The intent or reducing the CV is not to discourage giving, but rather to discourage CV abuse.
GENERALLY, one pays for the games they give away.
When a user gives a new AAA game, that's usually at a larger cost than an older, bundled item. For that offering, they get the nominal CV for the game.
However, if the same game later goes on a steep discount, someone may be able to acquire 10 copies for the same cost (hypothetically - deals/bundles vary), and they could easy skyrocket their level by giving them away here.
In the past, free games were not allowed at all, but people had keys laying around they wanted to give away, so the site changed to allow this to be done, but providing 0 CV in return.
Nothing in life is really ever fair, but we try to at least make the cost to level return more level so that the second user doesn't get ahead while spending less.
The system isn't perfect, but I personally feel it has always made sense (even from before I was made a support member) to do it this way, and I've never felt I was being encouraged to do something I didn't indent to do.
If this site wants to encourage people to give away games, and some games are from bundles, maybe try grouping all the bundle games together in easily collapsible groups, so they don't spam the list? That would avoid some of the problems of spamming the site without resorting to dark patterns.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here? Do you mean a separate page or section, depending on if the game was bundled/reduced?
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From the standpoint of treating this site and the contributor level as a "investment", your comments make a lot of sense, but I guess what I'm asking is what exactly is the contributor level, and why does it need to be protected so much from people giving away bundled games? Is the contributor level not some fun game you get to participate in while giving away your unused games, or is it something more serious?
I am a new user here, so please understand my ignorance of the ways of this site. My impressions of this site so far are that it's a fun game system way to give away your keys, but your comments seems to indicate that this is a much more serious way of... trading money for contributor level or something, what benefit do you get from high contributor levels besides more exclusive giveaways? Am I missing something?
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Your user level can grant access to more restrictive giveaways (i.e. those that users have opted to restrict to level x+). The higher your level, the better your odds of winning may be. There's not a hard currency that goes with CV, but that's the benefit one can hope to gain by exploiting the system.
Some people give games just to give games. Some give to gain levels and increase their odds. Some give just because they bought a bundle and had some leftovers they had no need for.
It depends on who you ask.
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I don't really know much about all the details of this site, I'm just speaking to my experience as a new player. Wouldn't it be cool to have an inviting interface that encourages people to participate and give away games? It's all a fun game it seems, and giving new players a less-than-optimal experience seems to be counter to the fun game aspect of it all. Why is that?
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You're the one who chose to completely ignore the
'* Reduced value towards your contributor level.
** No value towards your contributor level.
The site didn't trick you into signing a contract or buying anything so the patterns must be red instead of dark.
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Those asterisks don't mean anything when you see this after typing in Limbo and moving to the next section
https://i.imgur.com/GXdnxMZ.png
You can see that Limbo doesn't have an asterisk on it. It DOES have an asterisk in the popup that appears while you are typing, but from what I've learned, if you type fast and go through the UI quickly, you won't see the asterisks.
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looks fine to me :) https://i.imgur.com/FyRxtNp.png
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Yes everything becomes meaningless if you choose on your own to ignore them. Is that a dark pattern inside of you that you're just seeing everything else as dark through?
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I'm merely bringing up a shortcoming of the site from the perspective of a new person to the site. From the outset it looks intentionally deceptive, it's only after hearing all the people in this thread who have been here for years that I finally understand that I should have used my years of experience on the site in order to avoid this pitfall.
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If you think you had to dig deep to find the information about different classes of CV, we have a very different understanding of "digging deep".
The CV system needs a little time to be understood but you can not expect to understand every bit of new information at once.
I would not call that a "dark pattern" but a very valid try to keep the "create giveaways page" clean and not overflowing with information.
Imho one can expect from every user of an app or website to read FAQs/guideliens/... before investing anything and come to an informed decission about using the app/website then.
Edit: After looking at your giveaways, this thread reads for me like "I did not get CV for my no CV giveaways. I did not read the FAQ before and did not care about the asterixes".
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I think you misunderstand what dark patterns are, they are deliberate decisions to de-emphasize certain things in favor of others in the hopes that the user will do some action that is not what they actually intended to do. In this case, the site throws a lot of information at the user and hopes that they won't notice the little asterisks when they are having fun giving away stuff. On the "review page" of a giveaway, does it indicate that you've chosen a game that does not actual have any value for the contributor level game on this site? Not at all, it has a "very small" message on the initial create giveaway page that pops up momentarily while you are selecting a game that you must be very carefully watching for, the asterisks. This is a dark pattern.
Instead of telling the user very clearly on the review page before they post that the game is valued at nothing, it has an intrinsic value (10P, 20P, etc) that appears to be this sites indication of value of that game, when in reality, that number is only one number, and there is another "secret" number that determines its real value. Why this isn't made more evident in the UI seems like a fairly deliberate choice, and which is why I identified this as a dark pattern.
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You're the one misunderstanding what dark patterns are by referring to this as a dark pattern. Nothing in the UI causes someone to do something they don't intend, and neither the site nor the other users get any advantage out of a user creating a No or reduced CV giveaway instead of a full value one. So even if there is a UI problem it's not a dark pattern because no one is hoping for any particular action from the confused user.
Second, it's not a momentary pop up, it's right there before you even select a game, and stays there after you select a game:
https://i.imgur.com/fOHdfl3.png
It would be nicer if it said what the reduction (15%) for reduced value games is, but otherwise it's clear even to someone who hasn't read the FAQ that a) those games are different, and b) that no value giveaways give no value.
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If you type the name of the game quickly, it pops up quickly and disappears, and the box showing the name of the game doesn't have an asterisk. Shouldn't the box showing the selected game show the asterisk still? Why does it disappear?
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If you type the name of the game quickly you might choose the wrong game.You're not supposed to click quickly, you should be reading the options and then selecting the correct game, that should give you more than enough time to see the asterisks.
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This is not even slightly a dark pattern. Main purpose here is to give away games, not leveling up. If you are here to participate in higher level giveaways, sorry but that's just a bonus. And this system exists to protect this site from leechers and bots.
Red asterisks clearly say what this is about and you should've read the FAQ before creating a giveaway, it's that simple.
Here, how it looks.
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I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over again here, but here goes:
I know that main purpose is to give away games, I stated that in my original post. The contributor level is a mini-game to assist in the game giving away part of this site and to have fun. I am simply stating that the user interface isn't designed to be intuitive enough for new users to not get confused by what is happening when you give away a game. Again, I read the FAQ and I didn't know I needed to ask questions about the No Value, Reduced Value part, because I was new, and when I was creating a giveaway it didn't say anything like that on the review page, or even when you select a game, which I have addressed in other posts.
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I know it can be confusing for new members but that's what FAQ is all about.
This is directly from FAQ and I think it's pretty clear.
What are "No Value", "Reduced Value", and "Full Value" giveaways? How do they affect my overall contributor value?
When creating a giveaway and selecting a game, you'll notice "No Value" games are marked with a double asterisk (*), and "Reduced Value" games with a single asterisk (). If you hover over those icons, you'll see the effective date for the value adjustments. For example, if a game is marked with a single asterisk (*), and hovering the icon shows "Reduced value since January 4, 2018", this would mean giveaways created for that game on January 4, 2018 or later will receive reduced contributor value. Games typically receive no value or reduced value when they're featured in bundles, heavily discounted, or available for free in online promotions. Their values are adjusted this way to better represent their true value. Keep in mind, the asterisk icons are just for reference, and the value of a game can be backdated if we need to make retroactive changes.
Games fall into one of the below three categories.
-
No Value:
No contributor value when given away after the effective date. -
Reduced Value
15% contributor value when given away after the effective date. -
Full Value
100% contributor value when given away.If you visit your profile, you can see a breakdown of your previous giveaways. If you hover over the "Gifts Sent" number on your profile, you'll see the number of gifts you have given away in each category.
For example, you give away three games. Game A is $10.00 and it has no value. Game B is $20.00, and it has reduced value. Game C is $50.00 on Steam, and it has full value. Once your giveaways have ended and the gifts have been received by their winners, you will see the updated values on your profile. In this case, you would see "Gifts Sent: 3 ($80.00)". This would show that you have successfully given away 3 gifts, and their current list price on Steam is $80.00 in total. If you hover over the number of gifts, you would see you have one "No Value" gift, one "Reduced Value", and one "Full Value". If you hover over the dollar value, you would see you have a contributor value of $53. It would be calculated as 0% of the gift with no value (0 x $10.00 = $0.00) + 15% of the gift with reduced value (0.15 x $20.00 = $3.00) + 100% of the gift with full value ($50.00).
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You don't need to post the rules or a screenshot of the page, I know where those are NOW, after I learned about it after the fact. You are missing my point:
When you select a game on the give away page:
https://i.imgur.com/GXdnxMZ.png
The asterisk isn't there, maybe you clicked the popup too quickly.
When you click Review giveaway, there is no asterisk, and as a new person to this site, what should I pay attention to on the review page to know that the giveaway isn't worth anything towards contributor level?
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Yes, those asterisks don't appear on review page but you cannot say it's a dark pattern because dark patterns are intentional. You may call this a "gap" at best, or a "missing feature".
The asterisks even informative if you hover your mouse.
Sorry about you learned it by experience. If you want to level up fast, you can always give away non-bundled games. It doesn't affect your contributor level if that game becomes free after you gave it away.
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I didn't know there is a pop-up when you hover over. And wanted to say it must be ESGST feature :hehe:
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I discovered that not so long ago and yes it's a pretty cool feature. ^^
I don't think I installed ESGST though, cg probably implemented it then?
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I did disable ESGST before I wrote comment, and pop-up is still there. So it's part of SG website. Not an add-on.
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Actually I never used ESGST before (I think), I only use the app from F-Droid for the times I'm on a travel. Now checked the features and maybe I should install it. In that case, thanks for the heads up.
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So let's make the asterix stick after you selected the game. That still does not solve retroactive changes as detailed in the FAQ.
Imo the internet as a whole is not meant to be for people who are not willing to read. Since mobile devices and apps promote "everyone can use it without thinking", many are not willing to invest time into a program/website/... to learn the basic functionallity before they start to use it.
Post like yours are not new and pop up every now and then. Although I think yours is the first blaming th UI. For us regular users these posts read the same at their core: "I did not understand the site and did not get any level". It gets tiresome after a while.
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I'm a web developer, and avid hobby web enthusiast. I love playing with user interfaces and I even built and maintained a bunch of greasemonkey userscripts for sites that I used to frequent. I'm also a new user here, I figured the suggestions board here would be the best place to relay my new user experience in hopes that someone could learn and improve that experience.
I also suppose I could build a userscript for this site that would place the asterisk there without requiring the developer of this site to make any changes, but I still think this is a problem and a somewhat dark pattern, because it takes advantage of a new user's inexperience and could result in them giving away a game thinking it would somehow help them with their contributor level when it in fact did not.
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The whole idea of this site is that you can raffle games and the more you raffle, the higher level you get.
the idea is to give away games because you want to share. leveling up is a side-effect.
if you treat it as an investment because "the higher level you have, the more you win", you're in for a disappointment.
If you want to devalue games listed in bundles and discourage people from giving away these games (for what reason I'm not entirely sure)
the purpose of the bundled system isn't to discourage people from making giveaways with those games, it's there to prevent users from exploiting them.
bundled games or heavily discounted ones return 15% in cv. games given away for free (like all your giveaways) are worth 0.
it might seem unfair, but it could be worse: people grabbing multiple free keys from promotions to farm cv (some already do it and they don't get cv, imagine if it worked...).
DARK PATTERNS
new dramatic term added to the database 👮♀️
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if you treat it as an investment because "the higher level you have, the more you win", you're in for a disappointment.
So much of this. New people tend to think they will be rewarded somehow for leveling up but you will not get what you expect in the end.
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I don't see this as an investment, it's a fun game way to get rid of the extra keys I had. The idea that I'm bringing up here is that there is a dark pattern on this site. Making it a fun game is the idea, but making it a game with hidden rules isn't a fun game, it's a game designed for some people to win at the expense of other people, not through playing the game well, but through somewhat underhanded tactics. Anyways... it's all in service of fun and trying to make the site more enjoyable. Yes, I'm a new user, does this site discourage new users?
It's a signature of a dark pattern when the UI encourages a non-experienced user to do something that they did not intend. That is not a good thing, it's a bad thing, at least from what I've always understood.
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Yeah there are other topics of new people have hardship with UI too i agree on that. It's not really hard imo but i am not new too so i don't know.
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It's a signature of a dark pattern when the UI encourages a non-experienced user to do something that they did not intend
the UI: https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/new
* Reduced value towards your contributor level.
** No value towards your contributor level.
proper user reasoning:
"i wonder what a red asterisk means?"
"reduced contributor level?"
"no value?"
"better check the FAQ/rules/guidelines!"
others:
OMG I GOT 0CV
WTH
STUPID SITE
DARK PATTERNS!
CALL THE FBI!
the site won't help you if you don't put at least 1% effort into learning how it works. you keep repeating dramatic terms and they don't apply in this case, at all. 🤦♀️
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/faq
When creating a giveaway and selecting a game, you'll notice "No Value" games are marked with a double asterisk (*), and "Reduced Value" games with a single asterisk (). If you hover over those icons, you'll see the effective date for the value adjustments. For example, if a game is marked with a single asterisk (*), and hovering the icon shows "Reduced value since January 4, 2018", this would mean giveaways created for that game on January 4, 2018 or later will receive reduced contributor value. Games typically receive no value or reduced value when they're featured in bundles, heavily discounted, or available for free in online promotions. Their values are adjusted this way to better represent their true value. Keep in mind, the asterisk icons are just for reference, and the value of a game can be backdated if we need to make retroactive changes.
Games fall into one of the below three categories.
- No Value:
No contributor value when given away after the effective date.- Reduced Value
15% contributor value when given away after the effective date.- Full Value
100% contributor value when given away.
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/guidelines
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If you want to discount my experience as a new user as it pertains to improving a non-intuitive user interface, and one that I think is a dark pattern, then congratulations, you win. I'm not here to try and tell you that the information doesn't exist to avoid pitfalls, I'm telling you that it's subtle and designed explicitly to confuse the new user.
Here is what the create giveaway form shows for me after selecting a No Value towards contributor level game.
https://i.imgur.com/GXdnxMZ.png
Where in that picture does it tell you that the game is worth no value? (By the way, I don't know how to include pictures in posts, so I just made an imgur link, hope that is okay :) )
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It tells you here, you need to select that limbo with 2 asterisks which FAQ tells you about it. :D
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The auto-complete box doesn't immediately show anything when you go to the form and it doesn't indicate that it will show a list of items, so I immediately typed LIMBO and moved on to the next element in the form, I didn't even know there was a popup because it disappeared so fast. That is probably where the confusion lies.
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Nope i have just tried niether writing only the name nor pressing enter works. You have to click on the game to make it valid. Maybe a fast misclick may cause your confusion nothing else in this matter i suppose.
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But of course you're rewarded. Being high level you get to bask in illusion that you're somehow better than all these peasants and that you've actually achieved something.
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They should really start checking things:
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=2
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=3
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=4
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=5
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=6
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=7
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=8
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=9
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/search?level_min=10
And then even look at stuff given...
Public giveaways(or even private) really aren't very special.
Though levels do give access to groups...
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I think this is a function people wanting to play the contributor level game on the site, when you say "you can't play the game if you try to give away these games" you are explicitly making it a game to try and find cheap/free games that the SG people haven't identified as free or reduced yet and give those away to win the game. But it does have the added negative consequence of devaluing good quality games because they have been in a bundle ever, which maybe isn't the best system for having quality games to give away on here.
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You know what is the true dark pattern....
Those values can be set to 0 or reduced retroactively. So as long as giveway was made after date deemed to be start of bundle, discount or giveway it will get reduced value or even 0 value.
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Why is that? Why is there such a strong bias against any games from a bundle?
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To keep the poor trash out of the high level club, why else? Maybe it has something to do with how much you actually pay for the games and stop people like you from regifting free games they get elsewhere.
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I agree, perhaps something more along the lines of a sunny paisley or even a plaid.
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Indeed. Tell me this site wouldn't look amazing with that as a background.
I bet attitudes would improve immensely as well!
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oh my, since a while I don't participate in the discussions on the site, but this thread made me genuinely laugh out loud, thank you guys <3
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I can add that points have nothing to do with what kind of CV you get. A non bundle game can be $60 on steam and its capped at 50P when entering the giveaway. But you will receive $60 towards your CV. If the dev in the future lowers the price on steam your CV value will in turn also decrease.
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The problem seems to be that the site encourages people to giveaway items that give them no credit towards the mysterious "contributor level". This is a DARK PATTERN user interface design. ( https://darkpatterns.org/ )
Don't think I agree with this statement. While I admit I had not heard the term before, the link you provided seems to be showing examples of intentional deception to acquire additional resources through shady tactics (e.g. hidden fees, prolonged service, gathering/sharing/selling of personal info, etc). I question if that can even really apply in a scenario where you are literally giving something away. Yes, you do receive CV and that can allow you to enter more restrictive giveaways. Yes, perhaps the FAQ could include more information or the UI could be improved but I think that's a far cry from intentionally misleading people and doesn't seem fair to accuse the site of those kind of shady tactics. If you have proposals for specific things to be added to the FAQ or specific UI changes that could improve the site, then by all means, suggest away and I'll be happy to lend a +1 for support. But just being frustrated, doesn't make it right to slam work done by others.
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There is a number associated with every game on this site the (10P, 20P, etc), this number indicates a value associated with that game, when you select it via the giveaways creation menu. On the review page, it shows very clearly that number at the top next to that game. Why is this number emphasized and the fact that this game might be worth 0 towards the fun contributor level game thing on this site not indicated anywhere except in a brief popup on the first page (which if you aren't careful, you will never in fact even see those little asterisks?
Was this decision made to make sure new users have a good time, or make sure new users will give away stuff without knowing that they are playing the game wrong?
Would you play a game where someone was deliberately concealing the rules to you? Seems kind of shady to me. Yes, I am aware this is a fun game, but the things changing hands have been very carefully looked at and deemed to either have value or not by someone, and that same someone has determined that it's more important to get more giveaways than to make the game fair to new people coming to play, which seems like a dark pattern to me.
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Points is the cost to enter giveaways, how much points you have (top right) and earn during one day is mentioned in FAQ.
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You are conflating two different mechanics together which is why you think it is a Dark Pattern. The value of the giveaway to the people entering has nothing to do with the value that is contributed to your CV(Contributor Value).
The point value of the giveaway (10P, 20P) is only applicable to the people entering the giveaway. It is the amount of points of their ration that they are given that it takes to enter the give away. True that it is loosely based on the normal retail value of the game (not including sales), but that is only a loose connection point.
CV(Contributor Value) is a complex value that is very confusing at times. It is confusing because the system was put into place to handle people buying up bundles to game the CV system to get access to higher level giveaways without the same cash that others had already put in. It is based on the value of a game at the current moment, this is why you can actually go down in CV over time as games lower their prices overtime.
I can agree that the asterisks are small and you really need to know to look for them, but I would hardly call it a Dark Pattern. To me, it lacks the major component of "Intentionality" (look I made up a word according to my spellchecker). I doubt the use of the asterisks are designed to mislead or misrepresent things. The designers were looking for a clean and effective way to adorn the games cleanly.
With all that, I agree that it could be made more clear on the game creation page and the review page that this game will get 0 or Reduced CV.
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I don't know if it's intentional or just a strange adaptation to the site over time, but all I can say is that it should be made more clear so that if someone is giving away a game that will earn them 0 or reduced CV, it should be made very clear in the review page, it is not, so that is where I feel some improvement should be made. The fact that it isn't there already seems kind of intentional and why I called this a dark pattern because someone made the decision to include the asterisks on the page, but the asterisks disappear as soon as you select the game, and if you didn't see them before typing the game, you will clearly miss the value of the game. This just makes it a bad experience for someone that wants to take part in the Contributor level game on this site and is inexperienced with the site mechanics.
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It might be bad design, but I highly doubt this design is intentionally deceptive, which is a key component to Dark Patterns.
Can you seriously answer this question: What do the site creators have to gain from this?
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I can appreciate wanting to make certain "gotchas" in the UI stand out more to make it harder for newbies to "shoot themselves in the foot" as it were. I can understand where as a new user, you might be less inclined to trust an unfamiliar system and that you might be frustrated with it not making sense, especially in areas where you think they could do better.
Like I said, if you have specific recommendations to improve UI/UX I am not necessarily opposed to them; it is the approach that I felt was unwarranted. The implication of your OP was that this was some sort of intentional act of misdirection; that is the only part I really took issue with. There's no need to ascribe malice when it is much more likely due to someone not having time/resources or not being a UI/UX guru. I'm probably extremely out of the loop on this, but last I checked there was a single developer for the entire site (cg) and it was a personal / community project, not something by a big company. I can understand how a project on the side can be a lot of work before pesky things like real life butt in. I appreciate all the work cg has put into just to keep the site up and going.
For the specific values of the Contributor Value (CV), you have to understand that it is a balancing act rather an act of misdirection. It is not a perfect system. I understand it is frustrating when you have something that you paid for and you get 0 CV when giving it away. But consider 2 things: (1) in the absence of SG, you still had already bought the games and were out the money and (2) how would you feel if you say paid $5 and got say 5 CV for whatever game and then next week it goes on sale and people buy it for $1 and get the same amount of CV while paying less. there have been shenanigans in the past where people would stock up on stuff during sales/bundles and then later when the price went back up, they would try to get full CV. maybe you'd be ok with that, but a lot of folks were not. it can be frustrating to have a game you bought full price go for zero CV. But is that the fault of the site for trying to balance things? Or steam/humblebundle/every other store for not providing APIs to tell exactly when and for how much someone bought a game? Or game devs for not just reducing their wares to sales prices year round? I don't think it's anybody's fault; it just is what it is.
Calling out things better in the UI is certainly one possibility. But the OP also doesn't consider that there are existing safeguards already in place. For instance, let's say you create a giveaway and realize after submitting that it will be for 0 CV. Last I checked, you can create a support ticket and have the giveaway canceled simply because you made a mistake. I'm not sure how this would work for very short-term (e.g. 1 hour) giveaways where it is likely the giveaway might have a winner before support can get to it, but from my own experience the moderators here have always been helpful and fair when it comes to things like this.
EDIT: By the way, if you really are more after improving the site and not just venting, then my advice would be to update the OP and add in specific URLs on the page(s) where you think improvements could be made, possibly also providing screenshots. If you are not familiar with how to do screenshots here, generally they are hosted externally on sites like imgur/etc, and the syntax is the same as markdown/reddit links but preceded by an exclamation mark: 
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So this is directed at people who don't bother to read the FAQ right?
Or people who just dont pay attention when they're making a giveaway?
I mean, that was the first thing I discovered and I'd only given away maybe 1 or 2 games before I actually read it, and it was Tabletop Simulator and Borderlands 2 kek.
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So, you support deceiving new players, as it's only fair because you yourself were deceived? That doesn't seem like a nice way to treat new users.
I actually did read the FAQ when I came here, and the problem with the FAQ is that it presumes they already know the mechanics of the site before reading the FAQ, which is a dark pattern. Let me ask you this, if you were brand new on this site, and you saw this FAQ question:
--- What are "No Value", "Reduced Value", and "Full Value" giveaways? How do they affect my overall contributor value? ---
Would you immediately know why were telling you about "No Value, Reduced Value, Full Value", if you hadn't seen it in the UI yet? I hadn't seen it in the UI because it's only in one very small place in the UI that only shows up and is valid to look over after you've made a giveaway. So, even after reading the FAQ I didn't know how it applied to what I was doing. And the little asterisk that shows up only works if you have the game show up for longer than a second or two. And the review page doesn't show this information at all. So, you can see, the decision to make the FAQ the way it is, and to design the new giveaways the way they are is explicitly designed using a DARK PATTERN such that the user thinks they are participating in the fun contributor level game on this site, when in reality they are not.
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How is it deceiving when you dont care how the site works by not bothering reading the FAQ and guidelines? And also dont bother to find out what no value or reduced value means after its to late?
Take som own responsibility instead of complaining about the site.
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I read the FAQ. The item in question is buried at the bottom, and it doesn't tell you how it applies to every single giveaway, it doesn't say that you need to watch out for asterisks in the create page, because it won't show up in the review page. It's designed to be deceptive, which is a dark pattern. You can waggle around your experience with the site all you like, I'm claiming this is a legitimate problem only for new users.
If you don't care to make the site pleasant for new users, and support deceiving new users, just say that you support dark patterns, and that'll be it. :)
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I searched for "contributor level" and "no value" in the FAQ but it still wasn't clear, it was only when I watched for the little game pop up in the create giveaway first page that I saw the relevant asterisk. Why doesn't that information show up in the "review giveaway" screen?
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Because it's already in the screen below it where you make the giveaway.
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support deceiving new users,
This is just outright lie. If site promised you will receive some CV and then you don't get it - it's deception. But I just checked giveaway creation process - it never says you will receive ANYTHING. You just assumed something, that was totally wrong, and now you accuse the site in being deceptive. Why you even expected to get something in return? Site is called steamgifts, and "gift" is something you give for free.
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the problem with the FAQ is that it presumes they already know the mechanics of the site before reading the FAQ
What is that even mean? :D You can't know a site's rules without reading them first. And if you don't really understand it you can always ask in the forum for clarification rather than being salty about doing stuff without reading.
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The FAQ answers a question that the user doesn't know to ask, and as a result, even if you read the FAQ you won't know about this mechanic on the site.
If someone doesn't know how something works, don't you think it should explain how it works before presuming the user knows all the right questions to ask?
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After looking all your comments i get a feeling you haven't even read it yet. :D I can get back UI can be better idea but there is no decieveing anywhere how hard you look.
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--- What are "No Value", "Reduced Value", and "Full Value" giveaways? How do they affect my overall contributor value? ---
Would you immediately know why were telling you about "No Value, Reduced Value, Full Value", if you hadn't seen it in the UI yet?
First sentense after the FAQ question you mentioned:
When creating a giveaway and selecting a game, you'll notice "No Value" games are marked with a double asterisk (**)
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Yes, because when I first made my GA that fell under this I immediately saw the astrisx and went hunting for what it meant. I then found out what it meant via the FAQ and understood. I've never had any problems with this, I've never felt cheated by this.
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Also, if you look at the image it's very clear for users to see the astrisx under the place where you enter what you want to giveaway, so even before you pick what game to give away you're met with the question "What does this red text correlate with?" You then read the FAQ, you go "Ohhh, I see." then the next time you want to buy a game to giveaway you type it in the Make a Giveaway slot first to see if its (*) or (**).
You don't claim ignorance as it's so easily put out even my autist brain can comprehend it.
You either give your games away or activate them, CV is not the most important thing here, it's the community. If you want to cry about CV then join a group so you dont need to worry about being a higher level CV to win more.
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This whole accusitory thread has turned into "Oh I was just trying to help." now that most of the replies to this are in the negatory.
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My new user experience is what I'm providing here, to help make the UI better. You can't get the new user experience from people who have been on the site for years and who understand all the ins and outs. When I've been working on sites in the past as a web dev, I always LOVED it when new users were willing to share their new user experience so I could learn from it and try to improve my UI in pages I was building. I was simply trying to share that here, and just by me saying it's a dark pattern doesn't mean it's intentionally bad, there may be a good reason it is like that, but seeing as I don't know if the actual developers are on here, I will reserve judgement in that area.
I even changed my original post to add some solid suggestions with mockups that I designed. I hope you can appreciate that at least.
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I honestly don't care about all that. In comparison to others with your suggestions 23 hours ago you were bordering on toxic with people here. I haven't even been here for a year yet, this website has not changed since I got here (apart from the removing of SGTrades and the Deals button) and I have understood the site just fine.
All suggestion been made for this website have been constructive and helpful, questions have raised issues and things have changed. All of these that have happened did not start with some twat that was half way to toxicroak capitalising Dark Pattern over and over again like it's a k-pop group and your a rabid 13 y/o fangirl.
You may have changed how you've said things now, but a lot of people here have seen your post and responded to be met with your immaturity towards the situation around 23 hours ago.
You might have provided good suggestions, you might not have, but at this point I'd rather hear them from someone else.
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If you don't care, then you are just here for a good ol' fashion internet fight. Cool, I'm gunna peace out then.
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I was here for the previous version of your original post. I was here to provide my view and my experience, being a new person by SG standards being that a lot of people have been here for years.
I'm here now because you're still replying to me, and it's only polite to finish what you started. Especially when the other person doesn't seem to consider all points of the debate that are being brought up, only the ones they are invested in.
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Dark pattern? Deceiving?
There's usually a way of people learning how something works. Read the rules, if any questions are left then ask people.
But coming at it as if there's some kind of evil intent behind hiding stuff or it's a deception - smh
This isn't a gambling site where you pay money to play. You can enter Level 0 GAs.
Or are you angry that your GAs were not worth a rise in Contributor level?
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I don't think this is a gambling site, and I'm not under some impression that I'm entitled to something just because I give away a game. I tried to learn how this works, and I read the available information to me, and then, due to the dark patterns in the UI, I did something that I didn't intend. I'm not angry by the way, I'm simply trying to help improve the experience for other new users because it was somewhat of a roundabout way to learn what was wrong. The UI doesn't help you with this, and the FAQ isn't terribly useful if you don't know what you are looking for.
I'm a new user, I'm relaying my experience to you in hopes that I can improve the experience for other new users. That's all I'm doing.
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I read some of your answers and this one for example stuck out to me "If you don't care to make the site pleasant for new users, and support deceiving new users, just say that you support dark patterns, and that'll be it. :)"
So, yeah, you did across as being angry and if someone having a different opinion than you means they are some kind of "dark pattern supporter" or worse then I find it hard to take you seriously.
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You yourself questioned why I would dare suggest that something be improved, suggesting that I didn't read the rules. I did read the rules and I tried to use the site. I used the term "dark pattern" as it's the term for that kind of design: "Dark Patterns are tricks used in websites and apps that make you do things that you didn't mean to, like buying or signing up for something." (or giving away something to play the game not knowing that certain things have more value than others)
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I wrote:
"But coming at it as if there's some kind of evil intent behind hiding stuff or it's a deception - smh"
I didn't write that you didn't read the rules. Nor did I ask why you would dare to make a suggestion.
Take a break. Your anger is apparent.
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You literally wrote:
"There's usually a way of people learning how something works. Read the rules, if any questions are left then ask people.
(emphasis mine)
I'm not here to internet argue, I just thought I'd make a suggestion, I had no idea I was stepping into a big pile of internet warriors ready to defend the status quo so passionately in the "Bugs/Suggestions" forum. :D
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"I had no idea I was stepping into a big pile of internet warriors ready to defend the status quo"
jeez
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and I'm not under some impression that I'm entitled to something just because I give away a game. I tried to learn how this works, and I read the available information to me, and then, due to the dark patterns in the UI, I did something that I didn't intend.You say you're not under the impression of being entitled to something but then you refer to doing something you didn't intend to do because why? Because you gave away games but didn't get any CV for them? So doesn't that mean the reason for giving away those games was because you believed that you would get something in return? Because that's exactly what it sounds like to me. You gave away games because you thought you'd raise your level with them but then found out that they were 0 CV games because they've previously been free and now you're blaming the lack of information even though it was available but you've clearly didn't bother to look at it.
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I wanted to participate in the game on this site, yes, it looked fun. I am sensing this discussion has devolved into a lets internet argue instead of talking about how to improve the site though. ;)
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But... the information is right there. Multiple people have pointed that out to you already yet you still pretend like someone tricked you in some way, shape, or form. You either want to give a game away or you don't, that's all there is to it. If you only focus on whether or not you get CV in return and raise your level then you're here for the wrong reason anyway, at least imo.
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If I want to give away a game for 0 CV, that's totally my choice, I have enough keys that I would have no problem doing that, but don't try to trick me by making a game with asterisks and points that don't mean anything in one context. I'm an adult, I can deal with that, I just want to know what I'm doing without any tricks. :)
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but don't make it looks like everything is hunky dory in the UI (except adding a mysterious * next to the title without a clear explanation), until when the user pops up a side menu to show No Value.
- Reduced value towards your contributor level.
** No value towards your contributor level.
This looks pretty clear to me. I'm not sure how much clearer you expect it to be.
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But the asterix disappears when selecting the game and I did it five times and I had even read the FAQ and missed this. The site is faulty. Dark pattern I tell you!
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You keep saying that people are encouraged to do something they don't want to do. What exactly is that supposed to be? Give away games? I mean, that's what this site is about if you haven't noticed, so if you create a giveaway isn't the whole purpose of it because you want to give a game away? I have no idea why you keep repeating that people are encouraged to do something they don't want to do when it really doesn't make any sense. People aren't forced to giveaway games. There are still plenty of giveaways that you can enter even if you don't give away a single game but a lot of people believe in the mentality of giving some and taking some and usually aren't very appreciative of people who only take but never give. Creating giveaways is optional and you keep saying that the CV aspect is just a fun game in addition to giving a game away yet you really seem to be stuck on the whole CV thing and some games simply not giving any. If you create giveaways because you expect to get something in return then maybe you're doing it for the wrong reason. I'm not going to get into the whole why games that have previously been free don't give any CV because anyone with a bit of common sense would understand the logic behind that decision.
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- I uh... thought this had to do with SG having a dark mode, or even "too many dark modes" when I read the title, haha. Go figure. -
Now while I am rather studious regarding rules and FAQ (and always paranoid about getting it wrong regardless), the CV system seemed pretty clear to me. Even if I didn't read or remember much, the * and ** remarks when creating a GA and looking for a game make it pretty clear, no? Then again maybe it depends where your priorities lie.
I mostly buy bundles with a few games I love and give the rest away here because I own them already or don't want them, and hope they make other people happy. I'd be lying if I didn't sometimes think "awww man, this game was free at one point?" but I still do even the 0 CV GAs because there's bound to be people out there needing it.
And it's just as valid to want to partake in SG for the contributor level as it is for just making people happy.
But what I don't see is how SG is deceiving. I looked at that Dark Pattern link but I just don't see the connection. It's not like the site is actively sabotaging anyone's progress, and the reduced and 0 CV games are, in the end, par for the course of "this is why we can't have nice things". Because if there was no need to worry about the users (not the site!) trying to exploit the system, there wouldn't even be a need for that. But sadly it is needed to curb on people running their bots on freebies or mass-buying bundes solely for e-points. But again, there is no deception. What you need to know about reduced CV value isn't written in white font on a white background or something. The information as to how and why things work as they work here is there, you just need to look for it. And, and this goes for pretty much any site you're new on, if you can't find it or are unsure about it, ask around for help. Tends to come across much better than accusations and conspiracy theories if you ask me.
I have not been indoctrinated to write this comment. XD
Wanting to improve this site, or any site, is a great thing. Wanting to make things more accessible is commandable. But, as with all things in life, it's the tone that makes the music (as we say here). Saying you ran into a problem trying to figure something out is one thing. Accusing the site of outright manipulation is another.
Cha-ching! My 0,02€ delivered.
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YMMV, I wanted to play the contributor level game here on this site, and it looked fun. I looked at all the patterns in the UI that led me to make the mistakes I made, and I made the judgement that it seemed like a dark pattern. For instance:
Why doesn't the No Value, Reduced Value, Full Value show up on the "Review Giveaway" page?
Why is the only place I can see the items that contribute to the Contributor Level a tiny number hover-over on my profile, it took me a little bit to find it. That seems intentional, don't you think?
I don't know what the intent of the designers of the site are, I'm just saying this is my experience as a new user and hopefully something positive can come from it.
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No its not intentional, nobody but you gain anything from your contribution level. Its also not a "game" as you call it.
The site has been functioning since 2011 and it fairly informs you on what * and ** means in the give-away creation screen its your fault not the sites fault if you do not read cerfully or just rush thru it, just like its your fault if you drive 60 in a 30 zone not the stop signs fault.
One would think in 2020 people need less hand holding and can actually look up information on their own but i guess i was mistaken.
Altho an official dark mode would be awesome, its again not the website light mode's fault you cannot or are un-willing to read.
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I do think your feedback can be a valuable contribution, as it is easy for long-standing users to forget what it was like starting out as a newbie on any site. It's just a matter of presentation I reckon, and of course even with the most deliberate careful wording it may be impossible to come across as non-agressive to everyone. Especially if not a native English speaker.
In the end I think if you want to bring attention to and change something, it's all a matter of tone. From some of the replies I read, and also just from the initial post, it came off as accusatory which tends to have people be on the defensive immediately. I do hope you didn't get too much drama or blacklisting over this, though.
Also, regarding places to look at your contribution, admittedly I've been using ESGST for so long that sometimes I forget what is and isn't a core part of the SG experience, so it's just as possible that my personal awareness of my own contribution level has a lot to do with that extension's usefulness, haha.
I do hope you get some insights and useful feedback on your own though, too! After all, the more people we are on SG the more awesome GAs we can have ^^
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Hey Verifex, welcome to Steamgifts! (I hope you don't introduce yourself to every new online community in quite this way!)
I think if we can get past the "dark pattern" conspiracy theory, there's actually a pretty solid suggestion embedded in this thread, that should be easy enough to implement.
Simply put:
SUGGESTION: Keep the asterisk(s) in place after a game has been selected on the giveaway screen.
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Even as small as it is, I think that would be a great change.
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Also, Hi Canis39!! :)
I'm a web dev, so I'm always thinking of web ui design and how to improve it on the sites I'm managing, so I guess that's where I'm coming from with suggestions like this. I'm always trying to avoid dark patterns in my professional career, and it's hard work sometimes, so I didn't mean to cast aspersions or anything. :)
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Well, I can tell you that it definitely came across as casting aspersions... and as you found, we take our little community pretty seriously around here! We also have some "experience bias" -- it's easy to forget what it felt like to be new to the site.
I've been here for 4 years. Based on my experience, I don't think the site admin and staff intended to be deceptive when describing CV. I do think it might be intentional that it's not front-and-center, because CV is really not what the site is about. It's about giving away games, period. CV and "leveling up" are just side effects. But there's really no deception involved. I had never heard of "dark patterns" but now that I've read a bit about them, I can say that in my opinion, there is nothing like that going around here. The site rules are definitely not always clear, but there's no malicious intent behind the lack of clarity.
The site can always do with some fresh eyes, so keep making suggestions -- just cut down on the conspiracy theories and you will probably get a warmer reception!
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Dark patterns are not conspiracy theories, they are just ways of nudging someone to do something that they might not otherwise do. It might not be intentional, but the creators of this site are guiding behavior of the users of the site to some degree, because it definitely doesn't highlight contributor level on the "Giving" side very much, although it's pretty prominently featured on the "Entering" side of giveaways, which is what made me pay attention to it at first. I think it wasn't clear based on reading anything on the site why a game is no value or reduced value, so I figured that I would get some flashing red warning about it, turns out all I got was a little red asterisk and I even missed that because it popped up so quick.
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I think it's a conspiracy theory if you assume that any unclear information on a website MUST be a "dark pattern."
If I understand dark patterns correctly, "deliberate intent to deceive" seems to be the key component.
If a site is simply not great at posting clear information, that doesn't necessarily imply that they're hiding something intentionally, or attempting to guide user behavior.
In this case, points to enter giveaways is different from contributor value that's gained from hosting giveaways. They're related, sure -- but they're not the same.
All users need to understand points -- since ENTERING giveaways is the primary activity promoted by this site -- so that information is prominently featured.
NOT all users will need to understand contributor value -- since HOSTING giveaways is an optional part of the site -- so that information is not featured as prominently.
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Alrighty, I added some edits to my original suggestion at the behest of zpangwin,, with images of what I want to suggest, check em out and see what you think. I think arguing about what is a dark pattern and what is unintentional isn't really constructive without the original developer here to defend themselves! LOL ;)
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I feel like you used a thesaurus to enhance your post with premium words to really kick up the level of insults you leveled at me, and for that I cannot be mad. I love big words. Anyways, I have never heard of this ESGST thing before, and that is exactly the kind of thing an experienced user would know about. Maybe I will install that. I have maintained some sophisticated userscripts for sites before, maybe I could help out with this one. Anyways, see you around!
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Exactly my opinion. OP is going on about that "dark pattern" bs (really, if you can't read and understand the FAQ/rules, don't blame the website, blame the user) - This could be a great suggestion thread to improve the website, instead of complaining about the website attempting to "deceive" new users despite all the info being clearly stated multiple places.
If we look past this bit of nonsense, I do agree that there is logic in the suggestion you are making. It would make more sense to have the asterisks there than on the selection dropdown menu, but having it on both also works fine.
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Some people have way to much time on their hands. 😅
When I first joined here.. I googled something like "alternative to indiegala gifts" or something. Cause I couldn't stand that site.
Clicked the link - came here - and took 30 min to look around and read the FAQ.
Never once have I struggled with any of this.
I think it wasn't clear based on reading anything on the site why a game is no value or reduced value
It's clear as night! ( I don't care for days )
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Others have said this before, the thing with the asterisk is not a dark pattern. There is no "encouragement" there or deception. It doesn't misinform the user. Dark patterns are about deliberate intent to decieve someone to act against their self interest. That is very very far from what SG does.
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make it very clear how much your system values the game UP FRONT
This requirement is impossible to fulfill. Games added to bundle and free games list manually (and there is no way to reliably automate it), so in most cases this thing is retroactive, in best case - by a few hours, in worst case - it can be even years.
So, we have two choices: allow users to abuse CV system (that's what you would like probably) or make it not 100% clear how much CV you will receive.
But it can't be considered a dark pattern, grey at worst, because nobody encourages you to gift games. On top of it, this site is not about CV, it's about gifting. It's not a competition, it's charity. You want to share games? Go ahead. You want to abuse site to get more games? Well, if that's your intention - sure, you will get troubles. So, even if we use your terminology - site has dark patterns only for abusers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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In my opinion, the CV levels are here for cosmetic reasons mainly.
Just look at the giveaways created here: https://www.steamgifts.com/stats/community/giveaways (Per Level chart)
And compare it to the user level chart here: https://www.steamgifts.com/stats/community/users (Per Level chart)
Bottom line is if you want to gift something, gift it. Don't expect anything in return.
(Heh, I gave away 50 games last week, I got 33 messages of "thank you". 16 people didn't bother to acknowledge they got a free game.......)
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I looked at the hall of shame on that dark patterns website you linked, and it seems like quite a few of them are just people clicking the giant button without taking two seconds to read what it clearly says and realizing that isn't what they want ("it took me 3 times to realize I was always going backwards" is my favorite). So yeah, maybe this does qualify as a dark pattern after all. ☺
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i understand you want something this site does not have or lack of and i know it's not a proper thing to suggest to new users before full core understanding but there are addons that can help you in this cv regard or what cv you will get for your giveaway.
for example, https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/TDyzv/extension-userscript-enhanced-steamgifts-steamtrades-esgst-v872 ESGST addon may add this to your review page: https://i.imgur.com/v9KHiPD.png
as a fellow web developer i can tell by like 99% certainty that free time made websites could lack in some aspects. i don't know it for sure but i am pretty sure this is not a full time job for cg to improve and maintain this site. Improvements come pretty rarely (not that we need a lot) and that's where addons come in to help users in aspects of the site where it could be improved.
and please use site a bit longer just to throw accusations, people here are kinda protective of this site ;)
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The whole idea of this site is that you can raffle games and the more you raffle, the higher level you get. Seems cool and simple.
The problem seems to be that the site encourages people to giveaway items that give them no credit towards the mysterious "contributor level". This is a DARK PATTERN user interface design. ( https://darkpatterns.org/ )
I think I had to dig deep into the FAQ to find some vaguely worded text about how some games aren't actually worth anything even though they have a (10P) or (50P) next to them in the UI on this site.
If you want to devalue games listed in bundles: https://www.steamgifts.com/bundle-games/ and discourage people from giving away these games (for what reason I'm not entirely sure) that is fine, but don't make it looks like everything is hunky dory in the UI (except adding a mysterious * next to the title without a clear explanation), until when the user pops up a side menu to show No Value. The P system on this site seems like a valuable system for valuing a game. If you want to devalue a game, make it very clear how much your system values the game UP FRONT, don't try to conceal this information using little asterisks and other DARK PATTERNS in the user interface.
If this site wants to encourage people to give away games, and some games are from bundles, maybe try grouping all the bundle games together in easily collapsible groups, so they don't spam the list? That would avoid some of the problems of spamming the site without resorting to dark patterns.
EDIT: After numerous discussions, I think I can narrow this suggestion down to a few suggestions to help avoid this problem in the future:
Suggestion 1: Make asterisks show up after game is selected like this https://i.imgur.com/t7LEcXf.png
Suggestion 2: Make the review giveaway page show the same asterisk (for consistency) so people understand what's going on. https://i.imgur.com/26McpTV.png
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