Is that warranted?
Steam already has games like Agony, Succubus and Lust from Beyond. This cant hardly be worse.
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Adult games are allowed on steam, as long as the devs mark the game 18+, aren't they?
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Oh, yeah, adult games ARE allowed, as long as they are properly marked as such, and the developer/publisher doesn't play too much with the filters... that is, provided they don't hurt the delicate feelings of certain special snowflakes who hate everything that looks like it might remotely resemble anime (unless there's a big company behind, 'cause as everybody knows, money talks).
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Yeah pretty stupid they got a lot of adult related games that like wolvesblade mentioned cant be worse. I don't know whats worse never coming or being like the kiss for petals maidens where it was released and pulled shortly after
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Erotic elements are perfectly fine by me. Porn for the sake of porn is a whole other story though. Can't judge this game, that's the first time I've heard of it.
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Here is some more info on the game if your interested: https://vndb.org/v23742
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Evenicle 1 was a decent game. It's a pretty good jrpg on its own right even without the adult content.
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Is the content THAT sensitive? Because I already saw some f***ed up stuff up for sale on Steam,
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There are PLENTY of adult games on Steam! That is such BS!
I remember a time when "You Must Be 18 or Older to Enter" was among others which got swept up in the whole debacle, but I also explicitly recall that Valve later finally took a stance and reversed that decision - and by Valve's good graces - that game was put back up. Also, ironically, that one wasn't explicitly eroge, just fake eroge. Regardless, there are such games on Steam now, so I don't buy the excuse that it was not going to be admitted on Steam for the adult content. Games are at least marked 18+ for that reason, along with the tags, so this should not be an issue.
I can understand there's regional issues at hand that's separate from that. They did state they wouldn't release the English version. If this was a regional issue, that is more believable. Otherwise, the adult content is not unlike what is already on Steam, and that would not be Valve's position to reject them for that, unless it's some rogue employee.
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If The Song of Saya is allowed, then anything should be allowed. (But I guess the Steam version of that is pretty heavily watered down)
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what if this is just a mediacampaign to get people talk about this game?
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That's most certainly it. It's not like Steam is releasing official statements on games they pass on so the whole "ooooh noes! Steam doesn't want our game because it's sooooo naughty! Bet you reaaaaaally want it now, don't you?" strategy is a winning one.
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This is not the first time Valve has arbitrarily blocked/banned/delisted the release of a visual novel. This is a common occurrence. A Kiss for the Petals - Maidens of Michael is one sad example where Valve went radio silent on the publisher and it was fully censored too. Keep in mind that Evenicle 1 is on Steam, but for some reason, Evenicle 2 is not allowed. And Evenicle 1 is uncensored and very... yeah. It has a reputation. Valve is severely inconsistent with their policies and when a visual novel is submitted, it's subject to Valve RNG: you just hope it doesn't get rejected for whatever arbitrary reason they give.
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Adult games are allowed on steam, and I wish more ambitious adult VR games
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I'd be interested to know what's so special about this one that it isn't allowed. If it's about romancing a child or something I get it, otherwise (like others have said already) I can't imagine why this one wouldn't be allowed where so many others are.
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I'd rather they reject those crappy R18 game (most of which are low effort asset flip, even worse than those R18 RPGMaker games you found on DLSite) rather than high quality games like these. The store is flooded with crap, while quality stuffs run into barrier entering Steam. Doesn't make any sense at all.
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AliceSoft has very little presence outside of Japan. I wonder if this is the real reason?
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It would appear it was cancelled due to the sexualization of minors in the game.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1350710/discussions/0/5760637065630377034/#c5760637065631669201
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So basically : There are hundred of games in steam that the girls look quite young, and could perfectly pass as minors
BUT
It's not anime, so it's OK
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I know you're for freedom of speech but they have to draw the line somewhere.
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If no living beings are being harmed, I don't see a problem.
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You don't see a problem with the portrayal of pedophilia for sexual entertainment?
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First I have to challenge you on the illegality. We're not talking about illegal here. We are talking about Steam's right, as a gaming platform, to choose to participate, or not to participate in the dissemination of material for whatever reason.
If the government was making a law banning it from sales, it would be censorship. I would have no problem with that for reasons I'll mention in a minute but that's not what we're discussing here.
Valve is a private corporation that has the right not to sell something, just like you have the right as a private citizen not to play it.
There are very few instances where I believe that censorship is right, and those are when harmful ideologies are being expressed in a way that encourages others to act on them
And that's where you draw the line, and I get it but Valve has a right to draw the line less far than you do.
And that's also where the issue is. You're not seeing the big picture. You think that because it's fictional it's ok but there is hard data on the fact that pedophile with no prior offense can be triggered to act by child pornography and even if there wasn't any data and it was a mere possibility, it's a documented fact that most pedophiles who have acted on their fantasies are consumers of child pornography so I am asking you, as a store, would you be comfortable making access easier?
I know it won't change the fact that these games exist, just like child pornography exists, and that they are distributed, but Valve can choose not to have it on their hands and that's not only legal but a right not to participate in the distribution of material they judge problematic.
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Just a small point. Child pornography is illegal everywhere, with good reason. And there are innocent children involved. Nobody is discussing that it should be illegal. But we are not talking about child pornography. We are talking about a bunch of pixels here. And as far as I know, there is no data that pedophiles that consume videogames, that it encourages them to act on their impulses. I have actually heard the opposite, that people that acts on their urges on videogames, that it's better because while their urges it's there, they are doing on a harmless game. I know I would prefer an obsessed person with it that has 500 games, and gets a post-nut clarity once a day, that a person also obssessed with it that has no legal way to release...
There was a crusade years ago that said that violent games made people violent. And there were a bunch of "studies" that agreed with them. "there is hard data on the fact that pedophile with no prior offense can be triggered to act by child pornography and even if there wasn't any data and it was a mere possibility" Let's change that to "and even if there wasn't any data that violent people are triggered by violent games and it was a mere possibility..." If there had been a stronger push to ban violent games, not by the goverment, but by the society at large, we would all be playing Candy Crush and similar games right now. I think we are lucky internet and social media was weaker at those times.
Just because Valve has the right to put anything you want in their platform, no discussion here, doesn't mean it's not censorship. I have never understood why people only consider it censorship when it's the goverment. Nowhere in the definition of censorship, no matter which dictionary, says that it's censorship only when the goverment does it. Let's say that tomorrow every single tech company, amazon, google, apple, reddit, decided to ban anything critic to big tech. Well, it's not censorship, because it's not the goverment, right? Videos in youtube? Deleted. Comments on facebook? Deleted. Comments on reddit? Deleted. Comments on twitter? Deleted. News companies that talk about things... can't even talk about it since most of them use Amazon AWS. Ok, I'll create a website critical of big tech myself.... and no search history in google or bing will take me to it. Fine, I'll create my own search website to reach it... ooops? I can't even use google play or apple play to install it? I'll create my own company of phones to allow my own search website to reach my own website critical of big tech... Ooops. Process payments companies refuse to work with me.... Change critic to big tech to anything you want. And according to some, it's not censorship, because it's not the goverment. Even if Big tech has much, much, much more information about you than the goverment.
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But we are not talking about child pornography. We are talking about a bunch of pixels here. And as far as I know, there is no data that pedophiles that consume videogames
The data is about the consumption of any material involving underage participants, regardless of type or genre so videogames are not exempt of psychological impact.
I have actually heard the opposite
Yeah that's unsupported by data unfortunately and it remains wishful thinking. There are the same theories about violent pornography and rape perpetrators but again, no data or hard evidence, just hoping and wishing.
Let's change that to "and even if there wasn't any data that violent people are triggered by violent games and it was a mere possibility..."
You're talking about a possibility on a small percentage of people. We were talking about a specific group of violent offenders.
Let's say that tomorrow every single tech company, amazon, google, apple, reddit, decided to ban anything critic to big tech.
That's completely unrealistic. Unless we are talking about law and law enforcement, the idea that something could be uniformly banned by dozens, shit, hundreds of independent corporations is ludicrous and even if that happened, there would be dozens of sites rising just to do the opposite. Look at twitter and parler and all the new social media platforms used by radicals who don't feel welcome on twitter and Facebook anymore.
The only effective censorship can only come from government enforcement, and sadly we do have examples of that in China and other dictatorships but again, that's a different topic.
In the meantime the way I know for sure that Steam didn't suppress the "freedom of speech" of these "devs" is that these games keep proliferating, and child pornography does get distributed and spread so they'll be fine and most likely will benefit from the publicity they got by announcing Steam didn't want their game.
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Parler is a bad example if you're trying to prove your point seeing as how it has been shut down by its hosting server and removed from all app store. Just so you know.
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It was just an example. 4chan is still up and running yeah? So let's go with that one :P
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I wasn't trying to be mean or anything XD I just wasn't sure if you had heard the news.
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Don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. My answer may have sounded flippant but I was just kidding.
Yeah I heard the news. I have a colleague who is not going to stop ranting about it for a couple of years probably lol
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"Yeah that's unsupported by data unfortunately and it remains wishful thinking. There are the same theories about violent pornography and rape perpetrators but again, no data or hard evidence, just hoping and wishing." Agreed. Well, so far, the number of kids playing videogames is clearly increasing, and the number of kids commiting serious violent crimes is decreasing
"You're talking about a possibility on a small percentage of people. We were talking about a specific group of violent offenders" I meant people convicted of assaults that were gamers.
"the idea that something could be uniformly banned by dozens, shit, hundreds of independent corporations is ludicrous and even if that happened, there would be dozens of sites rising just to do the opposite" You don't need hundred of independent corporations. Not anymore. You only need two or three at most. Hell, even if just Google and Apple team up, it's more than enough. Parler, the example you used. It was a social media company, it had a strong moderation team to avoid having trouble. Then it was accused of being of alt-right after the assault of US Congress. They said it wasn't true. Glenn Greenwald, the journalist that coordinated the uncovering of all the Edward Snowden information, published that not a single member of the people arrested by the assault of US congress used Parler. Still, it was kicked out and made as a non-entity by twitter, facebook, google, apple, visa and mastercard. They couldn't operate anymore, or even talk to their users. People couldn't download the app anymore. They couldn't get money to pay anywhere. It went from a growing company to nothing. And that was by just six companies.
"The only effective censorship can only come from government enforcement" Conservative people have been complaining for a long time that big tech is slowly shutting them down online. The biggest subreddit of Trump supporters, (and I have never supported him) was shut down. Trump, even while he was still president, was kicked from twitter, which he used to talk to his supporters. The European Union, themselves VERY far from being friendly to Trump, publicy said that they were worried how powerful Big Tech was, and how they were able to shut down anybody they wanted.
"In the meantime the way I know for sure that Steam didn't suppress the "freedom of speech" of these "devs" is that these games keep proliferating... so they'll be fine and most likely will benefit from the publicity they got by announcing Steam didn't want their game" When Hentai, all hentai, was banned from Australia, people said that it would actually help spread hentai by illegally downloading. But the fact is that hentai imports just disappeared in Australia. When videogame Devotion from a Taiwan's company was pulled from GOG and Steam by pressure of the chinese goverment and chinese users, people said that the attention would help the company. But the fact is, if you want the game, you can only import physically from Taiwan. That's basically killing the company.
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Well, so far, the number of kids playing videogames is clearly increasing, and the number of kids commiting serious violent crimes is decreasing
Oh that might be true for violence in games, I don't know. There are numerous studies about porn and recidivism in sexual offenders but I don't think there is a correlation that's been made between violence in games (and movies) and crime rates. But again, those are two different things. I don't know what make pedophiles do what they do but I doubt porn start the whole thing, just like video games are not the trigger with kids who go on a killing spree.
You don't need hundred of independent corporations. Not anymore. You only need two or three at most. Hell, even if just Google and Apple team up, it's more than enough.
Well, for sure, they already influence the way we talk about things so I don't even think they'd need to censor anything to get to that point.
As for Parler, I don't think it was about censorship so much as it was about social media platform growing a bit of a conscience regarding their role in shaping opinion after events like the Capitol events but I do take your point. The only two people I know who were using it are so extreme right wing that they were actually kicked out by the French Nationalist party because they made them look bad lol so I can't speak to that. I guess they'll still have reddit and Telegram so they're fine.
Conservative people have been complaining for a long time that big tech is slowly shutting them down online
I think complaining is what conservatives do best. And they call everyone else snowflakes :P
But seriously I don't know if it's about shutting people up or trying to maintain a civil discourse. I have seen a lot of twitter account closed that didn't belong to conservatives. I think it's naive of social networks to believe they can reign in the chaos they have created but after recent events, they are certainly going to keep trying, if only not to get in legal trouble for facilitating a coup.
I'd argue that being conservative and being a raging troll who spreads Qanon conspiracy theories and support political coups are two very different things but I am betting I know who is doing most of the complaining.
The European Union, themselves VERY far from being friendly to Trump, publicy said that they were worried how powerful Big Tech was, and how they were able to shut down anybody they wanted.
Heh the only thing the EU hates more than Trump is Big Tech. I sometimes think that Google will end up funding the EU with all the fines they are paying every year.
When videogame Devotion from a Taiwan's company was pulled from GOG and Steam by pressure of the chinese goverment and chinese users, people said that the attention would help the company. But the fact is, if you want the game, you can only import physically from Taiwan.
I'm not going to lie, the cultural influence of the Chinese government through the pressure they are putting on huge media companies by dangling their billions of consumers is getting a little scary. And I get how it's effectively censorship there, but again, it's China. It would take a massive revamping of the world to make that happen in the US or other free countries. Hell, if that didn't happen under Trump, it's pretty safe ;)
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Fictional pedophilia shouldn't be illegal just like fictional murder shouldn't be illegal
except it's illegal to view the act of pedophilia (aka child porn), but it isn't illegal to view the act of murder.
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I am not taking sides but this issue is not as simple as that.
While people don't have a problem indulging in actual underage sexual activity (if they are never found committing it), CP is made out to be much more serious offence than the actual commission.
Not to mention, our parents and grandparents who have had underage partners dating back to the beginning of human civilization (if we consider ourselves to be exception to this long running tradition).
Interesting Fact: Even Christopher Columbus in his journal has admitted that he and his crew mating with underage Indian nymphs. Why should a child abuser like him be glorified in history books?
Every single human feels attraction towards a particular gender when the beauty of the person is at its peak. Nature has hardwired all beings to be like this. You cannot legalize or illegalize something totally natural. Hell only a few decades ago even several movies from well known directors contained CP like content. How can you say that the underage actors were not 'hurt'? If it was recorded at that time and they were underage then doesn't it make all that stuff CP? If it is CP why should it be treated any differently from now? But then what about the artistic value of those movies?
Now if one talks about a person being hurt, it does not matter what age you are 10, 20, 30, 40 a person being hurt is a person being hurt. Age should never be a matter. Simply because a person reaches age of 18 or 21, it does not mean they can't be exploited. Rape and abuse occurs in real world to people of all ages and to both genders. If with this logic, all porn should be illegal and banned. Now, will anyone allow such a ban?
Then there is another problem, the law makers who make such laws are actually the ones who indulge in such activities most of the times.
It is as if all the laws pertaining CP are meant for the sheer purpose that they are not (accidently) caught participating in them.
All CP related stuff is government sponsored so are drugs and other things. Isn't it strange, that lion's share of the funding of the dark net browser is from government?
This world is full of hypocrites who criticize a particular stuff but secretly will do the same stuff at every single opportunity they get. If we really wish to solve this issue the real question we should ask is what are we? Are we a hypocrite or a fool idealist who lives in a make-believe world?
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You seem tired, so I won't argue...much, I mean.
But I have to say, technically, all porn is abuse.
It is encouraging people to engage in depraved sexual activity for money and almost always the pornstars do not comprehend the consequence of such sex it should be banned too. Have you considered, that many underage kids watch porn. And how a porn video of above 18 junkie pornstar different from that of a child? You won't find anyone complaining against them. Morality is very confusing issue.
What you're talking about here is a different beast. It's called ephebophilia, and it's the attraction to post-pubescent adolescents between the ages of 15 - 18. It is still problematic when the person interested is vastly older than the adolescent because it creates a power difference where the older partner controls the relationship and the younger partner is usually coerced into following along.
Now that you have mentioned ephebophilia, it is not so much of a gray area. And it is not 15-18 but rather 13-18 because it is a sexual orientation or preference in which an adults primary sexual attraction is towards pubescent or postpubescent adolescent. It is CP. Now just because a person is vastly older how can you say that there is a power difference where older partner controls the relationship? In real world, the power difference is not created not by the age but by the financial status.
And virgin old guys with just enough money to feed themselves can never abuse a teen partner as much as the teenagers who although may belong to the same age group are from extremely wealthy background and who change their partners like clothes.
Financial capacity and political influence and not the age is the factor which decides who dominates whom.
If we lived in ideal society, everybody would be a hermit living alone.
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I would have to disagree that all porn is abuse. If someone enjoys sexual activity, no matter how "depraved" it is, and they enjoy making money from it, then there isn't any abuse going on.
So, if an underage kid enjoys sexual activity no matter how "depraved" it is, and they enjoy making money from it, then there isn't any abuse going on?
Anyone at any age can be abused and anyone at any age can be abuser. Even kids can abuse people of much older age. It all depends upon the fact that who has the leverage.
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As this discussion has gone in .. I don't really know what direction .. I wanted to throw in my two cents about the porn and young people consent in filming in porn.
I agree with the fact that if they want to earn money by appearing in porn movies - it's up to anyone who wants to do it. But have you noticed what kind of porn gets uploaded ? It's mostly degrading stuff, some sick fetishes. Porn isn't a simple topic... It's not just - if they want they can do with their body what they want.
It has basically turned into rich guys using porn as an excuse to live their fantasies of rape and abuse by doing nothing illegal. Porn industry as such needs enourmos control over it in what is and what is not allowed. At this stage it's several high class pornstars who show their money around and how they have to do nothing but just fuck on camera, and young people get in it and are subjected to "either do this or you wont achieve more" khe khem Weinstein.. basically the same shit but not behind closed doors. And we are left with all the first timer innocent girls who get reeled in by promisis of money and end up as a playtoy for some sick in the head rich guy.
And I don't watch that sick porn, I do watch porn in general. I mean - most everyone does. BUT you can't even tiptoe around all that sick fetish porn if you don't specificilly choose to buy subscriptions to specific sites that make only one type of videos. Pornhub actually did awesome move by blocking and deleting all porn that's not made by certified accounts.
Porn has really turned into something that advocates abuse. It negatively affects underage people, sets an unrealistic standards in young boys. And I'm pretty sure if you would check sexual offenders what they do oon the internet - their history would be filled with rape and abuse videos. In my humble opinion porn should be banned as such, but that is unrealistic. I would compare it to alcohol and cigaretes.. they are all fine and legal and allow us to indulge in our vices, but you can't deny their negative impact in degradation of our society.
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As the person above me posted, I have a problem with murder. I would prefer any game where any living beings are murdered to be banned /s
Pedophilia? I would never, ever, play it myself. But, in all seriousness... It's a bunch of pixels. Why should I want to ban a punch of pixels? I would even prefer a person playing a game like that sitting in his room, instead of acting IRL.
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Not going to retype my answer to the other post lol but look, I get what you mean on principle but as we discussed before, Valve has a right to refuse to sell something.
If you own a movie theatre and some guy shows up with a fake snuff film. I have a right to say no thank you, take your stuff some place else. It's not censorship. I'm not the government. And as the devs themselves say, they'll sell their crap some other way. Steam is not suppressing their right to make money off scum sucking pervs, they are declining to make money off it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5s3jGiJOcE
Great and funny review of the first game.
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I already knew what video it was before opening, great taste.
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bad ass babes was taken off the market after a year and a policy change. apparently anime tits are fine but as soon as there real tits its wrong. the game had actual actors/strippers pictures taken and used as sprites. i got it as a joke game but i was actually surprised as to how good of a beat um up it really was.
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That's unfortunate, but kinda outside Valve's control.
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/gettingstarted/onboarding
"What you shouldn’t publish on Steam:
[...]
2 . Adult content which includes a visual depiction that requires age verification of an actual human being; see, for example, 18 U.S. Code § 2257. Link currently found here."
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More trash for the pile. They should remove all the ERO BS and get all of it off steam.
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That's one way to get people to want to buy your game I guess.
Your poll is missing the "is it real" option.
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i mean almost all sexual games got region blocked in germany ... even if it would be on steam we couldn't buy it ... i wouldn't buy it anyway but i must say i don't have a problem with sexual games on steam as long as they marked them correctly and have tags to ignore them for u18 and people that dont want those games
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Just a few were actually IP/store blocked. The huge amount which got "invisible" in December can still be bought by using sub links.
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To those that think this is an elaborate marketing ploy:
https://twitter.com/exzyleph/status/1359952745588023296?s=20
https://steamdb.info/app/1392380/history/
https://steamdb.info/app/1055130/history/
It (unfortunately) probably isn't.
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If they manage to do that without violating Steam's policies about rejected games, I will be thrilled.
That's maybe the best-case scenario, I hope it happens.
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I hope so. But there ar many games rejected that were never able to get admitted again
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What a damn shame. Not cool to see these things happen and it not being able to come to steam.
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https://twitter.com/Alicesoft_en/status/1360056506998116353
Game is officially not coming to Steam. While I can understand why Valve would reject it, I don't know their official stance on such matters.
I wish Alicesoft had tried to release a SFW version with an external NSFW patch, that has a better success rate from what I've gathered.
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