upholds their agreement with the others. The biggest problem I can see is actually that relatively unknown (or new) content creators will be easy to sweep aside if their content is jacked. What kind of dispute process will Valve use for these things, and how exactly can they check the claims accurately?
It would be pretty amusing if the SKSE Script Extender guys outright denied the usage of anything made with their stuff for resale~
As for the wall of text? Haha, don't worry. Some things are worth saying in full. I'm guilty of terrible word-padding just because people loving to intentionally misinterpret things I say so they can avoid the point. S'all good!
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Yeah, content theft and plagiarism is why this is terrible idea. It could maybe work if Valve didn't burn money on useless side project no one wants but finally hired good support tea... HAHAHAHA, no, hell will freeze first before Valve tries to raise customer satisfaction. I expect this concept to devolve into mess Apple and Google app stores almost became, except both had huge teams to manage them. Valve is dreaming if they think uncurated approach will work -.-"
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SKSE uses MIT license so I don't think they will sue anyone unless they change the license
https://tldrlegal.com/license/mit-license
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"Also SKSE is licensed and they will probably oppose the monetization of modding, what if they decide to sue Isoku and all the other Skyrim modders out there? They have every right to do so, and Valve soon finds itself in a mess of lawsuits."
Would they really? On the SKSE website they post the legal disclaimer of the MIT license, which permits the use and selling of the software in question. If that's the case, then legally speaking they're not owed any revenue that modders earn.
"You see Skyrim modding community is so deeply interconnected, relying and drawing on each other's knowledge, assets, toolsets etc. that it is impossible to give monetary credit to everybody."
Which is precisely why modders will want to sell wholly original content. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
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Finally modders get paid for their hard work.
Jokes aside it is an idea that if executed properly could not suck thus it is completely and utterly absurd to implement it into anything less than a perfect system. If we take all humans out of steam it could work. Maybe.
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Not anything but when talking about introducing new ideas people forget too often that when it boils down to it good ideas, systems, rules or whatever are far less relevant than the comparison of how much is put into making it work and how much is against it. And in most cases what is actually due to the issue at hand is dwarfed by everything else intruding.
For mods specifically I think that without solving the current copyrights and digital media in the world there are only two reasonable approachs to paid modding. One would require it being from launch of the game so that the community builds around the idea. The other is for specific cases to transit into something like official expansions(this is not that uncommon and has both worked wonderfully and flopped like hell). Regardless of which path many problems will pop up that would require someone(likely the developer and/or publisher) to spend significant effort into dealing with though the former due to scope will require far more.
Doing it any other way and expecting it to work is wishful thinking though if the goal is not to make it work you can certainly get benefits from doing it.
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the only bad thing that i can see with it, and is a BIG bad thing.. is that now.... Steam is the owner of modding, and that is terrible not only to other services but to gamers too, what if i want a GOG copy, now i cant mod it. well shiet... so yeah that my thing now xd
all my problems and pros with this perfectly explained by TB
like he said, a Paetron model was a way better idea.
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Go here for the petition against it:
https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop
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-Pay a few cents for a Mod well done, is something acceptable ....
-Pay for simple crap is unacceptable ....
The Steam only sells stupid mods, and at a high price!!!!!!
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but respect dosent pay the rent, very talented people spend their time making some mods, time they could have used working and making actual money.
everyones time is worth something i dont think its an insult, or against modding to charge for them, some people already do it, and they create great stuff.
PS: im not 100% supporting Valve with this thing just saying.
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Yeah i know that but when start to mod a game you don't do it looking for money. And you do it during your free time (I did the majority of my modding during school actually) Plus there is a certain satisfaction about having your mod posted after having spent months on it. To quote one of the veteran guys in my community "Modding is half the fun" So thats a little bonus ;)
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well thanks to ideas like this one, maybe better ones, now you can go into modding hoping to get payed, even dedicate more time to it.
i used to create mods for the Jedi Knight games, i stoped because work and life that kind of stuff, and like you and me there are a ton of guys who made amazing stuff but just can give it the time anymore.
I dont think a modder asking for money for their time and hard work spend on it is bad in any way, the way valve is doing it is the bad thing.
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Yeah if people want to donate that's fine. I was just referring to going into modding and charging for it and only modding for income. I've seen some donate buttons with mods. To the one guy i talked to about it he has got nothing from it. But thats what happens when in a small community,
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yeah, donating to creators was a better way to do this.
My thing here is that modders have all the right if they want to ask for money for mods. =P
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and thats the thing, Bethesda has always been a supporter for mods, they made tools, and set systems around develoment to help modding.
but they have been the exception, GTA V does not support mods, but if they knew they could get some money out of the mods people will create for their game maybe they would rethink it. Imagine all the stuff people could create with oficial tools for GTA V, loaders, scripters and files already all set to take modding.
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more like 1%, i like the idea that a modder can get payed for their hard work if they think is worth it.
i dont like that valve has the control of it.
i dont like how valves support deals with content theft,
i dont like that valve is taking 75%!!! of all mods, thats outrageous considering that is not their game and is not their content, they are just hosing it and charging 75%! thats nuts.
dont like the terms and agreament about how a patch can brake a mod and if you payed for it now you are just f*cked, nothing you can do about it.
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@jacobjub Yeah, it is weird!
@luchingador A "donation button" would be the best option. Anyone can donate what they want or can. What valve and bethesda did is just against the gaming community. It has no sense, is about profit and monopoly.
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75%?!?! WTF... really, people are going to stop using the Workshop and get the mods elsewhere in that case.
And if Valve starts filtering what mods are "good" to play on Steam then people will migrate to GOG's DRM-free games altogether.
This whole payed mods thing is madness, then again there's always people with too much money and out of ideas on what to spend it on, and thus we have such monstrosities as Early Access, Digital Pre Orders (physical I can somewhat understand), a metric shit ton of DLCs that include stripped content... company's love milking their customers and in the end we have to vote with our wallets, sadly a lot of rich or uneducated people prefer to give them all the cash they ask for.
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Discuss.
[UPDATE]
Seems like the mod authors themselves are really enjoying the new system. This is all so good for modders/players alike huh? Nuff said.
[IMPORTANT PART]
So yeah RIP Skyrim modding pretty much, trading is dead/dying, region locks are getting crazier every day and heck even the TF2 economy is pretty much gone (I just throw it in the pile). Fear not we still have a shitty, laggy slow client, inconsistent download speeds and Steam servers collapsing during bigger events/sales or just whenever they feel like it. Outrageously bad support, big profile Early Access scams and failures (Spacebase df-9, WarZ, Stomping Land). Complete lack of quality control and responsibility over Greenlight (and in turn store content).
[TL;DR PART]
To tell the truth, I'd be fine with the rest of the issues, I could live with region restrictions, Early Access, Greenlight etc as they do not directly affect my personal gaming experience (although I do disapprove of them and I happily express my opinion)
Introducing paid modding is the last straw and it is way over the line. It directly kills off the most loved aspect of gaming for me. I am one of those special people who prefer modding games to playing them. I am already supporting modders over at the Nexus, but I will not pay £400-500/game to get all the 100+ mods I love to configure, test and use. I don't think it is unreasonable. If you don't have a clue about modding in general, or you are not a mod user then I'd recommend that you refrain from repeating popular comments like "finally modders get paid for their hard work" etc. it'll just make you look silly, you obviously have no clue.
More on modding (Skyrim Specific)
Thank you for expressing your opinion in a civil manner. I understand that this is a controversial area and might be grounds for heated debate but please refrain from insulting each other.
Also the poll is just a joke.
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