women in special operations?
I don't care. If possible, then I would even try to avoid military but heh, I still have to spend my 11 months there :/
Comment has been collapsed.
Obligatory 1 year military training? I had no idea Estonia has this kind of thing.
Comment has been collapsed.
why not?
I don't really care about it.
though if you want:
I'm not very well informed on it, nor do I have a lot of knowledge about the US spec ops. Generally speaking I'd say no matter who it is, as long as one does its job as required, then I won't argue against it being a male, female or martian.
Comment has been collapsed.
I am neutral though. It's called the "I don't give a fuck" option ;)
Comment has been collapsed.
no political threads. learned that the hard way after khazad's thread celebrating gay marriage approval :/
I have no opinion of this matter
Comment has been collapsed.
Comment has been collapsed.
There is a reason why the military never let women join. If you knew why, you would think differently.
Comment has been collapsed.
- Women weren't allowed to vote in most (if not all) countries in the past
- Women are in the military in many countries
- Women are in combat roles in some countries
Many/most/some... you get where this is going.
Comment has been collapsed.
So enlighten us why women can't join the army in this day and age.
Do keep in mind that there are many armies that do let women join and be an active part of the armed forces.
Comment has been collapsed.
If you know.... Why not enlighten us? Since the physical differences have been proven not to be a real issue.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think i know what you refer, but that is not a women problem, it's a men problem.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yep, I think I know what issue you're referring to as well. Can't keep avoiding the problem, as that won't fix anything. Men should have enough discipline to handle themselves, esp if they're in the military.
Comment has been collapsed.
I thought only in Islamic states were the Sharia rules and in India that women/girls have no rights/very limited rights and are treated worse than dogs or cattle? Don't say that in the land of the free and the home of the brave there are those thinking that very same way?
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually, many Muslims countries like Pakistan (where I come from) do allow women to join the army, air force and navy.
Comment has been collapsed.
Oh... I think I see what you're getting at as well. But I agree with Zareh, avoiding the problem won't help fix it.
Comment has been collapsed.
Because the army was run by a bunch of chauvinist men who couldn't see beyond their caveman mindset?
Comment has been collapsed.
There is a valid reason, it's not a "Men" problem, it's a physiological problem with human beings. Men have innate instincts to protect women, you can call it sexist, but when we didn't have guns and society to keep everyone safe, and they were pregnant, it was damn important.
It's not fair, but it's been a problem in every military that has men and women serving together. The best solutions is generally to have full women and full men units, but there aren't always enough. There is consistent data that many men are perfectly comfortable having women with them in combat, but their instinct is over powering in a life or death situation many times, and it affects the efficiency of the entire unit.
If they can pass the exam, they should be allowed in though, just care should be taken with implementation, and it should be taken very seriously, with a scientific way of thinking, rather than political.
Comment has been collapsed.
This is a very interesting aspect I wasn't aware of. Thanks for sharing!
Comment has been collapsed.
its not only about test and training - before you join you are going through evaluation and and interview to judge where you are most suitable to go to...
even if a woman (or a man for this point) want to go to special forces, she may not get it for a simple fact - there are limited by the amount they can train (money) - so they will go for the people with the best chance to pass.
training a soldier, especially for special forces cost a lot of money: and to compare:
Infantry in the UK Phase 1 & 2 cost 34000 Euro minimum per soldier
(https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/397258/Army_Training_Costs_Per_Recruit.pdf)
in the US a marine cost is about 45000$ minimum per soldier and that includes recruiting, advertising, college fund and enlistment bonuses, uniform, gear, laundry and chow,classroom learning,Pay, allowance, clothing and moving expenses,ammo,provide him with a staff of drill sergeants, teachers and support staff and off course lets not forget health care
(http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3072945/t/army-one-carries-high-price/#.VgUvvWsa51g)
like any business its all about money and training a soldier is not cheap at all
Also we are talking about special forces so we need to take into account that you need to be in good physical condition, strength and stamina are big factors in this - and in this physical criteria the average male will always win vs the average woman
Comment has been collapsed.
You obviously don't know shit about the military brcs, go jerk off on a pic.
Comment has been collapsed.
Alright, I'll bite. How many years have you served then.
Comment has been collapsed.
the USSR had to get as many hands on guns as it could though, so it's not a good example
Comment has been collapsed.
Guessing from your immature behavior, while I served there you wasn't even born...
Comment has been collapsed.
As someone who has a close friend who has been an officer for most of his adult life, I would say that I do know a bit about the army. Like for an example that they don't want people who are in there because "Guns are cool". What they do want is smart & mentally healthy soldiers (hence why a large portion of the tests you have to take when you enlist are focused on that, yes there is a straight up intelligence test in there).
Comment has been collapsed.
Depends on alot of factors, but the most pressing one would be this: No princesses!!!!
Comment has been collapsed.
lol
"Princesses" in the army... they wouldn't make it past the training.
A real princess however...
Comment has been collapsed.
Sadly women like that aren´t made anymore.
This however is an equally vague statement as e.g. saying anything about a womens physique in response to OP/thread title.
I´ll leave it at this:
Cheers to the queen (and women who are perfectly able to kick male arse in the military)!
Comment has been collapsed.
because female physical test are mostly all lower than the male test even if they do the same job
Comment has been collapsed.
That's blatantly not true. There might be incidents where they are, but saying "always" makes your statement untrue. Case where they are not:
Swedish armed forces (yes, I had to take that test, yes there were women there doing that test at the same time as me, and no, they were not judged on a different scale).
Comment has been collapsed.
then thumb up for Swedish and ill switch for most of them
Comment has been collapsed.
yourcat, what you're saying is wrong. Physical abilities are a bell curve. E.g. more men are stronger than women, but some women are stronger than the median or the average man. And there are many physical and mental abilities required in combat beyond just strength.
Comment has been collapsed.
i know is not all man that are stronger than female because is not everyone that do the same thing. i am not saying they should stay at home too, you just need to take in consideration what the evolution did tho every species.
not that wrong ... that make 2 years i study the human body function. the testosterone is an hormone released by the testicle and that hormone work on muscle, higher testosterone = higher muscle grow for the same exercise, as long as i know girls don't have any testicles. there is some factor that isn't related to a specific gender, it's always depend of what they are doing.
of course that is just the basic thing and it's way moire complex than that
Comment has been collapsed.
So your rationale that women can't be effective in combat is that they don't have testicles?
Comment has been collapsed.
Conservative science! :D
Like that guy that proved that gay marriage is scientifically impossible because magnets!
Comment has been collapsed.
?? i am talking about endurance and strength, tactics got nothing to do with that, is like if you compare some one that study and some one that don't, of course with same training they have the same knowledge,
look at the bodybuilder female vs male, the male are away way bigger because of the testosterone (the one that don't take any shot/substitute),
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually, you know what? Let me be a bit more serious. You seem more misguided than actually sexist so here you go:
Yes, the average man is stronger than the average woman. That means bugger all. The average man isn't admitted to spec ops. What you have to ask yourself is: What do I want in spec ops? I want strong and smart people. Do I want men exclusively, by pure virtue of being men? Some people claim that but you don't, you say you only want men because they are stronger. But what if a woman is stronger than a man? Shouldn't she be admitted? Why should you reject her just because she's not a man? We're not asking for a 50/50 quota in the military. We're asking for not giving a damn about gender. If men are indeed stronger on average as you say, then so be it, there'll be more men. But do you think that the strongest woman on earth is weaker than the weakest navy seal? If so, well, she'd have failed the test anyway. Oh well. You'd still have no women in the navy SEALs, but then it wouldn't be discrimination. But what if she isn't?(Which should go without saying really) You just improved the military's quality.
Ugh, that didn't seem coherent.
///Okay, I made a picture. Look at the picture. The black dots represent men. The red dots represent women. We are working under your assumption that the average woman is weaker. So, go and pick the highest 5 males. That's quite the spec ops force! Pick the highest 5 females and it's not quite as good but still close! But now, just pick the 5 best dots regardless of gender - that's your strongest force!
Comment has been collapsed.
i am not english but i think that we are saying the same thing, except that i might have miss used some word and didn't meant the thing they actually mean in that context T,T
you are right about the thing that i don't care about the gender but more about can they do the job or not.
If they can't do it then they need more training like then man that can't do it, that the point of a training
the thing about testosterone is that man got more muscle faster and women got less so it was just taking longer to be the exactly the same, mostly why in every competition they have a female competition and a male competition so it's more fair, is not because they shouldn't be allowed because of that is just because of that. i don't know the number but let's say that male train for 2 h a day everyday maybe the female need to train for 2.5 h or 3h but in final they will be the same
Comment has been collapsed.
Well the problem there is the different competitions. For things like sport where you just want to have a fair match then sure. But for things like the military where you just want the top quality it should be the same test - whoever passes it can join. If women have to work harder to pass it then so be it, there will always be people who work harder than others.
Comment has been collapsed.
what is the source of that picture?
Because according to this:
"“Hand-grip strength of young men, women and highly trained female athletes.” European journal of applied physiology 99.4 (2007)"
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/men-are-stronger-than-women-on-average/
the very strongest female athletes are barely above the median of grip strength for men.
Comment has been collapsed.
Completely irrelevant. The military isn't about grip strength.
Comment has been collapsed.
How is grip strength not relevant to physical strength?
Comment has been collapsed.
It is one part of physical strength. There are other, more important factors to consider. It is my firm believe that when taken all together the difference is marginal. And once again so long as you're making equal tests and not imposing any quotas, what's the problem? Let's say you are right, and men are just that much physically stronger than women, then they'll win all the contests and only men will be accepted anyway. What's the harm in letting more people try? The only case in which it lets them in is if they're better than those already present.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is the case already. In most sports there is no competition between men and women, they are not in the same league. And most of those sports are not only related to grip strength.
It can actually harm people both male and female if they are part of spec ops while not being up to the standards needed for the task.
I'll just put this here since it is relevant:
Karsten Braasch v the Williams Sisters
During the 1998 Australian Open, sisters Serena and Venus Williams boasted that they could beat any man ranked outside the world's top 200. The challenge was accepted by Karsten Braasch, a German player ranked No 203 (his highest ranking was No 38). Before the matches, Braasch played a round of golf in the morning, drank a couple of beers, smoked a few cigarettes, and then played the Williams sisters for a set each, one after the other. He defeated Serena, 6-1, and Venus, 6-2. Serena said afterwards "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."
In 1999 when Serena Williams was 18 and ranked 4th in the world, she re-opened the debate on whether women can compete with men in professional sport. The US Open champion believed she could take on and beat the best players in the men's game - she even applied for a wild card entry to take part in a men's singles event, the Eurocard Open, but this did not eventuate, mainly because she could not compete as she was not a man.Comment has been collapsed.
Going to war without a weak spot is just too unfair D:
Comment has been collapsed.
So you have to study some more, bc testosterone isn't released only by testicles.
It's produced as well in ovaries in small amount. It's not that much as in testicles, but in some conditions overproduction of it can occur in women as well. And sometimes it leads into serious health problems.
Edit. Kacy Catanzaro is a first woman who managed to end course in American Ninja Warriost despite the fact that many "bigger and stronger" men weren't able to achieve it. And despite that whole obstacle course was designed for man anatomy and she had extra problems with elements that were far from eatch other and so on. So don't generalise "more muscle - better / stronger".
Comment has been collapsed.
that why i always said in general men have more testosterone, and i didn't say that it was exclusively made by them.
Comment has been collapsed.
Only that it isn't. You're talking about general, not specifics.
Comment has been collapsed.
Of course, then, whoever is below the specs, don't go in, be it male or female, and who is within the specs go in, be it male or female.
Comment has been collapsed.
that isn't the point of training ? to bring them above average
Comment has been collapsed.
Wait, what? You were talking about tests, now you're talking about training? I'm confusded. :P
I thought you were talking about admittance tests. If it's about training, everyone can improve, given the right training.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, for taking the test you need a training so you can't do one with out the other, because there is no point taking a test that you are sure to not pass.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, it depends on the test. If it's physical tests (what we're talking about, I guess. Not sure anymore. :P), you might just be fit and apt. No specific training required.
Comment has been collapsed.
On the average, yeah, but when you're talking about spec ops, they don't let average in anyway, so your point is moot.
Comment has been collapsed.
a friend of my parent is in the firefighter and female test are some lower, but that stupid because there equipment still weight the same so does it really a good thing ? some test are strange lol
Comment has been collapsed.
and by that i meant why have different test for the same job *
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah, I wouldn't be for lowering the bar just because someone is female. If the work involved requires someone to do X, then the test applicants has to pass should evaluate whether or not they can do X, not X - something because they have different genitals.
Physically demanding jobs should just require that applicants can meet the physical demands regardless of their chromosomes. If a man can't make the cut, then he shouldn't be tasked with that job.
If a woman can't make the cut, then she shouldn't be tasked with that job.
Seems pretty straightforward.
Comment has been collapsed.
So basically this is just "If you don't believe what I believe, you're wrong and an asshole"
Comment has been collapsed.
This is the guy who said you were stupid for liking different video games then him, you think he's gonna be very open minded in politics?
Comment has been collapsed.
Had to look that one up (heard it mentioned before) and well, I have to agree with it.
Comment has been collapsed.
in this century does sex even matter anymore? not to me..
Comment has been collapsed.
i'm actually angry at the post. this shouldn't be an issue.
i just read a "historical drama" on WW1 and about womens right to vote in the UK. and i'm angry about that - almost 100 years ago.
Comment has been collapsed.
he's a troll, read his previous threads. there's no need to reply.
Comment has been collapsed.
why not? if she pass the same test and could do the same job, there shouldn't be any problem
Comment has been collapsed.
Is it time for popcorn already?
Comment has been collapsed.
Wait, they didn't accept women in the navy seals before?
Wth is wrong with America? Get with the times.
Comment has been collapsed.
Sorry but who should cook the meal and clean the house then?
Comment has been collapsed.
Pls don't eat me T.T
hides in some shoes
.jpg)
Comment has been collapsed.
Def time for squirrel stew ;)
SERVINGS 2-3 UNITS US
INGREDIENTS
1 Sq1rr3l, cut up
flour
salt and pepper
2 1⁄2 tablespoons butter
7 cups boiling water
1 teaspoon thyme
1 cup corn
3 potatoes, cubed
1⁄4 teaspoon cayenne
3 medium onions, sliced
2 cups canned tomatoes with juice
DIRECTIONS
Roll the squirrel pieces in flour, salt, and pepper.
Brown in butter.
Add squirrel and all other ingredients, (with the exception of the tomatoes), to the boiling water, cover, and simmer for 1-1/2 to 2 hours.
Add the tomatoes and continue to simmer another hour.
Comment has been collapsed.
There are already women in service in the Shayetet 13, the Israeli version of the navy seals. So why not in the navy seals?
Comment has been collapsed.
this is not exactly true.
there are women, in very dangerous and demanding jobs. but not in combat
there are much better examples from the Israeli army, like Karkal (deseret cat)
Comment has been collapsed.
I could have sworn I read that in a Osprey book, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong. :-)
Edit: Or it may have been in a support role to the Shayetet 13.
Comment has been collapsed.
no idea what that book is.
but there is an interview with the one incharge in Ynet (a sample from the weekend newspaper)
Comment has been collapsed.
i found them but didn't thought it was it.
oh well, maybe there were girls, don't think so.
there were girls in the Matkal (intelligence secret unit), in the combat positions and such.
even 30-40 years ago
Comment has been collapsed.
Israël is surrounded by it's enemies since 1948 so it can't afford to not enlist women be it in supporting roles (to free up maximum number of men for combat) or in some front line roles.
Comment has been collapsed.
may i ask where you are form? really don't have to answer, just wondering
Israel is not surrounded by enemies for a long time... don't believe the media.
We have great peace with Jordan. Egypt is still in a small mess, but it's also a "quiet" peace. we won't enter another war with either of them. hell, a ton of Israelis go there for holidays. both places...
Syria, well, Syria is Syria at the moment... no one is at peace with them
Lebanon = Syria sadly. not all. but enough to make it matter...
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm from the Flanders/Belgium where Jewish schools and synagogues are now protected by our elite Para's soldiers following Islamic terror attacks/murders in Antwerp. Also I don't have it from the media in general I have it from the IDF, the IAF, the IDF spokesperson, World Zionist Organization, United With Israel, Stand for Israel, Likud Party, Ambassador Ron Dermer, The Jewish Home... The PM Benjamin Netanyahu recently called to Belgian Jews to use the law of return for their own safety. In Egypt and largely in the Sinai Islamic terror festers and there are Islamic terrorists training camps there while Jordan finances and harbors Islamic terrorists. Syria and Lebanon are filled with the like of Hezbollah and IS. So basically my words that Israël is surrounded by it's enemies stand be those countries or Islamic terror organizations.
Comment has been collapsed.
all true.
but there is peace with egypt and jordan...
and Bibi likes to scare, sadly that's how he won the last election. he is good at that :(
but that's my opinion
Comment has been collapsed.
Sorry as English is not my native language : you are right that there's peace with Jordan and Egypt; with surrounded I meant/trying to say that not only some countries (Lebanon and Syria) but also the Islamic terror groups in Egypt/Sinai and Jordan surround Israël.
Comment has been collapsed.
It's also my opinion and that of many other Israelis. He's the master of FUD.
There are unfortunately plenty of enemies in the area, but the states of Jordan and Egypt are not among them.
Comment has been collapsed.
Just saw this on the IDF blog:
https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2015/04/06/5-major-threats-facing-israel/
Enemies surroundingThreats facing Israël.
Comment has been collapsed.
well, yeah. but Jordan and Egypt have terrorist...
anyway, didn't even know that site existed. most Israelis don't (i think)
Comment has been collapsed.
You still haven't given a reason for why you say no.
Comment has been collapsed.
they bleed from their vagina and some missions require to stand still for a few days. Dogs smell blood. there you go.
Comment has been collapsed.
Dogs can smell humans in general. They use them to find people buried beneath tons of rubble after a quake. >_>
Comment has been collapsed.
you are right. I have no answer to your logic but i will come up with something. It is my purpose now.
Comment has been collapsed.
Sharks have an affinity for blood.
Navy Seal > Sea > Blood > Sharks.
I have no idea why I decided to help with your logic. I personally love guns and chicks.
Comment has been collapsed.
i've read that only coffee can scare dogs away. time to start drinking up ;)
Comment has been collapsed.
A lot of dogs also hate citrus smells, perfume, cleaning smells, peppers too... more than one option. :)
Comment has been collapsed.
i hate perfume. used to hate coffee. and can't stand cleaning smells...
i think i'll go sniff a tree ;)
Comment has been collapsed.
Men can bleed out of open wounds, extracted teeth or nose in extreme temperatures! No men in the army then? :>
And you know that not every woman spend few days in enormous pain with lot of blood everywhere? Like I have painless periods. Plus thanks to hormone contraception you can easily keep it in check for 2 - 3 months (some people say that it's completely safe to use them up to 6 months to prevent bleeding and so on).
Comment has been collapsed.
No men and women in the army. That's the solution! It would solve a lot of problems (if everyone participated)
Comment has been collapsed.
Something that physically demanding should be a complete meritocracy.
If someone can make it through Seal training and test high enough against the training and their peers to make the cut then they should be in. I don't think I'd care what genitals they had in their pants if they were the best of the best in the military.
Comment has been collapsed.
had to look it up. but yeah.
sadly the USA has donald trump... sorry, he called for it. like a lot
Comment has been collapsed.
i saw girls in the army. and i saw guys in the army. no difference.
Edit: this is the gay marriage thread all over again. a foresee a lot of people getting BL
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm actually a bit surprised and pleased to see how many people who posted on this thread are already on my whitelist. The number of blacklisted ones is far lower.
Comment has been collapsed.
ONLY , If they can pass the tests and training . I don`t se why not ....tell me why not
Comment has been collapsed.
Because there are those (excluding me...) that think women are not equal to men and that they must stay at home...
Comment has been collapsed.
Because use weapons is for ignorants!. Only the ignorantes want to be part of a bullshit like that!
Comment has been collapsed.
Simple answer for why not? Money, the taxpayer money
Comment has been collapsed.
There's this thing going all over the news for a while now that if women pass the rangers training, they will get a chance to accept females in the Navy seals s.o, I don't think that would be the right move for the elite special operations, what are your opinions?
Comment has been collapsed.