if its a rpg or anything that's storie driven than you have to at least finish it once, that way you can aces the complete game and not just apart of it, especially first 30 minutes, in most rpgs first 30 minutes doesn't say anything about a game, usually for a first couple of hours you cant be sure what kind of a game it is, for those games its just a begging, for a fps you should try it for at least couple of hours or until you know its pace, its weapon and enemy types and start to notice the patterns, in that moment you know something about the game and can say if you like it or not and why, but still it not truly a review because there's a chance it all goes down from there, maps start to look like one another, there are no new weapons or enemies and you basically have a game that plays great for an couple of hours and than starts to recycle its self. in 26 minutes you probably didn't see 10% of the game and it can still surprise enough that it becomes your favorite game or your worst purchase ever.
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"review" is really a toss-up these days man. People like "WTF is..." play the first 10 or so minutes of a game to show people what it's like hands down, while people like Cricken, Bro Team and Yahtzee have a more comical perspective of the game review style, with almost a disregard for the traditional review in a sense. Then you have people like TheBestGamersUSA who just burp and fart into the microphone and then laugh about it while showing you commercials for CoD.
It's impossible to say "this isn't a proper game review" these days.
Says the admin for broteampill. Silly me.
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(From the comments i deduced that the aforementioned video is TB's Wtf is..., if it's not, my comment can be invalid.)
There are two things that distinguish his videos from reviews. The first is, that the games he plays are neither looked from a perspective nor a grander scale. He literally just start the game for the first time, plays some tutorial levels, and then starts recording: the series point is to show people the first stages of the game, tell them about the mechanics of it and what he thinks of it. His opinion may change multiple times during the recording, as he proceeds in the game ["This part is pretty cool! So far the game looks great! (...) Well, this is getting pretty boring. (...) Just when i thought there's nothing much to the game, it suddenly..." etc.], and review has to be one-noted through the entire thing. A reviewer can't suddenly change his mind in the middle of the review - and that's the "perspective" part.
Now, the "grand scale" part. A review can't be made by looking on only one part, but a game as a whole. As they say, you can't judge a book by it's cover, and if you haven't seen enough of the game to be sure you know what's the game is about, you can't review it - i'll even give you a cool example! Do you know the game Shogun 2? You can beat your first battles by just standing in a spot and waiting for your enemy to attack you, and if your army is bigger than his, you'll win most of the times. The battles are getting more strategic, when your and your opponents army are rather big, full of more advanced units. Now, a person who sees only those first battles (or just an early game economy that differs quite a lot from the mid- and late game economy) is unable to review it and even if the person calls the thing he made a "review", it's NOT a review. TB in his WTF is... was only an hour and a half into the game, and he even specifically stated, that he don't know how stealthy the game is on later levels, or if the killcams gets boring when the novelty fades.
The second thing is, TB specifically stated on many occasions, that his Wtf is...'s aren't and shouldn't be considered reviews, but his first impressions. And that should be enough.
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You seem to have a very narrow definition of what a review is.
I've seen written reviews change tone throughout the piece, in fact it's very common for reviewers to like one aspect and not another.
I'd disagree that you can't review something if you haven't seen enough of it. It might not be a completely valid or helpful review, but if you still criticise and evaluate some aspects of it, to me that is still a review.
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"I've seen written reviews change tone throughout the piece, in fact it's very common for reviewers to like one aspect and not another."
That's not what i wrote at all. I meant that one cannot change his mind in the middle of a review. He can't start it by saying, that the game is good, and finish with "the game is pretty bad" or something like this.
"I'd disagree that you can't review something if you haven't seen enough of it. It might not be a completely valid or helpful review, but if you still criticise and evaluate some aspects of it, to me that is still a review." And i agree, it is. It is a review to you. But that's not what a definition of a review is. If a person have seen only a beginning of something, and he writes/records his opinion about it, it's not a review - it's his first impressions. If he writes/records his opinion about a part of the game, it's his impressions of that part of a...
Hey, wait a second. We're not talking about a definition of a review, we're talking about why or why not TB's video is a review. I even wrote "...that distinguish his videos from reviews". So don't you turn things upside down, because i gave a clear and indisputable argument in the second part of my comment.
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Reviews can and do do that: Start off talking about how good the game is, or how bad it is, and then change throughout.
I'm not turning anything upside down, you said that these aspects to you represent the difference between a review and what TB does, thus I am arguing those aspects in order to bridge that gap.
If someone has a series of critical opinions on something, and evaluates it's worth, that to me is a review. If it is just a review based on their first impressions or the whole thing is irrelevant in terms of whether it's a review or not, and just serve to speak to how valid the review is.
Plenty of professional reviewers review things without having fully seen the game, in fact you could argue that most professional reviewers do.
If you care to isolate and highlight your clear and indisputable argument for me I'll gladly dispute it for you.
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Unless I read what you wrote differently than you meant it, reviews can't change throughout.
"Game SOMETHING is unplayable piece of crop. It's ugly, sounds terrible, and is stupid. And let's not forget how great it is, beautiful and all in all, best game ever made"...
Usually, first 2-3 sentences of a review can be enough to know if reviewed thing is worth it or not. And from the beginning each point in that review must have is usually written with corresponding style. Very short examples how I remember reviews: "I love GAME. Unfortunatelly, it have terrible graphics, but that isn't enough to not have hours of fun" or "I hate GAME. It graphics sux, which actually isn't surprising, since everything sux about it".
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There's a difference between changing how you feel about a game as you move through it and uncover different aspects, and actively contradicting yourself. You seem to know the difference as your later examples would suggest.
I can only conclude that you are trying to be difficult on purpose, rather than trying to see my point.
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He doesn't want them to be considered reviews, that doesn't make them not reviews.
Following that fantastic logic, if a murderer doesn't want his murder to be considered a crime, it wouldn't be... apparently.
See? Pretty easy to dispute actually. :P
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review has to be one-noted through the entire thing
I'm sorry, but that's an utterly stupid thing to say. Reviews that are either all praise of all negativity are literally the worst reviews there are. Any game is going to have strong points and weak points, and any good reviewer is going to find things they like and things they don't like in a game. A reviewer that doesn't try to apply this kind of nuance, to shine a light on both the good and the bad part is just a shitty reviewer. If I want ignorant praise I'll go mingle with the fanboys on the official forums and if I want hatred and negativity I'll go make a trollpost on /v/, but if a reviewer wants to be taken seriously he better have something more balanced and nuanced to tell me.
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But that's still wrong.
He can't start it by saying, that the game is good, and finish with "the game is pretty bad" or something like this.
If he's giving his opinion (which is 90% of what a review is), then yes he can. It's just a choice in how to present it. Say for example that a game is a lot of fun the first hour, but after that it becomes super repetitive and boring. A reviewer can just come out right away and call the game repetitive and boring, but that wouldn't do justice to that first hour. So he can start the review by mentioning the things the game does right and how it seems a lot of fun, and then go on how it didn't stay fun for him because it was just the same thing over and over again. In the end he can reach the conclusion that the game is bad and give it a bad score. This is a far more complete view of the game than just saying that it's boring and maintaining that opinion for the entire review, because some people might like the positive parts enough to buy it and not care about the repetitiveness. The only people who'd have an issue with this would be those that only read the first paragraph of the review before forming an opinion, but fuck those people anyway.
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My flak with TB is even though he isn't a review, people still see him as one regardless and treat it as one. The guy is so uninformed that it's really sad to see people back his views on certain games and what not. Just after watching a few I've decided I'd be better off muting him and just watching the gameplay if I want to see what it's like.
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a review IS just an analysis of a part of the game... unless u say you review whole games tell them to shove it up their a**. for instance zero punctuation does full reviews on the "bad" sides of games and nothing more. also totalbiscuit (or totalhalibut) does "wtf is" which is about first impressions... its still a review but of certain parts and people who cant appreciate a review for what it shows instead of what it doesn't are stupid... (btw i generally don't like reviews as they are from that person's perspective... not the viewers so audiences shouldn't be relying on them anyway...)
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IF around 30 minutes of gameplay is enough to make a review (and by that I mean "hey there, time to talk about GAME, let's sit down, unpack disc, start new game and let's see what will happen", not "I played it for last 2 days, and now I'll give my thoughts about it while showing gameplay instead of my boring face"), I guess you can judge a book by its cover...
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A review is you personal opinion you are free to do it the way you want. If people don't like it it's their right too, and they can express it as long as they are not being offensive while doing so. When they do get offensive keep in mind it's the internet and don't let them get to you. +1 to your karma pool for making a review btw. =)
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On Backloggery, there are two "finished" statuses for games -- "Beaten" and "Completed".
I like their definitions of both, and consider that a review should have "Beaten" the game, whilst I don't expect a reviewer to have "Completed" a game, and definitely not "Mastered". Sometimes, a review doesn't finish the game at all, but in every case, a reputable reviewer should declare that loudly and clearly, and also the "why" -- the reason they didn't finish.
imho.
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I agree with you, Taerdin. However, it would be okay to say up to which point have you gotten. "This game, in my opinion, is yaddayaddayadda, however, I did not get to experience thisandthat yet, so my view on the game may change, but up to this point, it's as I have stated" :3
But yes, it's still a review.
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A review is a review, it is always something subjective.
Nevertheless, there are certain requirements one has to fulfill in order to call it one.
The story imo is a secondary aspect of a review, whereas the technical sector and gameplay of a certain game are more important. However, this is just me and other gamers may take the story as a primary criterion for a game.
Hope it helped ;)
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What i remember from school a review should have a beginning, amplification and conclusion.
In a beginning you present the thing, where it came from, what's you are going to talk about etc.
In a amplification you talk about content, plot, curious details etc.
In a conlusion you sum up, give a score, and say your own opinion about it, is it worth or not worth etc.
That was brief and i might be totally wrong :P
Anyways a review is a personal matter, you show your own view on something based on likes, experiences, trends, technology, whatever makes you like or dislike in current moment something. But a reviewer needs to thorough, do you imagine writing a review after watching half of the movie or reading half of the book? :) You can't write a good review based on a first impression - that's i think the main mistake people do nowadays. They make a review 5 min after finishing the game, being still under the emotions and not thinking entirely clearly. I also agree with Azuranski "a reviewer can't suddenly change his mind in the middle of the review" - its just not a review anymore. I like to watch first look on a game, where someone just opened a game for the first time and is playing it "with me", it's fun to watch and it gives some informations, but it's not a review. When it comes to games, a good reviewer doesn't need to see every last bit of a game but needs to see most of it - like 90% of it :)) I got high standards, but that is what i expect from a proper reviewer. If someone is thorough i know he knows what he's talking about. I know these are not guesses or expectations from a game but facts and actuall experiences. I also think that a score is needed in one way or another, simply by saying its good/not good or giving a note 5, 10, whatever. Scores are also fun for receivers, because they can hate someone for instance for giving a higher note to Oblivion than to Skyrim :P
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I'm so sick of people comparing video games to books or movies. The comparison does not hold up at all for various reasons.
I also think it's silly how you place an arbitrary number on how much of the game someone has to see before they review it. So if they play 89.9% of the game it's not a review, but if they play just 0.01% more it is according to you.
To me as long as you make criticisms and evaluate it, it's a review. The more you play of the game the more valid your review becomes, but it's still a review.
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I'm the one telling you to not take the definition so literally...
You did compare books movies and video games though...
A book has 300 pages (for instance). Everyone reads the same 300 pages, everyone has the same experience, once you complete those 300 pages, the book is finished and there is nothing new to see.
A movie is 90 minutes (for instance). Everyone sees the same 90 minutes, everyone has the same experience, once you complete those 90 minutes the film is finished and there is nothing new to see.
A game has x amount of content. It might take me 10 hours to see all that content, it might take you 6 hours. We might play the game differently and have very different experiences. Once we've seen the main plotline to completion there are still new things to see.
Conclusion, movies books and video games are very different. I hope this makes more sense for you, I tried really hard to make it simple for you to understand.
It's easy to say that the reviewer should 'finish' a game before reviewing it, but it's harder to explain exactly what that means. Just because you finish the main plotline doesn't mean you've seen everything the game has to offer. In fact probably 99% of reviews didn't see everything the game had to offer, as there are so many obscure and subtle things developers put in games all the time. To compare video games to books and movies in terms of reviews is at best incredibly naive, and at worst a complete disservice to the medium we both enjoy.
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I don't agree that everyone has the same experience after reading the same book or watching the same movie. Everyone looks at things differently from their own point of view, various things make impression. Haven't you ever read a book you love 20+ times and yet still find something new in it every time you read it? In movies and books there are the same number of subtle things to see and many reviewers didn't notice them or didn't understand the makers reasons. Like it was with "Lucky Louie" serie on HBO ages ago (i'm gonna be blamed for comparing games to stuff now for sure :P)
By the way, there was a movie called "Fight Club" in one of the final scenes they placed man genitals in one frame, you couldn't see it with your eyes but your brain registered it and you were leaving a cinema with a stronger feeling :)
Again, i'm not comparing games to books or games to movies or whatever, however i am saying that when you are making a review there are some general guidelines. There is a thing called "review" you want to do it, it doesnt matter what it reffers to. Of course review of a book will differ from a review of a game. Again i'm not comparing games to books as products, what i'm saying is that there is the same pattern in making a "document" called review.
So what i expect from a good review and a good reviewer. I expect it to be accurate, i want to know a person who made a review studied the game, gave it some thoughts, tried to understand, did background check and plenty more aspects that i can't think of right now. Review like i said is a personal opinion and i want to know that too. I'm not saying you need to see every secret room or find every easter egg. But let's go from one extreme to another: let's say i'm running a website making game reviews and i give Batman: Arkham City to one of my employes tell him to make a review. Week later he's coming back saying: "ok i played it for a few hours, finished half of it, i also found many secrets and i finished writing the review 5 min ago, placed it on the website, gonna publish full review later on, oh btw who made the game?" - i would fire the guy straight away. There is no such thing like "full review" - it should always be full.
I'm having a hard time trying to explain my point and it's killing me :D
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Okay so I did a terrible job of conveying what I meant I guess.
But there is a difference in what you experience between books movies and video games, that shouldn't really be a debate. Even if you didn't notice something, or your personal experience and interpretations of the words or pictures were different than someone elses, you still saw all those words and images in that book or movie. There isn't like a secret page, or 'side quest' page that you have to unlock by reading well enough.
I think you're having a really hard time separating your personal standards of what you want a review to live up to, and what a review actually is. If you think that things that people post as reviews, even on professional and popular websites, always live up to your standards of what you would call a 'review', then you are kidding yourself.
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Of course there is a difference in experience i never questioned it, but that's not the point.
Just because something is on the internet doesn't mean it shouldn't be proffesional or well made. And just because someone is calling something a review doesn't mean it actually is one. As i said i like to watch/read stuff from many sources, it doesn't annoy that someone called something a review, i don't care, but i don't consider everything a review just because it is called review :)
You are trying to put words in my mouth :)
Review is a word for today
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"There isn't like a secret page, or 'side quest' page that you have to unlock by reading well enough."
Well, if you think about it, there is :P Because, for example there are plenty of poems where many people got many different interpretation of the same words.
:P
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But that's still the same words. My point is a game effectively has hidden pages, if you don't quite do something in just a particular way you might never experience a whole section another person did. Not just a personal interpretation of something, but actually different and new content.
In that way almost no reviewers actually complete a game before reviewing it. It would be absurd to ask a reviewer to attempt every situation in every way possible, redo every branching conversation path in a different way, etc etc.
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sorry i have nothing constructive to add. i dont read/watch reviews for the most part. i feel there's a certain amount of "paid advertisement" reviewing going around [not just in games] and i prefer to rely on friends' and communities' opinions than some reviewer.
but then, youtube is not like traditional reviewing as many have stated before. and also, 98% of the commentors on youtube are dicks who like the sound of their own tapping out a reply.. just a fact of life. :\
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I'd say it depends on the game. If the game is a heavy story-based game (Heavy Rain, perhaps Mass Effect) then yeah, one needs to play the entire game. Exceptions could be made if the gameplay is so horrible people are unable to finish the game out of boredom, bugs preventing completion, and things like that.
If the game is something like Frozen Synapse or Dark Souls, then no, the entire game doesn't need to be played as in that case it is mainly the gameplay, level design, maybe music that one is going to look at and for the most part you can get a feel for those rather quickly. Though even then there should be some disclaimer like "I only played X hours and got X way through, there may be some huge change after that point that makes the game shit." though for the most part I doubt something like that would happen. I think Serious Sam 3 has a level near the end that is really bad because you run directly into the sun, so that could be an example of level design getting worse near the end of the game. Overall level design would probably be a better way to look at it though as that is more likely to change. Take Dark Souls, (spoiler?) if you review it after Smough and Ornstein you can't comment specifically on level design of the future levels, but you could look at the over all design and conclude that there will still be hidden paths and items and that it wont suddenly get colorful and put you in candyland or whatever and most likely you'll be correct each time, though there may be specific things about levels that are bad, like the lava level that had a lot of complaints. Now, if someone has played through the entire game then that would mean they could write a better review than they otherwise would.
Pretty much I agree with you when you say: "I mean assume the game has no real plot or character development, it's just levels where you shoot guys and it's awesome. You might unlock some new weapons as you play, see some new enemies, go to some new locations, but the gameplay remains largely the same. In effect, the first hour or so you play, you actually know just about all the game has to offer, don't you?"
Games that do not revolve around story do not need to be played all the way through to be reviewed well, though that would make a review better than it otherwise would be.
Hopefully this makes sense.
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You NEED to play a significant proportion of the game. If it was Skyrim (as per your example) you should at least play it twice (with different character builds), meaning you will have gone through the whole main quest at least once in full and several (preferably most) of its side quests when adding both playthroughs. Many of those sidequests should be experienced with the second character build.
This is just one of my main gripes with modern game reviews they are hastily written, and 8 out of 10 times, this means the reviewer hasn't really experienced the game as a whole, but rather got a taste of it and moved on.
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"If it was Skyrim (as per your example) you should at least play it twice (with different character builds), meaning you will have gone through the whole main quest at least once in full and several (preferably most) of its side quests when adding both throughway. Many of those sidequests should be experienced with the second character build."
Okay but how many 'professional' reviews do you think did that? Yet it's still okay to call those reviews, but not okay to call someone making criticisms and evaluations on a game for 26 min in a video reviews?
This is why I'm confused
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Yeah, you are correct! The thing is I don't consider most of those "professional" reviews, well, neither professional nor much of a review. Most of them are written so awfully it feels they are 18 year-old high-school drop outs, they have no perspective on the video game industry aside from modern "action" crapfests, and haven't even played the game they are "reviewing" to its conclusion! And these "reviewers" have also destroyed every scoring system in existence, which is not a necessity for a review in the first place anyway. What is very good to have in my opinion though, is a last paragraph where you expose a summation of the whole review that precedes it.
But, honestly, I think it's rather silly to flame on you for posting a video review. A 30 minute video review takes a whole lot of time and effort. Those persons are dicks. It's also true that for most games a full playthrough is enough (98% of FPS fall here), and for many of those, less than a full playthrough is also enough... the thing is that you can't know that until you have finished the game! It may very well be that the second half gets annoying/was rushed/is full of bugs/whatever and the only way to know it is to play the game fully at least once.
And something some other posters said is also true: if you actually say that this is more of a first impression than a full review, then you are fine.
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I can definitely agree that most 'reviews' leave a lot to be desired, but I would still call them bad reviews rather than not reviews.
Also to clarify, I didn't make a video review, I called a video a review and then people got pissed at me for insinuating that it was one.
Thanks for being so understanding :)
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Everyone can make a review, its just play a little bit of the game, exposing your first impressions of the game, some points like, the Music , GamePlay , General View, Graphics (if is needed), Its just like playing a DEMO. Little demonstration of the game.
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Yes, you do have to play the entire game before coming out with a review. You don't have to express the absolute entirety of it on the review itself but you must point out every remarkable and bad thing about it which can include bits of the storytelling and game mechanics throughout the whole thing, the game turning stale after a while can be considered a negative aspect and is worth mentioning in a review. Not playing every bit of the title and pumping out a review or a score (good or bad) for it can be considered fraudulent, specially when you're just plain comparing it to other titles (unless, of course, this includes concept stealing) and talking about things such as pricing and gamer appeal.
The scoring system for reviews are basically ways of summarizing reviews by using a number. The bigger the number, the higher the quality of the product perceived by the reviewer. The overall quality of video game titles is based off the Graphics, the Sound and the Gameplay. Giving each one of these factors a "score" based off presentation and calculating the average between the three is a way to give a general thought of how well they were put up. Scores are mostly a way to summarize your entire review so the ADHD guys get a general idea of how well the product is without having to analyze every bit of your words. Keep in mind scores should never be vital aspects of your review as a whole, as they're only a complement to the main thing.
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The issue I'm talking about is not what is ideal to do before writing a review, or what is good things to include in a review. I'm merely debating whether or not criticisms and evaluations in which the person did not necessarily finish the entire game can still be called a review, even though it is not a full review or the most valid it could be.
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I called a 26 minute video where someone shows gameplay of a game, talks about how the game plays, compares and contrasts it with other games, talks about how it will appeal to certain types of gamers, shows off the various modes, criticises various aspects of it, and then evaluates the value for the cost of it a review.
Silly me.
Now I have various youtube commenters jumping down my throat to tell me that unless you play every last bit of a game it's not considered a review.
Because I'm sure everyone who reviewed Skyrim saw every scrap of content in that game.
At this point you are probably wondering what the discussion value of this thread is. It's simple really. What do you think makes something a review? Does it need to have a score? Do they really need to see every last bit of the game?
To me, reviewing something means to examine and assess it. Just because something is not a thorough or complete view of it, doesn't make it not a review in my opinion.
Please help me to understand what it actually is, because apparently I am wrong.
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