Should the punishment for not activating wins be changed?
My 2 cents :)
First Timer - 7 days * Guys do not read rules :)
Second BAN untill he activates his wins.
Edit Bonus :)
We need pop-up message when new user will check his key for first time to tell him active game or he get banned :)
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+1
i can forgive a first offense, because we're all only human. but after that, you definitely know the rules and need to abide by them.
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I would say second time: perma... no questions ask.
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+1 for this. Everyone should read the rules, but knowing people, everyone can make a mistake. But repeating the same mistake they got punished for is not normal.
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That would be the best solution, I hate to see members with 3 or more not activated wins still winning games here.
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+1 Yes this is very reasonable. First as a warning, and then, not allowing to enter or win any other game if games already won aren't activated.
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i wouldn't be here with your rule, i had 2 unactivated wins which meant 2 suspensions in a row.
i wouldn't had cared at all and forgotten about this place if i wasn't able to come back.
and i know i can't be the only case like this.
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LOL and you have the best ratio in this chain of comments by a long shot ...
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To prevent this we need pop-up message when new user will check his key for first time to tell him active game or he get banned :)
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I was thinking about making similar thread, but since you already made one - I can as well write my thoughts here.
I don't think that it matters how severe is the punishment. What matters is it's effectiveness. And the problem is the rule itself (when you want to ask for a re-roll). The other guy (you know who - that's the reason for this thread I think xD) was partially right. About that "30 days" part. I talked with some people and many - even if they check somebody and see not activated wins - send their key anyway because infraction was committed longer than 30 days ago.
How to fix it? Remove that "30 days part". First of all - stuff doesn't respect it and gives suspensions even if not activated wins were registered years ago (so the rule is fake anyway). Second - some people think that if they are not caught fast enough - they can do what they want. And most important - that rule makes people think that checking their winners for breaking rules is a waste of time.
Other thing is that maybe we should have somewhere in guidelines something about checking your winners. Some people don't care. Some people are pissed off when you ask them to let you check their private profiles and point out that there is no mention anywhere that ga creator should check their winners.
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+1 for deleting the bad ticket system "in the last 30 days" wording
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Well the reason for this post is not only him but also a few other people and some of them acting proud that They did win a game but later looked at the gameplay and didn't like the game so they sold it "because they won't have shit games on their account."
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Increasing punishment for first infraction would be overkill, but I like the idea posted by of ZlyOrg.
Current system needs polishing for sure :)
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How to fix it? Remove that "30 days part".
That would help as well.
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You misunderstand.
1) If a user has failed to activate a win, that is grounds for suspension.
2) If a user has already been suspended for failing to activate a specific win, and that suspension was less than 30 days ago, that is grounds for a re-roll.
3) If a user has already been suspended for failing to activate a specific win, and that suspension was more than 30 days ago, that user is no longer barred from winning a giveaway.
As a side-note, the normal, five-day suspension for non-activation is applied for the first offense. Additional infractions carry stiffer penalties, up to and including a permaban.
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Also, when are you planning to do a perma-ban?
It depends upon the situation. You seem to be under the impression that Support is aware of every person who has failed to activate a win, or that those with multiple inactivations have been punished multiple times. The reality is something else. When we do come across someone who has committed multiple infractions, we deal with it appropriately.
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So are you telling me that 10 unactivated wins is not a situation that deserves perma-ban?
Well - there is quite a lot of users one the site and not many support members. The only way they can react to rule breaker is when somebody reports them. If user with 10 unactivated wins is caught - and this is first time that he/she is caught - then it counts as first offence. Ofc such person wont get 5 days suspension but maybe 50 days or something... But if that person gets caught again... Then punishment will be more harsh.
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So are you telling me that 10 unactivated wins is not a situation that deserves perma-ban
Someone never read the rules and haven't activate 10 games is no worse than someone who won 1. They both ltierally don't know that they did something wrong. We could make that better by making FAQ and rules mandatory to read (and present it in multiple languages), make users checking their winners simpler and do it on-site, or magically make support have 72 hour long days and the ability to check every active user daily (or at least weekly).
IMO it's more of a problem that it's hard to find someone with any unactivated wins than not having a harsh enough punishment. Even support can only rely on some users doing the check manually, with SGTools or SGTools script. (Also majority of the users never read the forum so they don't even know about these options)
Sadly the situation is heavily stacked against support, and getting people caught
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So are you telling me that 10 unactivated wins is not a situation that deserves perma-ban?
It depends upon the situation. Are you truly unable to imagine a circumstance where someone could rack up ten non-activations, get caught, and still be given a second chance to do what is right? Or to imagine a circumstance where a person has only failed to activate a win twice, but has done so in a manner that demands permaban? Each case is taken, investigated, judged, and vetted individually. I do not understand why you seem so intent on shoving the incomprehensibly complex myriad of human individuality into a one-size-fits-all box.
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10 unactivated wins = it depends on the situation which punishment will be taken ? o_O
Sorry i don't understand at such cases all other reactions as "perma suspension TILL the user activate that games at his account OR handled it with a ticket to speak about the reason for it".
And i don't see a reason for 10 not activated wins, besides that the steam api give errors at that time, that you can't fix. If you "deleted" the games from your library you can restore them (that is the only reason i would consider as fitting for a "mistake" in combination with 10 unactivated wins).
Sorry for me sound, nearly all, your answers today as you experience a complete different steamgifts the last 2 years. Complete different rule breakers.
And i get the feeling as i know more about the rule breakers as you.
And trust me that is something that feels VERY wrong.
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Sorry i don't understand ...
It seems like you did here.
... as you experience a complete different steamgifts the last 2 years.
Over the past two years, there have been changes to the rules, changes to the SG site, changes in Support staff, changes in user base, and changes in the Moderation guidelines. I would not be surprised to find the experience has also changed.
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You seem to be under the impression that Support is aware of every person who has failed to activate a win,
Why isn't there an automated system that checks for people who have failed to activate wins ?
Steamgifts knows what we have won. It knows what games we have (ok, it doesn't know about DLC). If a Steam account doesn't have a won game after a reasonable period, that means it wasn't activated.
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Why isn't there an automated system that checks for people who have failed to activate wins
Because Steam api is far from perfect. False positives are be generated by:
- dlc
- steam is learning about this game
- game no longer on steam store
- couple of weird packages
- steam glitching out xD
And some more I don't remember. Automatic system would generate more work and problems that support would be able to solve xD
Was it today? But steam was showing for some users only f2p games in their library. Checking myself in sg tools showed me 300 unactivated wins xD And all of that were false positives because steam f**ked up xD
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Those problems seem manageable:
- Have the system do nothing unless someone fails to have the game for every check over a time period. Long enough for any errors to be resolved.
- If a game is generating errors over a longer period, exclude it from the automatic checking.
- Once it's then time to do something, flag the user for investigation by Steamgifts staff.
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Once it's then time to do something, flag the user for investigation by Steamgifts staff.
When steam glitches out randomly - system would generate flags for every win that day xD
Sometimes you have to wait one week for simple re-roll because there is not enough support members. Imagine if they would have to check hundreds or thousands new tickets daily.
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That's why the system shouldn't flag anyone unless they show as not having a won game for every check done over a decent time period. If the game shows as owned even once during that time, nothing happens.
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Just a quick question right now SgTools isn't working is there another way to check my winner? Since it's encourage by support for giveaway's creators to check their winners, shouldn't they be a way to do it without using another site?
Edit: SgTools seems to be working again but my question stand just for curiosity's sake:)
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If sgtools don't work you were forced to check the winners games and his wins manual = in the end impossible for all games if the user won 20+... or say "too much work" and send the win blindly.
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That's exactly my point, I'm perfectly happy to check my winner and help keep the site running but many users have many hundred wins. I'm certainly not going to check that many games manually. Since we are ask to check our winners I always wondered why there wasn't a way to do it within SG.
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The "default" method is to check the person's Steam library for the game. This does not work for the DLC, however, and other methods are needed.
The question about "a way to check without using another site" brings up other questions: "What should be the limit of privacy for SG users?" and "How much information about an SG user should be made public?" These are difficult questions to answer.
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And in the last, over, 2 years would be that questions answered in extremst details if cg were really willing to change the, used, system.
Because this don't happened the last years, it looks for me like nitpicking to come now around with that "important and difficult questions".
The GA creators don't need more infos as sgtools checks give. And that infos don't needed to be "public", only access needed for the GA creator to check the winner(s) if that is easier to handle/better for the privacy. I don't see why it should be needed to have higher standards as sgtools right now.... but that would be a easy thing IF needed
So a lot of that "important privacy question" stuff is complete nonsense.
And you said the support have better tools, so maybe a "light version" of that "support tools" for the GA creators to check their winners would be a option too.
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I think you kind of missed my point. But lets talk about those 3 points you mentioned.
1 - agree. Nothing to discuss here.
2 - this doesn't make sense. So user was suspended. That's already a punishment. Why agree for a reroll if user is no longer suspended? I understand reroll if user is currently suspended and can't receive key/mark it as received (in situation where he/she won ga before receiving suspension), but in situation where suspension ended (5 days for example) - this is stretching punishment time for whole 30 days - because even if that user wins - creator can ask for a reroll and get it granted (and that is unfair if that user got message that punishment will be 5 days long).
3 - this is not what I see when I ask for a re-roll.
Seriously. Beside point 1 - any of those are stated clearly in any faq, rules, guideliness? Have I encountered invisible rules again?
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There are many repercussions to being "caught." Suspension is only one possible consequence.
As for the Guidelines, they are there to outline proper behavior on the site.
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As for the Guidelines, they are there to outline proper behavior on the site.
And you avoided answering my question. Rules are rules. You have to state them clearly and write them down. Otherwise it's just good or bad will of support member. This is one of the problem that was touched many times on forums and was never fully fixed. Imaginary rules, unwritten rules, common sense rules.
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@76561198082881386
I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're say, but just in case I am.
To go through to see if they have activate it is all fine and dandy, until you have given out 50+ copies of the same game in the giveaway, then that's a task.
Or make an agreement once a month pop-up, stating you understand the consequences of not activating the game on your account.
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until you have given out 50+ copies of the same game
If you are referring to the fact that in 50+ copies giveaways keys are sent automatically - then it's problem indeed. But - it can be fixed quite easy.
Or make an agreement once a month pop-up, stating you understand the consequences of not activating the game on your account.
That will be once a month clicked without reading by everybody.
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Some people are pissed off when you ask them to let you check their private profiles and point out that there is no mention anywhere that ga creator should check their winners.
As far as I am aware, refusal to verify non-ownership of the game won is sufficient grounds for a re-roll. Just include documentation (i.e. evidence).
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Is it written down somewhere? No.
Never had re-roll granted in such case.
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I have been suspended 3 times for the same unactivated game from 2013, last time in around august, and told if I somehow dont get it ill be banned forever. I think the system work as it should
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I find that hard to believe. An unactivated win is dealt with once and then doesn't count any more.
Apart from being a +1 should the number continue to rise.
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Well I activated everything and the suspension message called out for the same game again and again, maybe its just doesnt register in the database or something. I'm fairly certain ill be forver banned because of it in the future, when someone issue a ticket to a mod about it again
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I find that hard to believe too.
I know that, at least in all other cases that i know, reports for stuff that got punished before aren't punished again.
So write the support to clear why you got punished 3x for the same thing. Because thats not how the rules work.
Mostly i hate that they don't work that way :-D by all the users i see with 4+ not activated wins... :o(
In your case it sounds, from your words, different.
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I just consider this whole ordeal as a hazard in this place at this point. I know the end is inevitable and every day is a blessing. As for contacting support, I dont think it would solve anything other than making a giant target on myself with it, as I am pretty low on the steamgift food chain and many consider me just a leech
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You should try messaging a different mod or cg as to how you can be punished multiple times for the same infraction. That shouldn't happen.
A non-activation will still be flagged on sgtools or whatever but once dealt with it is done.
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Have you considered activating the games you received? It should do the trick I guess.
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Out of 500+ wins I did not activated 1 (+1 that was some sort of beta and I didnt realised then) and it was from the first months of my activity on this site. At this point I'm better at waiting for a steam sale and collect 100-200 card for trading of it.
Jeez this chain of talking getting really long, I dont want my problems to occupy half the page when people want to discuss the actual issue
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For future reference, I would encourage you to do the following:
1) Do not mark a game "received" unless and until the proper game is showing up in your Steam library.
2) If you have any non-activated games, activate them at your earliest opportunity. Yes, even five years later.
3) If you have questions or concerns regarding how Support has handled an issue, file a ticket. We are human, and we check each other's work. If you truly feel that the issue has been resolved or is no longer consequential, feel free to close the ticket. Otherwise, it is usually best to leave it open.
Looking at your account, I currently see no grounds for a permaban, That is not something you should be expecting, nor is it "inevitable."
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If you got given a beta key instead of the real game and mistakenly marked it as received because you didn't know the rule yet, you could always file a ticket for change of feedback and explain the situation in your ticket. Not sure how mod would handle it in this case but you lose nothing trying it just so you can have it off you account.
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That giveaway was from 2012, the second one I won in this site, I think I just let it gather dust, since I already sit the time about it
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Don't get me wrong i see you as a leecher too BUT that make no difference at the rules.
They must be the same for everyone.
If you got a punishment for a rule break it is "solved". It isn't ok to get more as one punishment for the same case.
After your words i checked now http://www.sgtools.info/nonactivated/SASsoldat and dont see only 1 not activated win, i see 3.
Maybe are that the reason why 3 punishments ?
I am not sure if you known that site to check yourself, so i hope it will help you to avoid problems in the future.
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I didnt mentioned the suspension about the shoot many robots one because I know thats a legit one, but the 3 suspension was all about the section 8 game. Also thank you for showing this as I didnt knew I have problems with Wish, as it activated on my library without an issue and I dont understand why its there on the list
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SGTools has its own limitations. Support has access to better tools. Having your Steam account set to private makes verification of your account problematic, not impossible.
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Wish is not detected by Steam ( Steam is learning about this game" and SGTools generates it as a false positive. Seen it on your profile and posted about it to the owner of SGTools. The report about the missing game will be gone as he'll get around to add it to the exclusion list.
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Wish is a false positive, I just reported it to knsys in the SGTools topic
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Well quick checking shows that problem is that all of your wins looks like not activated on Steam as it says you have 1,454 games but when I click on it it shows only 13 so...
maybe you get reports and suspensions because you hide your games and GA can't check if you have the game or not.
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Thats strange, everything is supposed to be public and I'm not intentionally hiding anything. But you are right now im checking it and for some reason its only show source mods and tf2
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I have just done it, thank your for pointing this out, while its not related to my steamgift problem it had a potential to become a big one in the future.
Edit: Also I just checked your's and it shows you only have alien swarm as the only game I see, maybe its a steam problem
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It looks like some kind of bug on Steam that only shows free games now.
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You were suspended for 3 different games. Users are never suspended twice for the same inactivated win.
Just go to this page and see what's written there. Also check your unsuspend tickets.
And yes, looks like Steam is bugged now as it shows you own only ~30 games
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That page only show 2 suspension and surprisingly none of the suspensions that I'm talking about. Is it a possibility that the person issueing the suspension can delete the traces of the suspension to cover itself? Im not going to rat out the person (because thats bannable offense too), but for evidence about myself, I have the unsuspend request still around (only one as the other I just waited out) and I wouldnt start to have a meltdown for 14 days if nothing have happened in that timespan
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I wrote you should check your tickets as well.
First suspension was deleted, as creator deleted giveaway you won (as it was their mistake you get suspended). So reason to keep you suspended disappeared.
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That is an entierly different one which I dont even mention because it ended up peacefully. I'm talking about the one between 2019 april 17-28 and the one which I dont know the timespan because I dont have the unsuspend ticket for that one but I think it was a year or so before it. Is there a way not to spam this thread and discuss it privately?
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You did not list for what you were wrongly suspended, nor made screenshots (unless you did, then you can create ticket about it). And there is nothing additional on your suspension page. So it's hard to guess what happened. But you surely were not suspended "3 times for the same unactivated game from 2013".
The only explanation to being suspended twice for the same thing would be:
- remove game from library
- gets suspended
- restores game
- suspension is deleted
- game is removed again
- support member notices missing win again
If you have any proof that someone from support randomly suspends / unsuspends you - you should write ticket about it and it would be forwarded to site admin.
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I deleted the pictures about it in december thinking I wont do anything with them(what a mistake that was :/) but if they are nonexistant (the suspensions) anymore that means the whole threat of removing me randomly is null too.
This whole thing now start to make me look like a bufoon and I wasted so much space in this thread I feel bad about it not to talk about the blacklists. I did not do any tricks with the game that would warrant multiple suspensions though. I just conclude it as an error in the system both times and now that I ran my mouth about it now, hopefully it wont get used against me again
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I made a similar suggestion before. And nothing changed. But still worth another try, maybe I'm just worded it poorly.
Ban until the missing game activated is better for everyone, including the rule breaker. Because this way their mistake is fixed, and they won't get blacklisted/filtered by sgtools in the future.
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I also think, that the account should be suspended until all wins are activated, but the rule would have to allow to deal with some special cases, when the game in question is no longer obtainable.
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Why people believe that "game is no longer obtainable" is an excuse? Just think about it - what if some generous user purchases " no longer obtainable" game from a collector for 2000$ and gives it away on SG. Winner does not activate it, just sells it for 2k$ instead. And... he is forgiven, because hey, game can't be obtained, poor guy can't fix his mistake, he deserves a second chance... Do you really think this is appropriate approach? Have you thought what the hypothetical generous user will feel, knowing that his hard-acquired gift was sold and the violator just forgiven? Ok, ok, not forgiven, suspended for THE WHOLE FIVE DAYS!
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Basically this! it's their own fault for not following the rules, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it JUST because he can no longer get the game.
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I had rather in mind "a full CV game of at least the same value from the top 50 wishlisted games" as a replacement, than "the whole 5 days" ban ;)
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If you don't value your 2000$ collector item enough to give some random guy on the internet, i don't think you have a word what will they do with it. Also probably for the %90 percent of users, taking 2000$ cash is way more worth more than an account here. That example is a bit extreme imho.
I know you are trying to prove a point but come on...
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The example is an exaggeration of course, but the point stays the same - if for someone their account here worth less than replacing the game they won, why do we have to make an exception for them? It's their decision that they don't want an account after all.
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And what about the other extreme? What if it was a worthless game and an honest mistake by a new member, The guy wants to start using the site again way later, but the game he didn't activate in the past as a newcomer is not available for purchase anywhere anymore. You basically suggest that he gets banned for life.
The current system doesn't allow users to indefinetely sell/regift their wins (contrary to what some people here seem to believe). If it happens a few times, they will be warned (and get extended suspension time), and if it then happens again they can (and will) be perma-banned, until they activate all wins.
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I know what you want to say but...
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/6Uei4/suggestion-sg-rule-change-not-activating-wins#fMAiEZQ
+
The current system punish harder for not activated wins infractions as years ago. Thats positive BUT it is still "a joke" when you see how many "bad apples" are around, from the old rules with 4-8 infractions and the new ones with lesser ammounts + the ones that have up to 44 not activated wins (the highest caught user that i reported had 36 not activated wins collected in 4 years...) and be around because none checked them before..., and when you realize that the ones that get caught can theoretical, after 3 or 4 suspensions, lift there perma suspension with activating all wins (= trade/buy them somewhere).
It doesn't feel right. In no way.
It feels as all honest users invest a lot of time into catching the bad apples, as the support invest then a lot of time with the checks and then happen nearly nothing.
Thats not a scary example for other people that they should NOT to it.
It feel more like a invite to break the activation rule and create then only a new account, used with a VPN and so on, IF the first got caught after years.
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If someone has 36 unactivated wins, it's obvious that he/she is gaming the system and should definitely be banned... perma even. If they do manage to activate all those unactivated wins, then they can always request for an appeal and support can then decide whether to let them back in on a case-to-case basis. Though, frankly speaking, 36 is really a lot.
However, like Masafor has said, if the offender knows that he/she will only get caught years after winning games and not activating them, then it would likely motivate them to use whatever means necessary to get back on SG even after their first account was perma-banned.
That said, if that really happens, there's nothing much SG or us as a community can do. We all just need to be more vigilant and be on the lookout of these kind of SG users.
And I have to keep reminding myself to check winners before sending the key >.<
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Don't get me wrong. The one with 36 not activated wins were perma suspended BUT can come back if he buy/trade all the needed games to activate them at his account AND that example of my own experiences shows that a lot of users caught very late. 4 years breaking the rules with full intention, till someone is caught, is much too long and why did such a user have the, theoretical, possibility to come back ?
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I agree. I wasn't aware that someone who was perma-banned could return to SG if they activated all those unactivated wins. I thought being perma-banned is pretty much permanent.... unless they use unscrupulous means to return to SG such as via VPN and a new account.
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I prefer someone who did a honest mistake (still their fault!) got punished than system abused by someone who pretends that it was a honest mistake. If there is a special case that allows to bypass the rule - it will be abused, no exceptions. And, in my opinion, if punishment for rare and worthless games is more harsh (or more like, looks like more harsh, since it's literally the same) - it's a correct approach. Someone who don't appreciate worthless gift is worse than someone who don't appreciate common gift.
Current system allows abuse to a certain degree (at least I've seen users with 30+ not activated games, still not perma-banned). System with requirement to activate the game to be unbanned will be less prone to abuse, and in the same time innocent people won't be affected by this change at all. So I believe that's a good change.
And, on top of it, there is still a workaround. If the game is now worthless, this user may contact giveaway creator and ask them to remove the giveaway in question, suggest some replacement instead, or maybe just steal their wife and blackmail them.
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Then we simply disagree here. I see punishment as a necessary evil. It should only be applied if really necessary, and it should always be fair and never bee intentionally too harsh just to prevent certain habits.
Current system allows abuse to a certain degree (at least I've seen users with 30+ not activated games, still not perma-banned).
Well, I check a lot of users when doing reroll requests. I believe I personally have never seen anyone with that many non-activated games. I have seen a lot of people, though, who were actually banned after repeated offenses. So I really believe cases as extreme as you describe are the absolute exception. I have seen cases where people "accidentially" got a lot of unactivated gifts, though. Like people who deleted shovelware from their account.
System with requirement to activate the game to be unbanned will be less prone to abuse, and in the same time innocent people won't be affected by this change at all. So I believe that's a good change.
Well, I believe a user should not be banned on the first offense. The current system will ban him after repeated offenses, and I find that fair. I will say, though, that it's certainly not good that some users can "get away with it" for quite some time, until they are checked by support. An automated periodical check would be nice, I guess.
If the game is now worthless, this user may contact giveaway creator and ask them to remove the giveaway in question
It can be hard to contact the giveaway creator if you are banned and have no access to the giveaway page.
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Then we simply disagree here. I see punishment as a necessary evil.
We really disagree, but in another point. I don't see this as a punishment. I just believe that honest person has to fix their mistakes. I once won a game and accidentally activated it on second account (was logged in to another account in steam client and forgot about it). Good news - it was from ongoing bundle. Bad news - I was pretty short on money (that's why I haven't just purchased the bundle in the first place). I bought the bundle and activated the game on my account, and still was ashamed that I wasted good game that was given to me for free. I really believe that, even after I activated this game on my account, I did bad, and wasn't punished for it. And if it was some really rare game - even more so, it would be terrible to waste something so rare just because of my own stupidity. And no, even then I won't consider it a punishment, more like a justice.
I believe I personally have never seen anyone with that many non-activated games.
I did. Reported him twice (he got more unactivated wins before the second time). Ticket closed, person still not banned. It was long ago though, and it seems he is not using the site anymore, but it's still a great illustration of how system works.
Well, I believe a user should not be banned on the first offense.
I don't suggest that! Even more, I believe user should not be banned even at 100th offense... as long as he fixed their mistake. It's not about punishment, it's about forgiveness. And to be forgiven person need to repent first, and fix their mistake. If someone did 100 mistakes but fixed every mistake they made - this person is as good for me as someone who never made any mistake.
It can be hard to contact the giveaway creator if you are banned and have no access to the giveaway page.
Incorrect. Giveaway is listed in your "won" page, and this page is accessible without logging in to the site.
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I did. Reported him twice (he got more unactivated wins before the second time). Ticket closed, person still not banned. It was long ago though, and it seems he is not using the site anymore, but it's still a great illustration of how system works.
Then that was a mistake from Support. But that's not how it always goes.
I don't suggest that! Even more, I believe user should not be banned even at 100th offense... as long as he fixed their mistake. It's not about punishment, it's about forgiveness. And to be forgiven person need to repent first, and fix their mistake. If someone did 100 mistakes but fixed every mistake they made - this person is as good for me as someone who never made any mistake.
Forgive me (pun intended), but your original post didn't sound like you were that forgiving. You clearly implied certain offenders don't deserve forgiveness or a second chance. But anyway, I like this approach better. I agree it should be about forgiveness. I just think we don't necessarily need to force people to fix their mistake on the first offense. Since, as we discussed earlier, there are actually cases where that might not be so simple.
I think the current approach is acutallly pretty fair for both sides. The only problem I see is that users are only checked if they get into the spotlight for some reason, like a reroll request. And that leads to extreme cases like you have described with 30+ unactivated gifts. That should not happen. I think a good idea would be an automated, periodical check, and flagged users could then be flagged and checked by support members (to avoid false positives by the algorithm). Something like that.
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I just think we don't necessarily need to force people to fix their mistake on the first offense.
Well, that's where we disagree.
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One addition, different support members told us in the past that they don't have a better way to contact cg as we normal members.
So maybe none of the staff are able to "inform him" about the result here.
Let's hope he read the thread and think about it
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Results seem to be quite clear. At least I bought the game I didn't activate by mistake myself later when I figured out it had happened.
But the recent post saying you can get 300+ BL in 1-2 days for that makes me kind of regret it.
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If we would have "ultimate" punishment for someone who does not activate win, then we should have counterpart on creator's side to balance things out.
So if creator gives different game and tells winner to mark giveaway as received - they should also be permanently suspended till they deliver right game, so winner can activate it and lift their suspension. Now we don't have any punishment (apart from maybe not received feedback, which does not mean much most of the time) for the creator, while their action may result in someone's straight permanent suspension.
Just my thought.
For me there is difference when winner gets won game and deliberately and not activate it. Versus when they receive different key and are asked to mark giveaway as received, or do it to be polite "as they get something for free, so why punish creator".
Right now they can simply wait few days and continue to use the site knowing they can't accept different game. In "permanent suspension till activated" scenario winner loses everything, and "cheating" creator loses nothing.
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Good that you brought it up because it wasn't in the focus but i am very sure the poll and this thread is about "recieved a game and not activated it at the account" and not about the rarer case of "recieved a other game as promised and can't activate it as the promised game".
Why did the winner loose all when he is able to click "not recieved" after get a wrong game key ?
It is first a problem if he click recieved after got a wrong key.
And i am sure then it is possible to have a ticket system with a "unsuspend turbo request because of got wrong game and clicked at recieved".
And a solution would be:
FIRST not activated win = 5-7 days suspension
ALL after that = suspension till ALL games are owned at that account.
So a new user that make a mistake aren't hit by a bulldozer but all that repeating the "not activated wins" behavior get suspended very fast and not as at the moment after ~4 years
We both know that i made/make a lot of reports and we both know that i better not make statistics how much infractions, how many users, how many time till they get perma suspended and so on.
Lets make it easier for us all and say it takes much too much time and too much work from GA creators and support members till "the bad apples" i would call it HORDES get perma suspended.
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the poll and this thread is about "recieved a game and not activated it at the account" and not about the rarer case of "recieved a other game as promised and can't activate it as the promised game".
Problem is we do not differentiate suspensions between "deliberately not activate win" and "get another game". Both users will receive the same suspension. Unless we'd have two separate rules about it.
And i am sure then it is possible to have a ticket system with a "unsuspend turbo request because of got wrong game and clicked at recieved".
That would require change in the site code, not only how rules are written. And changes to site code takes a long time to be implemented.
Also you must remember how support works depends how much time we have. Now request new winner category takes around one day to be approved. Wait few weeks and queue will be week long.
So any "instant perma suspension with turbo unsuspend" would mean that sometimes winner is wrongly suspended for a long time. We need always confirm winner really received different game, not only that they say they did. And it is sometimes problematic with non-english speakers.
FIRST not activated win = 5-7 days suspension
ALL after that = suspension till ALL games are owned at that account.
You mean "first being caught" and "all after that". Makes little sense to suspend someone with 1 inactivated win for 5 days, and permanent suspension for someone with 2 inactivated, when both are caught for the first time.
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Sorry bad worded.
Yes i mean the first time CAUGHT and got a suspension for it = 5-7 days suspension
and then all other times caught AGAIN for not activate a win = perma suspension
But it should give a limit because first time caught with 6 - 44 (the last is a real number from the highest i seen at a report from a friend) not activated wins should not get only a 5-7 suspension and in my oppinion NOT a second chance too.
OR combine it with the time since they are active at sg.
Someone with 5 years and many entered GA's can't say he don't know the rules.
Sure thats possible but his own fault. Such ones should not be touched with the softest gloves. Rules aren't written only to have work... they should be read too ;o)
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We have one saying - ignorance of the law is no excuse. ;)
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But it should give a limit because first time caught with 6 - 44 (the last is a real number from the highest i seen at a report from a friend) not activated wins should not get only a 5-7 suspension and in my oppinion NOT a second chance too.
Back when I was "just" a user I reported someone with 100 inactivated. And they were unsuspended some time later. They had to remove games, be perma suspended, restore games, be unsuspended. And I really disliked this :P
But being a support member, and reading about all problems that can arise on both creator and winner end (which I did not even think about before) did give me a bit of distance and perspective.
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Well that is a good point.
I'm still waiting to be removed from a GA that I did win but got a dupe key as GA creator wrote that he created a ticket to remove me from this GA so I won't have that not received win on my account.
And I'm still nervous about the games I won that said <game name> for Beta Testing as I'm never sure if this is good key from developers or if it will just disappear with time or when games get out from EA. But well if they disappear worst case is I will have to buy them on Steam I guess?
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I'm still waiting to be removed from a GA that I did win but got a dupe key as GA creator wrote that he created a ticket to remove me from this GA so I won't have that not received win on my account.
If it's one copy giveaway then it will be shorter, as we will process it when we have both creator ticket and winner's permission. If it is multi-copy giveaway... it may take weeks as it needs to be done by Super Moderator. And they always have a lot on their plate.
If creator does not create ticket - then feedback needs to be changed. Which is again work for Super Moderator.
But well if they disappear worst case is I will have to buy them on Steam I guess?
You can either buy game on your own, or submit ticket to change feedback (SM work again). We try to keep track of all removed / revoked games so you should be safe while waiting for SM action. But there may be support member unaware of some revocation, that will wrongly suspend you.
But from what I remember games with "for beta testing" tag were simply activated with keys generated before game was released. So they should stay in the library infinitely. And risk of them being revoked is as big as any other batch of keys.
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Thank you for all the info :) It made things clear :)
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And I'm still nervous about the games I won that said <game name> for Beta Testing
I got one in trading, vanished a few months later.
Dishonor on you, dishonor on your cow, trader!
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Yeah this happened to me while i was fairly new here. I won a giveaway and key didn't work then creator asked me to get another game instead. I thought this was an honest mistake so I thought it was polite to accept and mark as recieved. Up until this point i have already read FAQ and kinda active through discussions. So activating "a game" is the part that i misunderstood. I saw it on a message at some topic that i should activate that spesific game. Then i asked what are my options to deal with that with a topic. But i know myself, if i had been suspended until i activate correct game i wouldn't do it. I was just using this place to dump my extra keys, i could do it anywhere.
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Don't be ridiculous.
In case if someone took the key/gift and not activated it on their account - giveaway creator loses said key/gift, and that is unfair and needs to be fixed.
In case if giveaway creator was unable to provide the key - nobody lost nothing. Well, maybe only points they spent to enter giveaway, so only thing you can propose as a counterpart - is returning of points to (all entrants or only to winner, dunno what is better) if giveaway was marked as not received. But it will need to be not-reversible to prevent abuse, and that does not sound right.
The only case where your suggestion seems legitimate - is the case when giveaway creator didn't provided the key/gift at all, so thta it's clear that it was intentional. For this case yes, perma-suspend until key is provided seems good idea to keep trolls at bay.
Right now they can simply wait few days and continue to use the site knowing they can't accept different game. In "permanent suspension till activated" scenario winner loses everything, and "cheating" creator loses nothing.
They can in this case file a ticket and explain situation. If "asked to mark giveaway as received" case took place it won't be hard to prove that they are innocent, and get unsuspended. And in worst-case scenario - they don't lose "everything", they just need to buy one game. If they entered the GA it's probably the game they wanted anyway, so not a big deal.
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To be honest, I also got ban for not activating my first wins (was new here and i used steamcompanion where was no problem with not-activating wins). But when i got ban, i felt stupid and bought those games (it was something small and not so much expensive) and that was my punishment. But i know I am exceptions and there are a lots of people, who have not-activated games and dont care. So i would sugget ban until they activate those games.
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I would also like to vote on changing current rule. IMHO current rules are not that effective at all.
I still think, having them activate the non-activated wins would be more effective.
Similar suggestions always get a counter argument, such as what if game is not purchasable or obtainable?
Ok fine some earlier games are gone from the market now, but what you have to understand is even if a game is removed from steam, it still can be found in other marketplaces at least for a time being (at least a year, I think). And one year for rectifying violations or mistake is enough I guess.
To reach the middle ground for both sides:
- Set a date and time for new rule: Rule stating users found with non-activated wins, wont be able to join GA, until all their wins are registered in their steam account.
- Non-activated wins for the GA that are created after the introduction of new rule will be subjected to new change.
- Non-activated wins for the GA that were created before the introduction of new rule will be subjected to current rule (someone might genuinely not be able to purchase older games)
I still think games just don't vanish overnight, there will still be a chance to purchase said game in various marketplace.
Whether you have to purchase it at full price, or sell your trading cards, csgo keys, it's the issue you have to face for creating your own problem by not reading the Shiny Warning Message that comes with your Lovely Gift ;)
I would also like to suggest CG, to create a small pop-quiz that new users much pass. Very simple ones Yes/No,True/False ones that consists of SG's basic rules like
You are allowed to gift the game you won on SG to your friend. True/False
You can activate your game any steam account. Yes/No
Just like the quiz from "The Internship: red-paddle/green-paddle questions. Create a set of very basic questions, randomly ask 8-10 questions after registering, allow user full access after they have successfully completed quiz with at least 65-70% correct answers.
This will help the user to be more familiar with the most basic rules that they must follow, instead of blindly doing their thing and being caught up on things that they didn't even know(or didn't even read about), and realizing their mistakes later.
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Looks on people that install Google Chrome, Opera, Avast, Comodo in one go while clicking "Next" in default set up mode of some junk on the internet
Yeah, it will work!
But in all seriousness I have e-learning at work with A - D quiz answer format. And there are people that were randomly guessing answers till they passed... in english quiz in english speaking country.
With quiz like that people would randomly press answers till they pass, or share answers on forums. They would still not understand the rules in the end.
Idea is not bad, but people are the problem :blobevil:
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Well, we have this movie database site where you have to make quiz to be able to comment on those movies. If you don't pass and you really want write commentaries, you have to write few long reviews which have to get approved by the moderators, after that you are allowed to participate on the site.
Not saying it's any solution for SG though, just sharing experience. ;)
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Easy solution... sort the users out that don't want to read the rules.
None have the RIGHT to use this site (or any other) if he don't fullfill requirements.
If the "read and follow the rules" are a req. (that is it for me at each site, discord, group that i join) then it is my own fault if i don't do it. And when i come 3 years later with "i haven't read the rules" then OWN FAULT.
It's not always smart to masticate [for young]/to chew for all, they need to learn to be responsible for what they do.
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I know what you are saying.
There is a solution. Clicking just next wont do, sharing or searching on forum is more time consuming than just passing the quiz.
- Create 50-60 questions or even more covering the most required/important rules to be followed, same question different wording, and randomize the questions for each user.
- Don't give the solution right after they answer. First ask all the questions one by one (10 is enough I think). Then, if certain requirement is met, say like 65-70% right answer, give the solution along with highlited wrong answer they chose.
- If failed restart the quiz. Some may disagree with me on this one, but know this, it is the reason why I said make a simple question regarding most important rules of SG in just yes/no or true/false questions. We are not trying to run a competition, we are trying to educate new users how the site works.
Even though answer are shared, you need to search for the question which the user must at-least read. Anyways I think they will be create more work for themselves.
What button should you click after activating your won game?
Received/Not Received.
And for such such basic questions if one is searching for forum let him search, might learn something more.
Like you said, people are problems, we try to take a shortcut by going up a mountain for more than 2hours for the road which would have gotten us in 3-4 minutes.
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people are the problem :blobevil:
Yeah, those damn humans, they ruined humanity!
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Create a set of very basic questions, randomly ask 8-10 questions after registering, allow user full access after they have successfully completed quiz with at least 65-70% correct answers.
And after a few hours, days at most, all the answers will be nicely catalogued in some shady Russian or Chinese forum.
No need to study for tests, or even know the language they're written in, when you can cheat and nobody can verify that you did.
That would be no different than scrolling down EULAs and accepting them because "ain't nobody got time to waste reading".
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There are counter points and flaws to be found in any action.
The failure of any given solution to perfectly counter every potential problem is never a logical reason to reject that solution and whatever good it accomplishes in favor of a status quo that retains all of those problems.
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The quiz sounds good.
I would advice for the first question "Did you read the rules and the FAQ?".
If yes = let the Quiz begin.
If no = open the Rules and after he scrolled down open the FAQ. After both open the Quiz ;o)
I would let the quiz show the correct answer if they pick the wrong ones, so not important how much right or wrong choosen.
After the quiz the KNOW the rules or are responsible for all that happens after it.
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It might be easier to just make a popup that reminds users before revealing a key. You could even have a text box that requires the user to type (or copy/paste) "I WILL ACTIVATE THIS GAME ON THE [insert steam name] STEAM ACCOUNT" or better yet, have them answer the question "On which steam account must this be redeemed?" where the answer is either their account name or their steam account profile number. If the answer is wrong, it just redirects the page to the FAQ or relevant rule. Phrasing might need to be improved for ESL users.
Not a trivial code change, but a doable one.
Add a support ticket category for it, make it super low priority ticket that's basically ignored until the user figures it out. Etc.
The question would be if this is a common enough occurrence for it to warrant the extra coding. No idea with the metrics work out to be. It might make people feel better, but the extra work may not lead to time saved.
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I would suggest a button for Gifter to click if the winner not activates the gift after the key is sent, a button named "Not Activated". There is a button for the winner to mark not received, a similar button for the gifter will enforce the rule to activate the wins.
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There is an option for it. Since this thing require extra information, it just can't be solved by clicking a "Not Activated" button.
When the winner doesn't mark it as received within 7 days of sending or like like. Gifter must be sure on these things
- User's availability during that period (SG and steam profile displayed offline for almost a week) => Ask for reroll
- Available, but user hasn't revealed a key. (Feature on SG winner page) => Ask for reroll
- Avaiable, user has reaveled a key (7 days past) => Request Received Feedback.
So a bit complicated, which a single button wont be able to solve.
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If he only looked at the key and NOT activated the game at his account the "request recieved feedback" brings nothing.
I had that case in the past and the support can only reroll it with the risk of now a used key or delete the GA because you aren't risk the "used key" thing.
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and the support can only reroll it
Actually, that shouldn't be the case at all. Ever since the site added the Reveal Key function, the winner'd have to claim the key as defective, or the GA creator and staff can assume the key was deliberately Not Activated (but still claimed, which means staff will still force-mark it as Received). What you're describing was certainly the case before that function was added, but that was the very thing the Reveal Key element was intended to limit.
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I think the main issue here is repeat offenders. If someone activated their wins on the "wrong Steam account" or something, then they should serve their suspension and that's it.
However, I've heard of cases where people are re-offending (obviously not learning from their previous mistakes) up to 10 or more times even, and they are still being served mere suspensions for not activating their games.
For re-offenders like these, I think SG should consider banning them since it's likely that these people might be exploiting SG's lenient punishments to get free stuff that they can then sell or re-gift.
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Yes the repeat offenders are the problem, not the ones that make one time a mistake.
And it feels as a fight against windmills to handle that ones and that should not be the case.
It brings only frustration to the honest users and the ones that make GA's.
And because the GA's are the core of this site (besides the discussions) it should not be frustrating to give something away.
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If someone activated their wins on the "wrong Steam account" or something, then they should serve their suspension and that's it.
Why punishing someone for a honest mistake, if they can just buy the same game on the right Steam account and that's it? I mean, if it's a honest mistake, you would want to fix it, don't you? And there is a way to do it!
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Maybe I should clarify - if someone activated their wins on the wrong Steam account and can't fix the issue due to whatever reason (say they've won a game that they would never be able to afford in the first place - and they were too happy about their win and activated the game on the wrong Steam account... yup, that happened to someone... not me though :P), then it's still a mistake they've made and they would likely be willing to serve their suspension.
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if someone activated their wins on the wrong Steam account and can't fix the issue
They always can. It may require time and/or money, but it's always possible. They fix it and that's the end of it. If they want a suspension instead - it's okey, they will be suspended until they change their mind and prefer to fix it.
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You want to be realistic? Okay, so it case of "extremely rare game given away" which is more realistic - "someone made a honest mistake" or "someone knew that in this case rules are less strict and decided to make huge profit without any consequences" ?
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If they want a suspension instead - it's okey, they will be suspended until they change their mind and prefer to fix it.
I hope you won't be offended by this but I honestly think that you're approaching this issue from a position of privilege. Not everyone will have the time or money to fix a mistake like an unactivated win, especially if that mistake is particularly costly to them. Note the little example I've given in my previous comment:
say they've won a game that they would never be able to afford in the first place, and they were too happy about their win and activated the game on the wrong Steam account...
An indefinite suspension for a first and potentially harmless infraction like an unactivated win would turn away many new users, some of which may end up being active members of the community if they have a second chance.
P/S: I'm not sure if a suspended person could still post comments on discussion threads but I assume they couldn't.
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Thanks for clarifying!
I still stand by what I've said. These people may not end up as gifters due to real life circumstances but they may end up being very active in the discussion threads, interacting with others and starting interesting threads, essentially giving life to SG and the community.
Let's tackle the obvious offenders first. Once we manage to cut down on users with multiple unactivated wins, then we can start looking into people with 1 unactivated win, have served out their suspension, and have not re-offended since.
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As a little correction - you can create any kind of ticket you want when suspended, not only Unsuspend request. So it is possible for permanently suspended user to come and create deletion or request new winner ticket.
Another part of the website that is accessible when logged in is account settings and FAQ / guidelines. So it is possible to purge your WL / BL or delete account.
What is accessible when you log out - discussions, public giveaways, profile page. But obviously you can't comment there.
What is not accessible at all - create new giveaway, enter giveaways, messages, page to send keys.
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Not everyone will have the time or money to fix a mistake like an unactivated win, especially if that mistake is particularly costly to them.
That's totally fine. If they don't want to use the site anymore - it's their call. It's their decision and their will.
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Well, at this point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Your sentiment is a regurgitation of one the forum community has been espousing for years, and thereby easily suported by many of us. Your poll, however, offers a rather more narrow response than previous threads on the topic.
For example, previous threads have recommended cg implemented SGT like-filtering [exclusively in relation to non-acts/multis] native to SG. Less strict, recommendations simply for flagging potential violations and report status [visibile only to GA creators for their active winners] to make rule violation recognition native, and thereby more likely to be reported by users. That is, some recommendations were to impr
Other recommendations were to have a "three strikes [be that wins or reports] you're out" policy in place (versus the somewhat vague "well, this looks like it's a problem now" approach staff has traditionally approached violations with [which may explain why you saw 10+ violators without perma-suspensions, despite the fact that I've more typically seen staff apply them by that point]).
Even just among ideas that've been thrown out in the past, there are a fair number of ways to approach the matter that would do a lot to improve the health of the community, both by limiting exploitation and by reducing GA creator stresses and dissatisfaction [namely towards public giveaways, which I know a lot of us more firmly established forum goers have come to actively avoid].
In comparison to that, your "let's do this specific approach, how should we nuance it?" poll feels a bit shortsighted. That said, since staff already has an established "you can get your perma-suspension removed if you activate the games or are trying to work out resolutions with the GA creators" rule in place, there's not really any reason stricter punishments shouldn't be considered. (Though, it is worth noting, it already is traditional for staff to "stack" suspension lengths for repeat offenders.)
To conclude: It's a good sentiment, but the topic should be opened up for more robust discourse. Also, even if you're sure of your perspectives, do try and at least include an "other" option in most any opinion poll you make. It gives a much better impression than a poll which essentially forces a particular perspective on pollers.
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I know my ideas are not the best maybe they are not even good so this is why I'm happy that people discuss here showing their ideas so maybe we can together come with some sort of solution.
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And reports end only with a few day suspension and they can do this again and again and again.
That is not how it works.
The SteamGifts community generally frowns upon non-activation of wins, and that sentiment is shared among Support Staff. The five-day suspension you characterize as "a slap on the wrist" applies only in one instance; if it is a first offense, and if it is only one non-activated game. All other instances are handled at the discretion of Support Staff, up to and including permaban.
Ultimately, however, the goal is to limit non-activation of wins as far as that is possible. To that end, this topic is discussed regularly among SG Support members and among the SG community. To date, nobody has come up with a better solution than that currently implemented. As website functions are added and/or tweaked by CG, new options become available. For that reason, debate continues to be welcome.
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I disagree with your sentence
"...nobody has come up with a better solution than that currently implemented"
It gave a lot of advices to make the handling better.
One of the easiest solutions would be a AUTOMATIC check of ALL winners, from sg at sgtools, and then a AUTOMATIC ticket/redflag for the support members, to look into, if someone have red marks at sgtools.
In a very short time all the users that are repeating offenders (that do it mostly to resell/trade the games) are punished in the way they should.
That would allow the honest users to have a much lower ammount of users at the BL, much lower ammount of frustration for the gifters.
And a second thing would be allowing the sgtools checks for public GA's.
In one stroke it would be possible to prevent all "not activated wins" rule breakers to enter the GA's and change their behavior in seconds.
That would allow a very big part of the gifters to make again public Ga's.
I am very sure you are aware how many of the long time gifters stopped to make public GA's or reduced the ammount drastical because 20-25% of the winners make work after the win (red marks at sgtools are the biggest part of that).
If you aren't aware then take a look into the ammount of public Ga's you are able to enter and try to remember yourself how it was 2, 3, 4 years ago.
I see it decreasing each year faster and faster....
and i see more and more frustrated long time gifters that stop the gifting because of that problem(s).
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How did you come on that "3 times more" number ?
Sure it would give AT THE BEGIN more red flags/tickets to look into. That is qithout a question.
But only because so much rule breakers are still around and not caught till now.
After a very short time that ammount fall very fast because the black sheeps, that break the rules all the time as long as it needs to catch them, gets kicked.
We can make sgtools Ga's for invite only GA's, so it must give a possibility to implement it somehow at the public GA's OR make a own checking mechanism for "not activated wins" (the multiple wins aren't such a big thing by newer accounts and infractions because sg blocks now your ability to enter them again).
I am no programmer but i don't think it is rocket since for someone that made such a site and with all the programmers here around that for sure, partly, will help, if that is needed.
Long story short:
If cg is willing, it would give a (better) solution. At least earlier or later.
And thats not the case in the last 2 years from my point of view
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Sure are that problems BUT (i love that word^^ :-D) it is possible to have a list and put the "false positive" game names in that one and mark all "tickets" that have the same game as the problem be set automatic at solved after a support member took it to the false positive list.
More work = Yes
For each game more as one time work = No
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Well, sgtools is maintained by one person, and he is quite good at it, MUCH better than all SG support together. Either he is a superman or you are exaggerating the problems in maintaining this feature.
And of course it should not be sgtools itself, it should be integrated in sg; It should not be hard, and I almost sure knsys will share his code if needed.
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It gave a lot of advices to make the handling better.
...and nobody, as of yet, has come up with a better solution than that currently implemented. SGTools cannot even handle the simple task of checking non-activated wins. There are too many variables and too much information to analyze for automation to be a feasible alternative to human investigative work.
This site continues to evolve, however, so that reality may change in the future.
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Has there been any sharing of data showing how frequently this occurs? I can absolutely understand not sharing that information. Just curious. I'd be particularly interested to see the change in frequency as the value of the GA increases.
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Are people not aware that "BAN untill someone activates his wins" is already standard policy on the site? Or has it been changed lately?
The first time I was suspended it was explicitly for 7 days + indefinitely until all wins were activated.
The amount was about ~10 wins or so, which makes sense. If someone gets banned for a minor amount of unactivated wins (e.g. 5 or less), I don't see why they'd need a harsh indefinite punishment for a first time offense. After all, mechanics such as SGTools already ensure actual long term punishment for people that don't rectify their unactivated wins. There's no need to punish them further.
People tend to forget that it's not very easy to gain access to this site. Users have no incentive to game the offense system since punishment is already inevitable and strict, and you will likely end up banned from the site forever if you don't respect that.
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since punishment is already inevitable and strict
Ah, but like many have said here, people are only punished if they are caught and the catching part can be elusive to many givers here due one reason or another. I've only started using SGTools to check for rule breakers after realizing that there are more rule breakers running around than I'd expect.
The amount was about ~10 wins or so, which makes sense.
And how does that make any sense? It was bad enough to have 1 unactivated win but 10? What did you do? :O
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You have seen the asian guy with 50+ accounts short ago that won with his bot army a lot of games and activated the games at his main account ?
You know all the places that give free games ? The russian shops that sell expensive games, 20-50$ worth, for 6-20 cents ?
And then you come really around with "it's not very easy to gain access to this site" ?
"BAN untill someone activates his wins" is already standard policy on the site
Ähm, nope.
That is only the case if someone get a perma suspension because of not activated his wins (so maybe after 4 or 5 not activated games).
I disagree with you that 5 or less not activated wins are a minor amount. From my point of view are that very high. Not to speak from ~10
mechanics such as SGTools already ensure actual long term punishment for people that don't rectify their unactivated wins. There's no need to punish them further.
Ähm... what did sgtools at public GA's ? What at group GA's ? What at Whitelist GA's ?
Exactly NOTHING
Great long term punishment... very effective :-D
Oh and at the invite only GA's you CAN use sgtools if you make yourself each time the extra work to set up a GA with sgtools protection.
I made that with maybe 200 GA's and i can say you that it took a lot of extra time.
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People with 10+ unactivated wins got those because only a few members check their winners and report those "bad guys". Instead of harder punishments we should to encourage giveaway creators to check their winners.
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^ This. If you're not checking your winners, you're part of the problem.
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The whole checking for the winner should be a thing the page does for me.
When I did the calendar last year I had ~80 winners in one day. I'll not check them.
We need to sync our account anyway so why can't steamgifts check for themself and just send an auto message to the giftcreator if someone did not activated the game after 7 days.
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I've done a few giveaways, mostly public, and I check all my winners. If you're not doing it for yourself, do it for other giveaway creators.
The whole checking for the winner should be a thing the page does for me.
"Steam is learning about this game."
"Profile features disabled."
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No, I agree with MachinesAreHuman on this, but I also see your point about it.
So if we cant have an absolute perfect automated function, perhaps a heads up function with minimal input from user?
When using SGTools there is almost always a few positives that SGTools itself tells me is probably false, as it can't check properly. Well, neither can I (or more correctly, I won't spend that time on it even if I can). So there could be a more scaled down automation, that tells me if I need to look further into a winner or not.
Simply something that bypasses the SGTools own professed false positives (whitelist + DLC + etc) and gives me a heads up if there's anything else I should look into, or just tells me that the winner is clear, good to go.
Reading SGTools report on every winner (especially if you make a lot of GA's) just to have to read 5-6 times on each person that the games highlighted are ''probably activated but we just wanted to waste your time with this text'' is a nuisance, and the main reason I don't use it today.
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Perhaps I should change my original comment to read "If you're not checking your winners, all the punishment in the world won't make a difference?"
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I agree with you, but there's an issue with it too. If we can't auto-check-control via SGTools (as mentioned above), then what difference will it make if I look myself? It will show the same flaws and give the same errors as if it was automatically read, no? So my report or re-roll request will contain same false-positives as if a bot did the work?
I'm genuinely asking, not being obtuse for the sake of argument, I really want to know.
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Not exactly as you can check the reports from sgtools for false positives. E.g.is the game removed or profile limited and adult content.
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Yeah, sure, that I can (didn't even know adult content showed up as non-activation).
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This, totally.
You know there's a problem, when there're users who believe "they could get away with it once or twice because nobody ever checks". No amount of punishment will ever be enough, if it cannot be handed out in the first place.
And yes, that wasn't a random example.
The best part is that it wasn't one of those low level "leechers" who enter everything in sight and can never be bothered to read the rules, but an "unsuspectable". I'm obviously not gonna name them, but they did eventually fix it.
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it's someone else's fault!
not my responsibility!
OMG CG STOP THE CHEATERS!
sg™
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I'm sorry if my post sounds like that. That wasn't my intention. What I tried to say is that everyone can make SG better with checking their winners.
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well, i was agreeing 😅 your post sounded like the reality of sg, nothing wrong with your observation. 👍
if people took a bit of time to check everyone instead of isolating their giveaways with sgtools and groups, this place would be better.
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Sorry if I missed this being discussed, I skimmed but didn’t see it.
How do you determine if the giver or the receiver is the bad actor? Wouldn’t it be possible for the gifter to provide a bad key then blame the winner for non-activation?
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In order to be flagged up as not activating a game, the receiver would have to find out that its a bad key and then mark the giveaway as received. If they marked it as not received then they've got no issues.
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So there are people who have multiple unactivated wins who haven't figured out to just not click "received" when re-purposing a key they won? I'm not sure if I should be amused or depressed.
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Basically yeah, there are people who get a bad key and mark the giveaway as received - I'm sure a lot of them act with good intentions not wanting to cause problems for the gifter but they end up being the ones getting punished because they don't follow the rules D:
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Oh no. I was talking about the other way around. Winners with bad intentions who plan on using the key on another account or selling it. They haven't figured out to just not click received and claim the key was bad? I would think the ones trying to game the system would have figured this out by now. But I guess that causes more noise and it's easier to try and go unnoticed? shrugs
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Oh right, yeah that would probably work. I guess people who feel the need to do that kind of thing aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, though to be fair people won't take a not received lying down if they don't have to and would probably report them if they personally believed the key was legit, if that happens a few times I reckon Support could put two and two together.
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"A few times?"
- We get users who give bad keys and then blame the receiver.
- We get users who receive bad keys and claim receipt of the game.
- We get users who give good keys and their winner claims "not received."
- We get users who receive good keys and claim "not received."
- We get users who do not actually have a key, just a winning friend who will mark "received" for them.
- We get users who do not bother to follow up on their giveaways, either giving or receiving, and so everything is left in "limbo" with no information available nor action taken.
And then there are the "unusual" cases....
On occasion, the problem turns out to be a simple mix-up, and its solution is likewise simple. Most of the time, however, there is no adequate substitute for human intervention.
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I should have clarified, a few times for that specific receiver. If everyone's keys don't work for one particular user, maybe it's not necessarily the keys that are the issue.
Of course there are many intricacies involved in this kind of thing.
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If the key was from a good shop the creator will ask their support for a new key and the old one gets revoked.
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Should the punishment for not activating wins be changed?
no
And reports end only with a few day suspension and they can do this again and again and again. Like some people did it 10+ times.
they can do it like 2-3 times and get a permanent suspension. no one with 10 unactivated wins gets a free pass to go back to sg, it's a myth. they get reported once, and perma-suspended.
i'd rather have someone banned for bad behavior rather than not activating a 10 cent game.
people that insults and treats others like trash (being elitist, constantly reminding others they are leeches) kills the joy of giving and having fun on steamgifts way more than a peasant that won and ran away with a game worth pennies.
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Well, I know for a fact (from a trustworthy source) that someone with 10 unactivated wins is still participating in GAs and PAGYWOSG events. Reported to support and all they said was that the person has already served their suspension.
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i would rather trust support's judgement and their internal work of the rules, they aren't black and white so who knows why that user was allowed to be around sg with his unactivated wins (assuming that's true). 🤷
and since we're using personal experience as proof, i've also seen my share of perma-suspensions for users with ~10 bad wins, and that's where i based my comment.
it's extremely rare to find a user with more than ~3 unactivated wins, and they are all from 3 years ago at least (so all suspensions were served already).
here are some FACTS from 2016 about repeated offenders, which is extremely low considering people are crying like mad that "rule breakers and extreme leeches will keep breaking rules and stealing wins till they reach 999,999 unactivated wins".
well, i still have to find someone like that so i can give them a prize for making so much profits out of sg. 😵
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i would rather trust support's judgement and their internal work of the rules
That's where we might have a slight difference of opinion, but I'm willing to leave it at that.
and since we're using personal experience as proof
Oh no, don't get me wrong - it's not my personal experience but rather someone who is a long-time and outstanding member of SG; someone whose word I would trust. Personally, I have yet to find someone with 10 unactivated wins. If I recall correctly, the most I've found has like 3 unactivated games.
There's also at least one other person here who caught someone with huge numbers of unactivated wins. You might need to read through a lot of the previous comments to find it though.
here are some FACTS from 2016 about repeated offenders, which is extremely low
The stats is rather old. Would be nice if we could have more recent numbers.
I'd also point out that the low-ish percentage of people who were caught to re-offend forms the basis of why I support being lenient to first time offenders who are still new to the website, especially if they were caught when they only have 1 unactivated win on their account or have a handful of unactivated wins that were obtained within a short period of time such as via trains.
However, I do believe that, at the very least, an indefinite suspension (or a perma-ban) would be more suitable for people with large numbers of unactivated wins spanning months or even years. Only if they have activated all of their unactivated wins - start with a clean slate so to speak - would they be allowed to appeal their suspension/ban. Whether or not they get to return to SG will depend on support's decision.
If that's the case, we wouldn't have people with a tons of unactivated wins still running around on the site (even after serving mere suspensions), or having lots of people complaining that they've found such rule-breakers. It might also be a good idea for support to have a list of these people (with lots of unactivated wins) and check them occasionally, but I know that's not feasible with the current system.
Also, if you've read what Masafor has been commenting on this thread, the main issue why many repeat offenders have not yet been caught yet and deigned to continue to re-offend is because not enough people are checking their winners. The stats provided isn't indicative of the actual number of rule breakers or re-offenders on SG, and not to mention, by the time a repeat offender was caught, the person might already have racked up quite the rap sheet, maybe not "999,999 unactivated wins" like you've said (I know you're exaggerating :) ) but substantial enough to make someone sit up straight.
Along this line of thought, I think it would be wise to also encourage previous offenders, even first timers, who have served their respective suspensions to activate the games they did not activate. Maybe this is something that's currently not emphasized enough when an offender is first suspended?
It might also be a good idea to have someone create a guide on SG that'll let these offenders know how they could fix the cause of their suspension; something that's easy for support staff to link to.
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You have that person right there in the comments admiting to it and you can check it yourself. It is most defnetly true.
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Sadly I have a guy that have 10 unactivated wins and is still active on SG on my BL as he said that if he wins a good game he activates it but if he wins a bad game he sells them as they won't have shit games on their account.
But it seams that 10 unactivated wins is fine as 8 unactivated wins in one month counts as 1 suspension.
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I had several cases with 10+ non-activated wins where support said they served their suspension, so reroll was denied.
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no one with 10 unactivated wins gets a free pass to go back to sg, it's a myth.
Look at this marvelous mythical creature! Reported (at least) twice, still not permabanned. Do you still believe that it's a myth? What next, Santa don't exist?
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6 non-activated wins at most, since he won packs. 🤷
nothing out of the ordinary.
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Too bad his profile is private now... This screenshot wasn't last, and he actually had more not activated wons, but now I can't prove it(
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People who win more than one game per month - who are they?)))
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You're new, and haven't entered many giveaways. You can't expect to win with those odds.
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1 win/month = leeches
more than 1 wins/month = big leeches
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1 win/month = leeches
more than 1 wins/month = big leeches
Not that I care but you should realize that you've averaged a win a month? Just saying. Don't mean it as disrespect but IMO too much judgement in these forums.
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Heh be patient little grasshopper. You entered 42 giveaways. If you won with those odds, you should give up on SG and play the lottery instead!
Seriously though. With the amount of giveaways you made, look into joining some groups.
Unlucky 7 is a good start to help newbies who are active get their first wins. You need a couple more weeks to qualify for membership. Don't give up.
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I know very well how SG works and just laugh. I deleted a level 10 account more than a year ago, but even then I rarely won more than one game in a few months.
Although, it is very interesting that 4 years ago, when I registered for the first time, I won the very first giveaway that I entered (I was very surprised, since I really didn’t think that it happened)
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Something to consider is that people get banned as a result of moderator errors. I got a notification that I was banned for a week for not activating 2 wins that were months old. The problem was that I DID activate the wins. It seems that the tools that moderators use can return false results. I immediately opened a ticket and submitted evidence that the wins had been activated within required timelines.By the time the mods addressed the ticket, I had served 4 or 5 of the 7 day suspension. This is not a big surprise given the complaints we see about moderator backlogs. No real remorse was offered and there was even a suggestion made that it was my fault because I must have set my profile to 'private'. I did not. No changes were made. Other users have reported similar experiences to me.
I don't mean to sound like moderator bashing. I appreciate the volunteers. But there is a problem with adding rules when the the system struggles with the current rules. Unenforced or incorrectly enforced rules are in some respects worse than too few rules. It would not be an improvement to extend the ban to say a month or longer, and then not have the resources to correctly enforce the rule or then take weeks to correct the mistakes that do occur. IMO, It would be better to improve the resources and processes that exist, reduce the errors, and reduce the backlog of support tickets.
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reduce the backlog of support tickets
:-D
How with much to less, active and motivated, staff members ?
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It's not for me to say, but IMO certain routine tickets could be more automated. Suggestions have been made to this effect. Reducing errors would also help that goal. Others suggestions are likely possible. More and harsher rules should not be the focus when there are these signs of admin and enforcement challenges.
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In my beginnings here, I didn't realize, that I need to activate the keys on the same account I'm signed in with (should've read the rules, I know). So I did also activate some (I think they are 3) keys on a family-account. About half a year or nearly a year later I got banned for quiet some time because of that. Unfortunately it was exactly in a time, where I did a lot of GAs. Got Blacklisted a lot in that period, earned some "non received" even though I did send the keys after my ban was over. Subsequently I am not able to enter GAs, which are blocked by SGTools, because of my non-activations (yeah I know, I could buy the games, but I don't want to spend money on something I already have). So I think, I got punished enough and would be sad about a perma-ban just because of my small mistake, even though I am selfconfident enough to live with it's consequences. I still like to give and I would love to continue.
In the cases you describe I see it quite like you. But: who will investigate on what really happend? On paper I would be just the same and would get banned forever, just because I was stupid at one point. People should have the chance to defend themselves and therefore we would need more moderators on this site.
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I've been here for a year and I met many great people. But this post is not about them.
I also seen some things that bother me deep down inside.
I have seen people winning games and regifting their wins, trading their wins, selling their wins etc.
And reports end only with a few day suspension and they can do this again and again and again. Like some people did it 10+ times. So I think that winning a game but not activating it should give you much bigger punishment than a simple slap on the wrist.
What do you guys think about it?
I made a poll so maybe SG Support will take this to the guy that owns this site and maybe we as a community can change this rule or rather the severity of punishment for breaking this rule?
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