Imagine it like a flow chart:
Do you believe in God(s)?
If yes: then there is no reason to suicide (life is precious, blablabla, it's wrong, hope, etc...)
If not: then why ? If you think there is nothing, then when you die there will be "Nothing". Imho even the worst shit is definitely better than "Nothing".
No one should prefer Nothing, how can it be good ? it's not like you are going to get some rest, nope, you will get Nothing, you will simply stop existing, that's terrifying, at least for me.
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Well, I don't really remember when was the last time I felt rested. Probably only in WoW...
Nothing sounds to me like too good to be true ^^
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And it is.
But it's not as hard to find in real life, as we believe during those periods of struggle. :)
PS: If your friend doesn't have a pet, get a pet. Having someone willing to be dedicatedly loving and honest to you, with no social obligations or fears involved, can often break despair better than anything else in the entire world.
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She has had a pet turtle for years and it seems like it has helped her a lot ^^
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Typically, more active animals prone to being physically companionable tend to be best, since they basically 'startle' you with active companionship, so an extra pet may help.
That being said, turtles are totally cool, a lot of people underestimate how great companions they can be. :)
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Supporting one another may be a good reason for both. When you really don't have strictly personal reasons, you should think about the people who loves you and realize that feeling good means also make their life better. Do something together, something she likes doing or that she liked to do as a child. Reduce online messages and increase the time you spend together physically.
Death means expenses for funerals (yes, the first point), no ice cream, no pizza, no video games, no music, no drinking, no dreams, nothing. Come on!
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Why would there be an expense for a funeral? o.O
That's an unobligated self-gratification for the living, if they want to pay for it, it's on them, not the person who suicided. :P
You can make a lot of rationales for living, but making the suicidal person responsible for someone else's actions, isn't a good one. :X
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Uhhhhhhh. What the heck are you talking about?
There are no mandatory expenditures for funerals, the whole structure in place is a capitalistic social affair that trumps the matter up to exploit money from survivors, perpetuated by the survivors' need for ceremony to more easily process the death.
You are more than capable of refusing to manage the body yourself- there are no legal obligations whatsoever to dealing with another person's body, regardless of their relationship to you*, and the only time anyone can legally push the matter is if you inherit the individuals estate [*or are a spouse, and thus already legally share in it], in which case the fees can be charged as a debt against the estate prior to it being passed to you.
However, even in that case, a simple cremation without ceremony or purchase of an urn, will cost you basically nothing.
There's no obligation whatsoever for things like wakes and special containers and burial and whatnot, unless it's part of the individual's will, and thus a condition of being able to inherit their estate [though certain states allow you to override funeral conditions in wills].
In other words, noone is responsible for the individual's body, except those that have legally chosen to take on that responsibility, as the body is solely the property of the individual involved.
The same is true for any debt: In the states, only a spouse is ever liable for taking on someone else's debts without choosing to do so.
If noone accepts the body, the state in question pays for a simple cremation or pauper's burial.
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US laws are not world laws ;P
For example in US you can use a cardboard box for the cremation, in many EU countries not: you need a coffin. Maybe in some countries around the world plastic bags are fine too.
Beyond the legal quibbles, it's difficult to think that a parent refuse to take care of his daughter/son's burial, even when relations are disastrous.
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US laws are not world laws ;P
That's a massive duh, especially given as I'm German-born myself, but in this case, the laws are so profoundly intuitive, I certainly did make an assumption of common transference.
How do you determine who is obligated to take on someone else's debt, even if they couldn't stand them? Nearest-kin familial debt inheritance is pretty universally considered an outdated mindset, nevermind every example of it I'm aware of having stopped at a completely arbitrary 2 degrees of separation.
Certainly, in the case of a parent to a child, a debt can be assumed, given that they were directly responsible for the creation of the individual in the first place, but debt inheritance was just an old loan-sharking tactic to strong-arm debtors, and it, as well as upward or outward debt transference to any non-parent, is completely incomprehensible when viewing individuals as unique entities responsible for their own actions, and noone else's.
Even the parent thing is slim as heck, especially when you've got an estranged, adult, divorced child that had died- would the ex-spouse have more obligation, or the parents?
It's all completely arbitrary, and in defiance of the common expectation of legal autonomy of self.
it's difficult to think that a parent refuse to take care of his daughter/son's burial, even when relations are disastrous.
And I personally find it absurd to think that someone would want a funeral, so as I was trying to indicate from the start, your premises are entirely based off the subjective preferences of the individuals involved.
You're caught up in social expectations that a funeral is a desirable social act of recognition for the departed individual, while my own expectations are that it is a strictly commercial, socially obligated, and ritualistic reinterpretation of the correct grieving process.
The question is if you WANT there to be a ritualistic value to the affair, or if you find the social expression comforting, or if you just oblige current social conventions without thought. If any of those are true, funerals make sense to you.
And even all this is predicated on the belief that the individual's spirit or soul is in some way tied to their dead body, which is only true for certain belief systems.
To anyone who doesn't share these expectations, funerals rather firmly do not make sense. :P
As silly as our respective approaches may sound to one another, the matter is a deeply personal one, and there's certainly no reason we shouldn't respect each other's outlooks toward such matters.
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I have talked about US laws because you used a link with US laws ;)
In summary, intuitive manner, the immediate family are always liable, unless they are in dispute and waive any right on the possible inheritance.
For the social part, I think just like you, but we're not talking about you and me. It's a general topic in which we know nothing about the subject. In this case it seems natural to use social conventions. If you think your family will want a classic funeral for you, you can't say: "Who cares?"; because in fact you damage them emotionally and economically. This is the gist ;)
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Anyone being in debt for something they didn't agree to at any point, is deeply counter-intuitive. That's why we have parental co-signing, to create clauses for that sort of interaction where liability is necessary for the contract.
And 1: I do know about the topic and 2: The US's generous freedom of religion actually covers me quite well on not having to abide by death rites that conflict with my own beliefs :P
3: We're not talking about the dead person telling people to fuck off and leave their body alone, as they kill themselves. That's not even remotely related to the topic. [And bodily autonomy protects that individual in most such cases, so their wishes toward their body- which SHOULD be respected over those of others, as best as possible- are honored regardless]. (And how the heck does it damage anyone economically? The only way that happens is if someone actually does the typical silly, vastly overpriced, commercialized funeral process. :P)
The topic is the parents, in accordance to their beliefs, no longer considering the corpse part of their child, any more than you'd consider your own dead skin cells [of which absurd amounts are in your house, right now] part of your body.
As such, they have no obligation to it, nor need to do anything with it, or so forth.
Now, one argument you could pull, is that much like a parent having to pay damages if their minor child craps on someone's property, is that the parents are still liable for this biological waste, if the deceased child is a minor.
But that's a very specific instance that requires the child to be a minor, and the next of kin to be their parents.
Why would parents have to pay for it past that, if they don't for any other mishap their child enacts? And moreso, for non-parents, would anyone who never had legal authority over the dead person, have to take up that debt?
And why is any of this true at all for someone who is estranged, when it's not true for somone who was put up for adoption as a child? Does a later separation have more value than an earlier one for some reason?
Anyway, a lot of poor people in the states leave their kin unclaimed so they don't have to pay the funeral costs, so it's a reasonably common thing from that perspective as well.
I mean, it's a tragedy from their side, to not be able to grieve as they wish.. though the concept of how they approach grieving is so foreign to me that I have difficulty attributing that any more merit than I would someone not being able to through an extravagant party, or buy themselves an extra large cake, or their fifteenth- or fiftieth- pair of shoes.
To me it's a gluttonous form of self-spending that has no purpose whatsoever.
And truthfully, from a wholly distanced viewpoint, it does not.
It only obtains value when one: Requires that sort of steady, socially predictable structure to grieve easily; is too caught in social obligations and expectations to consider otherwise; or believes in the value of the rites, rituals, and forms involved, and finds reassurance in them.
Of course, my beliefs are predictable within those who believe similarly, we have our own expectations to consider, and our beliefs contradict the value of such rites.
So, while there's no reason to dismiss the value of such rites to those that desire them, the declining of such is equally meritable, even within the same framework.
And regardless of the merits involved, there's no arguing that how funeral homes run things, at least here in the states, is a deeply shameful and exploitative affair.
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The commercial aspect of funerals in the US is something that I wasn't aware of until I watched the (excellent) TV show Six Feet Under. Where I live (Israel) there's very little of that in relation to the ceremony, but tombstones are still a big thing. I personally find the whole concept ridicules, turning so much of the world's limited area into ground that is only used for "memorial" of those long dead and forgotten. Graveyards constantly expand and consume land suitable for living, and it's amazing that most of humanity don't have any issue with this. I would personally prefer if my body was just fed to the fish or planted in the ground to feed earthworm. Feeding the living provides much better closure from my point of view, but it's probably not something that my next of kin will be able to execute, even if I clearly stated it in my yet unwritten will.
With that said, I haven't had to take decisions being a next of kin (yet), and I don't know how I'll handle it given the expectations of the deceased (whoever it will be), and those of my family members and society at large. May I ask if you had to deal with this already?
BTW, I'd like to add that I find your posts in this thread (and others) fascinating, and that those who are skipping them because they're a bit long are missing out. Good stuff.
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Life is a mixed bag. There are so many bad and depressing things about it, but there are also a lot of good and fun things. Personally I found that the best way to live the life is to stop stressing over the bad and just focus on doing things you enjoy and have fun. Ever since I started thinking like that I haven't really even thought about suicide. As long as there are things in life that I enjoy I can tolerate all the bad shit that happens.
Now what those good things are really depends on the person. Games, sex, anime, listening to music, those are just some of the things that keep me from even considering suicide since I enjoy them so much.
She's young and it sucks she had to live through hell with her parents. But killing herself or just not doing anything with her life only hurts her, not those monsters that abused her. Anyway abuse is abuse, it's horrible but it's not something that should make you give up on life. She survived it and she should move on with her life. Obviously the first thing she should do if she already didn't is get away from them. Get a job and find a small apartment to live in, or move over to a friend.
Then she should start opening up to the world and eventually she'll find something she enjoys and over time her depression will start to go away.
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I'll start with saying that I've never found myself in a similar situation so I don't really know what to say to help.
I would, however, like go give my opinion on the matter.
I personally think seeking help from a doctor, a psychologist, or someone who is knowledgeable about this kind situation, so it could be even visiting a group similar to AA but for this kind of situation, just to share your burden and try to receive some help would be worth a try. Even if you think it cannot help, I would still suggest it, because it may actually help and trying, at least for me, is still better than waiting for things to get resolved on their own.
As someone said you could introduce him to a religion. I'm and atheist, so I don't really get what people find as a reason to life or happiness from religions. Still even if I don't believe or like them, I would still prefer being able to be with a friend.
In either of this cases I think you should still be with your friend. First because I don't know how much time a specialist or a group will be with your friend, if it's a specialist maybe 2 / 3 hours a week, and if it's a group, maybe the same or maybe something more, so not much time. (Please take into consideration that those are speculated, not what would really happen. ) And you could see how is it going while your friend is not attending any meeting sessions, because you would probably spend more time with him anyway, and let's be clear, from my point of view you may not be able to see his condition from a medical standpoint, but you would probably know than a random doctor and still be able to help him. In regard of the second case, I hope this won't be offensive from everyone, I think you should stay close to him for the same reason as before, and to help him not lose sight of reality and because it's true that some religious people will really like to help you, but other that probably only think to be religious would try to take advantage of his situation. I would like to explain my last two statements better but I don't really know how to, since I'm not a native speaker.
And a reason to being alive? Well I really think that having a reason given to you can only help you find you a reason you see suited for yourself, it may be actually the same reason in name, I mean laterally the same, but you reached that reason trough your own reasoning.
As for myself... what keep me going is what you could call a hobby... Since I was a child I've always liked to know new things, and I actually mean in a scientific way, like be knowledgeable in general, but mostly about scientific stuff. I've always liked playing video games and computers, and even nowadays when I'm pretty down playing a random game usually cheer me up. Also I'm currently following my passion about computer science since I'm actually studying to be a programmer, and finding out new things about what I like is really pleasant for me. Even if I don't always understand right away everything just because I found it out something new I'm happy. So if your friend has something that he likes I would advice him to give a try about following it, be it studying it or working in something related. If he doesn't know as now, I would suggest to try things out, even randomly, from sports to trying to learn maths or science or literature, so he may, and I hope he will, find something that interesting enough for him to give him something to hang on to keep on.
I hope that your friend will get better and find an enjoyable life.
P.s. I didn't really have any intention of offending anyone, if you really think that something I said is really outrageous let me know. I'm open for discussion. Also sorry for the wall-text.
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I don't think there are really people here who would find this offensive, but I like walls of text ^^
Thank you for your thoughts :)
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Well as i see it now, you don´t really need a reason, you just try to find a way to enjoy, something that make you feel peaceful, happy or useful (helpful. I don´t know what word suits better here, sfbe). And then if you or your friend still need a reason in time you will see one just like it pop up in your mind. I have been in a deep depression i kow that mix of bad feelings, and i can tell you that i don´t see a real reason, but for sure, i want to see what´s going to happen tomorrow.
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what else does he have better to do?
I actually don't have a reason as well. I just go with the flow.
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There is no reason for living apart from a biological imperative (that put you here in the first place).
It's up to everyone to find their own reasons to continue.
If you can't find any that's perfectly valid to me.
The only problem I see with the whole thing is those you leave behind.
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Exactly, to me it seems like life is just a big corporation. You're alive, so you're supposed to be alive, death sucks, don't die.
There really isn't a reason to life, except the ones we make ourselves.
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I have struggled with this for my whole life. For me, the most useful revelation was not to focus on "what's the point of living?" but rather "what's the point of dying?". Really find the root cause of what's causing you to be depressed, or what's causing your pain, and try to deal with it rather than accept it as inevitable. Being happy is like a muscle, if you don't exercise it it will atrophy. If you pretend to be happy for long enough you'll eventually feel it for real. Smile at people, engage strangers in conversation. Take a walk in the park. Go to a garden or zoo, observe nature; plants and animals (including humans! including you!) are pretty fucking amazing when you think about it.
But, really, most of all is just try to stop thinking about it so much, find a way to keep busy with other things. Be aware of your own thoughts and when you start going down the dark path of depressing thoughts, tell yourself "NO!" or "STOP!" or whatever in your own language. :) Soon you will become aware of which environmental factors trigger this depressive thought process. For me it is the worst when I'm tired, stressed out, and in bed alone with my thoughts. So I can try to be more well-rested, to address whatever is causing stress in my life, etc. and change my thoughts to other subjects if I start to obsess over the negative.
Good luck to your friend. They are not alone!
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My family is what keeps me going. They're my one constant thing in life that makes me happy and supports me, if it wasn't for them I don't see how I could keep going. I think have loved ones who are there to listen/be there for you is so important, whether it's a best friend, family, bf/gf..whoever.
Depression is an illness. At my lowest point I wasn't living, I was existing, and for 3-4 months I constantly thought of suicide. My thoughts were consumed by them, to the point where I didn't even realise how bad off I was. It just became the "normal", I thought about dying constantly but I kept telling myself I wouldn't do it bc I couldn't be selfish and do that to my family. I slept ~18 hours a day and the rest was closed off in my room, not wanting to talk to anyone, in too much pain mentally and physically. It wasn't until my mom said to me she was afraid that she would come home one day to find me dead that clicked that I was sick, that it wasn't okay to feel like this everyday. When I'm at my lowest days just go by, what feels like a few days and can easily be a week or 2. Which made it so helpful when I had someone there to help me have a more "regular" life, to make appointments or remind me, to have notes about what I should do for the day (a couple little things...too much and I'd be overwhelmed).
I saw a therapist, it took 3 before I found the right one for me (that's common...if a therapist doesn't help the first time or makes you uncomfortable, find a new one). My family helped set up the appointments and take me, I needed the extra push. But overall between therapy, meditation, and pain medication/physical therapy (to lessen my physical pain...part of the reason I was so depressed was I was basically bedbound/in a wheelchair bc of a medical condition for 7 years). Thankfully after physical therapy and eating healthier, my overall physical and mental health improved a little bit. Anti-depressants made things worse for me bc of side effects, but I know a lot of people improve by taking them as well.
After my dad commit suicide I saw how broken my family was (and still is) and I knew that I couldn't do that to them. I still have depression, but it comes in spurts. When I see myself going downhill I do as much as I can to improve my health/mood, and tell my family that I'm really down...to not take it personally but to also be there for me. I try to find joy in the little things and not let my depression consume me, because once it does it's very difficult to get out of it. I really hope your friend is able to get help, because while life can definitely suck I can honestly say that I am happy to be alive (even with my medical condition being as bad as it is/if not worsening). It can and does get better, if you're thinking about suicide you can't get any lower, nothing can be as bad as the consuming darkness that you're experiencing.
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I had to give this some thought before answering, because I often feel it isn't worth it,
and when the depression sets in (as it has recently), I completely withdraw from most everyone around me.
Having said that, and realizing that I usually have to deal with those "black fits", myself -- what keeps me from going over the edge again?
Sometimes you just have to let it all out. Sometimes simply sharing what you're going through with others can work wonders. Sometimes just screaming into the night, or having a good cry can make you feel better. The important thing to remember, no matter how you deal with it, is that there are others like you and there are people out there who really do want to help.
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Hey guys...
Since apparently nobody likes my puzzles, I thought I'd make it easier this time. Here is a step-by-step guide to get to the giveaways
Step 1: Pass test: SGtools
Step 2: ???
Step 3: PROFIT
Now that I have none of your attention, I've got a real puzzle for you.
I hope it's not a bannable offense. I was hoping one of you could give me a good reason to live.
My good friend sees no point in life and I don't have any valid arguments (because I don't see either)
Besides the classical ones like it's selfish/it's illegal/god said so/life is great, so yeah. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
TL;DR: Vote for Bear instead of Trump at the God-Emperor "election"
Edit: Fuck me, I didn't realize SG uses a calendar with Sunday as the first day of the week (first time I noticed) and I wanted the giveaways to end on Sunday not Saturday :D
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