Oh boy, you mean devs aren't perfect and projects can fail? Let's start an online lynching mob like we normally do when something related to video games happens!
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Yeah. Why shouldn't people be allowed to sell stuff on false premises? If you pre-ordered a regular wedding cake, perhaps based on a catalogue description/photo, and you got a giant pink sponge cake phallus delivered on your big day, it would be preposterous to do anything other than politely thank the cake maker, before chowing down on a thick slice of confectionery helmet...
You, sir, are a model consumer. If only there were more like you.
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Why shouldn't people be allowed to sell stuff on false premises?
Isn't that how elections work?
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But it's not a wedding cage, it's a pizza, one that you ordered to keep you company while you're alone at home. And you didn't get it, or you got it with anchovies instead of pepperoni, and you really hate anchovies.
So you do you call the store and ask for your money back, and perhaps decide not to buy there again, or do you start threatening the store owner's family?
And even if it was a wedding cake, would you threaten the store owner? Is that your model consumer?
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A few wingnuts may threaten the store owner, but that's not the point.
Any self respecting pizza store where I come from would offer a refund in this case. They were totally aware of the fact that they had sent out pizzas topped with anchovies, and sprinkled with a light to medium dusting of powdered turd.
Slice of helmet or a little bit of sweet, sugary bollock on this happy occasion, sir?
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But I think that is the point. There's a small percentage of wingnuts, but on the internet, where numbers are amplified, they're enough to do damage. The first things that needs to be done is cut the wings of the nuts. They are much more of a problem than the store owner.
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They are two different things, and any threats which were made have little to do with PM's wrongdoing. The "accusations" that I have read about Molyneux are, in the main, absolutely spot on.
If he had done something to remedy the situation (ie offer refunds, or some other compensation), then he may have fared better. Unfortunately, he did little more than offer a solitary upraised middle finger at the people who had taken him at his word, and supported the project accordingly.
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This is also important:
"I’m not saying developers like Peter and I shouldn’t be responsible and shouldn’t be accountable for deadlines. I am just saying the reaction to recent events and the tone of that reaction are really way out of proportion to the seriousness of the events themselves.”
Here it states that they should be held responsible, it's just that it sounds like people are going overboard with the insults and threats, I think they got the message that they need to do something to save the sinking ship, but in all honesty, people should know by now that if you lie to the internet, you're going to get burned
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based on a catalogue description
No idea about Schafer but I don't think that fits any Molyneux game. He always gets excited in advance, but he's not like a shady Chinese dev (cough Crossfire, C&C cough) putting out photoshopped pictures and "gameplay"trailers that don't even show the game. Dunno about lately tho, maybe he got tired of your circlejerk and decided to fuck gamers over before retiring for a taste of your own medicine.
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He failed. I didn't pre-order Godus, and was lucky enough to avoid a nasty case of RSI from his abortive clickfest.
If a happy retirement is hanging up your mouse with your reputation in tatters, I applaud him for making some unprecedented strides towards this important life goal.
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His rep's been pissed on since Black & White which was a really innovative game, but the hypesters expected a 100% realistic omnipotence sim. I'd cash in one last time and burn the bridges, because, who cares?
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No, I mean stop whining like a little bitch when people get upset about you not delivering the product they paid for. "OMG THE INTERNET IS AFTER ME". Guess what, that's you being called to account.
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Pre-order =/= Kickstarter.
- With a pre-order, you are paying for a product which will be delivered to specification as promised. It is a purchase.
- With Kickstarter, you are putting money into the production of (something) which may or may not be successful. It is an investment.
Either way, it's a gamble. Kickstarter is a bigger gamble, but the rewards can be greater as well.
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And I completely agree with you. My overreaction in the post above was more related to the comment I was replying to than to two devs from the OP. Might I add - don't forget uncertain waters of Early Access (well at least prior to Valve's recent changed on what stage of development should a game be in to get into EA).
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Aye. Early Access is more like Kickstarter then a regular pre-order is. There's no guarantee that an E-A game will ever be finished, much less any promise of the condition in which it will end up. P
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If only Tim 'The Wallet Chafer' Schafer could sympathize with his customers instead of Peter Molyneux of all people.
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how surprising, two guys who always promised the world to their customers, year failed to accomplish half of it
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They should unite forces to make UBER GAME OF YOUR DREAMS project on kickstarter - a masterpiece of PR and false promises, get billion of dollars and then happily retire from gaming industry without even starting the development.
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They're basically selling the ability to play the game in 2015, with some sprinkles on top like improved characters and re-recorded music to justify the whole deal. Clunky mouse control and dev commentary isn't really something that adds value. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to be able to play this game again, but the remaster is a trifle more than a Windows 7/8 compatibility patch.
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Plus HD texture, plus lighting effects, plus re-mastered soundtrack plus uncompressed backgrounds. People are basically complaining that the remaster isn't a complete remake.
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As I said, "improved characters and re-recoreded music". I'm not really complaining, the game is out and is finally fully playable in modern day. But I do feel it was an missed opportunity to upgrade it even more and in the context of recent Double Fine output, it feels more an attempt at easy money than an honest endeavour of improving of an old gem.
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There is a lot of changes that would have required whole new assets to be created and those require time and money, two things that Double Fine might not have much in extra. I, for one, am glad they didn't change the models because I remember when the game first came out that they used the 3D limitation from the cards of the day and turned it into an art style. Some of the original intent would have been lost.
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"dev commentary isn't really something that adds value"
What?
Also much better than FAHRENHEIT remaster
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Tim Schafer sympathizes with Peter Molyneux. War, Famine, Conquest and Death also supports it.
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"... I can relate to that, believe it or not."
lol
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Some of y'all people feel to entitled. Sooner or later such attitude will bite you in the ass during your lifetime. And let me tell you, it'll be a painful bite.
Sadly, most people who complain the most haven't even created anything substantial and don't even know (in practice) how hard, time consuming and exhausting such work is.
"Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors."
I hope the tables will turn on you one day.
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but if you spend your money on something, are you not entitled or at least allowed to critique it in some way? How are you supposed to word your concerns/thoughts on a project you invested money on and actually don't like the results? Just because not everyone is a developer means they can't criticize it?
I have nothing against PM or Schafer personally since I am not affected in any form - but you really can't just say nobody can criticize a game, just because they are no developer.
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"We’ve seen some extremely rough treatment of Peter on the Internet and games press." There's critique and then there's just plain abuse. People like to think that they can say whatever vile garbage they want and justify it as critique. And there are different levels of... validity, to critique as well, based on experience with what's being discussed, how the person is connected to what they're judging, and on and on.
If someone was a major (monetary) backer of Godus then some anger is to be expected but if you had no stake in the project then you are free to critique but any anger at it's failures would be out of place and moving into the plain abuse catagory.
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I'm not saying RPS did it the right way, it was pretty harsh and you can call it even abusive. I was not talking about this specific case but hustlayo made a statement against all critic - I just don't think you can only validate criticizem from people who are doing the same thing (aka developer here). Of course there is different weight to it. On last part I'm not sure if I understand what you wrote (sorry if misunderstood) but it sounded to me like only people who didn't give money to kickstart godus have valid crticism because they have no reason to be angry at the failure of the project ?
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That quote is from Schafer and was only intended to highlight the difference between criticism and abuse. I'm not entirely sure who or what RPS is.
I'm mostly agreeing with you, everyone can criticize and it can all be valid but all criticism isn't created equally. I'm standing on a middle ground between you and hustlayo.
That's not really what I was trying to get across.
I've seen a lot of people that have no stake in Godus (purchase, kickstarted, etc) being very angry with PM which is just abuse in my book. Sure you can criticize him but spewing vile when you weren't effected is not acceptable behavior.
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Ah ok, then sorry for the misunderstanding. You are right, there are many people who are not directly affected by this and are still flaming and giving PM hell.
Oh and RPS = Rock paper Shotgun - the site where thes did the interview ..at least I think it was on RPS, correct me if i'm wrong.
I personally was rather shocked about some things PM said in this Interview, like that he intentionally asked for less money on Kickstarter knowing it couldn't possibly be enough for funding.He just didn't want to put a to big number on KS so people would be more willing to bake his project. Thats not in the spirit of crowd funding and comes across as deception of his bakers. I think in some points even outside people are allowed to critcize such behavior (as in this example) but you are totally right it shouldn't be abusive in any way, shape or form (best critique ist still constructive critique).
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I believe the complaint is not about criticism of the game, but rather about criticism of the people who were involved in the game. Ad Hominum attacks have less to do with debating an issue and more to do with insulting the other person.
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Thats true. The whole team is to be held responsible for anything that goes wrong, PM just happend to be face of the company and the KS project and with his backlog he was the ideal person to attack. In my ears hustlayo just made it sound like there ist no criticizm allowed unless you do exactly the same thing as the person you try to criticize and I was just going after that, not anything directly related to Molyneux or Schafer. Personal attacks are never a good thing but as the face of the company thats a risk you must take in the internet nowadays (not meaning it is ok to do anything of the sort)
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You don't need to be a cook to say that the food is rotten.
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Expecting a 5* gourmet meal at a McDonald's because they say it's "superior to every product we ever made" is still purely stupid, but it doesn't need to be rotten. It's just gonna be another crappy burger, as always. They're keeping their standard, it may or may not be a quality product depending on your taste, it will have a production value as usual, solid, but nothing fancy, and someone in development will find a lot of good things to say about it. The problem is you and way overhyped expectations about someone's idea of a game.
And then you go buy a blunder with faked teaser videos instead, from a company that never, ever delivered a quality product, simply because they never even uttered anything fancy. Because you only buy expectations. All BS aside, PM has made some good games. Never lived up to his hype. But still better products that most of his competition, IMO, with good ideas. Strangely, having ideas means getting punished nowadays, making shitty clones of the same game every year gets you filthy rich.
I'll leave the future of that to your imagination, but I already found a bunch of productive hobbies so my backlog will last a while.
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From an amateur creative perspective, I do wholeheartedly agree with you. Obviously over the top criticisms or threats are ridiculous. However, it's disconcerting when industry figures with numbered experience such as Schafer and Molyneux continue to stumble or even accurately conceive budgets/time constraints in endeavors like this. The whole caveat of crowd-funding is that you are putting your entire credibility on the line by cutting out the funding middleman. It is up to the backers to hold the creators responsible, because who else will?
Sure, some folks are being dramatards but that doesn't change the very palpable realities of directly making your customers your initial source of funding. In a lot of ways, it's much easier to deal with an official publisher. It's no small choice to turn to crowd-funding and certainly a significant shift in accountability.
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but why just blame the individual rather than the whole team that worked on the game
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I'd guess it's easier to blame a single person with a known face then an entire team. Plus in this case it's PM who has shown in the past to have a bad habit of over-promising so people build on that one too
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Exactly it's easier. you'll never see the same treatment to big companies like EA.
So yeah i can see why Schafer sympathizes with Molyneux. If things go wrong the whole height will fall on their shoulders
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“Critics are our friends, they show us our faults.”
Benjamin Franklin
I agree that people overreact about the Molyneux 'debacle' and Tim Schafer chiming in might not help either, but in general I think the critic about developers not delivering what they promise (at least to a certain degree and within reasonable time) is justified. The whole Kickstarter and Early Access way to develop games can bite the customer into his behind quite hard if they aren't careful. Those might be just two examples that people take to the extreme, but hopefully in general it makes developers and customers more aware of what they promise/expect. I don't think that criticism in general is a bad thing.
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......
Do we have like different definitions of what entitlement is or what?
I wonder if you would still think the same if you were one of the backer of Godus.
Granted, I haven't played much of Godus but from what I can see, game now devolved to some mobile clickatron trash compared to what Peter was trying to pitch back then.
The more I re-read it your post, the more I see how broken of a "well what did you made" falacy is. If i criticize a song, will it make my opinion invalid because I don't know how to play some instrument from it?
No one here is asking for free things, only something that was promised to them.
Would you say these backers are entitled as well?
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Read replies above. Most of those people are right. There's constructive criticism and then there's downright abuse. And people always jump on "hatred" (because it's no longer criticism at some point) bandwagon even if they haven't even heard of the game. I don't mind constructive criticism but nowadays it barely exists. What I see most of the time is hatred and boosting one's ego by putting others down which has nothing to do with criticism.
Also, people forget about being human. Yeah, so maybe he actually didn't do what he promised he'd do. Is that a reason to treat person like shit? Did he attack you? Verbally or otherwise? Gamers are like mad dogs nowadays that bite everyone around them. That's what I don't like, this blind hatred and most of those guys just looks for excuses to treat others like shit. Devs like Peter are just easy target for them, they don't even need serious excuses to bash him.
Just don't buy any more games from him and that's all. Say that it haven't met your expectations. That's all fine. But I'm against the hatred. It's out of place and Peter definitely doesn't deserve it.
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keeps failing to deliver
Well, there's always another blunder rehash for you to buy with no expectations, EA and Activision never fail to deliver...
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Last EA game I played was Mirror's Edge (maybe Alice after that, which one is older?) and I honestly don't remember when I played an Activision game. So your point is?
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I'm amazed he has time for that with all his love for Sarkeesian's cause and dropping support for games while over extending his budget on others.
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Black & White was my first (and thankfully only) burn from Molyneux... never bought into his hype after that, and that wasn't even that bad of a game -- just way over-hyped and over-promised before release. He seems like a nice guy, but he can't seem to help himself saying that a thing is definitely in whatever game he's making when there's only a chance that that thing might be possible to make (his people are actively working on it, his people are looking into it, or its something that just popped into his over-excited head). If he only hyped features that are 100% working and will definitely ship with the game, I think people would still be excited for his games and he wouldn't be an asshole.
Tim, on the other hand -- I think he just has a hard time with budgeting. He wants to (and is capable of) putting everything in his head into the game. He knows it's possible, but he doesn't know how to realistically schedule money and time for it. That plagues pretty nearly all game dev teams. But he rarely promises things that don't really have a chance to exist. Had DF-9 sold better, and brought in more money, I have no doubt they'd have been able to fulfill expectations. It didn't... and... that forced Double Fine to either be evil or bankrupt. They chose evil.
Still, there are plenty of features that didn't make it into the original Half-Life either. Quite a few creatures are only partially finished in the files (many of them showed up in mods), and I remember reading about how you could go back to the earlier sections of the Black Mesa and moss would be growing on the walls. But, compared to many of Molyneux's promises, these are small features. I think that's why Molyneux still (deservedly, imho) gets the hate.
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I’m not saying developers like Peter and I shouldn’t be responsible and shouldn’t be accountable for deadlines
Just fyi because the OP is trying to make a statement by cutting the interview to his needs.
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Do you:
a) Try to make it up to the supporters by continuing to work on the project in your free time trying to eventually get it done as promised
OR
b) Slap it as complete when the well runs dry, run off like a pansy, and tell everyone "oh well too bad"?
That's the problem with these game companies and giving them full paychecks for a set amount of time. It's just a paycheck, not a passion for a project. And if they wouldn't work 5 minutes of non-paid time to polish an aspect they've been working on for months, then of course it's going to be a failure. And why would you work extra time on something you're not getting paid further for? It doesn't matter....oh right, it [b]doesn't[/b]. If it did that'd be another matter entirely. That's why mediocrity stands out when we've experienced greatness. You can tell who put the time and who's idea was a fling that they're ready to dump at a moment's notice.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ#t=03m35s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ#t=08m16s and you'll understand this concept better.
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Sad how far Schafer has fallen. I'm waiting for him to hurry up and leave the business. Not surprising he's siding with the feminists because he knows that's where the money is, he's not completely stupid.
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preorders and projects aka kickstarter... i fell for some, but never again. best way to NOT be disappointed or angry.
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"We’ve seen some extremely rough treatment of Peter on the Internet and games press. I think it’s really unfortunate and unfair and I don’t think it’s healthy. Obviously, things did not go as expected on his game and because of that people are making some nasty accusations about Peter, and I can relate to that, believe it or not."
More here.
Color me surprised! Someone who has quite a few broken promises under his belt lately (Broken Age delays and delays, Spacebase DF-9 debacle, plus lazy Grim Fandango remaster) relates to the other guy who keeps failing to deliver. Hello, two peas in a pod?
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