Do you want to keep, change, remove, or replace the Contribution system?
I voted 'remove', but I no longer care that much, simply because I came to accept that SG isn't a place for charitable giving, but rather a kind of game where people "trade" games in a semi-random fashion. A CV system is in line with that.
The only giveaway criterion that would interest me is "not having won a lot", which would allow me to make giveaways that feel somewhat charitable.
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+1 it would be great if we could make charitable giveaways. Instead it is always the peeps with dozens of wins already.
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Not always but certain factors favor certain people.
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It isn't easy to come up with a such criterion as there are many opinions what is lot and what is not. Strict "number of wins < X" requirement could be feasible but even it has multiple cons. Direct control of entries with e.g. whitelisting or group invites allows most flexibility but the drawback is the required manpower and limited visibility. I see no easy solution here.
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I think that even a simple "number of wins < X" criterion will be good, and not any more flawed than for example the CV system is. Any flaws that exist will be overshadowed by the benefits.
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Although I won't benefit from this at all since I have won a lot already, I really do believe that this idea is one of the most fair and simple ones in this thread. A giveaway criterion for "number of wins < x" makes perfect sense.
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SGv0 <3
It would be very nice if new users here can be amazed it is a real site, that people could be this generous, that something like this could actually exist, same as it happened to us, old users of the site. What will they think now? I suspect that a lot of them tend to think this is a site totally based on the contributor giveaway system, people are creating giveaways to increase their level, no "thank you" is needed when you win a giveaway as the creators have already got their reward.
Quite sure cg stated somewhere contributor giveaways were intended as an additional reward, not the reward of the site. People can be active and successful member of the community even without creating any giveaways, and they don't deserve to be instantly tagged as "leecher" and permanently blacklisted by unaware users who are focusing on "CV".
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Yes, I think that us old timers have a different perspective because we remember this site being more friendly. But it could be just that the site was new and small. I doubt that dropping CV/blacklist/whitelist would return the site to what it was. Still, I do think that CV sets a certain negative tone to the site.
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No doubt change would have occurred from the increase in users alone, but the change that occurred when we transitioned from pre-CV to CV was day and night.
I still advocate the removal of the system but I realize that it's not an easy thing to do even if it were to happen. There would be lots of backlash and to some extent enough damage has already been done that reverting to a non-CV system wouldn't be the same as never having a CV system in the first place. At the same time, I am not happy and have not been happy with the site as it is
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I agree, CV really made things worse. I think that the level system did improve things, although it might just have been that people became a lot more focused on the blacklist/whitelist system that was added at the same time.
In any case, ever since CV was added the focus stopped being on charity and moved to focus on "you give more, you get more", which is pretty much the opposite. That's so ingrained in SG thinking now that I think it will be next to impossible to go back.
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Maybe we are just turning into grouchy grandparents.
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I think that 'v2' of SG works better than 'v1', but since I've not been around when there was no CV at all I can't really comment on how no CV would work. Personally I wouldn't mind if the CV system would be removed, but not in favour of a reputation system (that would be abused a lot for sure).
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The system seems pretty good for what it is , yeah it may not be perfect ... but its still okay.
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Those who vote for keeping the system as is should consider this: the bundle list is growing, and it's growing fast. Games are bundled daily, and not only because they are being sold as part of Humble bundles, but because users from regions with lower pricing purchase them at a fraction of their US price. Couple this with volatile currencies in those regions, and we're facing a very real situation when half of Steam store becomes bundled during the Winter sale, which essentially breaks the whole system for everyone.
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Frankly, sometimes I feel like that the bundle list already surpassed 50% of available Steam titles…
I mean there are 4224 items on it now, and Steam has what, 7-10 thousand-ish items in total.
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Yes, but the bundle list is part of the current state of affairs. Those who choose to keep the contributor levels system, choose to keep the bundle list, as well.
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While I see your side of wanting to remove it, frankly, I can get behind the idea of bundle list, even though I deal only with bundle games here.
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But if every giveaway is for a "bundled" game, the system no longer works as intended. We might as well abandon the bundle list altogether and let CV devalue rapidly by allowing contriboosting. And devalued CV means there will be no point in contributor giveaways in the first place.
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Anything that devalues CV, I can support. Anything that makes sure to devalue CV consistently, over time, I can get behind even more.
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Well, then you must love the current system, and you'll love it even more :)
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The current? No, because already acquired CV only drops when the publishers themselves lower the price of the game. It isn't how CV works that devalues itself, but an external event completely unaffected by CV itself. I think almost anything would be better than the current one.
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I don't feel that's a huge problem. The bundled list is meant to encourage people to gift games which weren't bundled, and it still achieves that, regardless of how many bundled games there are. The fact that half the Steam store is bundled is more a statement about the value of games these days than it is about SG.
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And yet you should see the amount of tickets we get with the bundle list complaints. Well, you can get the idea by reading the forums, too.
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I guess that could be alleviated by putting an expiration date on the bundle list, for example unbundle a game if it hasn't been bundled for a year. Sure people could hoard, but I think that those who missed the bundle would actually enjoy that there's a sudden deluge of a desirable game.
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People will definitely hoard. And this would just mean that the majority of users won't give away a game until it's unbundled. So there would be no point in bundling the game in the first place.
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I agree that people will hoard, I'm not sure the majority will, but even if that would be the case, it would still make game available at a point of time when they are more expensive to get. The bundle list is after all just a way to encourage more valuable giveaways, and a game which hasn't been bundled for a while will have higher market value.
One reason I think it won't be a huge problem is because most games do get re-bundled. Those which don't are typically the more desired ones, and as I said, I don't think it's a huge problem if some people hoarded them.
The main downside I see is that it could be more work to manage the bundle database, since every bundle level discount will have to be noted.
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The absolute majority will hoard bundle keys. That's just how humans work. You buy a bundle for $1, you know that you will get $1 CV for this key today and $20 CV in 6 months. You buy 5 bundles, and that is suddenly a $100 investment "into the future" for $5 spent. Taking into account the fact that various bundles release almost daily these weeks, and we have a problem with CV simply losing its value rapidly.
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I answered above given the assumption that what you say is true. As I said, CV will continue to mean giving away higher value games. It's just that the value of games will have a somewhat different definition: instead of just "games which haven't been bundled" it will be "games which haven't been bundled for a while".
I think you're answering based on the assumption that CV reflects money spent on games, but that never was the case. CV is simply a means to encourage giving more and the bundle list is a means to encourage giving a certain type of games. Changing what type of games you encourage isn't game breaking.
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And yet you should see the amount of tickets we get
It would be a good idea to show those numbers from time to time. Even not precise numbers and wide categories would do. Right now regular user such as I am has no idea what's going on and where problems are. It's next to impossible to come up with improvement proposals that would work without that knowledge
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Since there is no separate "CV problems" ticket category, it's difficult to track them all, as each ticket in "Other" has its own title, and some of them are in the wrong category altogether. When a certain popular game is added to the bundle list due to pricing exploits, I can guess that we get 20-40 tickets per game with complaints. Plus more tickets with CV-related complaints in general.
But the amount of CV-related tickets is our problem to solve and should not be important here. What's important is that the current system is flawed and there is a risk it's going to be exploited even more in the future.
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Tbh I've had no idea that there is so much complains going through tickets. It is seen on the forum but not in such quantities, so it's easy to dismiss as 'not a real problem' when it clearly show that there is one. I suppose that in there are different categories too that are not visible in public but problem still exist.
I don't argue that system is broken (but mostly from a different POV). But those numbers expose that there is a problem. Also it's not only support that should deal with it. If it is a community( and I think it is), then it's also our problem and we (as a whole) should deal with it in ways that are available to each of us, even if it's only giving ideas.
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Heh, at least those tickets are pretty easy to answer :P
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This seems to indicate not a problem with the system, but with some of the people using it, IMO.
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Sure, and I'm not saying that it should be removed/replaced based on the amount of support tickets resulting from it, that would be silly. There are bigger problems caused by those who abuse the system and by the system itself.
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It seems sensible that if someone contributes a non bundle game one day and that same game gets bundled a few days later then it doesn't make much sense for that somebody to lose CV, and I am unsure why this happens..
So what I am saying is is that if we could somehow secure the CV value for games pre-bundle then there is no longer any problem with the system in that regard.
If I am missing something here I would appreciated being filled in with any available details about the problem, the problem seems a little vague to me to be honest, It would be nice to at least try to think about a solution to a problem but when I am unsure of the problem in its entirety then it is kind of hard to visualise a solution. I know you mention about the misuse of purchases made in countries that offer games at a cheaper price but as for non bundle games eventually becoming bundled I would presume that is easy enough to find a solution to.
I voted to keep the CV system simply because I haven't seen a good enough reason to remove it completely or replace it with something similar but if it makes for less problems and less misuse then I would definitely support it. Is it really that much of a problem.
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Giveaways created before the game was bundled give full value, they don't lose CV (unless their RRP drops in store)
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Ah okay that explains a lot, I actually thought that games I give away may have become bundled or free causing the drop.
Then the way that CV levels are adjusted need to be adjusted.
Why would this system need to correspond to a games source value at any given time. I understand it would need to use the Steam store to get an accurate source of information to calculate the CV for a created giveaway but cant it just use the Steam store to get the information it needs to calculate the CV earned, add the CV earned to a users CV level once the gift is marked as received and then do us a favour and disappear. Instead of pointlessly deducting earned CV points : )
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the problem is, the Steam API to get the store price is foobar.
example: if you're giving away a game that's also sold in a package, you might end up with either the correct price, no price at all or the package's price.
that's why the store price is synced periodically (so even if the currently retrieved price information is wrog, we're bound to get the correct price during one of the next syncs), except for games that have been removed from the store or other items (e.g. bundles) that have been added manually to the SG database.
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Now I am getting a clearer picture and now I understand a little better the problem with all the work of having to list so many games to the bundle list.
So in that case unless a firm and accurate value can be established we are pretty much fucked.
Thanks for helping me understand more thoroughly : )
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why not make it. like, only user from RU can make RU reglock GA's. so its depend where yr from.
valve make lower price for some regions have reasons.
1$ here =/= 1$ there.
i think that make more wisely
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Nooo...there's 3 more levels left.
First i'm going to abuse the system to reach level 10, then im going to screenshot, print it and frame it on the wall. Only then can it be fixed,replaced or removed.
EDIT: why do we have a level system at all, just put a barrier for anyone lvl 0.
Less giveaways but also less users
I didn't join to deny games to people who dont create, but you know, they are the majority
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Meh, as a casual giver, i became to dislike CV level giveaways cause levels are easily grinded, meanwhile simply giving away a decent game from time to time doesn't get you far in terms of receiving something decent back for a long time. Granted that if you're only here for giving and not receiving back, you won't be bothered by that.
Groups/Whitelist seems like the way to go, as you have more control of giving into good hands. I decided to do those exclusive from now on. Greedy people just ruin the whole giveaway feel imo.
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Agree but you should not consider more gifting=more winning
Thousands of entries in single game
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Of course, more gifting doesn't guarantee more winning, but it does guarantee a chance at higher valued games, meaning either unbundled or higher tier games.
I'm the kind of person that only enters a GA if i'd actually play the game, so of course my win rate is still 0 since my level isn't that high yet and i doubt i'm in anyone's whitelist. So in this case, more giving does mean more winning :)
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Just dropped by to test if I can feature the poll on the front page, don't mind me.
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You say not to mind you ... I feel like you're doing something wrong and sneaky. watches Lina like a hawk
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In the interest of an impartial discussion, is it fair for staff/support to throw their weight behind certain views? Honest question.
I knew several of the current staff while they were still normal users, so I do believe they can maintain that perspective. But for others looking in, I can also understand an opinion being swayed by a title.
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I don't think Staff have that sort of influence. Just look at how quickly and uniformly wbarton's idea of a rep-based system was destroyed.
In any case, I think their perspectives are helpful since they see things from a different perspective. Adds to the discussion.
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there's probably some people that will blindly follow what anyone from support says.
i'm interested in their opinion since they obviously know more than the normal user, at least based on tickets and stats hidden to us.
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It really seems like support is mixed of opinion on this one, I think it helps promote a healthy discussion. I would like them to share more of the data they are referencing though but that's just me.
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These threads are pure, pointless drama. Always bitching and moaning but offering ZERO solutions.
cg has made it clear that scrapping the system altogether is not going to happen. Also, in every single poll that has been posted on this subject over the last three years, the majority of all users consistently want to keep a CV/CL system in place.
How about some productive, concrete suggestions rather than just saying the system is bad and needs to be changed?
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So far I think at least five alternative systems were sketched. Also, the ones who want to keep it are under 50% now, and dropping. Just saying. :)
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The poll can also be interpreted to say that only 16% of members are in favor of wholesale changes. No one is against modifications (read: improvements) to the core. Not a single person has said that the system is perfect -- just that no one has proposed anything better.
In any case, my point was more that an opening post that builds on past discussion and offers tangible ideas and solutions for community analysis adds far more value to the years-spanning dialogue than another generic "I don't like it, people game the system, and I want to scrap it" post.
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Yeah, it's like an election: one can say they got 67% of the seats in the parliament on the votes, the others can say that 78% of the population doesn't want them anywhere near the seat of power. (Very real life example.)
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I'm sorry you feel that way chairmankao. I would like to say:
- I knew wbarton would be making a big post on some kind of alternate system before I posted my thread
- I don't remember cg ever saying the removal of CV was never going to happen, that being said when I say remove CV that IS a solution, just because it's not an alternate doesn't mean it's not a solution
- The last serious thread I saw about CV at large was in SGv2 beta, and before that a thread that is over 2 years old
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I'm not really interested in funding some asia-based crowd of card farmers that a completely CV-void site would serve perfectly. Things are quite good as they currently are. Tweaks are possible, but setting a rep-based or no-cv based system would be a huge step backwards...
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Why single out asia when the biggest gamers of the CV system is to the north-east of you? Or are singling out china's farming everything completely ignoring the other countries that also exist there.
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Well, I admit I went with the stereotype of videogame farmers from 10 years ago, but wherever they are currently located, I dislike them
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The biggest card farmers on Steam are from NA and EU…
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Please don't let facts get in the way of a good xenophobic diatribe.
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yes, i realize this particular grouping of msgs is 3 weeks old, but ;
not sure where you got those stats from, but that could possibly be true, re: NA and EU. no chance of being most profitable, unless they make exclusive use of VPN and CIS region prices
... but I don't see the relation, myself. if i'm in russia, why not just buy game X that drops high value cards for $2? why wait for giveaways?
someone in UK/EU/US (and in that order for most titles) are the ones that actually have to spend multiple days to make money back
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Card farming isn't a very profitable thing. Even the more expensive cards rarely go even to the 50 cent territory, but if we assume that games that are farmed (because they were cheap enough to warrant some profit from it) spawn at least 50 cards on sale on the market, that means those cards won't go over 15 cents. Heck, there are cards with a single offer on the market in the 30-40 cent range with no buyers.
A Russian is more likely to post a key on G2A as territory-locked than get money from cards. Don't forget: farmed games are usually not played games, so all card profit would have to cover the entire game price. And as the market stands, an average game makes about 30-70 cent profit at best. Not even Russia is that cheap.
Plus card farming needs many games to start with. And somewhere on an article that stated that over 50% (or was it 66%?) of the Steam games were never actually played, they also had some graph showing that the insane majority of owned Steam games are concentrated only at a small percentage of the users, all from Western 1st world countries. And they are the ones who farm.
Still, if the owner of IdleMaster has IP stats, I think he could tell us where do people download the farming utility from more.
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I guess first off I'll preface by saying that I'm one of these card farmers, it's something I decided to give a go at when they introduced gems & had the game auction last year, I spent some hours planning on which games to try to get based purely on card values.
... was lucky in that I happened to be online when they announced this gem auction and how gems were acquired, so I was able to grab thousands of backgrounds and emoticons for $0.03USD each (would have gotten much, much more with a lower value currency, too). Used those during auction to pick up some games like Supreme Ruler 1936, Fading Hearts, Deadstone, Moonbase Commander (was about 25 total, but those are four that I still make today...). 'Initial' funding to get started then was ~$40. Knowing what I know now, I could get started on $5 (the "minimum" deposit requirement to be able to trade/marketplace). Would buy Nekopara 0, then hopefully be able to make enough money from those cards to get Nekopara 1 before the sale ends. With just those two titles & making booster packs for them both daily, you'd probably average around 25-50 cents daily (range is high because of the 1% foil chance).... obviously if you started w/ something like $100, you could get going much quicker. I probably clear around $20-$30 on any day that I make boosters, though I skip many days now, since it takes so long -- re: when I make one, I have to make 'all' the profitable ones. I blame it on my OCD. =/ It usually takes me about 3-4 hours, with a good 90 minutes or so devoted to 'marketplace maintenance'. (having to relist things you're undercut on and what not) Though, again, it's something I could probably finish in 2-3 hrs if I skipped a lot of the games & would maybe drop the profit only 25% or so.
I agree that it's not a great money maker in terms of time spent, at least when considering my location. Also have to consider the difference between what I call 'steambucks' (wallet money) vs 'real' fiat. I'm able to 'convert' quite a bit via friends (RL, UO, EQ, etc) relaying info on games they want (so I can buy it & gift it, & they just pay me instead). Other ppl may have more or less luck w/ that, but depending on circumstances it could eat a decent chunk of that profit.... either way, it also eats more of your time.
One of those things that starts out as being 'fun' and makes you think you're getting all these games 'for free', then turns into a second job.
But you learn which games to get, which to avoid, etc. Obviously anime games are the main draw, but 'popular' anime games aren't so great. re: Final Fantasy. It has some great artwork on the backgrounds and such, but the cards aren't profitable vs cost of gems, just because there are so many players. Games like Nekopara do much better, as they essentially only appeal to the anime 'niche' players, where Final Fantasy has more universal appeal. These niche players are more likely to want to finish the badges, get the backgrounds, etc. I also keep an eye on any sci-fi type game with cards, since some of those have good backgrounds or emoticons that'll keep the value of cards up. The only game that really 'came out of nowhere' on me in the last 9 months or so was Franchise Hockey Manager. I've never much understood the appeal of that ice background over, say, one of the 75 cent backgrounds from Arclight.
There are two games that came out recently that have been massively profitable, those being Gun Wings and MajorMinor.
Gun Wing, was on my to buy list before even seeing the BGs or emoticons, based on developer/producer (same ppl behind Oblivious Garden and Notch). MajorMinor I noticed had some really neat artwork, and, uh, looked like it'd have major niche appeal to the 'furries'. They cost about $11 in total, and I made over $11 from them on day one. MajorMinor has 15 cards, so you get 8 for free. Most sold for either 59, 69, 79, 89, or $0.99usd after fees, but I did have one sell for $1.79. Since it's 15 card set, the booster pack only costs 400 gems to make, so half of one of those 59 cent cards more than covered that. That game made me around $10-$12 on day 1.
Gun Wing cost around $3 & you could insta-sell a card listed at, say, 0.69. I got $2.19 for a single card from that game, which I think may have been my highest ever for a non-foil. It's also likely to be highly profitable for months to come (even better than Nekopara). Only thing I can think of that could derail it is if it's bundled.
see: http://www.steamcardexchange.net/index.php?gamepage-appid-348240
Niche title that comes w/ it's own fanbase, but also has BGs that have their very own grp of collectors (all the "lolis"). I'm somewhat surprised Steam even allowed the 'Wind Fairy' BG, features an underage girl with not much on except for a bow tie, a fancy ribbon, and a 'big blue jewel'... in what I'd call a somewhat borderline pose ('suggestive'). Here in US, this stuff is fine. Something else I don't really want to dig into extensively, but, yeah, I don't know if some of these laws 'require' nudity, or if a 'suggestive' theme could be enough. Anyway, the other two rare backgrounds appeal to the same niche, but don't have issue that I see in the wind fairy BG (still got the lolis tho!). Would be amazed if any of those three rare BGs dropped below, say, an $8 average any time in the next several months.
See Notch:
http://www.steamcardexchange.net/index.php?gamepage-appid-325120
or Oblivious Garden:
http://www.steamcardexchange.net/index.php?gamepage-appid-323490
These are what keep the card values up, I know why 'Dyanna the Luna' is worth so much, but it's something I'd value at maybe $1 or $2, not $15. My favorites from those two titles, are the $2 'Crying Out In A Dream', the $0.40 'Silent Rebirth', and the $0.60 'Redemption and Renewal'.... or you could just go with some quality 5 cent background from Fermi's Path.
http://www.steamcardexchange.net/index.php?gamepage-appid-342650
laugh.
So, to sum it all up, I guess.... I agree with the guy's assessment that (the vast) majority of card farmers are from the regions with the cheaper games. However, you could be correct in that the most prolific ones are in UK, EU, or US (the 3 most expensive regions).
More importantly, though, I didn't appreciate or agree with the 'I'm not really interested in funding some asia-based crowd of card farmers that a completely CV-void site would serve perfectly.' comment. I don't see the correlation between farming cards and being a deadbeat as far as giveaways go. Yeah, some card farmer may have won my Notch giveaways instead of someone that 'wanted to play it', but that doesn't bother me, as long as they do their fair share of giveaways as well.
If you're talking about shenanigans (giveaways in closed grps, chaining titles, etc) or 'lower quality' giveaways (nothing but bundled stuff), I don't see why the ratio would be skewed significantly one way or the other vis-a-vis the 'card farmer' and the 'non card farmer'.
tl;dr? lol. Damn, that took me about an hour to write.
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What you are referring to is not card farming though. Card farming is what most people with thousand or thousands of games do: have a ton of games and use Idlemaster or some other program to idle them and farm the cards off. And that needs tons of games, and the people with tons of games are, well, not really from the cheap regions. Mostly.
What you described is booster crafting and gem trafficking, which a handful of people do, and currently isn't widely known enough to break the prices.
By the way, according to SCE, the card prices aren't really different than from Final Fantasy. I mean I'm earning 110% gem profits on FF now…
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Well, I wouldn't call it gem trafficking. I'm buying gems just like anyone else (except I'm saving money by buying profiles and emoticons instead of the bags themselves, hah)
Anyway,
The diff is, the FF XIII cards will drop in value fast. Actually, they'll drop in value too fast. Back before they had the 7 day lockout, you could make good profit by buying cards 4-8 hours after game was released, then selling them some 12-16 hrs later (before booster reset, and after all these initial players had farmed out their freebies).
Nekopara 1 has had a set value of $1.70+ ever since it has been released... It's $2.25+ or so right now.
err, lol, just noticed game is out for a day already, well
i'll leave that all there anyway, since;
http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/753/345350-Lightning%20and%20Snow
it plays out there.
but, it will end up being similar to trails in the sky: legend of heroes (ed: laugh, wtf.. the legend of heros: trails in the sky).. booster packs just reset maybe an hr ago? but it's still too early for most people in europe to be home from work, + it's lunch time in US. my guess is that these cards will continue to drop, and won't stabilize until around 0.20 or 0.21 usd. for 6 card set, that isn't worth making with gems (well, it would be very marginal, would depend on foil prices)
ed: i am running idle master right now, it has 139 games backlog, 539 cards =p
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oh, i'll eat some crow here, re: final fantasy, it's not behaving like previous FF games. maybe the BGs are better? I honestly haven't checked yet, just looked at card values.
I still think it's not something that will be 'good' to make boosters for long term (say, over a month from now), like nekopara
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just suggest from me, i think need change a bit this system because we keep growing
- change capacity point by level, to void CLONE lvl 0 - lvl 1 with auto entry
- lvl 0 = 50 point, lvl 1 = 150 , lvl 2 = 200 , lvl 3 = 250, lvl 4 = 300 < max so next lvl same capacity
- incrase Lvl SG, i think some ppl love GA here
- maybe incrase lvl SG to 15 make them happy n will GA more n more :D
- make different point Pure free game (Delete from list GA SG) with semi Free game (bundle CV point)
- for game Pure Free game (If some group / web GA more than 1000+) = ex : terablaster, why so evil, rush delta z
- semi free game = ex : Euro truck simulator 2 (Dont delete from list GA just make it bundle CV point )
Sorry bad english :p
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I would like to ask a little question to the users with more experience with how Steam API works: which kind of data it is possible to know, of each user, with the Steam API(nickname, date of creation, residence, ecc...)?
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Some people giveaway games because they want to and don't care about CV. Those people will continue to do that no matter which system we choose.
Some people only giveaway games so they can raise their CV. This is not as good as people who giveaway just for the joy of giving(arguably...) but that's a pointless comparison, because those people wouldn't magically become more generous if you removed the CV system. Those people would just stop giving stuff away.
Unless you think that giving games away in order to raise your CV is worse than not giving them away at all, I don't really see what you're hoping to achieve by removing the system. Seems more like an emotionally than rationally driven idea that will just end up decreasing the overall amount of happiness this site generates.
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I never say that giving away things to get CV is bad, it's the people who game the system, i.e. skirt around the rules or outright break them to get better CV, people like this existed before the CV system but the number of people who did things like this multiplied manyfold with the addition of the CV system.
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I'm also afraid that ppl won't make GA without Contribution level also...
Giving away game with minimum CV level also quite hurt but oh well.
people choose to make the GA free for all or free with term and condition
It is normal nowadays Σ(`-ω-‘)
And for region locked..I think the issue also come from Steam itself ><
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The CV system has been deteriorating and will continue to so long as games are being bundled left and right. It might not seem to be that huge of a problem now, but it definitely will cause the system to become obsolete sooner or later. Change is inevitable.
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since most peoples complain about abusing cheap games from cheap region. why not that who can make reglock ga;s is depend where they are,
for ex: ga reglock for ru/cis is only for user from those countries. outside those countries cannot make ga reglock for ru/cis
sorry for bad english
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It's actually interesting seeing the poll so different now. :o
Literally 51% are in favor of it keeping, while the rest want it changed/gone.
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Also interesting to note that "changed" and "gone" are not the same thing.
Edit: A more numerical way to look at it would be
774 users would prefer no change
538 users would prefer the current system to be altered
209 users would prefer the system removed altogether
52 users would prefer to see the system replaced completely by another method
With this in mind, even discounting inactive members, it's tough to get a solid grasp with less than 2,000 total voters
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I voted Fix / Change
But I wouldn't mind if we kept CV, added rep, added ratios, added playtime tracking, and go ahead and add 15 more random statistics we can base giveaway eligibility on. I like the math. GameMiner has a 'minimum giveaways entered' option even.
I don't actually care much. I barely play Steam games. I come here because I like you guys(irls).
But now I do need to reach Level 10 so I can frame it before it gets taken away.
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Throwing some ideas out regarding different aspects. Not specifically aiming any of them being implemented as is. Just food for thought. Do not focus on specific numbers. Such things would require inside information for proper balancing anyway.
The growing problem is the bundle issue. Current implementation has following issues:
- Bundle status is obscure. Items may get added months later. The 15% tax is hidden in FAQ. People do not know how the system works.
- Number of bundle titles is growing too big.
- Requires manual operation.
Rarity based rewards
Instead of a bundle list, decide giveaways value based on how rare the gift is. Rarity is based on how many giveaway there have been for that gift. For example: rare (0-10), uncommon (11-50), common (51+). The more common gift is, the less it gives contribution.
- Pros: Replaces bundle list with automatic calculation (no longer dead threats to Shobo) that works almost instantly, encourages people to giveaway more uncommon gifts, easy to understand and show current status, in-build inflation.
- Cons: Rarity != demand, encourages people to giveaway obscure DLCs for games no one has ever heard of etc., still drama because after a bundle has been released masses rush to make one hour giveaways for maximum profit and complain when they fail.
Demand based rewards
Another option to change bundle list as with rarity. Gifts with low demand (average number of entries) get bundle status and give less reward. Reduced number of entries overall e.g. on average public giveaway from 1000 to 100 would make this one work better. Number of entries can be reduced by either giving less points and moving into fixed number of entries per day.
Pros: Calculated automatically, encourages people to giveaway high demand gifts, in-build inflation (demand decreases so gift moves into bundle status).
Cons: Likely a nightmare to implement and uses lots of resources when running, bundle status may fluctuate, does not work well with rare gifts that are not given in public.
Separated contribution levels
Instead of a single level, have one for each type of giveaway: public, group & whitelist, private, bundle and combined. Giveaway can have one or more CL level requirements.
- Pros: Solves problem where people complain about others boosting their CL in group giveaways and then participating in public ones.
- Cons: Increases complexity, does nothing overly useful to the bundle issue.
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Cutting point generation in half would help giveaways feel more important. :D
Ooh, and if it's on the first page of the Universal Wishlist, give it a bonus to CV, or reduced bundle penalty. :P
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That could be added as separate point and an important one. I consider that currently the system allows entering way too many giveaways. Reducing the numbers would make people enter more carefully which in turn improve odds on desired giveaways.
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A Rarity based system would be nice, and improve the quality of games
but just like cv, it will discourage users who might have something i want, not to create giveaways for it
the only problems i have are that there's nothing you can do about the first few who bought a new bundle, basically they get more value for something that will turn common in just a couple of hours.
But it is the closest to working suggestion i found here, i dont see a way to fix the current system (unless you want to make it even more complex) and removing cv or levels is not an option, the site is already overcrowded with non contributors as it is
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Rarity could be calculated based on # of identical GAs in a certain time frame extending forwards and backwards.
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I think that until a better system is made it should be kept, is a downer to someone that has given over 500$ (not me atm) to enter a giveaway for a wishlisted game and then someone who never has given anything wins it, I mean that's not too bad but it's discouraging for someone who has gifted, still don't know if I am too negative today or what but if another system is made it would be exploited sooner or later so whatever is done someone will lose a bit a known gifter, a new user, etc. The +rep system is somewhat good but it can be easily exploited and still new users will have some difficulties... So my think of all this is keep the system or remove it and everyone gets the same chance, even if removing it generates some problems there are still private giveaways and puzzles which can be done to let only some people enter a giveaway this way known gifters can have more access to some giveaways but it depends on the gifter and he must do some extra work which is a bit of pain.
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One thing that annoys me personally is that I've read dozens of posts about people blacklisting other people who have a "poor ratio". And I haven't been very active on the forums at all.
There is something deeply wrong with that system. There are trillions of bundles, and it's easy to get a high "ratio" - buy a $1 bundle, keep 1 game for yourself, drop 4 giveaways, blam, your "gifts sent" goes up by 4 and $100, respectively... Despite actually giving away something like $0.8 or even $0.0 if you value the game you kept at $1.
In the eyes of those ratio-chasers, you are more worthy than if you had given a brand new copy of Fallout 4 or Skyrim upon release. So you end up being blacklisted. Woohoo!
This has probably been discussed many times before, so I don't think I'm adding anything relevant to this thread, but who cares.
(Also, for the record, I am still extremely pissed by The Talos Principle being "bundled" despite it never being actually bundled.)
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You can't put everyone in the same bag. And every GA creator has got it's own reasons for putting people on BL for ratio.
You can easily check if someone won ~100 non-bundled games / good bundle ones and gave 200 copies of -98% games. And I don't really think that people roam around and put people on BL just because of 2:1, 3:1 etc ratio. In the end BL has got just 1000 spots :D
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There's more going on concerning ratio than just raw numbers like 2/1; 3/1, 4/1 ratios. I have seen users state that they blacklist other users with stats reeking of mostly private giveaways and of users with stats suggesting a lot of activity in very small (less than 30 users) private groups. So blacklisting works both ways and btw there are users here that I've seen post that they have to check their blacklists for permanently suspended members to delete because they can't blacklist more as their blacklist is topped of...
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Yeah, I know. For me it's "better" to have 50:10 send/win ratio and give games in public GAs than someone with 100:400 ratio, but giving only for few friends in closed group.
Most of the time it's easy to pick who have mostly group/private GAs as forum events, because people like those are visible in the forum.
And I never heard of having full BL with pernament suspended users, some time ago someone from support said that at that time only around 40 members (out of 800k) were permamently banned.
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Sorry man English isn't my native language what I meant was that some users have to make room in their blacklist to keep on blacklisting as they are at 1000 blacklists.
Also I hear that concerning private giveaways that some say that you can't see the difference between a forum giveway and a private giveaway. Is this true as I never have done any private giveaways unless whitelists are also private giveaways?
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I'm not native as well ;)
You can't tell by looking at someone profile if certain private GA is for "friends" or "forum event" => rough indicator is number of entries, but if someone is making super hard puzzle, GAs will have low number of entries. I made private GAs for 2 forum events and one train - you can't know this without asking me about it.
Whitelist GAs are different, they are just visible on main page of the site and you don't have to put GA link anywhere to inform certain people about those. But they can be considered as private GAs, because they are available to only desired group of people.
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Glad to help someone whom I consider as "best kind of GA contributors on this site" ^_^
Because, really. Sometimes making public GAs with low level restrictions can be pain in the ass because of rerolls, fake "key doesn't work" accusations etc :D
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Thank you again! ^ ^ And I can say to you in all honesty that it does requir to do pre and post check ups on giveaway ending but the proverbial damage is reasonable as I have for the about 90% of public giveaways I did only had to contact support 10 times of wich 6 were request new winners because they owned them already.
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Around 40 members banned, not permanently suspended. A ban can only be done by the admin and means the user can't create a ticket to contact us.
Permanently suspended users can still contact us to appeal the suspension. There are much more of them, I have no idea of the number but there are new ones everyday.
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Thanks for clarification! :D I didn't even know about such distinction xD
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I don't care about ratio too much.
But the guy with over 100 unplayed wins? Yeah, he's not getting any more from me.
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If that would be the stupidest reason people blacklist for, that would be only moderately facepalm-worthy. At least it is a reason you can find some actual reasoning in there somewhere.
Blacklisting someone for not saying thanks, saying thanks, because (s)he argued with you on some game? Now that is when it crosses the "you are childish" territory.
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I can't say you're wrong because you're right but it happens on SG and it happens a lot!
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When was your last giveaway? When was your last win? You don't feel like you're a hypocrite?
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When was your last giveaway?
The last one is still probably unclaimed on the off-topic forum.
When SG was down recently, I dumped 4-5 keys on the Steam forums (edit: in the SG group). I also gave a key to someone when I accidentally won a game I already had, and he had to go through the trouble of contacting support and re-rolling, so that was compensation.
I've long stopped making giveaways for bundled games, and I am financially unfit for creating non-bundled giveaways (except Talos, which is now bundled, so it's not going to end up on this site, that's for sure).
Any more questions?
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I know I am a lurker but I've never seen this whole drama thing that people talk about or say at the beginning of the event/topic. I always thought these "gib me CV, this site is scam" was just a joke flying around...
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Like really? If you ever feel like to elaborate do let me know I'm more than eager to listen but doing it here is most likely a calling out or whatever.
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It wouldn't be calling out because I hardly remember names in real life either. But these topics get closed down fast either because the poster realises he is looking like an idiot or because someone wanders by and closes it.
But yes, it happens. Partly because people on the internet, especially teenagers are impatient and don't study the workings of the site enough, or because the FAQ isn't really Simple English friendly enough to be understandable without a medium level of English skill for foreign users.
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you will be better without knowing all the stupid cv complains in the forum xD
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It's sad to hear that, in my lil yellow hear I believed this site was toxic free. Oh well, it is not as if they make any difference for my. My whitelist is my priority and miserable bastards and complainers ain't on it.
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With the amount of bundles and Russian pricing putting everything into bundled category crap, and the new regional prices/restrictions I don't see a simple fix for the current system. So I voted for the removal.
I can tell you that the voting will end with "Keep" winning. A lot of users are gaining something from the current system while there is nothing to be gained from the removal of CV system.
However we should also consider the benefits of the current system. Yes people are making giveaways just for the CV most of the time, but it still doesn't change the fact they are making giveaways and keeping the site active. Without a CV system, I am afraid we won't see most of the giveaways we see today. Also low levels (1,2,3) can be used while creating public giveaways as a countermeasure to avoid bots, alt accounts or inactive people who have no idea about the site rules.
I gotta say I am against a rep or downvote/upvote system. I hope the new system will be completely automated without human interaction(and room for abuse).
Otherwise it will be like the nomination events with the same small number of people +repping and sending gifts to each other every time.
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I would agree something that is automated is the best, but there are just so many problems with getting an automated system that covers all the bases. I had a feeling that keep would win when I made the poll but at the end of the day, as much as I personally want the system to be removed or replaced, I have to consider what all the users want just not myself.
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It's been over two years since cg made this poll thread, and I feel like it's time to re-examine the topic now that we've had ample time to experience the system. Keep in mind a few changes have occurred since this post, as they relate to CV, these are:
-Contribution levels
-Region locked giveaways
-Blacklist & whitelist
Some background
Firstly, I would like to state that I am a longtime member here on SteamGifts. I first started using the site in December 2011, and for context the Humble Indie Bundle 4 had just released and Skyrim was still a new game. At the time there were only a few mods active on Steamgifts: Raiden, Cult, and the heavy lifter Lokonopa. There was no contributor value system, however there was the "Contribution" stat on everyone's profile which was simply the dollar amount of all the games you had given away based on their current price. Some groups did use this for their own systems as well as some rules on giveaways (before such things were no longer allowed), but otherwise there was no contributor system as we know it today and certainly no contributor giveaways.
One of the other big differences on the site at the time was that bundle games couldn't be given away on the site. That was strictly a no-no, and closely tied to the contribution stat. Even then with just the contribution stat, people would still make bundle game giveaways, going against the rules, and they would still "boost" contribution with fake feedback. So the problem has always been there, even before the now implemented contribution system went into place.
So onward to the new contribution system. Initially it seemed like a pretty good idea, rather than contribution being something that was rewarded for in private (via groups) it was now publicized meaning anyone who had spent some money out of their own pocket could be rewarded with more exclusive giveaways. It's a great incentivization tactic and is one of the driving forces behind at least one other giveaway site out on the web that I'm aware of.
Yet here I am, making this thread. So what gives? What's wrong with the system?
The issues
By and large, my biggest issue with the system is the misuse. It doesn't sound like much but it introduces a headache of concerns. As of now the system does a mostly good job at what it's supposed to. It values items that have been bundled or deeply discounted less than those that haven't to try and get a good approximation of each users contribution level. Those users are in turn rewarded with more exclusive giveaways. I've already explained it. For the most part it works okay, however it's not perfect.
Fortunately boosting via feedback fraud has become more difficult (but hardly impossible) and seems to be less of an issue. However newer issues have emerged or at least have become more prevalent. Regifting is a good example, prior to CV regifting was rare, it happened but not at the rate that I see it happen today. I've seen a group of users banned for splitting four packs and then getting CV by making "giveaways" for those games. There are the more difficult to prove forms of misuse as well. For example there is nothing stopping users from begging developers for keys to giveaway (and in return give the developers promotion). Nothing technically against the rules perse (begging is not allowed but it could be argued that they didn't beg for the keys on SteamGifts itself) but it's definitely not in the spirit of the system and whether or not it break rules, I'd still label it as misuse. The newest concern seems to stem from region locked giveaways, again nothing against the rules, but a user from say the U.K. could "farm" CV by getting RU copies to giveaway via the new region lock giveaways.
Drama of course has been another issue since the introduction of this system. I myself have willingly got myself suspended (sorry mods for the extra work ;-;) for standing up against some users I feel are gaming the system, and I've seen plenty of other drama related threads based around the similar circumstances. I've seen arguments about so many types of CV related topics as well as plenty of criticism for poor Shobo who is doing one hell of a job working that bundle list (<3). The aforementioned region locked giveaways and how they relate to CV seems to be a more current hot topic on the subject.
I'll conclude by saying that I generally don't appeal to the good 'ole days, mostly because I'm not a very nostalgic person, yet in this instance I must. For the first year or two on this site the feel of the site and its community was much more positive and encouraging. When I first found the site I was amazed it was a real site, that people could be this generous, that something like this could actually exist. For the longest time it felt like people made giveaways to actually be generous and be a part of the excitement of giving. Some still do for sure, <3 to the forums and steam chats that keep this place great. Yet since the introduction of the CV system it has really taken a dive from my perspective. So many users treat this site like a job, evaluating the cost/benefit of price glitches, deep discounts, bundles, etc. You don't have to look far to see someone upset about why they have 39.99 CV or why game x has been put on the bundle list but game y hasn't. It sometimes seems like SteamGifts is just an extension of SteamTrades with a random component thrown in.
The fix?
I'll keep it simple. Replace it, remove it, or fix it. I for one would prefer to see it removed entirely, have the contribution stat on user profiles or don't, I don't care too much about that. Nix the bundle list and let groups and individuals judge a users giveaways and contribution themselves. This would also mean the full removal of contributor giveaways, something I would be all too glad to see. I personally don't see much incentive in fixing the system, one of the inherent problems is that it publicizes (for lack of a better word) the incentivization aspect of the site which may mean more giveaways but also means more of a headache dealing with all the extra baggage it comes with.
tl;dr
The contribution system has its flaws, letting some selfish and greedy users win giveaways intended for the most generous of users, it requires additional work by the support team to maintain, and has led to more than its fair share of drama since its introduction. Replace it, fix it, or remove it. Please.
P.S. I hate to be instigating all of this, but I really do feel like this site could be better with changes to the system (or more helpfully its removal or replacement). I wouldn't be making this thread if I didn't feel strongly for what I've posted. I like this site but my activity has dropped off drastically since the changes and I'm constantly jaded by users gaming the system and getting rewarded for it. So I'm sorry, but at the same time I'm not sorry.
Edit:
I went through and found a few choice posts by support members (whom I single out for their inside knowledge of some of the issues)
rep based system by wbarton
short post by cg
post by Khalaq
current state of affairs with the bundle list by SleepyCat
Some suggestions for alternatives by members
some different approaches by tubberware
entry based system approached by Ricki w/ response by cg
similar entry absed system suggsted by GauRocks
an older alternative provided by TheDopefish
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