Go check 5:39 and 6:15
You might wanna delete your own coments :)
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Common sense has flown out the window.
Just because you don't know enough on a subject, it doesn't mean that the things aren't there. I'm also not your teacher and I don't have to write a book to explain things to you. IF there is a need for that, for someone RELEVANT, then yes, I would. Unfortunately, you aren't that important to waste so much time. I can't help with a lost cause.
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lol right. Thank you for spending a chunk of your all too valuable time replying to diss me though.
You'll be happy to learn that was not time wasted as my ignore list has now grown.
And wow look. Two more chunks of time wasted. I feel basked in the glory of importance.
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Yes, because, clearly, I care so much for that xD
You only "prove" that, like many more, all you care about is internet "air".. But I didn't expect anything different from you.
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I thought barter was a TRADING site, not a RESELLING site? I might be wrong, though (as always when it comes to you).
By the way, Is there a way to contact the dev? ^^
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Go check your friend's amount of reviews and their paid followers. Jealous much? You can keep looking all day, perhaps get a free contact or 2 :) More fans are welcomed! ^^
Barter is a trading site. It doesn't mean everyone is using it in the way it was meant to be used. Just like many other systems including steamgifts. But I guess you like "blind lottery trading" from closed groups and your friends dev keys. You like seeing them being high level with free keys^^
It makes sense to support something that benefits you and you probably would love to enter even more :)
You keep spamming contact requests like that's supposed to say something?..
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I couldn't care less about what "my friend" is doing elsewhere, I only know her (if you're talking about the same friend) from Steamgifts and that's enough for me.
I hadn't noticed you here until recently. Also, you're not on my whitelist and I saw that you publicly called someone who actually is on my whitelist "barteediot's slut". That's enough for me, too. :)
But I guess you like "blind lottery trading" from closed groups and your friends dev keys. You like seeing them being high level with free keys^^
I couldn't understand a word of what you said here, you're implying quite a lot in your comments and you know nothing about me ^^
You keep spamming contact requests like that's supposed to say something?..
Dunno, just sharing information with people (like Jesse ^^ did) so they can decide if it means anything for themselves :)
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And your whitelist must mean something to anyone? Or for some reason you are the only person that is allowed to "judge" someone's character or if they worthy and thus, being on your whitelist?
Unfortunately for you, you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say you only know them from here and that's enough for you and then you go on a random hunt on me because I offended them. On the other hand that's enough for you too and "I'm implying a lot in my comments and I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOU", meanwhile.. guess what.. You know nothing about me either :) You know OF something I wrote and you don't even care why.
Which brings me to my second point. You keep blaming me for ALWAYS wanting to be right (which btw, I'm not. When I don't know something, I merely refrain from stating a random opinion and hold my tongue or ask), yet you act as everything you do/say is always right. In this case, your whitelist and your uninformed opinion.
Keep spamming contact requests.. That's all you are good for ^^ (I haven't the slightest idea who this Jesse might even be)
Edit: That's how much you care for your friends? That you know nothing about them outside of sg? And then somehow they are "important" enough to.. defend them?.. Mindlessly?.. Where did your logic go?..
That's your top tier friends? Randoms in a whitelist on a random site on the internet? Everyone should be proud to be your friend.. ^^
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First and last time I am answering you. The following is not meant to hurt you, troll you, diss you, attack you or anything else.
I just want to say that, judging on everything I have seen from you over the past years but especially over the last week, I strongly advise you to go see a professional regarding your mental health.
I have worked in this field for many years, although I am neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist. But I am well versed with mental illnesses, or better said: all F-diagnoses within the ICD.
Since I am not a doctor, I refrain from diagnosing anything, although I have a strong feeling what the culprit might be. I just strongly advise you to see someone and talk to them.
If they don't share my concerns, fine, you have proof that you're okay and I'm wrong and you can insult me for it all you want. But if I am right, it might put you on a better path in life.
To repeat: This is not meant to hurt you, diss you, attack you or anything else. I am just very open regarding mental health and have over a decade of professional experience.
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I've read a lot of different crap over the years and a lot of insults. When all arguments end, someone will always try and go personal or write something pseudo-deep, vague or random to derail the convo to pretty much anything else than the subject at hand. Especially where your comment is placed, speaks volumes.
What you are trying to do isn't to warn me about anything. But you do like to play the "nice guy" card with others. Unfortunately, you care that much for internet "air". Just like others in this post.
If you indeed had any real experience in the field, you wouldn't be having any concerns nor you'd write in this fashion.
All you do is writing a bunch of bs and waiting for the next doggo to appear.
But I do admit, your approach was funnier and slimier than usual.
If everything else weren't enough, you are insulting both those with mental issues and those experienced in dealing with mental issues. Congratulations, you just earned yourself a cookie!
Meanwhile, you can't find anything at all to say in regards to the actual topic. But thanks for the.. "concern"! It was a real eye-opener.. For others that still have any critical thinking left in them^^
PS: you might be glad to know that the youtuber said he is leaving the topic alone :) This will make you extra happy! But I do have a feeling that this will change
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I'm not hiding what I'm doing unlike your friend that turned to private faster than Road Runner after that video dropped :)
Go and give a hand to your coworker in spamming random contact requests^^
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Oh I remember the guy, he made a video before about buying his own game key from a shady website and was surprised "curator" sold it, heh. If all the devs knew everything, scammers would have 0 keys to resell.
Meh, watched the video, nothing really new. I'm more surprised he's shocked and surprised this is happening.
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He does seem a bit naive as far as his awareness of this stuff is concerned. It is interesting watching him learn about it though. And the whole buying a key to his game from a reseller is kinda wild.
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Somebody check 5:39 and 6:15 :)
"Father's account and 15 friends" https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/Dgscb/a-list-of-games-whose-unredeemed-keys-were-revoked/search?page=19#KGMbA0O
Yeah, numbers mean so much.. Herd
The timing of this is truly amazing :)))
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That's the problem nowdays.. Critical thinking is absent and just seeing numbers (that can easily be manipulated) somehow is the holy light..
It won't change much (yet). But it's a start
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This guy mentioned steam trades though and barter(very slightly pointing that some users will mention a key is a curator key), but generally you buy a bundle and trade your extras for different keys. Now I rarely trade, got a st rep of like +2 lmao but there might be people more dedicated to this and I understand that. I got over 500 keys myself that are extras, none of which are curator keys since I don't have a curator, but I bet if the guy in the vid knew that, he'd lose his eyeballs, and yet I've paid fairly for all my keys. Like he pointed out that acc with 30k games and called him for sure a scammer because he owns so many games, and he said they're there for trading??? like what kinda baseless accusation is that, all from some e-mail he got from someone else based on what? Users can't trade games from their library so it doesn't matter how many games he has. Heck if he's a curator and has 31k games it means he bought most of his 31k games to his acc. That's a +rep imo. You ain't just gonna stumble on an acc that got 31k games gifted from curators. That's bs.
Don't get me wrong, he has something going on here, but his argument falls flat because this youtuber doesn't know steam enough to understand how it works, but apparently he does just enough to somehow post his game on it. At the same time, this guy just sent multiple keys to each top voted curator's so they all had more keys than they could use to review the game. Somewhat hilarious he thought the curator program wasn't just an actual joke. Imagine when he finds out people join curator groups for benefits like joining giveaways and whatever.
Heck someone send him a link to steamgifts and then he's gonna portray CG as the mastermind new world order creator cat overlord key trading faciliator that steam has been working in tandem with since 1752 when the aliens first descended upon mar..... you get my point. Or maybe he will make an acc and give his keys away here and that way he can track who they go to next time.
PS: even Lily, the person who makes the masterlist for all the current bundles on release is in that video and accused in one of the e-mails for selling/trading curator keys of that dev on barter vg. How they were acquired idk and under what contract they were given.
Bottom line imo: If devs give curators extra keys to spread around, that's the devs problem because you don't know that user personally nor are you paying that curator in any form for them to go to through the effort of finding users to play your game for you and test it out. So giving curators extra keys means that the curator now has to get rid of them somehow, and if you're surprised some of them will trade them for things including currency, then you're disconnected from reality. At the same time, if you're a curator and you do this because you know you can exploit the system and it benefits you, you're a poop being and you know it.
As for steam, they designed it in this goofy way, but I'm certain this was obvious from the launch of the program years ago, at least I knew this would happen back then. As for what they should do, they should limit the # of times a user can be an admin in groups to 1 to prevent users boosting each others` groups and finding such exploits, and when a curator key is given it should be sent to the owner who then has the opportunity to pass and it gets sent down to moderators, who can pass to users, who can pass and then it gets returned, unused, unseen to the dev. as an example. So if multiple keys are sent, the group owner can only reveal one, and the rest get passed down to other users, and the unrevealed keys get sent back to be canceled or sent somewhere else. So valve's currently implementation is a entry level programmer's implementation, and they should step it up to senior programmers because I'm 100% sure they don't hire programmers with 0 experience so they got no excuse there.
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Personally, I would like to see curator licenses revoked after a certain amount of time if a review attached to that license isn't posted. It's not a perfect solution, but it would be a step in the direction of cleaning up curation and restoring some legitimacy to the program. Won't happen, but it's something I'd like to see. It would be easier to implement for games with cheevos, as you could also attach some sort of achievement minimums to the review as well.
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I mean this would be a step in the right direction. To track achievement things tho they'd probably have to ban SAM, I forget if it's vac or not, but plenty of software's let you fake achievements still I think. Just having them post a review after the avg playtime attached with a in game screenshot or something should be proof enough imo. Curator's over 10k followers maybe should have to attach a video gameplay or something like that to be able to gain more followers on their acc, if that makes sense. I think depending on the influence of the curator, more responsibility should be required.
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I like where you're going with this. The video idea in particular sounds very doable.
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Yeah. There definitely needs to be better systems in place to combat plagiarism. To me, that's actually an easier problem to address since a person can google reviews to see if they've been posted elsewhere. This was actually the first thing I used to do when editing reviews submitted by our writers on a gaming site I worked for years ago. There just needs to be somebody to check these things.
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I had the very same thoughts. I only jumped through some segments of the video but very little he presented showed that people actually did something wrong. "Someone assured me the traded game keys were stolen" ... what the heck? That's all he got?
Huge trading numbers and many activities in the Steam communities prove nothing besides some people being heavily into trading. And you can achieve that by being experienced, well connected or for whatever other reason than being a cheat.
Anyway, it hasn't been a secret that giving away keys to curators is a bad idea. I never even understood why anyone considers curators in Steam helpful. Be it as a user or as a developer.
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Yeah definitely many trades would get accused for this but the overwhelming majority have nothing to do with it. While a big problem some curators are doing it, the video to me kinda somehow seemed to paint a bad picture of how a trader with many trades, keys or whatever is likely to be frauding keys or something of the sort but that's not true. So it puts a whole bad image on those who buy bundles, and swap out their extras and if that was to get punished, it would only hurt bundles, because then why would you buy a bundle if you couldn't trade the keys for something you don't own? I do think the video maker is making a good point that steam should redo the curator system but not sure if genuine people have to get caught up in the misfire from valve. Who's to say they didn't already ban someone by mistake for this for no reason other than we think so and we know how almost impossible it is to fight an unfair ban. Video poster made an acc below and said valve already took some action against some of these users, so I wish I knew with what degree of certainty valve issued the bans.
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This guy mentioned steam trades though and barter(very slightly pointing that some users will mention a key is a curator key), but generally you buy a bundle and trade your extras for different keys. Now I rarely trade, got a st rep of like +2 lmao but there might be people more dedicated to this and I understand that. I got over 500 keys myself that are extras, none of which are curator keys since I don't have a curator, but I bet if the guy in the vid knew that, he'd lose his eyeballs, and yet I've paid fairly for all my keys. Like he pointed out that acc with 30k games and called him for sure a scammer because he owns so many games, and he said they're there for trading??? like what kinda baseless accusation is that, all from some e-mail he got from someone else based on what? Users can't trade games from their library so it doesn't matter how many games he has. Heck if he's a curator and has 31k games it means he bought most of his 31k games to his acc. That's a +rep imo. You ain't just gonna stumble on an acc that got 31k games gifted from curators. That's bs.
Agree 100%, (though I've never used ST and only logged into barter once.)
I probably have over 200 unused/unwanted keys (some of which are no doubt worthless, duped or revoked at this point because of their age). No one in the groups I care about seems to want some of them.
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Heya! Creator of said video here. Gonna make a quick video tomorrow since there's been a lot of updates in a very short time frame.
In the meantime, I'd like to clear a few things up regarding the video and why it was made:
If you feel like it was lacking context (which it is for a lot of parts), you should see the first video I made on the subject, which showcased much more of the story, and does a much better job at showcasing what I know.
I saw a few comments from people saying I don't seem to know much about Steam or how it works, and I don't! Never really claimed to. Calling me naive in this context is fair. I wasn't trying to blow anyone's world open with this video. As I stated myself, this stuff has been known about for years.
The reason I made the video is simply because I was approached by lots of people who had information I lacked, and some of them specifically wanted me to use their info for a follow-up. While the first video I made was more of an in-depth investigation, this one is little more than a quick report. In fact, the reason I probably do come across as quite naive is simply because I relied entirely on the information that had been provided to me by other people, and very little of it stemmed from my own research. I know very little about the world of trading or how it works, so I'm sure some of the details I mentioned mean nothing. I just pointed out what I found to be interesting, and left most things open to interpretation.
(It's because of my reliance on other people's info that I kept telling people to take things with a grain of salt and such.)
Since the people here are experienced traders who know exactly how all of this works, I wouldn't be surprised if my video comes across as some kind of "attack" on your community, but I want to emphasise that this simply isn't the case. You have to understand that I went into this knowing that a lot of the people who were brought up were already proven scam artists (again, context from the previous video helps), hence why I approached everything with a heavy sense of scepticism.
I'm sure a lot of you are already well aware of everything I mentioned in the video (and perhaps more), so it likely won't receive more than a shrug from most of you, and that's perfectly fine. I'm nothing more than an outsider peeking into a niche of the internet I'm unfamiliar with.
That said...
While a lot-- Perhaps the vast majority-- of this community is completely innocent, what I said about scams taking place is true. I've proven it myself. But don't take my word for it: Valve has actually taken action, as dozens of groups and users have suddenly been removed from the site entirely. This is what I'm planning on talking about in tomorrow's video.
Going through this stuff has been very interesting, and I hope your community continues to prosper, but hopefully with less sketchy trades in the future. ;P
All the best,
Dash
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Welcome to the site. You'd probably have better user reach here than using a curator, either by making +2 lvl giveaways(to avoid most bots, I could explain if you want me to) or by making a thread looking for specifically interested individuals(although you could do that in the discussion forums). However here, if they don't activate it on their own accounts from a giveaway they won you can make a ticket and they get suspended for it, so at least that's something, on steam if you just send someone a steam key, they can do whatever and there's no repercussion.
As for the vids, I'll check out tomorrows, but I'm hoping if there's more claims, that there are some sources. I understand some don't want to be named, but that's as good as me saying "trust me bro".
I am curious however if before you used the curator system, did you read up on it? If you did, did you not notice how it could be exploited and did you send multiple keys to the same curator? I would like to know the process you went through if you're willing to explain.
PS:
@TheNamesDash "Going through this stuff has been very interesting, and I hope your community continues to prosper, but hopefully with less sketchy trades in the future. ;P"As for this, this is a giveaway site sir, we give what we can afford, can't use or don't want to sell to others, and in return we have the chance to enter giveaways others have made for things other can let go. Trading is forbidden here. Try it if you want see what happens.
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I believe it's unfair to blame the developer in this case, because reading up on the curator page you will see that this shouldn't happen and isn't allowed. https://store.steampowered.com/about/curators/
"Are there rules for Steam Curators?
Yes. We have a couple of rules that govern the use of the Steam Curator feature:
The problem is that these rules and guidelines aren't enforced at all.
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From the page you linked, it seems the devs are using the system wrong.
As listed on the steam page, it works this way:
What happens when I send a copy of my game? When you send a copy of your game to a specific Curator, the game will appear in a dashboard to members of that Curator with permission to accept games via Curator Connect. Each member with the necessary permission will also receive an e-mail notification alerting them to new games pending via Curator Connect. Each member can then select to accept the game on their account or to ignore the game. You as the developer have a dashboard to see the copies you've sent to each Curator and how many have been accepted.So from what I'm noticing sending keys through e-mails to curators asking for them manually, is doing it outside the curator system. So then valve does have a proper curator system, devs just aren't using it? In the first video of this dev, I think he was sending keys through e-mail. I might remember wrong, correct me however.
Also, I see the rules you posted, but there's no mention that you can't sell or trade keys you've been given, so they aren't doing anything against TOS, and the dev itself does mention they aren't breaking the rule technically, although he did mention steam has given some punishments to some groups or users in a vid he's going to post proof tomorrow. Still technically it isn't against the steam rules to do so.
EDIT: As an extra, it seems paid reviews are actually allowed, just should be disclosed. So you could fake positive reviews for a game for money all you gotta do is say "this review has been paid for, game very good totally"
Are there rules for Steam Curators?
Yes. We have a couple of rules that govern the use of the Steam Curator feature:
a) Whatever you write when making a recommendation is subject to the same rules and guidelines as other Steam User-Generated Content, as stipulated in the Rules and Guidelines For Steam: Discussions, Reviews, and User Generated Content.
b) A recommendation should not link to or promote any stores other than Steam.
c) If you've accepted money or other compensation for making a product review or for posting a recommendation, you must disclose this fact in your recommendation.Comment has been collapsed.
Many people are using the curator system as they should, and it's abused. You can just promote a new person into officer, they get rights to claim a game sent through the curator system. They activate the game, then they leave the group/curator.
It's super easy to use it for trading, even if the devs sending keys as they should.
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Fair point, I suppose there should always be ways to think of how can this be exploited further and how can we prevent that. In the case of what you suggested, kind of like what they did with family share, they should limit how often you can switch positions, so if they leave a group they were administrator in, they can't be admin in another group for another year or maybe a few months. Fair imo, prevents abuse. Also, they should limit the offer to only be available to the moderators that were in that position at that time, to prevent boosting and dropping accounts as well. Doable in code somewhat easy, not sure how much data it would take to store all that but it would be something along the lines of "group x has members a b and c as of may 6, dev sends offers and system registers current curator admins, they kick c out and promote d to admin, however d wasn't there when the offer was sent, and so d is not able to take on the offer, and the offer still stands for a and b, but not c since he was kicked out".
I've bought many keys before but I've never been told hey you gotta join this group, we'll make you admin so you can claim the key, etc. Where did you get this info btw? So the curator system sends keys not gifts? It says the users get to accept the game on their accounts. I understand the process you explain, I just never heard of anyone doing this.
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Valve should just put a restriction on new group users not being available for offers already having been sent out before they joined and this whole thing would stop. I mean it's nice for the individuals getting the games, but shitty for a curator do to so.
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To add some infos:
Curator Connect copies don't provide profile features (counter, trading cards).
If you have a game on your wishlist and then add it via Curator Connect, wishlist doesn't get updated and you can't even manually remove it from there.
I got some via trades in the beginnings, in case of delisted games it's the only source at times, but I try to avoid those. A game marked as "DEV key" on barter is also always a red signal to me, because it's difficult to estimate the value and you don't know how the trader got it (got multiple just for asking from a naive dev? or did a proper review, maybe even provided valuable feedback, bug hunting, translation and was rewarded with additional keys?).
To avoid abuse: Handpick the curators, check their previous curations, genres, quality of reviews (length, wording, videos), their social media and only provide one copy to the curator.
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Oh! Finally a smart comment!
While almost every system has flaws and bad apples, doesn't mean all are or that this system has no use. Curators and reviewers (I believe that curators should be making full reviews on the games and not only the small curator text) are needed in steam for visibility and many more reasons. But that's a huge topic and, generally, it has more to do about "why is the press useful". Learning to differentiate is a good start. If more people actually read instead of blindly sending, things would be better. Steam could use a few tweaks also.
There are way too many things to consider over this but I stand with you 100% on "To avoid abuse: Handpick the curators, check their previous curations, genres, quality of reviews (length, wording, videos), their social media and only provide one copy to the curator."
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Well, it's the only solution, because Valve doesn't care much about bad apples both on developers and users sides. It's also no excuse for victim blaming, because everyone had been naive at some point and we all learn new things everyday.
And before someone gets too interested, finds you, gt4 or other prominent names in my friendlist and senses a contradiction: I barely play multiplayer, so these are mostly because of trades or common interest (removed games collecting). Do I condone everything anyone does? No, but it doesn't lead automatically to ignore a person completely. It's a grey world outside.
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Curator Connect does provide some profile features, like counter and achievements, but no cards and they update your wishlist
"For beta" dev keys provide all profile features, but they don't update your wishlist at least on your Steam wishlist page, but it can manually adjust.
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You are right, my wording was bad. The wishlist actually gets updated, but the curator connect game stays somehow in your wl app info. Wherever I synchronise (ITAD, GG.deals, barter.vg) it stays as wishlisted. I can manually remove it, but after next sync it's back.
I don't think it happened on SteamDB yet, so they might use something else to sync.
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try to remove them on the actual steam wishlist page. That always works for me. If not, you need augmented steam extension for it. Install it, go to your wishlist page on steam. Open stats (new augmented steam option) then "Hidden apps". You can delete them there. Don't delete those you don't own because wierdly there are some game that doesn't show on your steam wishlist game and you don't own them. Like Cuphead for me. Wierd.
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Thanks! I haven't noticed the stats addition yet. Of course with me being a removed game collector the list was huge (621 entries) and you can't search within, at least it's mostly sorted by appIDs. Copied the content from console to search within. If the appID was there, go to the area of the list and find it by looking at the game pictures. I was able to remove several games from it.
5 games remained, synchronised on barter, they stayed. Removed them manually, synchronised again, 2 gone. The other three are still there (not on Steam's WL page, not in the hidden apps), also using Sync+.
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If they aren't using the Curator Connect system, then those keys aren't subject to the rules. It's not that the devs are using the system wrong, they aren't using it at all in that case.
Game copies (up to 5 per curator) can't be sold or traded like keys, but like others have mentioned, it is quite easy to promote a new group member to officer so that he can claim a copy.
Generating keys is a different system than Curator Connect. If you have any questions about the Curator Connect, I've used it and I can answer them.
There are 2 types of disclosures when making a curation:
I received this product for free
I received compensation to write this review
But I doubt anyone uses them, I don't think these are enforced at all, same as the:
"Check this box if you received this product for free"
That's used for creating Steam reviews.
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Those are things valve should fix it seems and there's easy fixes for both I listed somewhere above but I understand how it can be abused. They gotta change the rules of how often someone can become an admin in the groups.
My question was since video maker originally found his keys on kinguin,and he was able to buy one and trace it back to a key he sent out, those are then keys he issued and send out via e-mail to "curators" who reached out to him and have nothing to do with the curator system, right? So they couldn't have been curator given games. So the system wasn't used right?
As for the reviews steam should automatically add "Received this for free" to any curator given game. The license given in the account should specify curator retail or something and any curator retail key should have that box locked in. That's also an easy fix and again not sure why it's not implemented this way. I just thought it was funny that a dev could buy your vote legitimately according to rule 3 and fake their own reviews. Like I knew others were posting recently somewhere here about some games faking their reviews and what not, and to that I'm thinking, why, steam literally says you can do so, just write in there paid review.
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This is how accepting a game through Curator Connect looks. http://prntscr.com/ZL5kCopDl4QW
So it's a lot different than keys. And it's not about becoming an admin, but an officer/moderator.
I don't think currently Steam differentiates who makes the curations, so it would take a lot of restrictions from Steam to regulate all those changes. What's even funnier is that even if none of the curators own a specific game, they can make a curation about it. Curators can even curate unreleased games.
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"I am curious however if before you used the curator system, did you read up on it? If you did, did you not notice how it could be exploited and did you send multiple keys to the same curator? I would like to know the process you went through if you're willing to explain."
Initially, when I was approached by curators, I hesitated to reply at all. I told some friends about it, and they thought it was exciting. I was already aware of what the curator system is about, but not how it works at a fundamental level. I believe I read up on it through the "about" page on Steam itself, and I remember going through some of the Steam profiles connected to see if there was anything off-putting on the pages themselves, where I was met with a lot of "+rep" comments.
Something I found to be odd from the very beginning was the fact that so many of them would ask for several keys, sometimes up to five at a time. I was never willing to send many, but a couple were often included in my reply. Was this a naive move? Yes, definitely, but at some point I just sort of accepted it as the norm, because it almost seemed too common after a while.
While this may seem like a "Wow, I can't believe someone out there is this stupid" kind of thing, I know I'm not the only one, as many people approached me after the release of my first video, claiming they had basically the exact same experience. I'm not familiar with how this stuff works, and the game they were reselling keys for was the first commercial game I ever published online. Of course the thought of "This seems pretty scummy" crossed my mind, but it wasn't enough to deter me from doing it. The thought of someone with 25k+ followers reviewing my game was very tempting.
"As for this, this is a giveaway site sir, we give what we can afford, can't use or don't want to sell to others, and in return we have the chance to enter giveaways others have made for things other can let go. Trading is forbidden here. Try it if you want see what happens."
Okay, you know what, my bad. This page was sent to me by someone late last night, and I barely looked into it at all. I really only read the posts on this thread specifically, and assumed trading because people seemed to know more about it than I did do. :P
However, I just had an actual look at the site I'm on, and I get the point now. Sorry for getting it mixed up, that was silly. Now, more educated than ever, let me reiterate:
Going through this stuff has been very interesting, and I hope your community continues to prosper. This seems like a lovely place, and I think it's interesting to see the different kinds of ways people interact with Steam as a platform.
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What steps do you take to verify the information you receive from a source?
The journalistic standard I was taught was to confirm it with other sources. Ideally you want the same information from three or more knowledgeable, credentialed, people who have little or no involvement with each other. It protects the journalist from being used as a cat's paw. protects the journalist from libel or slander accusations, and it protects the subject of the investigation's rights.
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If you read the FAQ and the guidelines you will see this isn't a place where bad behavior is tolerated.
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/faq
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/guidelines
Trust me, those are enforced.
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Depends how the insults are delivered, under what context and to what intensity. If someone says "you're wrong and you're a dum dum for misleading others", sure it's insulting, but if they're right it's not that bad. If someone says the b word straight up I'm pretty sure mods will give you a chance to reword that phrasing before a suspension is given, and I'm pretty sure if you go full out " * *** * * ***** **** ***" insulting someone and you're first because you got a tantrum temper, they'll just straight up issue a suspension. IMO it works the right way.
We already discussed autojoining and we remember your data was wrong there and all over the place and you weren't able to provide any proper data other than "trust me bro", and as for multiaccounting it wouldn't do any good because there's probs people who have family on the same ip who'd get caught in the misfire and peeps who multi bot with a dynamic ip who would never get caught. I remember you also mentioning that if a bunch of innocent users got banned to get a few autojoiners you'd be fine with it, and that seemed unhinged to me. What would you say if you got caught in the misfire and you're now perma'd? You'd be happy with it's design as it was working as intended and you're one of the few who got caught up in it despite doing nothing wrong?
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Regarding family: I can't remember when and where it was stated but the rule is: If you have another family member with an own Steam and Steamgifts account, so the same IP, write a ticket to support and explain your situation. Support will take note and save that information if any problems occur in the future.
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We already discussed autojoining and we remember your data was wrong there and all over the place and you weren't able to provide any proper data other than "trust me bro"
Yeah, you start again with your untrue bullshit.
Believe what you want.
To talk, explain, discuss with you is wasted lifetime.
At some point the support will handle tickets and then it is maybe not needed anymore.
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I seen a lot of insults, partly from the same user over 3 days, and i don't speak from "you are dumb" insults, instead from "asshole" etc. ones.
Nothing happen in 95% of the cases, which is a BIG, bad, joke.
And to the autojoiners honeypot, good.
But i believe first that they get punished when your tickets are handled. I assume they aren't.
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Developers in the past have tried to generate keys to sell them on their own websites to get 100% of the money. But what happened was scammers abusing this by buying the keys and issuing chargebacks. That's why when going to bundle sites with your keys, they shoulder the responsibility of these issues with chargebacks but also take a cut. You are basically guaranteed some money for your keys, but you will have no control once the keys are sold to the buyers who can then make a profit. Who also shoulders this responsibility for your games while taking a cut? Steam. So they aren't really that different in the end, except one is first hand, the other is second hand selling. Only you can decide if selling your game for less for promotional purposes is worth it. I can personally tell you that I wouldn't have known about many games unless they came to my attention through bundles.
Then there's the whole other side of developers abusing the generated keys to set up money laundering schemes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keuGmE6g3bo
TL:DW Tax evasion, loopholes with UK companies.
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Fair warning: At this very moment, you are on a website called Steamgifts. This site has nothing - I repeat: nothing - to do with trading. So you calling "us" experienced traders and a trading community is factually completely wrong.
The website Steamtrades is a sister site of the site Steamgifts, yes, but it is a completely different site meant for completely different people. Steamtrades is for trades and Steamgifts is for gifting games. The only connection between these two sites is that they are both registered to the same person. You did do a Whois-Search for the domain, didn't you?
You are confusing two very different things and thus are devaluating your arguments substantially.
Whatever you do from here on out, a fair warning: Whenever you put out content, you deliver information to the public. This information has or at least should be factually true. You get the truth or at least come closer to the truth by taking the time to research things, thoroughly, and fact check with a least two, better three, sources all independent from eachother. Basic rule of anything related to journalism.
If you don't do that and spread misinformation, you are liable for everything that comes after it. On all levels.
Edit: I have watched both videos now and you are assuming too much, so that many things you said and even state as fact in your videos are simply not true.
You stating relying on hearsay and, in most cases, only on one person should have never given you enough confidence to publish your videos. In addition to this, it is obvious that you really are not very well informed regarding the grey market, the curator system, handing out keys, regional pricing, key (re-)selling, trading, region locks and so much more.
Which, per se, is not a problem and the average Steam user also knows nothing about this stuff. But you have put out a video about those subjects, so you should have researched way, wayyy more before putting out your video and stating things as true which are not. As a comparison, I can drive a car. Which doesn't make me knowledgeable enough to produce a YT video about how cars are produced or how an engine works.
If you really want to gain knowledge and insight, you will find many experienced and knowledgeable users here at Steamgifts (SG) that may be willing to chat with you on those matters after you sent them a friend request via Steam.
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"Fair warning: At this very moment, you are on a website called Steamgifts. This site has nothing - I repeat: nothing - to do with trading. So you calling "us" experienced traders and a trading community is factually completely wrong."
" it is a completely different site meant for completely different people."
I'd argue that a fair portion of the site has had some trading experience. But, most importantly, "blind lottery trading" from groups IS a thing. Especially when one of the requirements is monetary difference. Basically, what you give IS what you get. The difference with trading is that you don't know what you are trading for.
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I watched the video and read this comment of yours and there's a few things that you didn't seem to get quite right so allow me to attempt to explain them.
This site, SteamGifts, and its sister site SteamTrades are currently two separate communities that simply happen to be run by the same person and share a lot of users. But they aren't really connected anymore since they got split years ago.
In here we only do giveaways, and participate in this forum obviously, with any sort of trading being forbidden and usually redirected to SteamTrades. You can actually get a suspension for attempting to trade here, and in fact that's exactly what happens when a support member notices any trade going on here.
Second, as a former trader (I quit shortly after I got impersonated by someone that used my name to scam people and kinda soured the whole thing for me) I can tell you that the vast majority of trades aren't done with keys gotten from curators but rather with bundle's leftovers or keys procured from free promotions somewhere else. Said promotions usually being official massive giveaways done by devs/publishers themselves, authorized 3rd party sellers, or sites getting deals with publishers like in the case of AWA. Heck, back in the day when Steam allowed us to buy games directly from the store and keep them in the inventory for gifting them at a later date it was a common practice to buy stuff when it got really cheap in the hopes of trading it later for a profit. You can question the morality of these practices, but they're just run of the mill "buy cheap sell high" practices common to our cursed modern capitalist system, and I personally just used trading as a way to get even more games, not to mention that many times it's just trading games for games, kinda like trading repeated cards you got in a pack for stuff you don't have yet.
And yeah, it's not that rare for people here (me included) to assume that everyone using Steam is at least vaguely aware of all of the stuff going on and that sending keys to so called curators is the same as throwing the keys away since almost no one bothers to write reviews unless you force them or pay them in some way. I once participated in a private group of reviewers and the organizer literally had us under deadlines and had a bunch of requirements that we had to follow while writing the reviews in order to prove that we gave the game a fair chance instead of just letting it run in the background to idle for time. But I don't think those sorts of honest review groups exist anymore since they didn't guarantee a positive review and apparently devs nowadays prefer to just exploit the system themselves by explicitly asking for positive reviews. I've even seen devs I consider to be pretty legit using questionable tactics for gathering wishlists that could get you suspended in this site.
And while Valve takes measures to keep publishers happy they probably won't be too proactive about closing any loophole that can potentially lead them to gaining money or market dominance, they're a for profit business after all.
Ah, welcome to SG by the way! We're old and jaded but generally friendly :P
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I once participated in a private group of reviewers and the organizer literally had us under deadlines and had a bunch of requirements that we had to follow while writing the reviews in order to prove that we gave the game a fair chance instead of just letting it run in the background to idle for time. But I don't think those sorts of honest review groups exist anymore since they didn't guarantee a positive review and apparently devs nowadays prefer to just exploit the system themselves by explicitly asking for positive reviews
I know that Christcenteredgamer enforces playing the game and posting a review to their website if you claim a key that they've been sent. Per their ethics policy, neither they nor individual reviewers can be paid by the dev to review a game.
(They review games both from a "how well does the game work" as well as a completely separate content review score for parents/those who care about things like swearing/nudity/violence/[lack of] ethics)
But yeah, most reviews sites and groups need to be taken with a pinch of salt. [Redacted] or [Redacted] goes "this is a great game!" and I play the game and wonder "Did we even play the same game?"
I also highly doubt that most devs tremendously care about the keys they send to curators. Some do, ofc, but probably not most.
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Yeah, writing reviews for a group can be actual work, which is partly why I wasn't all that bummed when the group went dormant.
Now that I think about it I've done some things that probably wouldn't be considered the standard steam user experience. I wrote a few reviews for a private, and kinda secretive, group run by a contact that randomly invited me one day. I translated store blurbs for an indie dev asking for volunteers. I accumulated so many games from so many sources that I sometimes struggle to remember that I own some stuff much less where I got it from. I traded bundle leftovers for literal years as a hobby, like I legit did it for fun after a while. I made four three alt accounts that I only use for farming cards. And I've actively participated in a giveaway community for over a decade now.
No wonder stuff that I consider common knowledge would look like a bunch of weird and suspicious community dynamics to some random dev that has only interacted with surface level steam. It's like randomly stumbling upon an underground civilization that you never heard about and they treat you like you're clueless because you don't immediately start speaking their highly specific jargon.
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Wow, that's a lot of--and rather varied--activities. As you said, the average user--let alone dev--would have no clue, probably, about most of those dynamics. Yet some here on SG would find nothing odd about any of that.
I do like your analogy--it is rather apt. Hopefully this giveaway community treats devs nicely even when they don't speak our jargon!
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You did touch several valid points and you are right that there are issues and Steam striked against some abusers in the past.
But that one big flaw in your video is how you put some specific people/names on your list of shame. And all you have to show for is that "they are everywhere", traded in large quantities etc.
None of that proves that they trade with 'stolen' goods. And especially not that they do so knowingly and willingly.
So putting specific names out there with so little background gains you pretty much nothing. And defamation is a pretty good reason to sue.
We could even witness in this thread how one clown used names being shown in your video as some kind of proof for their own personal vendetta.
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Concerning this gt4 guy your argumentation is fundamentally flawed as he can't trade games that are tied to his account. As a developer on Steam you should know this. The only viable method of transfer would be to sell the account itself. I'd argue he's got his games through his trading activities mainly.
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The vast majority of trading are bundle keys which someone already owns (from a previous bundle) or isn't interested in. This has more to do with the same games being bundled multiple times. Then there are "mystery" bundle or similar things like IndieGala's Feudal Life which rewards random keys (which are usually many times rebundled games).
Now, is there a subset of traders who commit credit card fraud? Buy games, trade them or sell them on reseller sites? Sure. Its especially a problem for newly released, high priced games. So buying such games should be done with caution lest your key get revoked and the seller never be seen again.
And curation...are there curators that sell their keys rather than distributing them? I'm sure that happens too. But let's not pretend all curators are scammers even if some dislike the arguably unfair edge in account level these individuals get from distributing their gifts through SteamGifts. Also, don't discount the possibility, that some of these keys aren't sold by the curators...but by those who win these giveaways in violation of SteamGift rules.
I think its short-sighted to act as if trading is the problem or curators are the problem, when its just the minority of individuals who are gaming these systems.
Its like trying to blame banks for the existence of bank robbers. While true no one would be scamming curators keys without the curators system...I find it very likely these individuals would be robbing something(someone) else without banks.
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I'd think they'd reasonably expect the games to be played and reviewed. Not understanding how dishonest a lot of curators are isn't really a knock on the developer(s). It's a knock on the dishonest curators.
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I think naivete is likely prevalent amongst newer devs as far as this topic goes. Steam promotes the curator program as a great way to get exposure for your game(s). I'm sure the last thought on some devs minds is that the systems Steam has in place are filled with scammers and thieves. Sadly, devs do end up learning the dark truth at some point or another.
I don't think we should blame the victim though. It's still the shady curators that need to be held responsible for their shady behavior.
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For all it's faults, curator system does fix problem of being able to resell keys if used as intended.
Intended use:
Use curator system to copies of games games to creators you want to.
Actual use:
Developers end up using "steam curator" as vetting system (which it is not), and sending keys directly (which you're not supposed to do).
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There is a Discord exploit that allows a curator to transfer an unclaimed curator license to another account.
And there is the old fashioned "make a person a mod temporarily" thing as well.
But you are correct that devs often do send actual keys, whether by the request of the curator or just of their own accord.
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Can I ask for more information for this Discord exploit? I haven't heard of it yet.
And another popular system I've seen being used is Keymailer.
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I don know how curators enable it, but they can set up access to their curator connect without adding you as a mod. You can select the licenses and accept them via their discord. I had someone offer a trade with me a few years ago, and this was what they ended up showing me. I turned down the trade and told said person that I'd be reporting them (which I did) and said a few other things they didn't appreciate lol.
I'll let you know who it was, on Steam when I get back. I'm actually curious if they're still operating their curator.
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To me this sounds a lot more likely to have been a phishing scam. Even if some code would work to execute that function, it would be more likely to be executed on a browser where a Steam user is logged in than on discord.
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It's ideal to vet curators. It's advice I actually have posted on my own curator.
But...I don't think it's on these devs. They have no real reason to expect the curator program to be an unsafe venue for promoting their game. They end up learning this, but going in, there's no reason for them to think Valve is offering them something that Valve doesn't actually police. I place the blame squarely on the scammers, and on Valve for not having proper checks and balances.
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I'm actually very surprised (maybe impressed) the amount of energy this guy spent just to refuse to shove in some business dynamics that is well known by any average adult. How exactly he thought Valve would care about something that isn't really their problem? How exactly he thought Valve (Kinguin, Barter or whatever else) would manage these "third party" contracts between Developers and Curator (or whoever else)? Where he brought this premise that Valve would compel Curators to play and make reviews to Developers? He might spotted a whole scheme and all, but, until now, this video only shows someone who would like to outsource the responsability of his own acts.
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There are a lot of interesting takes already. I won't go over how SteamGifts and SteamTrades are separate communities with entirely different goals, as this has been accurately covered by other commenters.
The curator system (e.g. Curator Connect) is made specifically to prevent the abuses described in the videos. By sending keys by email, a developer is choosing to bypass the safety net of the Steam curator system. By sending more than one key to a curator, developers are (partially) incentivizing the sale of those keys. It is true that grey market sites help sell Steam keys obtained by curators. But they also help sell bundle leftovers. I have accumulated thousands of bundle leftovers over the years. I never used a grey market site to sell them, and I don't intend to, but I can understand why some people would want to recoup part of their expense that way.
Don't get me wrong. I don't like resellers who do this for a living. I think they add absolutely no value to the market and are just profiting off uninformed or misinformed people. And most of them will not hesitate to act in unethical or immoral ways in order to boost their profits.
Still, the main problem is that curators receive keys by email and are thereafter able to sell them on grey market sites. A big rework of the curator system would certainly help, but I think, for now, that limiting curators to a single key of each game, and using the Steam Curator Connect system would go a long way to prevent this kind of abuse.
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What's the difference in selling them vs asking 3-4 bundles tradables or 50tf2? Something that you and others do?
At least on many occassions the resellers are offering them unbundled games instead of bundled like you.
We live in a free market world. You aren't forced to buy or trade. If the market doesn't buy at a price then that price falls down and vice versa. People should be educating themselves and ask advice when they don't know something. Like with EVERY aspect in life. Unless you need someone to guide your life 100% whether you like it or not because it's "for your own good". And you wouldn't be able to differentiate this either.
I don't see you and many talking like you, trading their leftovers at the value they were purchased. Why are you any different? Instead of "selling" games (that you bought for for example 1-2$) and gaining 10$ to buy 1 more bundle, you don't spend 10$ and you "trade" your leftovers (that you bought for for example 1-2$) for that 1 bundle. One way or the other, you gave the same games and got the same bundle.
Next time, don't even buy the bundles. Go buy the games directly from steam and e-mail the devs that they are selling their game too low and in a few days/weeks/months people will be trading/selling it to "profit" (be it trades, sales, giveaway level, advertisment) while they took their asking money when that bundle got sold.
Key resellers are no different than any reseller of any merchandise/product on the planet.
Oh and btw, the problem isn't even the keys vs curator copies. It's that nobody checks. You are blaming a tool for its master's handiwork,
PS: See and my comment for "blind lottery trading" above
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I trade at grey market prices because I don't want to have to spend extra money to cover for a bad key. Once I agree to a trade, I have to hold my end of the bargain. If I trade a key that's been revoked or is a duplicate, which happens on a semi-regular basis, I need to be able to quickly get a working key in order to fulfill my promise. Mind you, I never retrade keys so these are original straight-from-bundle keys that end up not working.
I think you overestimate how much one can get for bundled games. Most games I trade are sold $0.40-$0.80 on grey market sites so I get a few thousand gems for them. I don't think I've ever bought a bundle for which I sold the leftover game or games and I would have been able to buy another bundle with the money. That is, if I was able to get the money out of my Steam account, which would be against Steam's TOS. I would love to be able to do what you suggest and get $2-$3 (e.g. the price I paid) for leftover keys. It feels too unethical to ask more than what I need to cover the cost of a replacement key. Also, I have tried bundle splitting a few times, but it came out much more expensive then just buying the bundle and trading away the leftover keys.
I don't understand your point about education and market forces. Could you elaborate? The same goes with emailing devs: I am not sure which point you are trying to make.
By the way, I frequently email or contact devs on Discord to let them know people are reselling their keys. The vast majority of them do not care, at all. Fortunately, they all took action the few times that I pointed out when someone was abusing the Curator Connect system.
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Now this would had been "fine" IF your recent (and not only) trades weren't what they are.. Full of 30tf2 offers, unbundled games like Stray for stuff that costed a fraction of it and so on..
Education and market forces: If resellers weren't of use and everyone was unfair then simply they would had "closed shop" because nobody would find anything of value for them to trade for.
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I agree I was ripped off on that Stray deal, but I really wanted to play the game and I had found someone willing to trade it for games instead of something easily fungible. I would probably trade it differently today, especially now that I'm focusing on buying games directly from the Steam Store.
I think resellers are useless and add no value to the games they are reselling. If the market was wide enough that everyone who wanted to trade a game could connect with every potential buyer, there would be no need for resellers. Unfortunately, that's not the case and so there are resellers ripping off gullible or unwary traders.
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For starters, stop derailing.
Secondly, you traded with resellers.
Thirdly, you gave cents for those games and now you are getting tens of dollars for them back in games. You don't trade them for cents. Yes, 1 game from an older bundle got you in value at the time you traded it of MORE than 1 full bundle.
Resellers is a broader term than just keyshops.
I won't go be making "analysis" on your trades and trading comments. It's not remotely close to what we are discussing. But I would appreciate if you stop trying to deflect. What you say and what you and say after doing it are beyond contadictory.. I won't keep this up. If there is anything you have to add to the subject and it isn't a trading discussion (which can be done elsewhere), I'm all ears
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1) The original discussion was about curators and the Curator Connect system. You are the one who replied to my comment by changing the subject. I have only tried to reply to your points one by one. Except where I couldn't understand them and asked you to elaborate, which you did not.
2) I never said I never traded with resellers. I said I don't like resellers who do this for a living. I had to buy keys from keyshops in order to fulfill my end of the deal, once I agreed on something and my key turned out to be a duplicate / revoked key. What's your point?
3) Yes, I did sell an older game for more than it originally cost me. I don't deny that. It's not the case for the vast majority of the games I have traded or am looking to trade. I was never able to trade my leftovers at the time the bundle was bought for enough to buy another bundle. Which means the market works, in a way. If some people were able to profit by simply buying more bundles and selling them off, eventually more people would do exactly that and prices would come down, therefore preventing that scheme from working. If you're saying that I should trade away all of my games for exactly the price I have paid them and not a cent more and let others profit from me, I suppose it's a point of view. It's not my point of view and it's not something I would encourage. But why not come out and just plainly state it?
4) Curator Connect works. It really helps to prevent the kind of abuses this thread was about. It really helps prevent the resale of games that curators get for free. It's the way the system is supposed to be used. Not using that system is opening the door to misuse and abuse.
5) I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with your messages. Are you trying to educate me? Berate me? Please clarify and elaborate. Thanks.
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1) You mentioned keys and sales
2) I don't understand the point of your second remark
3) If that's not your point of you then what is?.. Because that's you keep blaming resellers for. Profit. Your trades and wl are intesting BUT due to the calling out rule I won't keep at it here. I can show you that what you say isn't true BUT I'll need your permission to do so to avoid calling you out. You can drop the issue here, nobody is forcing you to respond
4) Yes and no. No in the sense that review keys have a purpose. Yes to the systems should be used correctly. Not even the curator system is being used as it should. But I'm not a youtuber so I can't say more (now) - calling out issues
5) I'm discussing with you. And I'm saying that what happens is no different than what you blame resellers for. You see cents, I see many tf2
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Thank you, it's a lot clearer now! It is (now) my understanding that you are saying that by trading my bundle leftover games and not losing money doing so, I am, in essence, a reseller. Is that it? If that's the case, I think you are shirking two important pieces of information: context and intention.
I never buy a bundle with the intention of reselling the keys. I buy a bundle to play or farm its games. I cannot play (or farm, for that matter) all games that I buy. So I trade my leftovers. Which is what, in my experience, the vast majority of traders is doing. Not looking out to make a profit, certainly not out to rip off other traders.
Resellers, on the other end, will obtain keys for the sole purpose of selling them for profit. To that intent, they develop strategies to maximize their profit. This can be by obtaining keys at lower cost such as being a fake curator or trading with newbies and ripping them off. Or it can be by selling keys at a high price, again often when trading with newbies or on such platforms as Discord servers. Here the keyshops act as a force for lowering prices, since it's easy to find others (re)selling the same key.
Moreover, resellers often buy high-value keys from inexperienced people and then resell them to knowledgeable buyers. If person A has a key for a game that reseller Z buys and then resells to buyer B at 10 times the price, no value was added to transaction. If person A could have contacted buyer B directly, the end result would have been exactly the same, there would have been no useless middleman, and everyone would have left happy. When I trade, I am never reseller Z, I am always person A.
If you think that anyone, regardless of intention or circumstance, that is making one cent of profit on a trade is a reseller and therefore somehow is evil and / or a bad influence on Steam Trades, then I think it's an indefensible position. The vast, vast majority of trades are not equal in value, because of the intrinsic nature of game keys. After all, the right price for something is what someone else is willing to pay for it. However, that someone else must be able to clearly ascertain the value of what they're looking for (or what they're selling / trading), as well as the various offers for it, in order to determine how much they would be willing to "pay". Would you agree with this?
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No, you just sit on them until they get delisted.
I don't agree with the Bartee metric if that's what you mean.
I won't keep doing this.. Whatever makes you sleep at night.. I can't show examples so I'm ending it here as it's a useless debate. Especially, since it adds nothing to the main point
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I sit on them, by putting them up for trade in trade listings and on barter.vg? Anyway, I understand if you don't want to discuss anything because you find it fruitless. I must say, I find it a bit rude that you refuse to answer my questions because they don't align with your goal. Still, to each their own. And as Tom Scott once said: "Everyone places the bar right below what they themselves are doing".
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I can't answer them because I can't post links. Neither you allowed it (I'm not even sure if that's allowed)
If I could, it would had been a lot different (+this is becoming spam at this point, nobody cares, but if you do, there are and other places to talk)
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Are you saying that by trading my bundle leftover games and not losing money doing so, I am, in essence, a reseller. Is that it?
Why would you need to post a link in order to tell me what you think? Or how you view the use of resellers in the key market as a whole?
I agree though that the point of the discussion seems to change with every message. I thought it was that you're saying that anyone not losing money on a trade is a reseller and part of the problem. But you don't seem ready to commit to a point of view.
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If you can't even understand that, then that's your problem. I have wasted enough time with you and your "evasions". But no matter. Keep trying!
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lol I don't see your inability to explain your point of view in a consistent and clear manner as my problem. And I have answered every point you've made, when I was able to understand them. But, as you say, no matter, I get the fact that you would rather keep your inner moral ground and not confront it to reality and grow as a person by reexamining and challenging your morals and values. Changing is hard, after all.
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My ability is fine. I'm just not allowed to call you out :) And you don't allow me do to it as well since I can't give specific examples.. You conveniently skipped my permission request and went to my "abilities".
This is my last message to you about it though. You can beat around the bush all you want.. The snake won't magically disappear just because you aren't hitting it on purpose :)
You can try to spin it all you want but, you know that without being able explain your trades, I can't speak for air.. You'll just keep saying yadda yadda yadda. So.. So long! Bye-bye
Gool luck with your "fair" trades.. Dust those keys for me ^^
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Why do you need my permission to give me specific examples? Anyway, you have my permission, if you allow me to give you counter-examples and give them the same weight in your judgment. Also, do not divulge personal information outside the purview of the SteamTrades or SteamGifts websites (e.g. my physical address, etc.)
I've noticed in other threads as well as in this one that you have a tendency to skip questions while moving the goalpost during your discussions. Please stop doing that here otherwise it will not be possible to have a fruitful dialog.
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you have better luck talking to a wall than talking with certain people in here
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this is the first correct thing you wrote.....but for who?? ^^
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1) "Don't get me wrong. I don't like resellers who do this for a living. I think they add absolutely no value to the market and are just profiting off uninformed or misinformed people. And most of them will not hesitate to act in unethical or immoral ways in order to boost their profits." https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/KzGhqoT
2) "I think you overestimate how much one can get for bundled games. Most games I trade are sold $0.40-$0.80 on grey market sites so I get a few thousand gems for them. I don't think I've ever bought a bundle for which I sold the leftover game or games and I would have been able to buy another bundle with the money. That is, if I was able to get the money out of my Steam account, which would be against Steam's TOS. I would love to be able to do what you suggest and get $2-$3 (e.g. the price I paid) for leftover keys. It feels too unethical to ask more than what I need to cover the cost of a replacement key. Also, I have tried bundle splitting a few times, but it came out much more expensive then just buying the bundle and trading away the leftover keys." https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/HUnoyJp
3) "I sit on them, by putting them up for trade in trade listings and on barter.vg? " https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/BClbmfh
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/5995189/ 40tf2
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4994557/ Stray
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4818204/ 352 trading cards
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4542844/ 8tf2
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4524069/ 30tf2
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4532594/ 30tf2
https://barter.vg/u/81f/o/4532133/ 32tf2
Those are your most recent trades on barter.
"Also, do not divulge personal information outside the purview of the SteamTrades or SteamGifts websites (e.g. my physical address, etc.)" https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/zZ9hObw
No, nothing personal in this regard. I'm merely posting your trades like you allowed me to do. Absolutely no other info about you as a person (nobody cares for it, including me, as that has nothing to do with the discussion).
Now, let me ask you again, "What's the difference in selling them vs asking 3-4 bundles tradables or 50tf2? Something that you and others do?" https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/GSSQGdM
"It is (now) my understanding that you are saying that by trading my bundle leftover games and not losing money doing so, I am, in essence, a reseller. Is that it? If that's the case, I think you are shirking two important pieces of information: context and intention.
I never buy a bundle with the intention of reselling the keys. I buy a bundle to play or farm its games. I cannot play (or farm, for that matter) all games that I buy. So I trade my leftovers. Which is what, in my experience, the vast majority of traders is doing. Not looking out to make a profit, certainly not out to rip off other traders.
Resellers, on the other end, will obtain keys for the sole purpose of selling them for profit. To that intent, they develop strategies to maximize their profit. This can be by obtaining keys at lower cost such as being a fake curator or trading with newbies and ripping them off. Or it can be by selling keys at a high price, again often when trading with newbies or on such platforms as Discord servers. Here the keyshops act as a force for lowering prices, since it's easy to find others (re)selling the same key." https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/BBVUlSe
So.. let me reply for a sec. Those trades I linked above are 0,40$ profit?.. And not 40 tf2? Somehow 1tf2=0,01$?.......
You keep saying about the games you list. It doesn't matter what you list. You can list the entire steam.. What you trade is what matters. And the vast majority are banned/delisted games that for whatever reason have value. Aka you let your keys gather dust for years until they become valuable. Hence your trades. I won't go to the "are they fair" route as for the time being it's irrelevant. For THIS convo what matters is that those are only some examples of all your trades. It's not random that your wl is so small and difficult. Either someone will make a buy on demand for you or will be a reseller. Which is ironic considering how you find them useless. But isn't buy on demand a form of a resell too?
Unless your issue is the word sell vs trade. In which case, I should say that both profit. One gains money to buy X stuff, the other saves money from buying X stuff. Both originally paid Y game to either sell or trade. So in essense, you have no reason to keep demonizing them to that extent.
And no, I'm not a reseller. But it baffles me how you blame them for everything and think of them useless. Everyone has a use..
You threw everyone on the same bag and then to the river.. Doing exactly what you preach to me here: "I think you are shirking two important pieces of information: context and intention." and "regardless of intention or circumstance" https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/BBVUlSe
But you were right about 1 thing.. Indeed your profit isn't 1 game from a bundle for the price of another bundle. With so many tf2, it's a lot more.
Edit: This was left "open" because I couldn't post the examples above. For the rest of the post, we agree on some stuff, notably that the curator system is safer than using keys. And that above everything, what matters the most, is checking out WHO the other one is. Including weird numbers (10K+ followers) in 1-2 months groups with 30-40 reviews (that are also usually crap).. Nothing other than "paying" for followers usually through giveaway tasks
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Oh wow, that is a lot of text. So the crux of your argument is that I do the same thing as a reseller, right? Now, if your definition of resell follows the Meriam-Webster's definition, meaning just to "sell again" then all traders are resellers, unless they are specifically trading keys received for free. After all, in order to trade a key, you (usually) have to buy it. So if your point is that I am a trader, then yes, I agree.
Otherwise, in this context, a reseller must be someone who buys not from a store and then trades / sells, but rather someone who buys from another trader (or original buyer). A reseller seeks to either obtain their keys at a much lower price than their actual value or trade / sell them for a much higher price than their actual value. They need to beat the market value in a way or another, otherwise they don't profit. I don't do that. And none of the links you added as proof seem to provide evidence for this idea. Let's examine them one by one:
Now let's look at my true last trades. These are my official trade threads. I'll skip the one of super-cheap games for 1k gems, as I only trade freebies and obviously resellers will never buy free games and then redeem them to their library. Looking at the last messages, I offered to trade:
And it goes on and on. I'm sure that if you go back in time, you could find trades where the values are now unequal. And maybe even some where the values were unequal at the time of trading. While I strive to give fair value when trading, I'm sure I have made some mistakes. Oh, and you'll note that I'm offering all my surplus keys right away. I don't see how you could define that as "sitting on them".
So as you can see, I mostly trade at market value or below. But why would I trade at market value if I could, say, trade my games for $0.01? Several reasons. The first one is that it doesn't make economic sense to lose value on a trade while others do not. The second is to prevent resell. The third and most important one is that I might need to buy a grey market key in a hurry if my key doesn't work. So by trading at market value, I minimize my losses.
Education and market forces: If resellers weren't of use and everyone was unfair then simply they would had "closed shop" because nobody would find anything of value for them to trade for.
You and I have opposite conclusions regarding. I think that if people were more educated and communication between trading parties was easier, no one would need resellers. Every seller could find a buyer and every buyer could find a seller. Resellers have to extract value either from the buyer or the seller, otherwise their business makes no sense.
So, in essence, to answer your question here:
What's the difference in selling them vs asking 3-4 bundles tradables or 50tf2? Something that you and others do?
The differences are:
Does that answer your question?
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Regarding the last part about the differences:
You don't actively seek.. Hmmm.. That's subjective but I will say that sitting on them UNTIL they become "accidentally" valuable isn't different. Just slightly more difficult for many to see
Not all resellers do ot all the time or for a living.
They will offer a replacement or a refund as well.
Regarding the huge answer about values and other examples:
I won't get into that discussion for 2 reasons:
1) I don't even agree that trades should be based on ggdeals alone and
2) They don't matter. You have on many occasions done exactly what you say you haven't. Aka give something extremely higher than its purchased price and have gotten from 1 game from a bundle its value as atleast another full bundle and then some.
What I'm saying isn't that all traders are resellers as in selling in keyshops and outside of them BUT for the reasons you are trashing them, trading is the same. The only difference is that them usually only deal with money or tradables they will sell and you save money through tf2, gems, unbundled games and so on. (And I'm saying this with a grain of salt as I haven't checked, nor I care to do so, what you do with them afterwards)
That's the bit that bugs me. And I'm not discussing about fairness etc. My reasoning is simple and it has to do about what you said for profit from games obtained at a much lower price.
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I am glad you agree that it does not matter
I agree that with a basic definition, not all resellers do it for a living. As with people buying concert tickets and then something comes up, they can't attend the event and they resell their tickets. These things happen. And those people are not part of my definition of resellers. I have nothing against the few people doing that. Especially when they resell using market value.
My assumption with the word reseller, which I've used in my original post, is someone doing this professionally, sucking out value from buyers or sellers in order to make a living. If the market worked with less friction, those buyers and sellers would connect directly, removing the value extraction and therefore rendering resellers moot. That is my complain. I am not complaining that people resell keys. I am not complaining that people trade keys. I am complaining that some people use the market imperfections to rip off buyers or sellers while adding absolutely no value to the system, compared to a system where buyers and sellers would interact directly together.
I agree that using gg.deals or allkeyshops in not an ideal value determination system. However, we have nothing else. There is no single-index globally accepted way to determine the value of a game key for Steam outside of grey markets, because there is no way to instantly get a key for a given game (that is no longer available on Steam) outside of grey markets. I hope that you agree that using Steam price for bundled games would be an even worse idea.
Of course I have traded some games for more than I bought them. No one can dispute that, and I'm not trying to. I did that because the circumstances surrounding the value determination of those games changed. Not because I made it my mission to extract more value than the market allowed me. But because by not following the market value, I would open myself to liability and abuse.
Again, I am not thrashing resellers because they sell / trade keys or because they do it for money. I am thrashing them because they do it while ripping off buyers or sellers in a consistent, continuous, accepted fashion. They are consciously trying to get people to agree to a deal worse than what they could get compared to what they would get if they could contact a buyer or seller directly. I am not thrashing the (eventual) resellers that would simply buy a key at market value and resell it at market value.
Oh, I think I've figured it out. It's this quote that's the source of the confusion, right?
I don't think I've ever bought a bundle for which I sold the leftover game or games and I would have been able to buy another bundle with the money.
I meant "I don't think I've ever bought a bundle for which I sold the leftover game or games right after buying the bundle and I would have been able to buy another bundle with the money." Not that I've ever bought a game at market value and later sold it at market value while it was worth much more. I assumed you would understand that because a single look at my trade history would contradict the second meaning of that sentence. Are you debating the fact that I was lucky and got more for games than what I originally paid for them? Because I'm not. And I'm not complaining about people doing this either. I'm complaining about people acting as useless middlemen and extracting all the value increase instead of it going back to the original buyer.
Let's use a simple analogy. Someone buys an apartment building of 10 units for $100k with each unit being valued at $10k. Years later, the value of the building has grown tremendously and each unit is now valued at $20k. Because the market is distorted, the original buyer is unaware of this. In comes a reseller, a middleman, who proposes $10.5k to the original buyer for a given unit. The buyer, not knowing they're being ripped off, agrees. The reseller then turns around and sells the unit for $20k. They do absolutely nothing else. The value of the unit did not increase at all between the two trades. What happened is that the middleman extracted the value increase that occurred over the years. THIS is what I'm criticizing. This is what I disagree with. Do you understand what I mean? Do you understand the difference with a version of this analogy where the original buyer would have sold the unit for $20k themselves?
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That's indeed different than your original post.
This goes to a specific type of resellers that will do pretty much everything to gain something (notably by "taking advantage" of another person's ignorance).
While I don't like it, it doesn't absolve the other party from not informing himself or researching.
Another side of this is also that many times we are unaware of foreign markets. Something that has 0 value here can have 100 value elsewhere. But forget that. It matters very little for this.
If they didn't think it was good enough, they wouldn't had accepted it. AFTER learning better, they see they could had potentially gained more and then get salty. This wouldn't had happened if they took the time to research a bit before acting on unknown waters.
Where I'm getting at? It's everyone and no one's fault at the same time.
Unlike someone causing harm, which is something one immediately knows is bad for them, this is much different. The don't lose more than they gave (they wouldn't had accepted). They lose profit they could potentially had gained.
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While I don't like it, it doesn't absolve the other party from not informing himself or researching.
I disagree. That is blame dilution and blame shifting. It's going dangerously close to victim blaming.
A part of it is because one could always do more research and spend more time looking into things. And one should not be blamed to not know things one did not even know existed. So where to draw the line between what is reasonable and unreasonable will vary between people. The safest bet is to give all available information to all parties involved.
I agree that value is relative, though. Something that is highly personal might be worth a lot more to a specific person than it would otherwise be for other people. However, tradables are (in the vast majority of cases) not personal items. And in any case, someone trading Steam game keys and ripping off other people for a living cannot trade exclusively in personal items.
All this to say: when something wrong is done, it is the fault of the person doing it. There can be mitigating circumstances around it, there can be valid reasons for it. Hell, society as a whole might think the victim somehow deserved it. But it doesn't change the fact that the action is still morally reprehensible. And that the person that committed it was in the wrong.
The line between someone being a reseller (as described above) and a scammer is a very, very thin one. I don't see how anyone could condone scamming or fraud. I don't think we should condone the kind of reselling that adds no value to society.
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I disagree. That is blame dilution and blame shifting. It's going dangerously close to victim blaming.
All this to say: when something wrong is done, it is the fault of the person doing it. There can be mitigating circumstances around it, there can be valid reasons for it. Hell, society as a whole might think the victim somehow deserved it. But it doesn't change the fact that the action is still morally reprehensible. And that the person that committed it was in the wrong.
Trading and commerce isn't a social issue. There is no victim unless theft happens. And nothing can be set in stone either. To give to you a simple example: when you go to buy something from a mini-market, are you aware of every possible store and seller that ever sold and sells product X? The store owner knows?
Say all stores sell product X for 10$.
What if product X is made by the store owner's best friend and he pays no fees? Wouldn't be, for him, cheaper to obtain it so selling at 10$ like all other stores make him a bad guy because he didn't disclose that info? What if he bought product X from another country for 5$ on mass while all that got it here obtained it for 8?
Important question: If you thought yes to the questions above, what happens to 90% if the 10% of the markets sell it instead of 10 for say 6?.. 90% won't survive. But then you are left with a 10% that will start going up in price since there is no competition. If you put a veto in that and say "stop, no more", you shouldn't be profiting at all eventually will close everyone. "But why are you exaggerating?"
I'm not. It's basic economics and theories. That's why a free market is preferred and there are limits in which one seller can sustain himself in it.
Let's say X product is on display and says 100 instead of 10 either by accident or on purpose. Next door is also a mini market that has it on display for 10 and 5 more across the street. The clerk at the check out is new/tired/doesn't care enough. If you do and buy that item that has an incorrect price, it's the clerks fault or yours?
Basically, you are counting on intent to deceive. But you can never be certain of intent even if someone says it. They can be lying to themselves even to not appear "stupid".
TLDR;
Trading and commerce isn't a social issue. There is no victim unless theft happens
There are countless factors to take into account when bartering a price - including if it's fair for someone to disclose their sources (you'll just cut them out, basic reason any middle man won't speak up.. imagine in housing what would had happened.. or the stock market).
I don't see how anyone could condone scamming or fraud. I don't think we should condone the kind of reselling that adds no value to society.
I don't condone scam or fraud. But that's neither a scam or a fraud.. And you can't even show 1 example of this.. Saying someone was ignorant and said yes to a trade doesn't mean much. We should be having interviews and questionnaires for every transaction in our lives? I don't see how you can be sure differently that all parties are aware of all factors (IF they ever agree on what they should be basing their pricing on). I also don't see how you can prove intent. And even if someone is constantly trying to find product #1 to resell it at x2 the price, how are you sure sure all were "scammed"?.. Why it's even a bad thing? And so on and so on..
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If you didn't already know this, I recommend this YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSx3ez70Rlg
"The Truth about Steam Curators", as told by one such curator.
He goes in-depth and explains just how fake and manipulated it all is. Not even hiding it, he openly shows his multiple curator groups and his own asset-flip published game, which was used in giveaways and promotions to boost his groups numbers.
Quite literally, the whole curator system is broken beyond any hope. It's an unspoken open secret.
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I'll definitely check it out. I'm always interested in stuff like this. Thanks.
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"Quite literally, the whole curator system is broken beyond any hope. It's an unspoken open secret."
You are too ominous. I don't agree with that at all (nor with the video commentary of "trust no curator"). Like others said, CHECKING the quality and credibility of the curator makes a world of difference. And same goes for the devs.. Like everywhere in life, there are "good" and "bad" apples.
And yes, just like with everything press related, they do have their use. Although that is a huge conversation that I'm kinda bored to do. Some changes would be very welcomed! This doesn't mean the whole idea of press must be canned. Like all tools, it's HOW you are using it and WHO is using it. The tool on its own does nothing.
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Just browse the list of recommended curators: https://store.steampowered.com/curators/recommendedcurators/
You'll find this guy in the the top 5, among many many other similar abusers... So yes my comment about the whole system stands.
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3-4 years ago i received offer from similar group - 1k+ games to my library, price was like a used car
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It's a YT video.
Link: https://youtu.be/iqwm3S-pz5Q?si=A3K_x5toxqZRn8mb
Quite informative and definitely worth watching. The content won't be a revelation to most people here, but it's still worth watching.
And as always, keep it civil if you decide to comment. Cheers!
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