I subscribe this writing point by point. I have to leave now so I might expand this comment later.
I think the Cargo Commmander offer might also have been a pricing error. It was 90sth% off and costed 40 cents.
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+1
A new rule of thumb is emerging:
If a Gamersgate offer looks like an Amazon offer, it's an error and will be revoked, so just keep walking...
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NONE of the reason in the OP are valid at all except for #7 after some time is provided to see if the refund comes. GG has no obligation to honor pricing mistakes, despite what some morons want to believe, provided they refund the full amount.
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Should be called reasons why stupid, unreasonable, greedy people are upset with GG.
If anyone here is perfect at your job, never made a mistake, and never misspoke, then by all means, rage at GG. But since nobody is perfect, grow the hell up and get over it already.
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But who is this "Tony" - Man of Mystery?
Aside from "a marketing rep at Amazon"?
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How many keys have been revoked from Steam libraries so far? :o I missed this development!
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The PERMANENT IGN 15% off, which they took down, already f*cked up my interest in GG
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After the IGN fiasco, I only came back to IGN to complete the IndieFort Countdown Bundle (mostly bought that with my remaining blue coins) but they handled that very poorly too. (I'm still waiting on one Steam key) I was planning on never getting back there to buy games.
The Bethesda bundle mega-sale made me think about giving them a second chance, seeing as they looked like they would be honoring the purchases. They've pretty much lost me as a customer for good now after they backpedaled and just yanked bundles away from people who paid for them.
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This honestly seems like some sort of terrible marketing ploy. Why else would there be so many pricing errors spread out over the course of a week?
Rather than thinking that the company is out to get you, do you not think it's possible that someone is out to get the company? Disgruntled worker making his mark before leaving?
The world isn't against you..
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Their official response does make sense. However, I still have a hard time getting over the fact that they first announced that people would get their keys mid-january, then they yank bundles out of people's accounts.
Had they said from the get go that it was a mistake and they would work on fixing it, instead of hinting at people actually getting the missing keys, I think they wouldn't have got the same level of backlash as they are getting now.
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As far as I'm concerned, if you had received some of the keys, it shouldn't be removed. I've seen lots of "This person said it was removed", but no can post any proof. It sucks that they went against what they had about honoring every purchase, but anyone with common sense and that doesn't think they're entitled to the world should realize that 99% you won't receive the item that had a price error. If the games had to be shipped rather than digital distribution, no one would have received ANY as they would have all been cancelled before they were shipping.
I still have my Borderlands 4 pack and they've even added "Show serial key" button for my 3 gift copies which wasn't there yesterday. I had received the one key before they started issuing refunds so my experience goes along with what they said they will do in their most recent announcement.
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Really? It's easier for you to believe in a bullshit story that some disgruntled douche is doing this by purpose rather than that they needed this sort of marketing? A company which, by all accounts, sucked even before all of this. How fucking dumb do you have to be to allow same shit to keep on repeating in and out during THE most important week (for all sellers) in a course of 365 days? Pretty fucking dumb if you ask me. I'd rather settle with the simple fact that they couldn't keep up with Steam or GoG (one is specialized in newer titles while the other one is specialized in older titles) and they simply needed people to see their website. I'm pretty confident that they've earned quite a buck, despite all of this. Think of all those publishers that are now paying top $$ to get their game on 'front' page. But then again, it's just me. I've hated GG for quite some time. So, I'm kinda enjoying this.
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Shouldn't have hoarded as many copies as gifts and they wouldn't have all been cancelled and refunded.
Others have pointed out it was an error in the code and not a disgruntled worker. That doesn't rule out that the error could have been implemented maliciously.
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"Also. IGN 15% off. Forever mad."
Funny, before it was "Never again" instead of "Forever mad" from those who lost their IGN discount. Everyone changed their tune when they saw the Bethesda bundle, lol. Boycotting until the next great deal again isn't going to do much :P
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i won cargo commander on here and still haven't been able to get a key from GG this thread shows me that GG probably won't ever give me a key
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It is illegal to force refunds after the completed purchase of a product
Define "purchase completed".
AFAIK, a online purchase is completed after the goods have been exchanged. So as long as this isn't the case, any party can say "sorry, I'm no longer interested in your offer", as long as the already exchanged items are refunded.
At least this is how it's handled in Germany, I am not familiar with laws in other countries.
So with this in mind, their rule "such price change will not affect your purchase price for orders that GamersGate has already received from you and processed" would still be okay, because if you did not receive a key, your order has obviously not been completely processed.
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That for sure is not how it works in Germany, neither how it works in a lot of other european countries. You are wrong about how and when a contract is formed. You are wrong about beeing able to dissolve an agreement at any time before the goods have been exchanged and are wrong about the binding effect of the term you quoted.
To be exact, it's almost the complete opposite of everything you said. I am not sure who told you that stuff, but I it's just not true.
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§ 346 BGB Wirkungen des Rücktritts
(1) Hat sich eine Vertragspartei vertraglich den Rücktritt vorbehalten oder steht ihr ein gesetzliches Rücktrittsrecht zu, so sind im Falle des Rücktritts die empfangenen Leistungen zurückzugewähren und die gezogenen Nutzungen herauszugeben.
(2) Statt der Rückgewähr oder Herausgabe hat der Schuldner Wertersatz zu leisten, soweit
Ist im Vertrag eine Gegenleistung bestimmt, ist sie bei der Berechnung des Wertersatzes zugrunde zu legen; ist Wertersatz für den Gebrauchsvorteil eines Darlehens zu leisten, kann nachgewiesen werden, dass der Wert des Gebrauchsvorteils niedriger war.
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Ja, und? Ich kenne die Norm, aber was willst du mir damit jetzt sagen? ^^
Soll ich für dich jetzt eine BGB AT Vorlesung halten und dir die Grundlagen der Rechtsgeschäftslehre erklären, damit du mir glaubst, dass ein Vertrag nicht erst mit den Erfüllungsgeschäften entsteht, du ein Verpflichtungsgeschäft nicht einfach jederzeit auflösen kannst (etwas anderes steht ja auch gar nicht im von dir zitierten § 346 BGB) und wie du Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen und deren (eventuelle) Bindungswirkung in diesem Kontext zu verordnen hast?
// Basically asked him why he posted a legal norm of our civil law that has not much to do with what he said and if he really needs me to explain to him, why he still is wrong.
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Laut Fernabsatzgesetz kommt ein Vertrag erst zustande, wenn das Produk den Händler verlässt. Solange kann der Händler vom Vertrag zurücktreten, solange die erbrachten Leistungen zurückerstattet werden. Das will ich mit dem BGB Auszug untermauern, schliesslich liefert hier niemand anderes Fakten, nur leere Phrasen.
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Actually, it is considered 'processed' once money exchanges hands. By taking money from peoples PayPal/Bank etc. they are committing to a contract whereby they agree the displayed sale price and will provide the goods offered for the payment received.
Just because they didn't supply those goods it doesn't mean it wasn't processed. It means they took your money and didn't supply the goods they agreed which is actually illegal.
By sending tweets whereby they agreed to provide keys by "mid January" and saying that refunds were "optional" they are confirming the fact they accept that a sale was made and they have to keep to that sale.
By forcing some people into refunds they are breaching EU legislation, they can't process a refund unless both parties agree. In most cases it seems the consumers don't agree to this refund, they want their keys.
In terms of the mishaps since the Bethesda one, people can't complain as much because it was known by then that their system or someone working for them was fucking with the prices and they made no comment about a commitment to fulfil those orders by 'X time'.
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As I said, I don't know about European law in general.
That's why I said that my explanation is only valid for German law.
In this case, an online shop uses the site to present a product.
A buyer can see the product and gives an "offer" (aka pressing the BUY button). Usually the buyer does not have the option to set a price, so he is offering to buy the advertised product at the advertised price.
The buyer can now choose a payment option (and enter other info, yadda, yadda, ...).
Remember: We are still in the process of advertising and offering!
The online shop will now most likely send you a confirmation that they have received your offer (still no contract).
The buyer has to pay the advertised price (still no contract; also this and the previous step might be switched).
The seller/supplier receives the payment (or acts as he he already has it in case of Credit Card payment or Paypal) and sends the requested product to the buyer. As soon as the product is on its way to the buyer, a valid contract has been made (for shipped goods it actually starts as soon as the product leaves the supplliers hands, not just when the buyer receives it).
Again: this applies to German law. I don't know if this is also valid for International / EU law.
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In the UK, and as far as I know the EU in general, when money changes hands is the point the contract is confirmed and they have agreed to the sale. Not the point the product is sent/received/whatever.
As I said above, that's further supported by their tweets where they agree to keep to the original sales and they'll just be delivered later in January. That right there is them agreeing to keep to those sales.
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Quoting from the Spanish Real Decreto Legislativo 1/2007 Source
*Artículo 61. Integración de la oferta, promoción y publicidad en el contrato.
Whichs translates roughly into the following.
Integration of and offer, advertsing and a promotion in the contract.
1: Blah lah blah
2: The content, offer, promotion, deal, advertised item, services or goods offered, juridic and economic conditions and guarantees offered can be demanded by consummers and users even if they are not explicity displayed on the contract, document or receipt received.
3: This does not apply if the conditions would imply more benefits, then those conditions will prevail over the offer.
From the Junta of Andalucia Servicio al Consumidor
Se ha agotado un producto en promoción y quieren cambiármelo por otro de características similares, pero de una calidad inferior. ¿Es esto posible?
No es posible. En estos casos deben realizar el cambio siempre por otro de características similares, o superior, en ningún caso de marca o calidad inferior.
Which means that if a product is out of stock and it was part of a promotion or an offer it must be replaced with other one with SIMILAR or BETTER features.
From the Centro Europeo del Consumidor en España
*Las ofertas
Las ofertas o propuestas de contratación realizadas por vía electrónica serán válidas durante el período que fije el oferente o, en su defecto, durante todo el tiempo que permanezcan accesibles a los destinatarios del servicio.*
Wich resumes in that offers will be valid throughout all the time that they are ACCESIBLE to the consumers.
I think they are at least breaking some Spanish laws, maybe some more but I'm too tired to continue my search. I can add them on other occasion though.
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That is false, the spanish civil code article 7 states that any of your rights cannot be used to hurt anyone else, in fact there are similar cases like this that went to court and the judges clearly said exactly this :)
A partir de aquí podemos considerar que la actuación del Sr. Benito es constitutivo de un abuso de derecho, por cuanto atendido el precio ridículo por el cual el Sr. Benito pretende adquirir los ordenadores, resulta evidente que, consciente de ello, se está aprovechando del error manifiesto sufrido por el oferente y dicha pretensión no puede ser amparada por los tribunales en virtud de los artículos 7 del Código Civil y 11.2 de la LOPJ.
It says that Mr. Benito is doing an abuse of rights, since the price he is trying to get for the laptops is stupid, and he is pretty much obvious to that fact, so he is taking advantage of a mistake and that will never be accepted before the spanish laws.
Art. 7
Los derechos deberán ejercitarse conforme a las exigencias de la buena fe.
La ley no ampara el abuso del derecho o el ejercicio antisocial del mismo. Todo acto u omisión que por la intención de su autor, por su objeto o por las circunstancias en que se realice sobrepase manifiestamente los límites normales del ejercicio de un derecho, con daño para tercero, dará lugar a la correspondiente indemnización y a la adopción de las medidas judiciales o administrativas que impidan la persistencia en el abuso.
That pretty much says that your rights are tied to good faith, and that any act based on your rights that will cause harm to a third party will not be tolerated.
So you see, you don't even know your own laws... stop trying to rip off some poor company for a few cents, and stop trying to be seen as a victim, you are not right in any case.
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I know that part too. The goods have to be adquired in good faith, and I explained that somewhere else. I think that getting a pack of an offer for 28$ is not wrong in any situation. I fail to see that as an abuse, sorry.
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Worth and price are two very different things. They may have set the price at $300, that doesn't mean that's what it's worth. Most of the games were old and have all been on sale.
Based off retail price on Steam:
Total: $108.75 (makes sense considering what Steam priced theirs at - $90).
At 75% off - $27.18 (which is very close to what the actual price was - $28.76).
Both Amazon and Steam have had very good deals this winter (Amazon especially). 75% off is not uncommon. Amazon was even able to offer us 75% on Scribblenauts Unlimited, which is a very new game. Considering that it was near Christmas time, and other retailers were able to offer excellent discounts, it wouldn't be far-fetched for anyone to think that GamersGate was offering the bundle at that price.
Edit: For reference, here is a bundle from Amazon with a retail value of $250 being sold for $30. Not a pricing error.
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Refer to Memorscop's answer he already worded what I was going to say. Sincerely I didn't see it as a pricin error at first. Simply a very good deal.
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Gamersgate is a swedish company, this is illegal in sweden, under Konsumentköplag (1990:932)
https://lagen.nu/1990:932#R10
Rough Translation:
Seller's delay
What is meant by delay
9 § Delay on the seller exists if the product is not delivered or is delivered late and this is not due to the buyer or any circumstance on his side.
Penalties for delays
10 § In case of delay on the seller the buyer may withhold payment under § 11. He may choose to require the seller to fulfill the purchase under § 12, or to cancel the purchase in accordance with § 13. In addition, the buyer may claim damages from the seller under § 14.
Right to withhold payment
§ 11 The buyer is allowed to retain as much of the payment required to give him security for his claim because of the delay.
Right to require performance by the seller purchase
§ 12 The buyer may adhere to the purchase and require the seller to fulfill purchase.
The seller is not obliged to fulfill the bargain, if there is an obstacle he can not overcome or if the fulfillment would require unreasonable sacrifices in the interest of the buyers demand that the seller fulfills the purchase.
If a relationship just mentioned cease within a reasonable time, the buyer may require the seller to fulfill the purchase.
The buyer loses the right to require performance by the seller avoided unless he is waiting unreasonably long to make the claim.
In addition paragraph 13 and 14 goes in to the buyers right to cancel the purchase and demand compensation for delay or cancelled purchase.
Personal Comments:
The consumer is right in this dispute and gamersgate may not forcefully refund the consumer, who has right to demand and receive the product.
The buyer has the right to require the seller to fulfill purchase. If it would require significant financial and physical sacrifices from the seller to perform so he can get from his duty, but it must be objectively impossible, it must not be something that depends on the seller as a person. It can for instance be a product that is completely unique and it has been destroyed.
The buyer must notify the seller within a reasonable time that he wants the seller to fulfill purchase.
YOU JUST GOT LAW-SLAPPED! AW YEEEAH.
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Thanks for the info ;)
I hope you didn't expect me to be familiar with every country's laws in the first place :P
Still, I doubt that many buyers have contacted their lawyers - and ranting about their "rights" on the internet will not really help them to get any keys.
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Don't know if anyone pointed this out already (mainly because it's getting late and I'm tired), but your point 4 is flawed: The quoted text just states that if you purchased something at 10€, and the price is later rised to 15€, you don't pay more (because you've already paid/your order has been processed). This is basically just stating that if you buy something on a sale, you'll get it at the sale price (and also prevents sudden chances in pricing while you are paying, leading to even worse publicity :P).
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You can also add to that list that some people have no idea what is going to happen with their purchase. I bought the bundle, was able to get 3 of the keys before they ran out (Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion). I also gifted 4 of the games.
At this point I have received no communication about a refund or any communication on if I'll get my remaining keys and if the people I gifted will get their keys.
On top of that, people who have been able to activate their keys and got a refund for some reason have no idea what is going to happen with those already activated games and their Steam accounts. There was someone on GameFAQs who said they were able to activate 10/11 games and got a refund. What's going to happen with that person? Do they get free games, or is Gamersgate going to actually contact Steam and deactivate the keys which may well mess up that person's account?
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Poor old gamersgate. I have played some great games such as Tiny and big, some interesting stuff like the gothic series, and also some gems like ascension to the throne. I hope gamersgate stay in business. Their rewards schemes like the blue coins are awesome.
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No, Actually they tagged it 100% discount for few minute.
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You forgot one. Some people are just mad at gamersgate :D
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While I didn't take advantage of the deal (I own everything in the bundle already), I still agree with what is posted here. However one thing got me curious from the list...
"Money was spent on extra download quota to download it all"
Thought download quotas had been a thing of the past for a long time now, and if not I feel sorry for people forced to abide by that.
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I have a 250GB/mo limit on my cable internet.
Without knowing that fact, I went over on my first month of service, adding a 'strike' to my account. Three strikes and they cut off my internet. Metered internet (and cellphone usage for that matter), especially when they advertise as "Unlimited", is still alive and well and will be until the greedy politicians who take money from greedier corporations grow some balls and put a stop to the false advertising.
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I was assuming that "I don't want to deal with those impounding fucks who take money from children's charities." referred to Paypal taking money from the Humble Bundle payments... just like credit card companies do.
Paypal is garbage no doubt, more so since being bought out by eBay, but your reason isn't really one that can stand up, since it's a standard practice to take a cut of the money being transferred.
If I'm wrong and you meant that PayPal was doing something else doucheworthy, can you please elaborate?
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I agree with point 1.
Points 2-8 are childish crying, though. They've issued a statement as to why the Bethesda pack was up for nine hours. A lot of companies suffer from pricing mistakes (including Steam). Pricing mistakes do not have to be honored (has legal precedence in the US and EU) (although GG have been great in the past about honoring their price mistakes). You're assuming that people were so stupid as to count their chickens before they'd hatched - if I buy a Steam game, I've got it when it's in my Steam library, and not before. It's been two working days since the refund process began - am I crazy to think that it could take as many as five working days? And Gamersgate's communication says that they'll have an update this week (i.e. Dec 31st - Jan 4th) - it's not Jan 4th where I am. Where are you?
Gamersgate are just a resource for buying games. They're only a business. Why are people actually getting angry? Give them the five working days, and then stop using them after you've got your refund if you're not content with their service.
I'm still amazed how much negative attention Gamersgate have received for giving out thousands of Steam keys at bargain-basement prices in a week but not being able to honor ALL of them, compared to, say, GMG's fraud issues, games being revoked from Steam, no keys/no refunds, lies about their coupons... I guess if you spread it over a year like GreenManGaming, people don't care. :) (To be fair, I still use GMG too, but I go in expecting failure)
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"A lot of companies suffer from pricing mistakes (including Steam)."
No one is denying that... however having SIX MAJOR pricing issues in a week (that's roughly ONE ERROR EVERY DAY) is extremely unlikely.
To write points 2~8 off as "childish crying" shows your complete lack of comprehension, especially in points 4 and 7. Are you honestly trying to say that a company cancelling your order AND THEN NOT REFUNDING YOUR MONEY, essentially theft, is "childish crying"?
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Ah, Gamersgate aren't giving refunds? Funny. I thought that they were. I've got the first of my refunds from them already.
I'm from Earth, where processing refunds can take a few days. A few WORKING days, usually. I've had partially-completed orders cancelled before (from other companies), and had my refund issued within a few days.
If you believe Gamersgate are not going to give you the refund, and that they have stolen your money, then perhaps you should call the police? Or do the police not get involved in "theft" where you are from?
The most hilarious posts I have read on this subject have involved class-action lawsuits. :D Go on. Please. Suggest suing them.
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Compilation of reasons of why people are mad.
By kesutu (slighty edited for better wording)
In no particular order:
1 - They heavily implied that all purchases of the Bethesda bundle would be honored. If they had immediately came out and said "Sorry guys, that was a pricing error, apologies", then there would be a lot less backlash. However, they issued these two twitter statements:
https://twitter.com/GamersGate/status/282458640152141824
"The Bethesda bundle is now unavailable and we will not get new serials until middle of January next year."
https://twitter.com/GamersGate/status/282458751448002560
"if you want a refund for your Bethesda bundle purchase due to the lack of serials please contact our support. Sorry for this"
These tweets heavily implied that Bethesda bundle purchases will be honored.
2 - The pricing error for the Bethesda Bundle was up for 9 hours. Many people who initially thought it was merely a pricing error eventually were convinced that it was in fact just a Christmas miracle. The logic was that if it was a pricing error the site would have either closed or fix the issue much sooner.
For anyone that argues that the price was clearly unreasonable, here is a bundle from Amazon that has a retail value of $250 and is being sold for $30 ($25 with 2K coupon, and $20 if you include the $5 promotional credit you get for purchasing.) It's not far-fetched for one to think GamersGate was actually selling at that price.
3 - A total of 7+ (many more, including less prominent ones) pricing errors have been recorded in the past week.
This honestly seems like some sort of terrible marketing ploy. Why else would there be so many pricing errors spread out over the course of a week?
4 - They essentially break their own rules: http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/info/terms-of-use
"Prices GamersGate reserves the right to change the price and availability of any products at any time without notice; provided, however, such price change will not affect your purchase price for orders that GamersGate has already received from you and processed."
5 - It is illegal to force refunds after the completed purchase of a product (differs in countries).
6 - Things that could have happened after someone thought they'd bought the games:
This negatively impacts the consumer in a significant manner.
(Credit to yay_icade_support from Reddit)
7 - Some people have no received refunds despite having their orders cancelled.
8 - Lack of communication. The notices GamersGate has posted on their site and Facebook page lacks any sort of useful information. Consumers are essentially left in the dark. (credit to ladynadiad)
9 - They continue to sell games for which they have no stock (specifically Borderlands 2 and Bethesda games) and do not state so on the game page. (credit to Kiina)
I'm sure there are many other reasons, but these are just a few reasons why people are mad. I personally am not angry they refunded my purchase, I'm angry that they implied they would honor them, then went back on their word. These actions are not acceptable by any company. Even if this was not a marketing ploy to garner more attention to the site, do you really want to give your money to a bunch of amateurs who manage to repeatedly screw up something so basic? Next thing you know, they actually keep their accounts and passwords on an unencrypted .txt file and manage to lose it. There are many places where you can buy cheap games; GamersGate is not one of them.
TL;DR: The majority of people are upset at how GamersGate is handling the situation.
Also. IGN 15% off. Forever mad.
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