Are you going to get MH:W?
I was looking forward to buying this game.
wasn't even going to wait for a sale, was just going to buy it full price . which is something I have only done with 3 games on the PC so far. but then I found out it has Denuvo.
only way I am buying this game now Is if they decide to remove Denuvo at some point .
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It is definitely a strong deterrent. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I never bought games with denuvo, because I think I have a couple in my library. A couple I won here, one or two were in bundles, and I didn't realize MGS: Phantom Pain had it when I bought it. That said, I do try to wait until they remove it before I buy. This steam curator is pretty good for seeing which games have denuvo, if you're following them it shows up when you're on the store page: Steam Curator: Denuvo Games
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Just one of the many lies about Denuvo you will find on the internet.
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No, I think it wasn't. There were exceptions. Bad implementations, like Rime. But the general statement that "Denuvo impacts performance" is not proven at all. There was even evidence against it. If I remember correctly the Total War Warhammer devs said they measured the performance impact and couldn't find any. As far as I know you will not find any proof of that for the vast majority of Denuvo games.
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FFXII Zodiac Age use Denuvo and I have no problem with it
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To be honest if you are really worried about Denuvo, you probably shouldn't play online games as most anticheat software behaves like a rootkit. I'd easily install something with Denuno before I would put something with Gameguard or Punkbuster on my pc, which are 2 of the most intrusive 3rd party anticheats out there. In my opinion in house anticheats are much better than a lot of these 3rd party ones.
So to answer the question, no Denuvo wouldn't stop me in the slightest. The anticheat they pick could be a dealbreaker though.
Speaking of anticheat software, does anyone know what Monster Hunter World will be using? I'm hoping it's going to be in house and not the 2 mentioned.
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malware-level DRM
I think this is simply wrong. We had DRM in the past that was a lot worse (like Starforce). Most of what you read on the internet about Denuvo is simply wrong, in some cases even an intentional lie. Like the idea that Denuvo breaks SSDs. People actually faked screenshots and videos, just to discredit Denuvo.
For the most part Denuvo will not influence your experience at all. So even if i think we would all be better off without any copy protection and DRM, Denuvo is not something I feel the need to boycott.
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Well, since Denuvo is the next generation product of the people responsible for SecuRom and the Sony rootkit fiasco, I don't think it is as simple as that.
And, even without that heritage, Denuvo has a lot of sketchy practices:
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leaves files behind when uninstalling products
I doubt that. Do you have any proof for that? What I remember is that people found in the ToS a statement like "files may remain on the computer after uninstall". What did they do? They went on the forums and told people that Denuvo actually does install files that don't get uninstalled. While in fact it only said "may" and to my knowledge there was never any actual report about files that weren't uninstalled. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But so far this is just one more silly rumor that people easily take for a fact, because they hate Denuvo anyway.
it is a third party software that gets installed without a licence agreement
I am kind of sure I saw Denuvo mentioned in license agreements of the games that use it. Also, it is not a seperate piece of software that gets installed. From what I remember it is built in the binaries of the game. The developer sends his source code to Denuvo, they then analyse the code at runtime and look for functions where Denuvo checks can happen periodically without much impact on performance. The end result is a exe file (or dll's) with Denuvo calls in it. Which also makes it pretty unlikely that there will be something left of it after uninstallation.
some games do not mention the use of denuvo
How is that Denuvo's fault?
not acknowledging it is a drm
Who cares what they call themselves. I certainly don't. That doesn't have anything to do with what the software does and how it influences our gaming experience.
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1 - Check the FAQ at denuvo webpage, they explicitly tell you they leave files on your computer:
Depending on the game, one Denuvo-related file may be left on your computer after you uninstall the game. However, this file is inert and you can either manually delete it or leave it on your system without it affecting your PC in any way.
2 - not all games mention the use of denuvo on their eula and in the cases they do you just accept the use of denuvo, not what denuvo does to your computer and with your data.
3 - you are right, it is not denuvo's fault but it makes me not trust it :)
4 - trying to mislead people into thinking they are not a drm has many advantages, including its presence not being mandatory on the steam store, unlike other drm.
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Check the FAQ at denuvo webpage, they explicitly tell you they leave files on your computer
No, they don't. They also say "may" there. Also, if we are talking about a single inert (!) file, what exactly is the problem then? Countless games and apps leave files behind, and that was never a big issue for anyone. We have to make a distinction between programs that leave active code behind (like a service, for instance) and programs that just leave a single inert file somewhere in your users folder. The former is something you could rightfully complain about. The latter is really not a problem at all and might even make sense, because it might be used once you install the next Denuvo game. Like many programs leave their settings in the users folder or the registry, so that they are available for the next time. Really not a big deal. It doesn't mean Denuvo keeps transmitting data even when uninstalled or anything like that (which of course is what some people assume when they read that Denuvo "can*t be completely uninstalled").
2 - not all games mention the use of denuvo on their eula and in the cases they do you just accept the use of denuvo, not what denuvo does to your computer and with your data.
I don't know enough about that to give a good answer here. All I can say is that if you include third party software in your software in this way (no seperate installer), it is your responsibility to include that in your EULA. So I would still say if there is an EULA where Denuvo is not mentioned, that is not the fault of Denuvo. The developers of the game have to take care of that.
3 - you are right, it is not denuvo's fault but it makes me not trust it :)
Seems strange, it should make you not trust the devs, not Denuvo. :)
4 - trying to mislead people into thinking they are not a drm has many advantages, including its presence not being mandatory on the steam store, unlike other drm.
I guess you can argue about this. Is it a Digital Rights Management system or not? DRM means there is a user who has the right to use that piece of software. Steamworks DRM makes sure that only the right Steam user is able to run a certain game. Denuvo doesn*t really do that. They try to prevent you from tampering with the exe file. Now we know they use unique hardware keys to do that. You could of course argue that this is already something like an account. A user identifying key. If this is anonymous data, is it really comparable to a user account then? It's debatable, I guess. Nevertheless, I really don't think this is a valuable part of the discussion. I think how Denuvo works and what impact it has is infinitely more relevant than what name we want to use to describe its type of software.
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4 - trying to mislead people
I just want to add something I had to think of when I read the word misleading. Because I am not even a big fan of Denuvo and similar systems. I wish they would all just vanish and be gone for good. I think those systems probably have little to no benefit (hard to say), and certainly no benefit for the customer.
But the fact that so many people (not you) on the internet keep lying and exaggerating about Denuvo makes me wanna defend it. I feel there is almost no place for valid, contructive criticism left, because all the internet is already full with this exaggerated image of Denuvo as the worst piece of software ever. You write "mislead". Well, the internet misleads about Denuvo a lot. Do a google search for Denuvo, and you will find more misleading articles and forum threads than actual correct information. People go out of they way and fake evidence, just so they can paint this picture of the devil Denuvo. I find this absolutely disgusting. Dishonest. That's why I always end up defending a piece of software I don't even like. ^^
We should work with facts. Nothing else. No rumors, no lies, no exaggerations. This is the only way we can have a meaningful discussion about it.
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Fair enough :)
Our perspective on this topic is probably a lot closer than what our exchange initially indicated and I totally agree there's a lot of fearmongering over Denuvo, with no factual basis. It gets this kind of hate probably because of its early success against piracy.
For me, however, it is a matter or trust. And a company (or the successor as is the case) that previously installed malware on my system gets zero leeway from me, especially if I feel they are being purposely misleading, not completely open, and remain vague about their product and its implications. That was the logic behind my initial post.
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I'm going to wait the bad critics of the game. See if the price drops enough on resellers, see if the game actually performs good or is bad as people are saying by now.
If its good and cheap, yes. If its bad and cheap, no... Actually no is winning as everyone says performance is really really bad, like MortalKombat X port.
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I do not touch anything with denuvo (or other Draconian DRM).
It is a matter of principle and it really makes no difference if I really want the game or not. I have enough games on my backlogs to last me a long time.
But go for it if you think it will make you happy. That's what gaming is for :)
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I have zero interest in MHW, but Denuvo is not a problem to me.
Beware that apparently the PC version is horribly optimized.
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Denuvo honestly isn't really as terrible as people make it out to be. The issues that have arisen from Denuvo (considering how many games have it in, it's a very small amount) are from the devs fault for not implementing it correctly, AKA not the intention of the actual software or the fault of the software itself.
The issue of the games "always connecting to the internet" is bs because it doesn't unless that's what the dev has set. On steam for example it connects once while downloading which you need internet for anyway, and then you're good to play it offline whenever.
There's a ton of misinformation spread about Denuvo and people really need to read up more about what it actually does instead of just boycotting every single game that has it in. Would you rather we go back to the days of SecuRom which was actual hell and that was fully down to the issue of an incredibly shitty DRM? Or rather devs make their own DRM like that one Sonic game where the dev made actual malware for the DRM?
I personally don't care much about Monster Hunter so I probably wont pick up the game. But Denuvo doesn't sway my opinion on the games themselves anyway. It's not the greatest, sure, but it's really not as "malicious" as people say, that's just taking it way out of proportion.
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Hey, good point, but have you considered you could be misinformed yourself, like I could be as well?, I mean, how do you know or better yet, it may SEEM you're implying that ALL games on steam (that use Denuvo) would only conect ONCE and then we're good to play offline whenever. Really? cause I've seen people complaining about not being able to play the game -that uses Denuvo- they purchased because it couldn't connect so therefore couldn't validate the encrypted/mambojambo stuff it does to FINALLY let you play.
Also, we should consider that not everyone have 24/7 lightning speed internet, or even electricity satability, I personally know 2 steam friends who live/play getting disconnected every now and then, multiple times a day, without counting the Denuvo issues.
The main issue with Denuvo, then, for those like you that don't villify the thing, it's not as much as it's intention rather the poor execution.
An extra layer chalked up inthere in the product/service? you bought and hope to play, because you know, pirates gonna pirate...
Look at CDPR The Witcher 3, yes I keep mentioning it, because it's true. No shitty Denuvo, quite decent performance even tho it had some issues at launch, like 9 of 10 games nowadays, unfortunately.. Devs didn't forced verification/alwaysonline BS and it sold pretty good! they're now developing -what we hope to be- another sweet gem of rpg games, Cyberpunk 2077 -whenever be released-
Anyways, getting outside the topic, sorry. I've played and own a few Denuvo games like Rise of Tomb Raider, a friend family-shared it to me and it ran fine. I've also own and played Assassins Screed Origins, it had pretty nasty performance, not only Denuvo but VM layer on top, plus the Uplay drm AND Steam's so yeah.. but then again it got better in future patches. While the VM-layer, Denuvo and voksi testings debacle, I read from multiple sources that the game did infact worked better without all that crap, so what do the caped defenders had to say about it then, huh?
I get it, companies love money, they live and die for it so if it "buys" them days, weeks, months, before someone somewhere bypass their protection they still got sales from people who wouldn't risk it using shady files, from those who couldn't wait any longer and caved it, or even those that didn't had a powerful pc to actually run the games and after an upgrade bit the bullet and bought the games at cheaper prices. The Denuvo game is time, nothing wrong with that. Unfortunatelly, they don't care about performance, which is my main issue, so should be ours. Want to protect your investment? as an insurance, right? FINE, but just don't take hostage my hardware, my internet access (or even quota), and not to mention my spare time. If I can't play when I have an opening because Denuvo can't synch, can't verify I'm still the rightful owner despite being logged in in steam, running a uplay drm and jumping through too much hoops, then we all have a problem.
I'm not advocating for piracy, but the pro's may seem too good to pass on, read: play whenever you want to play, run the shortcut and you're gaming, no BS, no delays, no annoying pop ups with dots or circles waiting to allow you to play. Pirates were never the problem, implementation is.
BTW, you're right about the SecuRom times, but we shouldn't "go back in time" but to move forward, to build upon the past, to improve. Why can't they be better game? Do it right and we'll be right there with you! is that too much to ask? please guys don't f my time or rig! really?
Hope I didn't offended you or anyone, but you knowing the community, never know...
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Yes, it is possible that I have been misinformed myself, since I've tried to stay away from all this Denuvo nonsense. I never claimed "every" game would connect once, however looking over SEGA's FAQ (http://www.sega.com/denuvo) on this it seems to just back up my original point.
Will games with Denuvo require you to be always online?
No. Games will require initial online authentication via Steam during installation. At this point Denuvo will also automatically authenticate. You can then decide to play in offline mode if you wish. Some games sometimes need to be always online, but this isn’t a Denuvo requirement.
I haven't seen anyone complain about denuvo specifically letting players play a fully offline game offline, but this could be me avoiding people's verdicts on it and instead actually just looking at the thing itself. If the game itself connected to the internet at launch, I haven seen cases of people blaming Denuvo for that when in fact it was actually just the game itself.
CDPR are a unique bunch though and have my full respect (Especially after CP77's E3 trailer, boy was that an amazing time with the codes and mini-ARG). However just because one company did it doesn't mean every single other one will, that's just how the world works. For example, they even said CP77 won't have any microtransactions or paid extra content since it's just going to be released as a full game from the start. That's something I really don't expect other companies to do now a days haha.
I have played multiple Denuvo games myself, and recently I got a copy of Origins. I have litually never had a single issue or any noticeable problems with any Denuvo game I've played. I've had issues with games themselves, but nothing has been down to Denuvo. Origins for example, I got a Uplay key for it so it's not through steam as well (Free key from an Intel giveaway), but yeah no, it runs like a charm. Of course, I run it through GeForce NOW since I'm currently not able to use my main PC and instead have to use a crappy laptop, but that shouldn't affect it at all. If Denuvo wanted to break something it still would.
But, this is just my experience and I get that others could have issues. It is software on PC after all, you cannot expect every single piece of software to work on every single possible combination of hardware, and then there's software differences ontop. It's the reason PC gaming has more issues compared to consoles, since there's just too many variables between computers.
no annoying pop ups with dots or circles waiting to allow you to play
I don't understand what you mean by this, is this something Denuvo does? Since I've never seen it myself. I've never had any Denuvo-related popups or anything like that, I've never seen anything Denuvo related popup. I could be wrong and just have been blind at points, but I can say I don't recall ever seeing anything like it.
For Piracy, Denuvo does infact slow down the time a game gets cracked by a LOT. But, it is the internet and people do find a way around it eventually. Nothing can ever be 100% secure, and Denuvo currently is the "best" in that regards which is why so many companies are using it.
There's a lot more I haven't brought up, like everything people have made up with the sole intent of discrediting Denuvo. The myth that Denuvo "ruins" drives and a few other things. Calling it "malware-level" is just blowing it way out of proportion, and the issue is that the more people that do that, just spread more negativity about it. Sure, it's not perfect, not like anything can be. However, at least from what I have read and know from my own experiences and from my friends' experiences as well, we've never had any issues surrounding Denuvo itself.
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Thank you, I'll admit I came in here today to delete my above comment, part for the possible backfire part because most times I just can't seem to help writting walls of text none have to swallow or even reply, so thank you.
I'd agree with almost everything you said, I didn't meant you assured it was like you said it was, just that it could be interpreted that but it could also be a language barrier hah.
I meant -in a generic way- to the pop ups and messages that people use to screenshot and share for in-game sync errors, how they expect to play and either the game's servers or Denuvo verification thing would not work as intended. That's about it.
I don't recall experiencing it myself, at least in the few games I played using Denuvo.
The performance in AC Origins, like I mentioned, was pretty bad but I think it's nice now. Think of Batman Arkham Knight which I also own even tho I'm not sure it uses Denuvo. Perhaps that was just a really poorly made port and has nothign to do with Denuvo.
I also never had an SSD destroyed so far -NOCK ON WOOD!- so I may just letting myself be alarmist and pesimistic, so there's that. I did personally experience the difference between a game running with Denuvo and the same game without it, so that particular point still stands at least in my book.
I consider I have a more than decent pc, so when I experience this I feel entitled to be a little bit mad. I'm no dev so I can't fix it nor can I test, probe and show proof Denuvo is the culprit. But yeah their hands don't look clean to me.
TL;DR: Agreed, it's entirely possible that the whole thing is blown out of proportion, sure, but every myth is based on a true fact.
Companies don't care about performance until shherrstuff hits the fan and splashes them, then they improve it. Maybe.
Why can't they just give us that from the start? security without compromising performance, day 1.
Poll head is Denuvo is a deal breaker, btw, 176 people so far, so there's that...
Sorry, tried to keep it short, I could just delete all this and call it a day but I think you were rational and not just a blind fanatic defending the big D just because :P
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Ah no worries haha, even though English is my native tongue I normally end up struggling to explain myself properly in a way people actually understand.
The thing about drives though has been 100% dis-proven by so many people though BTW :P And Arkham Knight was just one of the worst ports I think I've ever seen and that, at least to my knowledge, was just down to the game itself.
I fully expected after I made my initial comment to have replies of people just crapping on me for saying anything that wasn't pure negativity towards Denuvo so it was lovely to actually have a rational conversation with someone haha.
I guess this whole back and forth will never end until something better overtakes Denuvo in both security and any negative issues.
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True! (this won't be a long one, I promise!)
Something could happen, but you know what? people will still complain, heck I probably will too XD
We'll always find something to disagree, I'm glad you're just not one of them.
Nice talking to you, hope you're having a nice sunday!
Be well, Skylarkblue1 don'tbeWalterWhitewifepleasedon'tbeWalterWhitewife
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Well you know the old saying, you'll never make everyone happy at the same time haha.
Hope you're having a lovely Sunday as well ^^ Also nice reference :P Not quite what my name was going for, but kinda funny now that you mentioned it haha.
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People say Denuvo is bad, but I'm not aware of what Denuvo is or does.
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So I checked the Monster Hunter: World on Steam and lo and behold it features Denuvo, a well known malware-level DRM. So far I managed to steer clear of Denuvo games, but after having the game hyped up to me by some friends who own PS4 I'm strongly considering getting it regardless of that. I guess it all depends how good the PC edition is in the end?
Complimentary GA: https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/N5vSH/divide-by-sheep
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