Is it a good decision?
TIL that Rocket League has loot boxes. And here I thought it's all about cars and football. Well, still my wishlist game =)
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They added them at some point. It's all cosmetics for your car or name tag, but they're there.
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I like how Armello and Depth handle their "lootboxes" (you don't need keys to open these, so you don't have to pay anything).These four could learn a lot from other games :)
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Well they are not perfect either. In case of Armello (correct me if I'm wrong) you can buy loot boxes from Steam marketplace so it's still easy way for kids or addicts to spend tons of money to get them. So it doesn't really matter that you get and open them for free in game.
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Dota 2
not CSGO
not Overwatch
good initiative but I think it kinda missed the point
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The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
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I'd presume the four listed are the most popular in the country, so it makes most sense to target them
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The Dutch government has not released any list about with games they declared the lootboxes of actually being gambling. Source: The actual press release about the matter (I'm Dutch so I actually have read the source of this news message). OP has put wrong information in his post.
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Well most of it is true though, but the games OP named where speculations from the news source. The government said they will name the 4 games IF those 4 games don't change anything about their loot boxes in the next 8 weeks.
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CSGO would be considered gambling too, but Overwatch isn't, since you're unable to transfer the goods from the lootboxes
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Technically Overwatch loot boxes are gambling too because you do not know what you will receive when you open the box nor what are chances to get each of the available items, you can spend a million dollars or open million boxes and not get item you want.
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From what I've read, and there are a few outlets reporting on this, the big thing that lands some companies in legal trouble (and the reason only 4 out of 10 are deemed illegal) is the ability to trade & cash out your items . So for now, Overwatch seems to be safe,
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Overwatch would likely just get out with a slap on the fingers, considering the ability to cash out your prizes was the thing that could land the companies in legal trouble (even if it's not cashing out through official channels). The translations do differ a between between different news outlets. Some mention cashing out for money, other trade, although anything you can trade, you can in theory turn into money so I guess it's in the end a matter of semantics. Also, they only looked at 10 games here, so there will of course be plenty of games they missed.
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What? This is one of the most arbitrary decisions I've ever seen in legislation about games. Three out of the four are entirely cosmetic loot boxes (don't know about FIFA, but pretty sure you can unlock players and stuff), and of those three, they are far from the worst offenders in the market.
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That's true, they should treat all games with loot boxes the same and hopefully they eventually will. But it's not really about if items from loot boxes give you in-game advantage (which is bad too) but that it's a gambling that leads to addiction in the same way like sports betting or casino games do. However loot boxes are not regulated/restricted like the "regular" gambling.
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The biggest issue at hand is that children have access to this sort of gambling, unlike in casino´s where they´d be seen out immediately. Gambling as such is´nt illegal (hi lottery!), suspecting (? ... can´t even find the correct german word right now) minors to it is.
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It's interesting that the loot boxes are acceptable to them, unless the won content is tradable. I probably would be harsher on the developers.
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If the content is tradable it holds value, I think is the thinking
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lol of course valve's csgo and tf2 were left untouched. can't risk angering them. ^^
as long as they don't declare vermintide 2 lootboxes illegal, they can ban everything else <3
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there were rumors about this few weeks ago. they really made it :D
it's a Yes, as long this becomes something -at least- european.
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Rocket League is illegal gambling, but CS:GO, TF2, and Overwatch are not.
'Kay.
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Why do so many people mention Overwatch in this thread? I don't own the game (I'm considering buying it next time it's on discount though) but I heard you get loot boxes every time you level up, for events and for playing arcade modes aside from you also being able to buy extras.
So for me it seems like in OW you can get lots of them just by playing and spending money is optional.
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"Spending money is optional" is the general cop-out answer of all these games. It is optional in PUBG, CS:GO, Rocket League, Shadow of War, even in the original version of Battlefront 2 (2017).
They are still the same system. And people spend an asston of money on Overwatch to get some of the rare skins and poses.
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Note: the news release lists Rocket League among the 10 games that the gambling authority looked into, but they did not announce which of the 10 games are illegal gambling.
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Ten “very popular” loot box games have been looked into, and four have been declared gambling and illegal. The ones that were declared gambling were Dota 2, FIFA 18, Rocket League, and PUBG.
The Dutch government has not released any list with games they declared the lootboxes of actually being gambling. Source: The actual press release about the matter. So the games you called are a false (until official confirm from the government, which will be given if the 4 games don't change anything in the next 8 weeks).
Also the key factor for the decision which games' their lootboxes are considered gambling has been whether you can sell them for money or not (like CS:GO or DOTA2). Games like Overwatch where you can't sell those items for money isn't considered gambling (in the current regulations, but I won't be surprised if they gonna make those regulations even more strict so that OW also becomes gambling).
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I'm not Dutch but if you read the reddits I posted, you see the info about games comes from https://nos.nl/artikel/2228041-populaire-games-overtreden-gokregels.html which is Dutch news agency. It is up to everyone to decide if it's fake news or not but the government is not forced to release such information in press statements of any kind until they decide to act, in this case fine the developers or ban their games.
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I know where the info about the games come from, I've read the source (I am Dutch btw). Those games where named by the news agency as speculations. In the same article they said:
In het onderzoek noemt de Kansspelautoriteit geen namen van games die de regels overtreden. Als de spellen niet worden aangepast, worden de namen wel bekendgemaakt.
Which translates to
In the study, the Gaming Authority does not mention names of games that violate the rules. If the games are not modified, the names will be announced.
So the 4 names named in the article are speculations.
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not quite. The four listed games are among those that the gaming authority looked into.
The article says the main issue is that there's a secondary market where the loot items can be sold for real money - those games are problematic. So CSGO is almost certainly among them
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another link to add to the OP, https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/8dda44/dutch_gamble_authority_loot_boxes_are_illegal/
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About time! Glad some politicians have the balls to defend players.
I don't play any of the games mentioned but I do play ESO and the crate spam bothers me.
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FIFA gambling practices have been disgusting for some years now. I am glad
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nice one. this should apply to every single game which has loot boxes and brought us all this gambling/scam websites and games full of cosmetics where you have to pay a fortune to get them which obviously attracts kids like a magnet.
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Good news. I was never a big fan of loot boxes. I wonder how the developers will respond.
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Dutch Players will no longer be able to trade or use the Steam Marketplace for CS:GO and Dota 2 [Reddit]
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"Thank you for investing in our services and products! We knew that this day was going to come, but we purposefully did not warn you about it. Instead, we would like to freeze your inventory and make it impossible for you to sell/trade anything you have so wave bye-bye to any money you've got invested. Again, thank you so much for staying faithful to us, we shall not return the favour and fuck you!"
That's literally what it reads for me.
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Tbh I wouldn't have any reason to be against gambing If no minors would play those games, but lets face it! A big percentage playing those games are kids and having them gamble from a young age is at least unethical!
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Don't give a child a credit card and the solution is simple. They can't gamble without money to buy keys or additional boxes. Adults should be able to moderate on their own.
Trying to put additional regulations on the public when the issue is easily solved by something as simple as being aware of what your child is involved in should not be within the scope of national legislation.
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CS:GO is exclusively for adults, the age rating is M and 18+, there's tons of games that are indeed aimed towards kids so choosing CS:GO is purely because of it's profits.
Someone hasn't played CSGO enough to know that most people who play it are not even 18yo.. XD
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The whole point of the complaint is that the law hasn't been updated
Article here: https://www.nu.nl/games/5320985/valve-neemt-in-nederland-maatregelen-lootboxhandel-in-csgo-en-dota-2.htmlQuote from article: "In Nederland zijn online kansspelen nog niet toegestaan. Dit betekent dat dergelijke spellen verboden moeten worden. >Een nieuwe wet die online gokgames mogelijk moet maken, is in de maak. Maar het voorstel ligt al lange tijd bij de Eerste Kamer."
Your whole complaint started that this "only serves to protect the state's monopoly on gambling". You stated 0 about the fact the law hasn't been updated. Which in fact isn't outdated, it just bans online gambling because regulations haven't been made.
So this is a case of needing to update laws, you can keep arguing that it's because of children having access to it, but that's simply not true because the wording in the law doesn't actually forbid what Valve does
False, Valve is in the every wrong. From your quote from Dutch law on gambling (Wet op de kansspelen):
"Artikel 30u
1 Het is de exploitant van een speelautomatenhal verboden personen de toegang te verlenen:
a. die de leeftijd van achttien jaren nog niet hebben bereikt;
b. waarvan niet op deugdelijke wijze is vastgesteld dat deze de leeftijd van achttien jaren nog niet hebben bereikt.
Valve doesn't do this, they don't prevent minors from anyway to buy lootboxes (a). No a field to put in your date of birth doesn't count, since they don't check whether the user is lying (b).
2 Het is de in het eerste lid, onder a, bedoelde personen verboden in een speelautomatenhal aanwezig te zijn.
Valve allows to get minors into the "speelautomatenhal" (your inventory screen where you can see and open your cases).
The law does not take online activities into account
Quote from the article that started all this:
"Ze [de lootboxes] zijn ontworpen zoals gokspellen zijn ontworpen, met het gevoel dat je bijna hebt gewonnen", zegt Marja Appelman, directeur van de Kansspelautoriteit. "Er zijn allerlei geluidseffecten en visuele effecten als je zo'n loot box opent. Daarmee heb je de neiging om door en door te spelen."
Which goes hand in hand with Article 30 from Dutch law on gambling (Wet op de kansspelen), which directly describes what is considered to be a gokmachine (slotmachine):
speelautomaat: een toestel, ingericht voor de beoefening van een spel, dat bestaat uit een door de speler in werking gesteld mechanisch, elektrisch of elektronisch proces, waarbij het resultaat kan leiden tot de middellijke of onmiddellijke uitkering van prijzen of premies, daaronder begrepen het recht om gratis verder te spelen;
So considering this, it makes completely sense to declare it illegal.
which is why Valve stated that they're having trouble understanding the kansspelautoriteit's claim
Trouble understanding the kansspelautoriteit's claim, which they managed to comply with in a consumer unfriendly way that also allows them to keep making money without any loss of profit.
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Yeah, that guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Not to mention he ain't even Dutch yet acts like he knows a lot about our government.
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I think maybe because your Steam profile says you are from Liechtenstein, won't comment on any of the other stuff because I don't want to join the discussion ^^
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Well, you do say that the Kansspelautoriteit is a branch of the department of justice, even though it's a zelfstandig bestuursorgaan.
You also say they're responsible for enforcing the state-run monopoly on gambling, which is at best a severe misunderstanding about how gambling regulations function.
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Strange to see Rocket league in there. It's purely cosmetic, i have opened zero loot boxes.
Plus cars seem to be bought as DLC. Not that i bought any.
of course some people are simply addicted to the gambling aspect, it doesn't matter if the item does absolutely nothing. Just saying, there are worst cases.
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I guess you find that strange simply because you like the game (which is understandable, don't get me wrong). I think the gambling discussion really has nothing to do with whether the items are or aren't purely cosmetic. I believe Dota 2 also has just cosmetic items. Same goes for CSGO and others. What might play a role in this discussion is whether the items can be sold for money or at least steam wallet (since this seems to be part of the definition of gambling for some).
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have been declared gambling and illegal
Somebody noticed :D
Good.
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I fail to see how this would be exempt from gambling, since the contents are still randomly generated and you cannot exit and go back to the store to see the next one, only by purchasing a box and getting another in the queue. Still a game of chance, only skipping the opening part.
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It's only a option, not must-use. And it's far away from gambling...
These times...some people must use brain, cause some people does't use it...
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Playing in a lottery is only an option, not must-use. So therefore it's all of a sudden not gambling???
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what is gambling? or better worded, is sg gambling?
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Yes, but not for real money. For some and for many laws, gambling would have to actually include paying real money at some point for the prizes, but here, it is not true.
However, just like playing online poker for free fake money, this is a similar online raffle system, which is like gambling, but you cannot lose money on it.
Unless you are the one posting the giveaways. (Except those who live off from developer keys.)
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Or those who use Steam wallet for gifts instead of real money :)
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In various countries: yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweepstake
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Strange that Rocket League would be listed. Based on the 2nd Reddit thread, the issue was that the items can be traded and can earn money, which is only half true for Rocket League. While the items can be traded, no money can be made via the trading method offered by the game and there is no Steam trading. True, money can exchange hands in outside of the trading system but this is not acceptable behavior and not within the bounds of the game.
The same could be said of selling any item or account for money in any game ever made. Previously, Diablo 3's marketplace would've been a prime example, you paid for the game and have random chances at loot which you could sell for real money within the game itself. Now its a bit different but there are many other games with items for trade that could be paid for outside of the game. It could also be argued that the trading cards that comes with playing certain Steam games, as well as their backgrounds and emotes from turning them in, are a form of gambling as money can be made from it and is based on random chance.
It would have been interesting to see what would've happened if Steam/Devs/Publishers took a stance and blocked the games in the Netherlands entirely so they complied with the ruling. I wonder if it would have forced a big enough backlash to reverse the decision. If not they could've changed the game at a later time, otherwise it would've been unfair to the current and future players.
Edit: Forgot to add my two cents. In some regards this is beneficial, such as those who have compulsive problems, however other avenues will exist for them to feed their compulsions. I'm afraid that loot boxes will turn from a relatively cheap thrill to an expensive pick and choose model as the publishers/devs will still aim to make their money. Instead of the $2 or whatever lootbox it will be the $20 and up skin.
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Pasted from THIS and THIS reddit:
Ten “very popular” loot box games have been looked into, and four have been declared gambling and illegal. The ones that were declared gambling were Dota 2, FIFA 18, Rocket League, and PUBG.
The dutch government will be giving 4 big developers 8 weeks to remove loot box gambling systems from their games, otherwise they have the risk of getting a fine and their game of the shelves in Dutch physical and online stores.
(more info under the links above including Dutch source)
So, do you think it's a good decision? Personally, I'm very happy about it and I hope more countries will follow, although all games with loot boxes should be treated the same way even if the boxes contain only cosmetic and non-tradable items (like in Overwatch). The sooner the loot boxes are eradicated from all games the better for everyone.
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