You can contact them in time when they win, than it is 7 days.
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Apparently not. Apparently the counter resets when you reach out to the winner and again when you place the reroll request after another week. According to the moderator I was dealing with. Making it up to 21 days potentially.
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That was my recent recent answer on reroll ticket. Apparently you just need to proof when did you sent key. Which is problematic as on sg sent key shows no time. Neither it can proof you haven't had it hidden for 6 days.
Hello xxxka.
Could you please provide some proof that you attempted to contact the winner? We need two of the following in following order:
A screenshot of the sent key on the giveaway winner page in case of key giveaway.
Link to a comment in the winner's public giveaway or Steam profile comment section with information key is available to the winner.
If 2nd option is not available - screenshot of a sent email with the winner's email and timestamp visible.
If a key is visible, be sure to hide part of the key before you do so.
Standard procedure in case they contact us about it.
It is not possible to upload images on SteamGifts, you should use image hosting website of your choice. Imgur, ibb.co or Lightshot will work. Post the link here and make sure webpage language is set to English, as we can't translate screenshot content.
Thanks in advance.
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Jah. The screenshot thing is standard to help make sure it's a legit moderation request. The timestamp part is the part being used to reset the winner's counter and the counter for the reroll requests. If you're using the gift function, then I imagine they'd need the timestamp, but if you're using the key function (which is what I do), mods can see when it was sent already.
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With steamgift I am not sure how to prove it. You need to send friend request to give. But how do you prove your request is pending for 7 days if you haven't commented on profile?
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I guess you'd have to take a screenshot of the friend request pending right after sending the friend request. Which would give you a timestamp. I'm guessing it's not on the forefront of a person's thoughts though since you'd expect there wouldn't be any problems with trying to give someone a game.
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That's why I always send an email in such cases. One of the safest option to use as proof for mods, and also, I don't have to add someone to my steam friend list, comment on their profile, only for the friend request to get rejected (yes, that happens a lot for me), and then have to comment on their public GA to accept my request.
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It is MOST frustrating. Almost to the point that it outweighs my desire to give keys away. I put in hours each week, preparing the giveaways and then reviewing profiles (hear and at Steam) to make sure that no one is gaming the system. Then if a key doesn't work or the user claims it didn't work (and this is fraud easily accomplished) with much proof at all, SG says that I should buy and gift a new key - because that is what is written in the rules. The same rules say that a winner has 7 days. Period. But with all that the gifter has already put into a give away, to get a reroll... the gifter now has to jump through hoops. I am sorry that is a good bit ridiculous.
If the key is not reclaimed, the reroll. should. be. automatic. because that is in the rules - [perhaps with a 24 hour grace period for a key given late in the 7 days]. The exception, of course, would be unless the recipient (bots and all) creates a ticket showing that the key was not given in time (perhaps after 5 days). The recipient should have the burden for some part of this, after all.
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Agreed. When you put that much effort into hosting a giveaway, it should be treated with more respect. The site thrives on giveaways. That should be incentivized by making the process more respectful of the giveaway host's time.
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So true.
I hate how gifters are treated, and how the winners are almost never punished when they are in the wrong (I specially mean the bots, resellers, etc).
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+1 It is actually absurd that it's the gifter's job to chase after the winner so they redeem their win. If you don't claim it, you lose your win, that should be it.
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This is the reason why I did stop doing giveaways some years ago. Doing giveaways became a hassle and too often a negative experience so I ended up stopping. It sucks.
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I stopped doing public giveaways because of all the negative experiences that came with it.
Here are a few of the worst examples:
A) One of my winners got the key, sold it on a grey market site or gave it to a friend or activated it on an alt account and claimed that my key was invalid. I couldn't prove the contrary, so I decided to live with a "Not received".
B) A few years back, there was a thread in which an experienced user listed a fool proof, step by step method you have to do to exploit the gifters and as a winner get away with either claiming a won key on an alt account or selling the key on the grey market and forcing the gifter to get a second working key.
This thread was what broke the camels back for me and I stopped doing public giveaways in general.
C) Although I stopped doing general public giveaways, I bought a full price game - 50 Euros - to give away in one of the community trains. The winner had a broken GPU and couldn't play the game. He promised to buy a new GPU within the next six months. Now, more than two years later, he still has ZERO SECONDS playtime within the game. 50 Euros down the toilet.
This was the last public giveaway I have ever done and I won't do anymore in the future.
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I have not been here as long as you, but 100% what you say. A few times, I have come close to dumping my remaining keys and walking away from SG.
The trouble the gifters must go thru followed by the all the trouble we must go thru when a gift is not marked as received, the strong suspicions of keys be redeemed by friends or alt accounts and then claimed as "dupe" keys, the attitude of some (certainly NOT all) moderators that make the gifter feel like the guilty party rather than the victim... all while little (and at times it seems nothing) is done to make our life easier and to hold the recipients accountable... all contribute to a huge burden on the life blood of this site - those who provide the giveaways.
I can only surmise that there are either enough who are less bothered than I have been or there are enough new people joining and giving because SG seems to be going strong after many years. But I am being pushed away from public giveaways... and.. it.. breaks.. my... heart because I like giving what I can.
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+1, I got winner that would only response to your contact at last minute, but online 24/7 according to their profile both from site and steam.
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I suggest you be careful of phrasing it as 'you won' as you could get flagged as spam, or blocked by that user.
My phrasing would be something like "the SG Space Cat has something for you."
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This is why I try contacting the winner 48 hours after I send the key, minimizes the time for a reroll.
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I always thought that was a sign of impatience, but I guess it's actually just practical to do so.
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its a bit of both.
this thread did remind me to go check on my PPU winner, almost gave them an entire extra week more than required(December has to much going on to track this stuff >>)
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I've never understood why we have to contact giveaway winners at all. I mean, isn't that why there is a seven day period for them to activate their wins in the first place? Seems like overkill and designed to coddle autojoiners and bots. I don't bother to chase them down anymore - life is too short. I just let the win sit there until they finally get around to it and then onto my blacklist they go.
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^ This.
Specially if you see they log in daily but don't bother to activate the key. There's a "redeem" button in the won page next to it.
Seven days passed = automatic reroll.
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Not to mention that Steamgifts itself sends an email to the winner notifying them of their win. If the winner ignores that official email, they'll almost surely ignore the gifter's email.
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You can turn it off though.
Imho - the fact, that there is flashing icon in upper section of the site is enough as notification. If one week is too much for somebody to notice it, then it should be re-rolled by default and user marked as possible bot account
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I agree. This requirement made some sense before SG mailed notifications to all winners. But now? Absolutely not.
And cg insisting to still bother giveaway creators certainly isn't motivating. Our time should be worth at least as much as that of winners who simply don't care.
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+1, if they use the site, they will get a popup notification that they won a game. Then there will always be a blinking red icon on the top of the page letting them know that they have a win that needs to be activated. If they are not an active user that has been to the site in the past 7 days or is using the site, but can't be bothered to activate their win, they clearly are not that interested in the game and I would rather it went to someone else who might appreciate it more. I will still request a reroll after 7 days, but I don't feel like it is my job to track the person down.
Maybe being active on the site should be a rule for winning. If you have not been on the site in 7 days or have won a game, but chose not to activate it for 7 days, you forfeit your win and a new winner can be selected. It wouldn't be automatic though because there can be situations where it may take longer than 7 days and I think that is fine if you are in contact with the winner.
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It's very easy.
The info from the junior mod is WRONG
Two junior mods told this exact same (text) to one of my group members too and pushed her nearly in a crazy mode.
A senior mod handled then the ticket and the reroll got approved without a "extra waiting time".
I am sure the junior mods try their best but should be trained better with the handling of the reroll rules because it is obvious very needed.
At the begin on sg i wrote in steam profile comments (which can lead to suspensions on steam nowadays), wrote emails, wrote in old GAs (if they done at least 1 public one) and it was always only extra work for me, with no gain, and no appreciation from the winners (thanks or something like that, forget it.... if reactions then only negative ones).
Then i switched to the bare minimum because why should the gifters spend more of their lifetime for all the autojoiners, cheaters and people that aren't able or willing to claim their wins after max. 1 week? (On top to the spend money for the GA and the time for creating the GA etc.)
The winners get informed from sg per email, if they don't disabled it, and they have the blinking red message at the top.
After 6 days are over i write in a old GA of them and inform about the win and screenshot this contact try, after the 7th day are over i open a reroll ticket, after that i delete the key that it can't be claimed anymore before the reroll is approved and i NEVER had problems this way in all the years with hundreds of reroll tickets.
So not 14, not 21 days not whatever else, they have 7 days, counted from the moment they got picked as winner, to claim the win.
End of the story
Ps.: If a mod write it or not, i wouldn't try to contact a winner with at least 2 ways and whatever else (as in xxxka's mod text above written). Total overkill. Before i do such stuff i do only GAs for my group and WL (or stop to do GAs in general).
The timestamp is "XX:XX o'clock, win day of the GA", absolute unimportant when I contacted the winner ON TOP to the 2 sg messages/informations.
Pps.: If the handling of the reroll tickets changed so massively in the last few months then someone should inform the members about it.
In this case i will only do GAs for my group and my WL in the future or stop with doing GAs completely (and i am sure i wouldn't be the only one). Which would damage the site and bring no gain but whatever floats your boat.
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I like your approach.
And I agree of course.
It was a first for me, as far as a mod making the reroll process unnecessarily difficult.
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Two junior mods told this exact same (text) to one of my group members too and pushed her nearly in a crazy mode.
A senior mod handled then the ticket and the reroll got approved without a "extra waiting time".
I am sure the junior mods try their best but should be trained better with the handling of the reroll rules because it is obvious very needed.
If you have such example then you should make Other ticket, so I can check it. It would clearly mean someone made a mistake, and it needs to be looked into. If you talk about something that happened 9-11 months ago after people just joined, it will clearly not be fair to bash juniors for making a mistake. If it was something recent - that's a different matter.
I, and other more senior mods, spent a lot of time the past months to guide and explain how we work in support. I don't want your message about some incident from (potentially) 11 months ago to make it looks like juniors are incompetent.
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1.) I spoke about 2 junior mods that handled a reroll ticket, exactly, the way as shown above from DeliberateTaco and xxxka and not from all.
2.) I clearly don't bashed someone because i wrote "I am sure the junior mods try their best... but (a part of them) need more training".
3.) The case i spoke about is from 2 months ago and Eefrit handled the ticket in the end and i assumed that he spoke then with the 2 junior mods about the right handling.
But because the text that Taco and xxxka shared are exactly the words that this 2 junior mods used i assume that one or both of the the same junior mods are involved with Taco and xxxka (or somewhere is a bad template stored that the junior mods use then).
The ticket link: https://www.steamgifts.com/support/ticket/rWEg5/realms-of-chaos
Or if it give problems with the link and you are ok with it, i can send you screenshots of the ticket, because they are posted on discord.
For additional questions feel free to contact the ticket writer.
Ps.: One of the junior mods i speak of is since a long time a friend of me on discord, so i don't have some negative feelings or whatever could be interpreted (wrongly) into my intentions.
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Senior mod cited in the ticket phrasing that was in place 3 years ago "within one week of the giveaway closing", not the current one "within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator". It's the difference I mentioned in my post below, and where the whole issue comes from.
And a lot of our messages will be the same, as they are standardized. Unless you type from memory, but that can lead to mistakes.
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But the senior mod and his handling wasn't the problem.
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It was. The first proof of contact with the winner that we can rely on, when we don't know when the key was sent to the winner, is a message sent to old GA. And then they were told to wait 7 days, but the other mod approved it only after 2 days.
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As a new user here, I don't know if I'm in a position to give too much of an opinion, but it seems to me that a week is enough time. That is, if you enter a giveaway I assume that you visit the site regularly.
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That, actually is a sound reasoning. Further, if you entered a GA, you probably knew when it's gonna end.
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The 7 days waiting period is absurd and only helps members who are to lazy to check their autojoiners on a daily basis. If you are in a situation where you can't check your SG account once per day don't enter giveaways simple as that.
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Usually, I would agree. But if the winner has not visited SG since they won, I usually don't mind waiting up to 7 days.
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Somehow SG rules seem to assume most members are kind of Indiana Jones roaming the remote corners of Earth where there's spotty or no internet connection.
In truth most of us are city dwellers with rather reliable connections. If a winner chooses to follow a path of introspection deliberately becoming incommunicado it shouldn't be a bother for the rest of us.
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Well, life happens. I try my best to check SG a few times everyday, but there have been unforeseen times that make it difficult. And usually such times are never the happy kind.
Regardless, that I mean is that 7 days is not that long for me personally, and if the rule ask to wait for 7 days, I am ok with it. But the shenanigans discussed above is not acceptable. And also the 7 days wait should apply only if the winner has not been online on SG since the GA ended. What I do mind, and almost despise is, when winners visit SG, yet don't bother checking their wins and providing feedback.
Edit: If they rule were 3 days or so, I would be ok with it too, it's not like I am saying 7 is ideal. But yes, 7 is the most that I think one should get, unless the gifter decides to wait longer.
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They actually only have 1 minute. If they don't comply, a sniper takes them out
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It looks that this is kinda a grey area and depends purely on a mod which handles this specific case and how closely they are following a prompter.
A few personal insights. Lets start with the Guidelines (which should be the official rules, right?), as far as I can see, there is only one line related to this topic “When a giveaway has ended, the gift is required to be sent to the winner within one week.” Everything is clear here and I completely agree, however, the guidelines do not mention anything about a situation, if a winner does not redeem his/her win.
The second document describing this situation is FAQ. So, within the FAQ section we have this paragraph: “If you contacted the winner of your giveaway on email and Steam over one week ago and they have not yet responded or redeemed any keys or gifts you attempted to send, please contact support to request a new winner. When creating a ticket, we ask you to include data that suggests you made an adequate attempt to contact the winner, such as screenshots of emails, friend requests, or gifts pending on Steam. If the request is approved, a new winner will be generated by the site.”
A few questions have risen here:
- Is Frequently Asked Questions are considered as the official rules?
- The word mentioned here is “IF”, which is a condition. It is not written as a forced rule ("must", "have", "need", "required", "necessary" and so on). Only at a second sentence, there is a mention that an adequate attempt should be made. But again, is it a rule or just a suggestion? Also, what is considered as an adequate attempt? Is key delivery via a built-in SG key delivery system already considered an adequate attempt?
- Support ticket is clearly named as “Unable to contact through Steam or E-mail”.
I suspect that all of this was written in the early days, when SG did not offer a built-in key delivery system and the only way to deliver a win was either via Steam (as a gift) or deliver a key via email. But the times have changed and quite a lot.
Of course this will not happen, but maybe time for a change and a quick update? :)
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Being as transparent as possible and offering as much clarity as possible with site rules so there are no grey areas, while also having consistency in how the site interprets those rules is always ideal IMO. So...hopefully. :)
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I was reading this part of the FAQ and coming here to comment more or less the same way you did.
Clearly that part is really messed up, messes up with us users and with mods.
The only hole I see in the "one week since giveaway ends, period" argument is that it should be "one week since key/gift is sent". For keys, the system should be able to tell mods when they were sent (which right now is clearly not that way); for gifts through Steam or email, a simple screenshot (with the clock expanded or similar) should be enough.
Thus, and IMHO, two things need to be changed:
- That FAQ question needs to be updated to how the system works today; and
- The system should store when the giveaway creator sent the key.
Thinking in how this gives both mods and users headaches, delays and unneeded tickets, I'd prioritize the matter, if anyone here can point it to cg (which would be a miracle).
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Is Frequently Asked Questions are considered as the official rules?
FAQ expands on the guideline, explaining how to behave in most often encountered scenarios
The word mentioned here is “IF”, which is a condition.
Yes. IF you contacted winner and 7 days passed - you can make ticket asking support for re-roll. IF you did not contact winner - you can't make the ticket, as you can't prove you sent the key on time.
Like it was mentioned few times, there is no time stamp when key was sent to winner. So we require a message that tells the winner that the key is available. People keep writing, "but they get email from SG!". Email from SG does not mean you have key available. You can be active each day, waiting for the key to be made available, and then have it sent 6 days after GA ended. Winners are not the only one who can be slow, creators can also be slow with sending keys.
Support ticket is clearly named as “Unable to contact through Steam or E-mail”.
Like you pointed out FAQ is mostly worded like it was 10 years ago. While guideline was changed basically ground up. It doesn't mean FAQ is wrong, only that it sometimes focus too much on situations that are not that common anymore - using email to send game via Steam, or sending key via email. Both have clear time stamps visible on screenshots, so there was no issue before with proving key was sent within reasonable time frame to the winner.
Also guideline covers it from both winner and creator perspective:
When a giveaway has ended, the gift is required to be sent to the winner within one week.
.
Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator. It is also necessary to keep this feedback up-to-date if the status of the gift changes.
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Junior mod is wrong.
It is seven days without any extended waiting period. Has been like this for ten years.
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I decided to stop momentarily to make GAs because I go from disappointment to disappointment.
The rules leave too much room for various shenanigans from winners when GA creators must suffer the consequences of dealing with bot users.
When a user win a key was already redeemed, I generally believe them and find a solution. But when you make a GA, you have to show you chase your ghost winner who is easily checkable connected on SG or Steam. However, I understand this rule for my first experience on SG for dealing with a fake gifts creator who has been permaban for this reason.
For my 10 last keys bought, I activated 5 keys succesfully and for the games I chose to give, 1 GA was deleted for the already redeemed reason, 1 GA was rebought for the already redeemed reason, 1 GA is still awaiting feedback after 3 weeks because the winner give no feedback at all and does not respond to messages from members or mods. But he saw the key few hours after have won it. Impossible to know if it's again another already redeemed key or something. I guess there is a rule that says that a winner has the eternity to send a feedback. So finally, I lost few keys on last salvo and I conclude I would better have hold them for myself. It cooled me down from all the pleasure of offering public GAs. I probably have already spent too much time wondering how to avoid bots, autojoins, leechers, there is no other conclusion than to limit the access
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I probably have already spent too much time wondering how to avoid bots, autojoins, leechers, there is no other conclusion than to limit the access
I went into a frenzy working on methods and tools for about one month, coordinating with Masafor in some capacity, only to realize how useless it is due to how limited SG is in various ways, how small the BL limit is, and how difficult it is to get such accounts banned.
I did manage to get a few accounts banned by providing several proofs, but the main breaking point was seeing 3 of my GAs sitting marked as unreceived because the tickets have not been resolved even today, after about 1.5 years.
Now, I have stopped caring. Limiting access (level, groups, sgtools, etc) seems like the only viable option, sadly.
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I did manage to get a few accounts banned by providing several proofs, but the main breaking point was seeing 3 of my GAs sitting marked as unreceived because the tickets have not been resolved even today, after about 1.5 years.
Got it as you said. Marked unreceived despite all my good faith. So I have no proof that it has not being stolen , reselled or anything but got finally a red mark. I don't know if this statment come from support or mute winner. To be honest I don't care anymore and understand more and more Masafor interventions and can understand any user who does only restricted acces gifts
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Yeah, you need to experience it to really understand why people don't like doing public GAs.
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3 of my GAs sitting marked as unreceived because the tickets have not been resolved even today, after about 1.5 years.
Is the ticket in "Require response" status? If yes then it will never be solved, as this status means we wait for creator message and don't go back to it. Unless creator provides information we asked for.
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There are two tickets for this issue. Earlier I simply requested a reroll, but I got a reply from a mod to also raise a new ticket to report the user, after more than 5 months.
I did that, created a new ticket. Replied on the existing one as well. Multiple times even. However, both tickets are still sitting there.
The original one is under "Require Response" despite me responding more than 11 months ago (within a few hours of hearing from a mod).
The new tickets was created the same day, more than 11 months ago, and still has not received any response any more.
It's been so long that probably even the keys have expired by now, as per the store. And I have kinda stopped caring. I avoid making GAs now, because it just seems so much work and hassle. I do it only when I really want to create one, like I did this month.
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Just a summary after I looked it up. You made a couple of GAs and thought 3 winners look suspicious. You did not send them wins, and filed re-roll request for one disputed GA. Winners marked GA as Not Received 7 days after GA ended, following the rules.
It would be a risky approach to take with "easy to handle" Inactivated Wins reason back then, as the ticket was created when we were short on staff, and it was regularly taking 4- 6 days to process re-rolls and deletions. Each disputed giveaway should have its own ticket created. Not have all information on potential rule-breakers from a few GAs bundled in one ticket.
Suspension must be active when the ticket is reviewed. If you'd file re-roll after the user is suspended - suspension may run its course before the ticket is seen by someone from staff, and re-roll denied. Unless the inactivated win ended within 30 days ago, then GA can still be re-rolled. It did happen to me when I was a fresh user, and I learned my lesson to always give all information that apply to a specific giveaway in the dedicated ticket, and ask for re-roll together with user to be checked. Not see if I can firstly catch users via User Report, and then file for re-roll.
Your reason for re-roll was Multiple Users. And unless evidence is clear-cut (which was not in this case) it will pretty much always run past the required 7 days to send the win. It can take us a few weeks to gather enough evidence to suspend someone for multiple accounts. So with suspected multi-accounts (unless evidence is clear-cut) users should send the game and file User Report instead. If they are right, users will be permanently suspended, just with some delay. If they are wrong, then the winner will get their win on time.
We could not act in case of 2 giveaways, as you did not make tickets about them. In case of the 3rd ticket, I do not know why no one replied to it for 6 months (it was only when juniors joined and started to mow through old tickets that it was replied to), because I do remember we were slow, but kept re-roll and delete queue generally under 7 days with first reply. Not few weeks.
Also, users are generally not banned, but suspended. Either temporarily or permanently. In both scenario user can still file tickets, e.g. to be unsuspended, or ask us for winners of ended GA, if they want to send game directly during suspension. When a user is banned, they can't access the Support section at all. It can be done only by cg, and reserved for people who endlessly spam support with off-topic or harassment. Not many people here are banned.
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I think I have replied to most of it in the support ticket.
We could not act in case of 2 giveaways, as you did not make tickets about them. In case of the 3rd ticket, I do not know why no one replied to it for 6 months (it was only when juniors joined and started to mow through old tickets that it was replied to), because I do remember we were slow, but kept re-roll and delete queue generally under 7 days with first reply. Not few weeks.
Yes, I am now aware of it. And hence I never held it against the mods, but nonetheless it was frustrating to wait for 6 months for the 1st response. However, when I got no response even after after I responded to the the 1st response, for what is now 11 months, I completely gave up. Also, I feel like there's need for more mods, and some more measures on the site to prevent bots, spammers, resellers, multi-account-ers, etc. And having mods verify everything manually is not the most optimal thing imo.
Anyway, this thread highlights a very different problem, which I believe, is true. And what I said earlier in is true, I have stopped caring now. I don't really think I'll check the winners, if and when I make GAs, which doesn't seem to be often, so guess it doesn't really matter.
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I refuse to do public giveaways any more. I did not lose any keys but it did take a full week for some of the bots to claim.
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A lot of people around here including mods seem rather supportive of botting and(I apologize for any offence) rather anti-social which is quite odd considering this is a social site? Why it is considered rude to contact people a day or two after they win something to remind them? Why would you possibly need a week to claim a win? If you are out of town away from your gaming pc why are you participating to being with? Do real life matters pop up? Yes but I have honestly not encountered this, only people using bots and checking for a win 4-7 days at a time. The people behind the scenes don't want to lose traffic, I understand that but punishing the real people doesn't make sense. And wigging out about receiving an email or comment on your profile doesn't make sense either. Just my thoughts. I know 12 people blacklisted me before about this I'm sure a few more will now. Oh well.
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Doubt blacklisting was for emailing, but for a shitty attitude.
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For stating my opinion? Right. Sorry I don't grovel on my hands and knees for anyone especially not random people on the internet that have been lurking around a particular website longer than I have. I've been using the internet longer than most the people around here have been alive, I certainly don't expect people to give me special treatment for it. I don't have an attitude or go after people but whatever.
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If you are out of town away from your gaming pc why are you participating to being with?
Giveaways can run for up to 30 days, so much things can happen in that time...
If for any reason I would be too busy/occupied to check the site, it would be the least of my worries to remove my entries. because it would need to be of emergency, or some super important thing.
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People love to pull what if scenarios out of the air, since you didn't fully read or comprehend the entirety of the post let me try to clear one thing up for you. The odds of you winning a giveaway that lasts 30 days is going to be 1/3000 at best unless it's some super restricted giveaway. Even a 1 week giveaway it will be 1/1000 at best. Your what if scenario is so infinitesimally small as to be humorous. Bots using said excuses or no excuse at all however is much higher. As I said I personally never had some emergency situation pop up but I did have 5/50 giveaways won by bots who took their time to check their wins. Well one never did but got suspended so I got a reroll on that. I guess I should be happy it was only 10% and all of them got resolved.
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People love to pull what if scenarios out of the air, since you didn't fully read or comprehend the entirety of the post let me try to clear one thing up for you. The odds of you winning a giveaway that lasts 30 days is going to be 1/3000 at best unless it's some super restricted giveaway. [...] Your what if scenario is so infinitesimally small as to be humorous.
Get off the high horse lol
Then when you're on the ground, you will see group and whitelist giveaways that rarely get 3000 entries. And they are relatively widespread, but it doesn't make much difference if it's 10 or 30 days.
At the end of the day, this is not a fight to be won or an argument about chances. It's a fact that the chance exists. As do the site rules about the 7 days to claim a game, regardless of the reason.
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There you go again selectively reading and replying. What's the point? I mean I could just type something nonsensical. Hey let's have a debate about god while we are at it. My god is better than your god, prove me wrong. Go!
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You Fallout boys should have same God. Why so agressive to each other.
Meeting 50 bots in first week are weak numbers, which you will find out sooner or later. Multiusers are even worse.
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And there you go again attacking me and saying I'm aggressive because I have a differing opinion than someone else. Where am I aggressive? Where have I personally attacked anyone or even said they are wrong? Everyone has opinions and everyone is entitled to them. I did find the fact that you reached so far as to include my avatar mildly amusing. Have a wonderful day.
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Where have I personally attacked anyone or even said they are wrong?
Idk, you should be able see number of your comments on your profile?
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Have fun with whatever crusade you are on kid. I am moving on, I refuse to participate in things of this nature. You want to think I am some nefarious evildoer well good for you.
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I am not sure if you really don't see you are attacking everyone replying to you or you overtrolled our trolls.
But we are probably all just bots to you. 01110000010110
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It's my opinion that the grievances the three of you have amongst yourselves isn't particularly relevant to the discussion. The Fallout boys comment was funny though.
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Believe me I have no grievance. If you look you will see this person follows me to every comment I make and does this. I'm sorry this happened in your discussion. Like I said I'm done replying to them. As far as my replies to Adam, what I was saying is he ignored half of what I said. I mean it's not really important and not even relevant but I have a habit of pointing things out. It wasn't meant as an attack or anything.
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This is starting to turn into a "why we have 7 days and no less" post which won't help.. Why don't make a seperate post about this? I would prefer 1-3 days as well but it's a 100% irrelevant convo for the claim rule. 2 different issues but even if they changed to 1-3 days the topic of this one is still relevant (how to proceed, how time gets counted)
I hope I'm making sense xD It's hard for me to not respond to this and just comment what I did xD
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You're proposing that there can be a separate conversation about reducing (or not) the amount of time someone has to claim their win since it isn't really relevant to the discussion of the seven days winners currently have being reset when a gifter contacts the winner. Makes sense to me.
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No no it makes perfect sense but as you can see it will just degenerate into people attacking me because??? I have an opinion? The time allotted is not really the issue per say but people abusing the allotted time by using bots. That's really what I am saying. I'm not really sure what the best fix for it is. I just use whitelist for now. It sucks losing every giveaway to bot users but eh I still win some.
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I don't think we need mods for this at all. If it has been 7 days since the key was sent, auto reroll option.
One member has not activated a key in over a year, is almost always online, has multiple messages on their Steam profile, and previous GAs, asking them to activate their keys, and a mod still asked me to try to contact them before rerolling.
This is a waste of everyone's time.
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Agreed.
I think it might be wise to remove the user's name from your post though. So as to not receive a time out for calling out a user, despite the call out being justified based on the described scenario.
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That's a thing? I could understand personal attacks, but everything I said was factual and I only mentioned their username so people could see I was not making it up. Very well, username removed.
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Yes, you can't name someone in a negative way.
They don't want witch hunts which is understandable in some cases.
But when someone cheat with 3 - 50 accounts, resell games that he got for free from devs to promote their game or stuff like this, i don't see why such people need to be protected.
I am in general known for not going the soft route with cheaters....
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You can't even post screenshots or say which user you have on your ignore list, because support also interprets that as calling out xD
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I wonder if posting this screenshot, but in state before users deleted their responses would also be a case of calling out?
Technically it was them who called out themselves, but then they deleted their messages so it would be me?
IDK sometimes I feel like I was talking with myself.
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Yes, such ones should be perma suspended without long questions.
But the (un)funny thing is that a perma suspension means that the account can come back after 1 year.
Sadly no joke, autojoiners, multiaccounters, all can come back.
That was the last nail in the coffin and why i stopped to hunt all the black sheeps around 1 year ago. Because to hunt them down till they get a perma suspension needs partly more as 1 year (not to speak from all the invested, not endless available, lifetime).
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If you think about it SG is a Voodoo cult at it's core with dead permanently suspended coming back and all :)
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But the (un)funny thing is that a perma suspension means that the account can come back after 1 year.
That's false, if you try to delete a permanently suspended account you will never be able to re-register
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/4wcBgOg
Another issue is someone being permanently suspended, and then making account with another Steam details. But if we find it, people are suspended for ban evasion.
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That's false, if you try to delete a permanently suspended account you will never be able to re-register
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/4wcBgOgAnother issue is someone being permanently suspended, and then making account with another Steam details. But if we find it, people are suspended for ban evasion.
Sorry to say it so direct but my info is correct, and of course i can back it up with evidences as always, and yours is wrong (i don't assume a bad intention from you, so i hope you don't feel attacked from my words).
Don't get me wrong, maybe your info, from cg should be correct, maybe it give some loopholes in the programming that no staff member can influence or know of but it is a EXTREME CLEAR FACT that multiple perma suspended accounts came back to sg.
I would say my group seen, round about, 20 multiaccounter, autojoiners etc. that came back after, always, short above 1 year.
And let's say to see this was EXTREMELY demotivating for each black sheep hunter in my group.
I can't post you accounts, because of the calling out rule, but i am sure i have a bunch of the user accounts still stored because i know a few of them since years, from different places, and count them to my "special friends" (in a negative way).
So i had for very long times one or two eyes on what they done.
Oh and the ones that came back, as example a multiaccounter, came back with the ORIGINAL sg AND steam account (the main sg one), the smaller sg account got deleted (and the first thing that he did was starting to enter GAs with the help of a autojoner -i assume he still use the autojoiner-).
I STRONGLY assume, that this deletion, kill the entry in the sg logs to this account. That it looks after this clean for the system.
Or the perma suspension logs get automaticly deleted after 1 year.
I can only assume one of this two options but i don't see a other logical possibility of how people can come back with the original (old) accounts without getting detected.
A autojoiner user, that got 4 or 5 times suspended for not activating his wins, came back after 1 year, with activated wins (he bought or traded the games to activate them). It gave a staff voting for it and he were allowed to enter sg again.
But none of the staff took a look into the tickets where the autojoiner reports were.
With screenshots about him writing to a group owner that he used different autojoiners in the past but not do it anymore (it was before the 2nd suspension). The group owner believed his "i will not do it in the future" and i informed him each time when the user were again suspended (i assumed for autojoining but he were """only""" suspended for not activating his wins [because of the autojoing....]). After over 1 year he got the perma suspension and 1 year later he were back in action (and is since then very vocal in the discussions and always is against autojoiners [it's like a very bad joke that someone act this way and that i can't say something in such a "fake white knight" case because of the calling out rule]).
I know both cases very detailed because i reported both users (and informed the group owner about the autojoiner).
If you are interested on a few account names, by far not all 20 because i can remember now after ~1 year only on a handful and i am not willing to spend many or hundreds of hours to go throught a lot of infos to find this few ones, then contact me on discord and i can link and share their the accounts -which i can't here because of the calling out rule (that protects in many cases the wrong ones...)-
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Sorry to say it so direct but my info is correct, and of course i can back it up with evidences as always, and yours is wrong (i don't assume a bad intention from you, so i hope you don't feel attacked from my words).
MSKOTOR is not wrong. If a user deletes their permanently suspended account, the site will not allow them to re-register in the future. The only way for that to happen would be if I manually removed the block from the database. I can't recall that ever being done.
Non-deleted users with permanent suspensions can have those suspensions removed, similar to any other suspension. For example, this can happen if they resolve the issue (e.g. activate their wins). In other cases, we may review a permanent suspension after significant time has passed, read the user's case for unsuspension, review what happened leading up to the suspension, and use our best judgment to determine whether or not the user can be integrated back into the community. So yes, a permanently suspended user can technically return to the site. However, it requires action and approval from a moderator.
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after significant time has passed
please do it, cg
would be nice, cg... please
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a permanently suspended user can technically return to the site
A permanent suspension isn't very permanent, then.
I advise you to change this.
It is either a permanent suspension - meaning it will never be changed as long as SG exists - or a one year suspension with the possibility to appeal the suspension after this said year.
It can't be both.
Please alter the wording accordingly, it will stop debates and confusion.
Me personally, I would like to see a permanent suspension being permanent and a new suspension added that lasts one year.
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I might add getting a "permanent" suspension isn't easy. You must violate SG rules multiple times and get caught with enough proof to satisfy moderation.
It's save to say those individuals are the worst black sheep SG has to offer. While I am a strong proponent for re-integration this will be a lost cause with those ex-members.
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Hey Mr.cg,
can you please easily solve the initial problem here by adding this tiny little thing to your website:
A timer showing how long a key has been set to 'sent', and make mods be able to see that for reroll requests.
Boom, solved, thanks.
Oh and also re-hide previously unrevealed keys that were edited, so winners will notice that.
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Thanks for the answer.
So it would mean you are sure the users that came back after a perma suspension weren't able to do this by a programming error and instead say that they got all "invited/approved/allowed" from a mod or a mod counsil that voted about a/the case(s).
To be honest, i don't expected this.
I don't wanted to believe it in the past and i still don't want to believe it now.
hbarkas below write it very good.
Why get a multiaccounter AGAIN a chance to join the site ?
Which positive result will be expected ?
Why such a user isn't observed then ? And why he not get directly, again, a perma suspension when he start from the first moment of his, new, try, to enter GAs with a autojoiner (i can give you the name of the user i talk about... but obviously, sadly, not here [because this guy need to be protected after all the good things he done to the site -sorry i can bear it only with sarcasm in such cases-]).
A other guy got 4 or 5 times suspended for unactivated wins (the autojoiner tickets got never solved/not lead to a autojoiner suspension/note).
Why such a ex user will be accepted back into the site when he activate his wins after 1 year ?
[ In the very best case he sold/traded the wins and 1 year later bought/traded them again to activate them. He made more money/better trade deals with newer games and got them cheaper 1 year later. So still a win for him ]
Why did such one need a 5th or 6th chance?
Which positive result will be expected from such a user ?
In the end are such cases like spitting in everyones face that hunt such black sheeps and help the mods, and from my point of view the site.
Everyone that spend his lifetime get his invested lifetime devaluaded with/from such actions.
And i, personal, seen it as very disrepecting me and my lifetime on top. All this together were for me the main reason why i stopped to hunt the black sheeps and thought myself "let them handle their shit alone and they can be happy that i don't cheat as, round about, 50% of the active members on this site [yes, it is so extreme here with the cheaters]".
From the black sheep hunters that i know, a lot of them are in my group, 85% stopped the hunting when i stopped, or short after. So around 1 year ago.
I, strongly, assume the difference is visible today -for neutral/not so aware users too-.
I am willing to give you account links, names, cases of the perma suspended accounts that came back.
I offer to invest, 1x, my lifetime to make this datas/infos available for you and/or the staff (as example MSKOTOR, Gaffi, Eefrit... -pick what you see as fitting, prefered a discord account because it would do things much easier for me-). The involved account can block/unfriend me afterwards, i don't need the contact after it.
But i will not have much time before new year and expect that i will need to search for a big part of the infos very much (so 20h+ in the end), so it can first happen in january (no chance before -except the infos about the 2 cases that i named above-).
And why autojoiner users need 3 chances to stop their behavior ?
None that i know see this as the right step against the swarm of autojoiners that infested this site.
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I don't understand why the moderators are so opposed to rerolls, especially when the key hasn't been opened.
I don't understand why we have to message them at all, especially regarding keys. If the recipient hasn't opened the key, it should automatically reroll after 7 days from when the key was sent. In the case where the key has been opened but no feedback is given, it should be marked as received automatically after 1 or 2 day and idk receive a ban if it doesn't appear in their game list after a while. If the recipient forgets to give feedback, they should be responsible for contacting the moderators and explaining themselves within a week or so.
With gifts through steam, it's different, you could contact them to make the process faster, the exchange can't be automated like with keys. But even with gifts, they could even add you, why are they waiting for the giver to facilitate the whole exchange. It's so annoying when you have to message them through multiple channels and you see them online everywhere, but they're too lazy to add you back or write a response in time. But with gifts you don't have the uncertainty of invalid keys.
Seven days is a reasonable timeframe for recipients to show respect to both the givers and the site. I agree three weeks is a waste of everyone's time, especially for the mods, lot of this can be straightforward and automated.
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I agree three weeks is a waste of everyone's time, especially for the mods, lot of this can be straightforward and automated.
The more time you spend on this website, the more you'll realize how backwards many of the systems are here :D
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Maybe it's because the admins are too busy or lazy to modify the site design to be fairer, especially that SG.com was created with some ancient software.
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I know the moderator in question didn't realize I hosted well over a thousand giveaways on my previous account before shutting it down two years ago.
And how is it a relevant point, except for trying to prove your opinion is "better" than the rule explanation from support, because you were around here for so long, and made so many giveaways?
S/He asserts that "Every other mod will tell you the same since the rules are very clear on that.", and maybe that is currently true, but in reality, it's the very first time I've had a moderator interpret the rules that way.in seven years between my old shut down account and new active account.
.
but I also know that it's not a universal rules interpretation amongst moderators based on my previous "please reroll or mark as received" moderation requests
3.5 years ago we updated our Guidelines. It went from
Winners should correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the giveaway closing. This feedback should be kept up-to-date if the status of the gift changes.
to
Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator. It is also necessary to keep this feedback up-to-date if the status of the gift changes.
So while previously it could be interpreted that the winner must mark as Received within 7 days (even when creator did not send the key at all, which was happening), now it's clear we (as support) need a clear proof that creator sent win to the winner, and when it happened. We had situations where the game was sent at day 6, winner did not activate it immediately, and creator was asking for re-roll as 7 days passed.
You are talking about rules how they were written 3 years ago, not now. There was discrepancy in how some tickets were handled, as the rule was not that clear. That's why it was re-phrased, so it is in line of our standard procedure. Old habits die hard, so I'm sure a couple tickets were handled differently after guideline update by mistake. But it should not be happening.
Another thing that happen is that we now have new moderators, so work is spread between more people. Giving them more time to think on the ticket. Before they joined, it was literally a handful of mods doing all the work. And I was catching myself making mistakes, as "I wanted to process those 30 region-change tickets, and I missed that one ticket was actually about region locked win". Plus routines that you get into (like the one with region-change) that can make you think creator wrote something different from what there really is. That's why often (in all life really) it's important to have the second pair of eyes checking on you. It is not something we had in support for a long time. Usually if we approve ticket wrongly (re-roll of region restricted GA, deletion without winner permission etc.) creator is happy and will not complain publicly, which also means that stories that support "now changed approach, they did differently in one other ticket" can prevail for so long
I know it may look harsh, but like always - because of a couple bad actors, rest must sometimes go through more than necessary. We would not need to ask for proof when key was actually sent if creator would not try to deny sending the game "because they won too much" "because they look Russian" "because they have too many games on Steam".
In general, gifting should look like:
- giveaway ends and site picks winner
- creator sends game to the winner within 7 days of GA closing (people have lives, so delay can be expected)
- winner activates game within 7 days of it being available to them (again, people have lives, it works both ways)
Because of it, we need to know when the key was sent to the winner. It used to be that we don't have delivery system on SG, so keys were usually sent via email - which has time stamp. And while using SG delivery system is convenient, it does not show when key was sent. That's why we require proof that has a time stamp - best one is simply commenting in winner old GA. Second is writing on Steam profile. Both work as direct message to winner, just like email used to be.
I am not saying that this system is perfect, as with a time stamp when the key was made available to the winner on the giveaway page, timings could be shortened. But that's beyond support power to change, as it requires site code change.
EDIT: As Masafor pointed out, Steam has automatic filters that scan profile comments, to try and prevent users being scammed. Writing "you won! Please go [here] to claim your win!" do look like a scam attempt when it's processed by dumb automatic tools. So if someone try to reach out winner on Steam - do it in neutral way like "Space cat came to you, can you please accept?". Do not link to SG itself.
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"Because of it, we need to know when the key was sent to the winner. It used to be that we don't have delivery system on SG, so keys were usually sent via email - which has time stamp. And while using SG delivery system is convenient, it does not show when key was sent. That's why we require proof that has a time stamp - best one is simply commenting in winner old GA. Second is writing on Steam profile. Both work as direct message to winner, just like email used to be."
Even if a moderator couldn't see how many days it's been since a key was sent and required a screenshot with a timestamp, which in and of itself is fine, it doesn't explain or excuse resetting the seven days the winner has to redeem the game. Which IS the core issue being discussed.
*In thinking about this further, I realize why you reset the counter, but that exposes a flaw in the system. The system itself recognizes when a key is sent (using the gift option is a separate issue) and knows enough to send an email to the winner, but somehow doesn't store this info in a way that is accessible to anyone (except the winner). I doubt significant changes to the coding would be necessary to timestamp the sending of the email to the winner and vault it for mods and the gifter to access. Alternatively, a change could literally be as simple as adding the timestamp next to "sent", or emailing the gifter as well, or what have you. cg was just active recently in response to the HAMAS threads. I don't see any reasons why he couldn't add a simple tweak that would have a significant positive impact on the user and moderator experience. We're not really talking about a full site overhaul here.
Also, the seven day quote in my OP was directly from the link the moderator provided. Take a look if you like.
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/guidelines
"Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator."
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That doesn't apply to keys. You can see when the key was sent. That only applies to a gifter choosing the gift option for a g/a. And the site sends the winner a notification as well.
You click on the radio button, it gets green, the winner will see the giveaway trophy blinking, that's we all know. Where do you see the time when they key was sent?
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I know that you know that you can see how many days it's been since you sent the key and can actually see the key as well should you be so inclined, and so too can a moderator if they choose to look. 'nuff said...
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Where do you see the time when they key was sent? Because I do not see it anywhere, maybe I'm just looking at the wrong place. It's just a sent button for me, no date shown even if I hover over it.
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Actually, you're correct about that and I apologize for my previous response. I guess I'd been looking at how many days since the g/a ended, and since I always send them within a couple hours of a g/a ending, I always know how long it's been. It's not really relevant to the main issue of resetting the winner's seven days to redeem, but nonetheless, a mistake is a mistake.
It is weird that SG doesn't have a counter that mods can reference though. Especially since the system emails the gifter when a g/a ends and emails the winner that they've won. But ultimately a secondary point for my OP, although an important topic as far as cleaning up the process.
*I amended the comment you were initially referencing, btw.
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Alternatively, a change could literally be as simple as adding the timestamp next to "sent", or emailing the gifter as well, or what have you.
And I agree. But without having a time stamp when the key was sent to the winner, we must have another way to guarantee creator didn't just wait 7 days, clicked "sent", made a screenshot and then asked for re-roll of a winner they don't like for whatever reason. Only way for us to know that key was in fact sent is see creator message in winner GA, sent email or message on the Steam profile. They provide time stamp that show winner was given enough time to activate win.
It is not "resetting" the timer, it's simply giving the winner the same amount of time that creator had to end the gifting process. Both parties have 1 week. Life happens, even when some people say THEY check SG a couple times each day, so everyone should do the same.
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I think the simplest, possibly stop gap method of obtaining proof is to have the system send an email to both the creator and the winner when the key is sent. Then a reroll request with a screenshot of that specific email is unimpeachable proof of when the key was sent.
At some point though, what should probably happen is, when the email is sent to the winner, a timestamp is left on the giveaway next to, say, the send key or revea/viewl key prompt.
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I don't know what impact it would have on SG as a whole (see how cg adjusts now comments, so site does not take ages to load pages...). But the time stamp connected to GA when the game was sent would be enough, especially that it would not require creator to submit anything. It feels like (but I may be wrong) that sending 2 emails each time creator click "Sent" would generate more load to servers.
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I want to make this point separate to my other response. If you read through the comments, you're getting a good idea of what the user base thinks about these policies. It's worth taking the overall message of people's concerns to heart and contemplating how to improve based on the user feedback.
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I know it may look harsh, but like always - because of a couple bad actors, rest must sometimes go through more than necessary. We would not need to ask for proof when key was actually sent if creator would not try to deny sending the game "because they won too much" "because they look Russian" "because they have too many games on Steam".
I'm a little shocked that there are gifters who behave this badly. Still, why not start handing out suspensions for people who indulge in these shenanigans, instead of placing the burden on the majority of gifters who send their keys in a timely fashion?
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Usually people who ask for re-rolls "because they won too much" are newer people, who would want to gift to those less fortunate than them. When you see you have 100 games on Steam, and your winner has 5k, 800 won, and you know most of them are unplayed - it can be disheartening.
Still, it's not a reason to re-roll. We do explain this. And I personally say they can try to make some puzzle or SGtools GA. But I also know that if we'd allow to re-roll just because creator would not send game "because of badly looking profile", and we would just look on date when GA ended - some would exploit it. And it's hard to prove they actually acted in a bad faith (instead of being newer), if they would just "skip" being honest in a ticket that re-roll is for example due to number of wins.
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Wait, the system doesn't show when a key was sent? This is news to me, I always assumed such info was available to you guys so you could corroborate the gifter's version of events. It sounds like a major flaw... although I imagine the load to the server would accumulate over time and not including such feature could save up quite a bit of resources in a system that is often stressed, specially considering that re-rolls are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the bulk of giveaways created.
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Wait, the system doesn't show when a key was sent?
We don't ask for this info just to annoy creators and make their life miserable. It also takes our time to ask for it. I did write in other posts here that it would be good to have a time stamp. But as long as we don't have it - we need to use this "workaround" of asking for a proof that creator made key available before they asked for re-roll. Not that they "sent" just for purpose of screenshot
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I wasn't implying that you did it for fun or anything, it was that I honestly assumed that the system kept track of such things in order to simplify your work and that the screenshots were mostly to prove that we at least tried to contact the winner instead of exclusively relying on the system itself. I haven't had to ask for a re-roll in so long that I wasn't up to date with current procedures, last time I needed one was six years ago.
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I guess a way to prevent the accumulation would be to make that info temporary for 2-3 weeks.
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That sound like a good idea. But who knows how the back-end is actually structured, maybe it's more trouble that it's worth it, or CG has considered it and then discarded the idea for whatever reason.
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Hey, thanks for your long answer. But I interpreted OPs posting in a different way and I think OP and you are talking about two different things.
I understood OP like this:
- Gifter sends key/gift to winner
- Winner doesn't activate win for seven days
- Gifter contacts support and asks for a reroll
- Support tells gifter to get winners approval for a reroll
- Gifter contacts winner and asks for approval for a reroll
- Because gifter contacted winner for a reroll, winner again has seven days to activate the win
- If winner does not activate the win within the second 7-days-window, only then will support grant a reroll
This is how I read OPs words/OPs experience with a junior mod.
And I am certain that this is wrong.
In my experience, Winner has seven days to activate the win. Gifter then asks for a reroll with evidence that the win was made available to the winner at least seven days ago (or more). If at least seven days have passed, the reroll will be handled. There will be no second 7-days-grace-period granted to the winner to activate the win.
Could you please read OPs posting again and react to this?
Thank you.
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You don't ask for winner permission to re-roll. You tell winner that key is available, and GA will be re-rolled if they do not take action. The situation is the same as I described. Creator can't prove that they really sent win to the winner by just linking to the GA page with "sent" visible, or saying they did.
Re-rolls are automatically granted in few cases:
- winner is suspended after they won (usually because creator saw inactivated win on their account)
- winner was not active after GA ended, and it is already 7 days after GA end (this is for situations where winner entered GAs, and then stopped to use the site)
- winner already owns game, or the majority of a bundle (it is creator decision "what is too much")
- winner won group-only giveaway after they were kicked out from said group
- winner does not own base game (rarely happens to some DLC, that you can enter even when you don't own base game)
- winner asks for re-roll (usually in GA comments)
There is one situation when we don't do it automatically and ask for proof - when winner is active after GA ended and none of the above applies. It does happen that winner logs in, see they won something, key is sent, and they never claim it. But we need to make sure creator gave those 7 days to claim the game.
The majority of winners will claim game shortly. For the rest, it's enough to leave a message in their old GA (if any is public, otherwise Steam profile) to claim win. I would do this "reminder" 3 or 4 days of GA closing. That way there is a clear time stamp when the key was surely available to the winner, so we can act on it. And winner has way to respond to such comment, in case key was in fact not sent.
Commenting in old GA has also advantage that everything stays on SG - we currently have user on longer vacation because they failed to claim wins in reasonable time frame. They firstly get warning, and if nothing changes - suspension. There is even one user that was wasting creators time so many times, never claiming within 7 days (basically ghosting creators) they ended with permanent suspension.
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Hey MSKOTOR, again, thank you for your answer.
I strongly advise all users against commenting on Steam profiles and will do so in the future, because users already were punished by Valve for doing so. The word "Steamgift" alone seems to be on a kind of blacklist by Valve and as soon as you write the words "Steamgift" and "win" in a comment on another user's profille on Steam, you can be sure that Valve will pick it up and punish you.
I'm afraid that commenting in an old giveaway here at SG as timestamp that the win has been made available can easily be abused by gifters, at least in theory. They can comment that they sent the key but never send it. Or sent it so that you as Support can see that the key was sent and instantly unsend it again, which I guess you as Support can not see. Or delete it or replace it with a fake key.
You advise us to comment in an old giveaway of the winner that they should claim their win.
Question: What should we do with winners who have never done a single giveaway?
Commenting on their Steam profile is not an option (see above).
Last questions:
Is it also okay as a timestamp to comment in our own giveaway that the winner has won and the key/gift is now available, since the winner always has access to the giveaway?
Or is it important for you that the winner gets a notification in form of the small blinking envelope on the top of the page and because of that, we have to comment on one of his old giveaways?
If the notification is important, can we also comment on one of winners comments here in the forums as proof and as a timestamp?
(Addendum: If the winner doesn't react to a blinking winning notification on top of the page, she/he most certainly also will not react to a blinking message notification right next to it.)
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They can comment that they sent the key but never send it.
True, but then the winner will be prompted that "key is available" here, but key is not there. So they can go and reply to the comment with "oy mate, there is no key, you sure you sent it?". It will stay there forever, and creator can't tamper with it. No other method allows for it. Email, message on Steam, comment on profile. Easiest example would be creator sending email to winner "collect your win", winner replies "what win, I don't see anything", and creator sending just their initial message to us. We do rely on a goodwill of both creator and winner a lot. And not all people play nice.
What should we do with winners who have never done a single giveaway?
Right now as a second choice I would use the email (it was a main way to communicate with users at first on SG after all), as it doesn't require commenting on Steam profile. It is inferior to message on SG itself, but gives us way more information than just a screenshot of "Invite sent" Steam user profile page. Which is really weak as an evidence that contact attempt was "adequate". We did adjust our replies to reflect it.
When I think of a real life example, I imagine those no-moral debt collectors. That file electronic debt orders to courts, without checking if alleged debtor lives under address they have in their old files. The court sends one notice of hearing, then a second. At this point it's assumed debtor must know about the incoming court case, they don't show up to give evidence, and no-moral debt collector gets money from their bank account. I don't know if other countries work like this, but I heard of such cases in Poland. And "invite sent" evidence screenshot feels similar to me.
Is it also okay as a timestamp to comment in our own giveaway that the winner has won and the key/gift is now available, since the winner always has access to the giveaway?
No, winner will not get the notification if you comment yourself in GA, unless it's a reply to them. Hoping winner will see you contacting them somewhere on SG, when they are checking GA won symbol to see if the key is there, would not be adequate.
If the notification is important, can we also comment on one of winners comments here in the forums as proof and as a timestamp? / If the winner doesn't react to a blinking winning notification on top of the page, she/he most certainly also will not react to a blinking message notification right next to it.
That would lead to discussions being bumped again and again to the top, without having anything of essence added to them. No one would want that kind of necro.
And if someone ignores messages that are clearly there, it is "on them". They could also ignore sent email, and we accept it as proof of contact. The message in the old GA is to show when the key was made available, and to give ability to respond. It's different from seeing a bubble with "1" in it, and there is no key when you go there. Also, I don't think the difference between static and blinking bubble next to the won symbol is clearly explained somewhere. But I stopped entering GAs long ago, so could forget if there was discussion explaining it. I would not even think of it if you wouldn't point it out.
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Again, thank you for your answer :)
Also, I don't think the difference between static and blinking bubble next to the won symbol is clearly explained somewhere.
True, it's not explained anywhere.
I have no more questions to add.
To summarize all your answers in this thread, I would like to advise CG and you as support to act fast and
A) add a new rule to the guidelines or at least a new question to the FAQs about this situation that clearly points out that gifters have to message their winners in one of the winners old giveaways as a proof with timestamp that the win was indeed sent
or, if A) takes too long,
B) create a new thread with a precisely worded title that clearly points out that gifters have to message their winners in one of the winners old giveaways as a proof with timestamp that the win was indeed sent and make this thread sticky.
A) and/or B) will reduce questions about this as well as reduce uncertainty within the community. Thank you!
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I know the moderator in question didn't realize I hosted well over a thousand giveaways on my previous account before shutting it down two years ago.
And how is it a relevant point, except for trying to prove your opinion is "better" than the rule explanation from support, because you were around here for so long, and made so many giveaways?
I think you act to harsh with the OP and see a bad intention where none is.
He don't said that his opinion is superior/better as the one from the mod and it is a fact that a experienced gifter with over 1k of GAs know for sure how, normaly/usualy, reroll tickets gets handled and when something at the, new, handling is different.
That's all that he said and it is very relevant if a user have no experience with something, a bit or a lot. It's very unclear for me how you are able to see this different.
Because the different reroll ticket text and handling he were confused and questioned here.
3.5 years ago we updated our Guidelines. It went from
Winners should correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the giveaway closing. This feedback should be kept up-to-date if the status of the gift changes.
to
Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator. It is also necessary to keep this feedback up-to-date if the status of the gift changes.
If it give such a big change in the handling, then it should be pointed out what it mean for the future and in the ticket process.
I am a, VERY, active user and i don't seen a info about the different handling and none of the mods that handled my reroll tickets in this 3,5 years wrote something different or acted different as before.
So while previously it could be interpreted that the winner must mark as Received within 7 days (even when creator did not send the key at all, which was happening), now it's clear we (as support) need a clear proof that creator sent win to the winner, and when it happened. We had situations where the game was sent at day 6, winner did not activate it immediately, and creator was asking for re-roll as 7 days passed.
I know it may look harsh, but like always - because of a couple bad actors, rest must sometimes go through more than necessary. We would not need to ask for proof when key was actually sent if creator would not try to deny sending the game "because they won too much" "because they look Russian" "because they have too many games on Steam".
Ok, thats helpful because it explains for us users why something were done.
It wasn't visible for us before and i think i am not the only gifter that usually send the key a few minutes or max. 10h (if i am sleeping) after someone won a game (and i try to time my GA endings at times where i know i am awake and at hoome -if not something suprisingly happen-).
So yes, i assumed this is the usual handling for the majority of the gifters.
And if some black sheeps go a personal vendetta, they should be punished.
I don't like all my winners, special when i know they are autojoiners, multiaccounters or other ones that i can't put anymore on my BL because the 1k are full with only level 5 or higher users (the BL is too small with all the cheaters on sg!!! or the actions against the cheaters are much too less!!! [pick for yourself the point of view in this case]), but i still send them the win because i am FORCED (not because i want). And after sending such winners the win, i regret the GA and stop with public GAs for X months, till i make again a public GA (in 50%+ of the cases with the same result).
But i would never wait 6 days to send the key and expect a reroll after the 7th day. And i expect that the most long time gifters handle it the same way as i.
Second is writing on Steam profile.
I don't recommend this because it gave different sg users that got suspended for X days on steam for writing such profile comments about "you have won...".
I recommend each one NOT to write such steam profile comments.
Because of it, we need to know when the key was sent to the winner. It used to be that we don't have delivery system on SG, so keys were usually sent via email - which has time stamp. And while using SG delivery system is convenient, it does not show when key was sent. That's why we require proof that has a time stamp - best one is simply commenting in winner old GA. Second is writing on Steam profile. Both work as direct message to winner, just like email used to be.
I am not saying that this system is perfect, as with a time stamp when the key was made available to the winner on the giveaway page, timings could be shortened. But that's beyond support power to change, as it requires site code change.
The info for all gifters that the timestamp for sending the key is needed because no sg intern solution for the mods exists are a extreme important info.
I never heard this before from someone.
So firstly thanks for writing it and secondlly i advice to make this info more public (if in the FAQ, rules or wherever).
Of course is the screenshot each key send a extra work for the gifter that is unfair and on the long run dumb too, because it demotivate the gifters more as without this step (and it give already more as enough demotivating stuff for gifters [the comments in this discussion show this very well]). So cg cut in his own leg with not adding a basic log, a .txt file with date and time, would be enough when someone sended a key and a second info in the same log file, with the date and time, when someone delete the key. Of course this log files must be viewable from the staff members. And this logs could be automatic deleted after someone marked a GA as recieved or not recieved.
The users, special the gifters that hold this site alive and generate/secure cgs income/earning, shouldn't be punished for a missing, basic, thing that cg could and should implement.
Besides the fact that it create for the staff unneeded extra work (for the users too), so the staff should demand such a "feature" from cg.
We as users can bring it up too but the success rate would be at 0,00001% and i assume the success rate is much higher when the mods demand a basic feature.
Ps.: I made a few days ago around 30 GAs. Theoretical i need to screenshot each send key of this GAs with a timestamp and store this screenshots that i have a evidence when i request a reroll. If i don't need a reroll, i must delete the screenshots after X weeks.
And this amount of work is only for one gifter. Did the staff really expect that we gifters do all this work for every GA ??? and only because cg is too lazy to make a timestamp available for the mods ?
To answer it by myself, i will not do 30 screenshots (and for each other GA in the future), store this screenshots etc. because each screenshot can be faked very easily. Much lesser work as each honest gifter have with doing the screenshots (so the honest ones are, again, the dumb ones -as usual on sg-).
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That's all that he said and it is very relevant if a user have no experience with something, a bit or a lot. It's very unclear for me how you are able to see this different.
I saw people trying to argue they are right "because they are doing x for so long" too many times (not just here, but in real life), especially here in contrast with saying that someone is unaware of it, that it is how I read it. If it was not the intention, then it's my fault for acting on my communication filter.
If it give such a big change in the handling, then it should be pointed out what it mean for the future and in the ticket process.
I am a, VERY, active user and i don't seen a info about the different handling and none of the mods that handled my reroll tickets in this 3,5 years wrote something different or acted different as before.
Guidelines were basically re-made from the grounds-up. There was a public thread where questions about it could be asked. It was not made in a way of before-after, and if you read "known" sentence, it can be read how you think it's written. So I think many skimmed over it without paying much attention. But then it is really on us to enforce it, and if moderators did not follow how the rule is phrased - it is our failing. Plus, you don't micromanage people that work for long enough to know how to work. Only when it's brought up (like here) it's noticed.
i am not the only gifter that usually send the key a few minutes or max.
I was always aiming to end my GA when I know I will have time to send, and do it within an hour or so. But even when the majority of people are like us - sending game promptly - there will be always a small minority that would try to exploit it. And there is no easy way to prove it, like I wrote in other posts.
I don't recommend this because it gave different sg users that got suspended for X days on steam for writing such profile comments about "you have won...".
True, my advice without prompt that it should not be mentioned that people "won" something - due to Steam scam filters - should be avoided. I will amend it.
Of course is the screenshot each key send a extra work for the gifter that is unfair and on the long run dumb too
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/5FnASqO
Besides the fact that it create for the staff unneeded extra work (for the users too), so the staff should demand such a "feature" from cg.
We did bring up this issue and idea already, as we know it's frustrating for the creators. And it's not nice to come to a thread like this and see so many people assume our bad will, with asking for all those "unnecessary evidence". Though I understand how people can be frustrated if they don't understand how it works from our perspective. That's why I try to explain it a bit better here.
And I would not make screenshots of 30 GAs... Just if winner don't claim within 3 or 4 days (which should not be that many) - send reminder in old GA. See my above post.
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So basically, without a log (one god knows why you can't see the time of key sent in the logs) and for the rule you quoted we should send the key AND at the same time post a comment and e-mail even the winner just to be 100% safe for the 7 days.. Yet, I thought we had to wait 7 days to try and contact our winner or we are rude.. The whole thing makes no sense and everyone reads it as they want. But because I do public ga's and I ended up chasing many people some of which were ridiculous af, I want a VERY VERY clear set on this.. Step by step how to proceed because we get shut down by support or the winner himself (on one of my first ga's, my first bl was a winner that cried for annoying him 6 days and 23h after he had won.................... because the 7 days were not up!).
As I read this, we sent the key + add comment/mail/steam or even better all together creating a pile of spam and being called rude. Or else we suffer a 14 day+ punishment and probable loss of our key (my winner didn't saw it for 8-9 full days, others might). This makes little to no sense especially since we all say (staff and people) that the winner has 7 days
Edit: And what about deleting the key after 7 days?
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and for the rule you quoted we should send the key AND at the same time post a comment and e-mail even the winner just to be 100% safe for the 7 days
I was going to ask about the same thing because right now I am really confused. I don't take screenshots of posting the key nor do I write them unnecessary messages on their old GA's that they have won right after they won... also nowhere is stated that we should be doing that!
I think that some more responsibility should be laid on the winners because right now it seems like the gifter is supposed to prove everything meanwhile the winner can just wait it out.
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I would not try to chase people immediately, just leave a comment after 3 - 4 - 5 days if game is not claimed. And not with "what takes you so longggg" (I'm not saying you were rude by any means, just an example as it does rarely happen). But "hey, is everything all right with the game you won?" or similar. There are creators that send re-roll request after 1 day, as "they did not claim the win!", so winners knowing they have 7 days can get edgy. If comment is made in winner's old GA, and winner reacts "aggressively", we (support) can try to explain creators just try to make sure everything is in order, if they see someone logs in, but the game is not confirmed.
Edit: And what about deleting the key after 7 days?
I would keep it attached, otherwise (again a small minority of winners) could try to make screenshot of key not being visible, and claim it was not where when they tried.
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MSKOTOR, I have a high respect for the staff work and specifically for your work, but what you say is not feasible in many situations. Please take no offence, I understand that from your point of view that's how the system works, and you explained very well why things happen that way and what can we do to make things easier/faster/better. Also sorry for coming 4 days late to reply to this; maybe my issues have been replied somewhere else, but the thread has become too convoluted to follow the informational posts.
If there's a delay, while the winner just waits (often being seen online but not activating the wins which are clearly announced with the space cat), the creator must have, as you said, "clear proof that creator sent the win to the winner", which, first of all, it's not mentioned at all in the rephrasing from 3.5 years ago.
Second, I contributed with almost 150 GAs to the Xmas train which ends on 31st. Are you telling me that to avoid unnecessary delays, that shouldn't exist in the first place, I must send 150 "You won something from me, please redeem" comments in old wins or Steam profiles? Because if I don't do that, when there's a delay with a few users (given the dates and the amount of giveaways, it's expected), I connect with them, take proof, and have to wait 7 days since then? Sorry but it sounds quite ridiculous in cases like trains, events, very active creators, etc.
Certainly that rephrasing is incomplete - it should warn creators about that "clear proof" procedure. And then, would it take so much effort to add a feature that saves and shows when the win was sent? Because it would save a lot of delays for creators, a lot of tickets to staff, and will make users be more pro-active or lose their wins.
Now you don't need to reply me. It's just something I think (again) aloud. But it makes me sad that I also think these matters aren't brought to the staff forum(s) and discussed among you properly, hopefully with input/commentary from cg about its feasibility and convenience. Maybe from here we think it's a real bad system giving headaches and from there you see it's just a drop of water in an ocean that you've talked about a zillion times.
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As far as I know, not activating in time is grounds to grant a reroll request but not a giveaway deletion request. By then you might not have access to the sale or key that you were relying on for the giveaway. If your access to the gift is based on a temporary key/sale you should reach out to the winner immediately and upload screenshots of you contacting the winner and sending their key. Then cross your fingers and hope that your generosity doesn't come back and bite you in the ass.
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That last sentence is central to everybody's cited concerns I think.
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If you ask for a reroll after the user has not activated for 1 week, the mods will ask you for proof of attempting to contact them
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That's sadly issue with time-locked deals. I would personally not make GA when promotion is shorter than 10 days or so (and surely not with keys that expire in a few days...). Winner does have 7 days to activate from the time the key was sent to them. If it's on Steam it's also best to write in GA description that winner will be added on Steam to finalize it - that way they are aware they will receive invitation.
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yes i was aware.
i know that is kinda easy for me, but i never expect any Received. and not only cause i don't need giveaway' slots but learnt this lesson years ago: you never know what that winner silence could mean...
that time waited months for winner to mark it. once done he told me he was hospitalized...
plus, doing gibs but aiming for zero rerolls, whenever possible.
(didn't read all MSKOTOR said/wrote, but she usually right. pardon, she always is.)
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Personally, I'm not worried about g/a slots or leveling up. I do think it's fair to expect a giveaway owner to at least do the bare minimum and acknowledge the win by actually marking it as received though. I'm never going to look to see if people are playing their wins or what have you, but I don't want game keys sitting in limbo when they can instead definitely be claimed by someone who wants them for whatever reason, be it to actually play, to add a +1 or whatever. Either way, the winner is happy with the result of winning, which is the goal of offering the giveaway.
As far as MSKOTOR goes, S/He should be mindful of what the user base is looking for. That's what really alliws the site to thrive. Does anyone really want to see all the site's giveaways gated behind group and whitelist g/a's to combat bots and leechers? That seems to be the current consensus reaction to things once people tire of the current process.
<shrug>
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don't do that shrug, my man.
my view is different: can't see all those bots. can't see those autojoiners. or, wait... can't see those numbers folks seems to see here around.
leechers are welcome (and, iirc, learnt this from MSKOTOR!)
a mod's view, is different, tho. they see data you don't. ok, no NASA data but still something can help you enlarge your vision.
also -and lollin here- can't help my self to stress out that MSKOTOR is always, always right.
shrug!
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It wasn't a dismissive shrug. More of a different strokes for different folks shrug. ;)
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Does anyone really want to see all the site's giveaways gated behind group and whitelist g/a's to combat bots and leechers? That seems to be the current consensus reaction to things once people tire of the current process.
The site owner, and only admin, is the only one that could change this problem in the big picture and he don't care since 5 years.
The mods can only do small stuff against the autojoiners and burn out in the process, after XXXX hours of invested lifetime for stuff that could server sided handled in a few hours.
I believe it will first change when the autojoiners don't get feeded anymore, with low level public GAs, and the owner is forced this way to do something or let the site die.
With other words, i gave my hopes up, years ago and concentrate on my group where i can control that cheaters or other black sheeps cant join.
It is far from perfect but the best solution for the situation.
And as you seen, other ones have the same opinion about group/invite only/WL GAs as, nearly only, option to fight against all the abusers.
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As far as MSKOTOR goes, S/He should be mindful of what the user base is looking for.
We (as support) are not here to decide on the site rules. We are here to enforce current rules. We can of course propose stuff to cg that we think could be adjusted (like we did when we discussed drafts of the guidelines). And sometimes work in "emergency" mode when something really unexpected happens (like when dev gobbled up users emails to send them marketing material, or curator that was literally blackmailing devs into giving them keys "or they will use their Steam followers and excellent SG reputation" to throw their game into oblivion of negative reviews. Both users are not with us anymore).
But we won't have a chat and say "ok, from tomorrow we accept re-rolls even when winner was suspended ages ago! That will teach them!".
And it's a she. Ms KOTOR
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Interesting. Ms KOTOR. Cool name. I guess it's obvious in retrospect. :)
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she always is
I am obviously not, no one is. I clearly remember when I wrote that group GA can't be re-rolled, as the winner joined the group before GA ended. And it's "winner was part of the group when GA ended". So if you join group, join GAs, but are kicked before they end - it's re-roll reason. I still go to double-check each time I mention it somewhere 😅
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I wasn't aware of this interpretation of the rules, then again apparently the last time I had to ask for a re-roll was 6 years ago, guess I've been quite lucky with my winners.
But what I'm failing to understand is how it can possibly add up to 3 whole weeks. Even if you waited until the very last day (day 7) to attempt contacting the winner and then you had to wait an extra week before being able to ask for a re-roll, that's just two weeks max, unless you're adding in a potential delay for the ticket to be answered which shouldn't really be counted as part of the wait according to this interpretation of the rules. So your tittle sounds either overly pessimistic or outright misleading.
The way I see it the GA's creator has up to 7 days to deliver the key, and the winner has up to 7 days from the moment the key was sent to either activate it and mark as received or at least contact the gifter, and that only adds up to 2 weeks at max. Am I missing something?
BTW I just realized I've spread misinformation when someone asked about this by answering with how it used to work back in the day, which is clearly not correct anymore.
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Actually, you're correct. In going back and re-reading the mod's statement, it would be potentially two weeks + however long it takes for the reroll request to be addressed.
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It can sometimes be longer than 2 weeks in 2 situations:
- creator makes GA, waits week, then wait some more time (or just forgets), makes ticket, are asked for proof of contact and wait a week. In this way (because of creator delay to make ticket on 7th day) the whole thing will take longer than 2 weeks
- it doesn't happen currently thanks to all new mods that help - but before we could struggle at times to reply within 7 days of ticket being made - so you have week to wait from GA end, week to wait with ticket being open, and then being told to contact and wait 7 days. This is obviously our fault due to shortage of staff
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Yeah but in the first case it would take longer because the creator took longer than necessary, so it's not a flaw of the rules themselves, and in the second case it's just an unexpected delay, the support team being stretched too thin isn't a problem with how the rules are structured either. So counting those would be in the same line as not having access to the internet for a day thus delaying the creation of the ticket and then counting that delay as part of the intended timeline.
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Yes, here you are correct. I just wanted to point out that in rare cases it is possible that re-roll can take longer. I spent quite a bit of time making replies in this thread, so if someone is pointed here in the future they may read some other replies and be like "oh I did not know that!".
I did not write it as a poke that you are incorrect ;)
(Unless I'm no longer an Ultra Mod here, or it's really into the future. Then double check guidelines for any updates, or sent ticket in Other to ask for clarification)
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No problem, is just that I wanted to make sure that I understood it right since this whole thing started with confusion about exactly how many weeks it could take for a re-roll. All of this was new info for me so I felt it was better to be very clear that 3 weeks wasn't really accurate as an estimate.
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I have nothing to add to discussion.
I will just bump it.
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Same thing happened to me. I've sent a message on winner's Steam profile but got blocked by him (or maybe it was Steam auto script). So that message was deleted and I couldn't proof to support my contact attempt.
And SG support forced me to leave him a message on SG again and wait for another week. Even if winner have visited the site right after a win but never came online after
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*I do want to add what's been revealed by MSKOTOR: What S/He has basically explained is the reason the timer restarts when you contact a winner is because the mods can't see when you actually sent the gift, so all they can know for sure is when you reached out to the winner based on the time stamp of that message. Obviously that illustrates an easily solved flaw in the system. Since the system knows to alert the winner via email, it can't be that difficult to either include a timestamp at that moment on the giveaway, email the g/a creator along with the winner, etc...I do think various members have raised other related issues on this thread, and I think the mods should be paying attention to what the g/a creators on a g/a site think about the site, so I hope the conversation continues.
According to the rules:
"Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator."
However, according to a junior moderator:
"If they don't redeem their win and also don't contact you about issues and you then (have to) contact them in order to get a reroll ticket approved, then they have once again one week to reply to that.
If they still don't redeem their win within that second week and also don't mark the giveaway as not received, only then we can reroll."
I know the moderator in question didn't realize I hosted well over a thousand giveaways on my previous account before shutting it down two years ago. S/He asserts that "Every other mod will tell you the same since the rules are very clear on that.", and maybe that is currently true, but in reality, it's the very first time I've had a moderator interpret the rules that way.in seven years between my old shut down account and new active account. According to the mod, it's not at all contradictory.
This came up because a winner was unresponsive after winning, I waited five days before reaching out to them with the standard "You won a giveaway on SG and Congrats!" message (which apparently reset their seven days and also reset my seven days before being allowed to file a reroll request), and then filed a reroll request after the intial week. It feels to me like the giveaway creator is kinda being punished, but I also know that it's not a universal rules interpretation amongst moderators based on my previous "please reroll or mark as received" moderation requests (irrespective of this specific mod's assertion to the contrary), making it oddly subjective.
This isn't bash on moderation thread, but I am curious if anyone was aware of this interpretation of the rules, and if anyone can make it make sense that the "Winners will need to correctly mark their gift as received or not received within one week of the gift being marked as sent by the giveaway creator" rule exists if it isn't actually being enforced.
Giveaway for reading this (and apologies ahead of time, but the winner will receive a "you won" email from me when I send the key lol):
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/LHtRl/weird-west-definitive-edition
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