But there isn't such a thing, probably. The system picks a winner. And everybody else lost. So eveybody else is equally far away from winning.
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I don't think the rng works like this on this site. It doesn't rotate and stop at some point. There are no different "tiers" how much closer to winning you were than others. There are only two values: Winner and non-winner. So you are in a certain sense always second. Isn't that good enough?
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why not go for a grid- or cube-based presentation ? that way you can have more than 2 people being "right next to the winner" based on nothing but random ordering.
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the user is left anonymous for a reason though.. the only time you could see this would be after the winner marked it received.
the reason they have it anonymous until it is marked as received is so a scammer doesn't change their name and avatar to the winners and try and trick the gifter into giving them "their" won game. no way they will remove that for this.
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One thing worth noting, is that not even the real winner is able to see that they won in the winners list. The only evidence that the real winner has won, is in their giveaways won page. The only people that can see who the winner is on the GA winners page, is the GA creator, and possibly specific staff members that are involved in the re-rolling process.
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I am guessing not many people will support this idea...
But here is something: you can look at the winner (after he receives the gift), go to the "Entries" page for that GA, and see how close you are to the winner. Does it help scratch that itch?
Cheers!
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lol that's one way, but i imagine before choosing the winner, the system would scramble the names?
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You know, I do not think it does, it would be unnecessary work. I imagine (just a guess) that it just counts the number of participants, goes to random.org, picks a number, sees who is the lucky winner.... If user is suspended, it gets another number, I guess (or maybe it weeds out the ineligible users first).
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the wheel could be numerated... each participant could be assigned a random number, then when the number pops up, u could see how close the number was to yours
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But again, this would be unnecessary work -- why choose 10000 random numbers to the users, then pick a random number to see the winner? You might as well just list them in order, there is no difference in the odds of winning...
But, again, I did not code the site, so not sure how they do it in fact.
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well the wheel should only show up on GAs with <1000 entries, so the random number is based on number of entries.
It shouldn't affect the chances of winning, the whole point of this is just to see how close you were to winning.
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Easy to implement but hard on computing power would be system like this:
1) Assing random number for every user, duplicates allowed;
2) Generate random number for every user in the sequence generated in previous point. If there is a collision, generate while there is no collision;
3) User with the greatest number wins, all the users got three numbers in the end: sequence number to pick random number, collisions and the final score.
Nevertheless, you also need a true random number generator.
Edit: On different thought, just assign random number for every user and if the highest number has multiple users, pick the first one or reroll for the winners again :D
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Actually I like the idea because I've always said this site is not charity, it's gambling (but don't let the IRS hear that) but you know that's never going to happen, right ?
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please check the definition of "gambling" because this is not a "gambling" site...
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I'm not getting into one of those kind of debates. I've seen too many over the last few days, one of them lasting several days.
But Partypoker has Freeroll tournaments too where you don't have to pay money to enter but still can win money and I'm pretty sure they still qualify as gambling.
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no debate... just check definition, i don't care if you continue using it wrong...
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Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money and/or material goods.
Something of value, being 'points', are being wagered here by users i.e they give their points and in return get an entry to the giveaway. A giveaway is an event with an uncertain outcome. The intent is to win material goods, or a game in this case. I don't see how that doesn't adhere to the definition, though this is purely based on the first result from a google search, and not from any legal standpoint whatsoever. The only difference here is that the points aren't of true monetary "value"
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points have no value = no gambling
you can call it free "lottery" if you want...
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Just because points aren't obtained by paying money doesn't make their value redundant since the number of points and the point investment required for a giveaway does indicate that point has a numeric value. This is purely based on the English definition, and you can argue all you want from any other standpoint or your understanding, but from the basic definition, Gambling is applicable to this site.
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what if u value those points? >.> like, they're the sacred points that u must use wisely :P
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'How close' doesnt even make any sense in this case. Everyone was at exactly same 'distance' of winning .
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Such an odd concept. It doesn't work like Wheel of Fortune where one thing is adjacent to another. It's more like rolling a multi-sided die where the sides are assigned randomly and don't have a fixed 'position' or relation to one another, therefore there is no such thing as rolling 'close'. There is one winner (per copy) and the rest are all equally-distant losers, so it doesn't really make sense.
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you mean it was predetermined all along?
I knew it!
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I think the winners are chosen based on randomness, so even if your entry is next to the winner's entry, it's still a lost :(. Cause of that, I don't think the wheel is a necessary feature and it might put burden to the site developers. And Bump!
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well most of them are saying so too, but honestly I don't know how the system picks the winner. if it is truly random, maybe there could be a graphic to represent it? like the image, each user has a number attributed to them, either determined by their position of entry, or randomly generated. then a number generator will pop a number randomly, which will be the winning number. in this case, a circle isn't needed, but u could see how close you were to winning by seeing your number.
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The graphic representation you are suggesting unfortunately would not mean a thing.
Basically the way rng works when it's scripted would mean that being 'next to the winner' is not more likely to have won than being on the other end of the circle/grid/whatever. The chance of winning in any case is 1 / [number of entries]. The script would assign each valid entry a number, then generate a random number in that array, and then output that number.
Untill the number/winner is chosen each and every entry has a similar chance of winning. There is no real 'next to the winner' in computerbased rng. It's not the same as spinning an actual wheel where you do have an actual 'next to the winner' which would have been chosen if you used a bit more force or bit less force when spinning the wheel.
For example:
Entries: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
WInner: 1
Then the entry number 2 was equally likely as 3 or 4 or 5.
Remember: it's not a wheel or grid really.
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yeah, i didnt know spacecat chose its' winners in that manner, but what of the graphic just above your comment?
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Even with that graphic that you replied to quan1503 with it wouldn't mean anything. In that graphic 6 won, and you would think 5 and 7 had most chance and were so close to winning. But that's wrong and misleading. Cause it's not chosen in a wheel-form, it's not roulette. Any other number of that line were equally close to winning. So all any graph would say is: 'all these numbers were equally close to winning'. and because of that any graph is misleading unless all numbers are equally close/far away from the winning number to show they all had an equal chance.
AJIam has the only not misleading graph. (if you put numbers in each part). And that's the graph I described at the end.
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i see! well thanks for clarifying how RNG works! I guess there isn't a way to make graphic representation to show how close you were to winning then?
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You could technically write an algorithm that does that and doesn't affect win-chances, but it would be incredibly difficult, time consuming and require a lot (like dozens times more, maybe even hundreds or thousands) more processing power. It would definitly not be worth it.
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True, you are right that technically you could (and after thinking about it I figured out a method to do it) but since implementing it would be such a huge pointless waste of time and processing power I considered it 'impossible' due to being totally never worth it.
:)
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You could, but it would be meaningless. For every unsuccessful giveaway, you were exactly as close to winning as everybody else, and it has no effect at all on future giveaways. Before each giveaway, you have a probability of winning of n/m, where n is the number of prizes and m is the number of entries, and immediately after the giveaway, your probability is either 1 because you won or it's 0 because you didn't (multiply by 100 to get probabilities in percentage).
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As others have said, a graphic wouldn't mean anything. A simplified RNG is basically this:
Every user gets entered into an Array (list of all users). The RNG then rolls for a number and the person with that entry in the Array wins. So for example if it rolls the number 362, the person at 362 wins. That doesn't mean that person 361 and 363 were close to winning though. If it wouldn't have rolled 362, it might as well have rolled 2 or 2974.
It's not like a wheel you spin, but more like pulling a number out of a hat (can't put it more simplified then that).
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I guess i understand what they are saying, but the hat representation wouldn't be accurate either if i understood correctly - u could see how close your hand was to the other numbers. but this means that there is absolutely no way to see how close you were to winning then?
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but this means that there is absolutely no way to see how close you were to winning then?
There isn't. But as others have said, you're just as close to winning as everyone else. It's really just being lucky that the RNG rolls your number.
u could see how close your hand was to the other numbers
Well, yeah, but that's just nit-picking really. There is no such thing as truly random. Not in real life and not in computing. Some things come close, but it's always done by some kind of algorithm and/or logic.
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This kind of visual/aesthetic deception is an old psychological trick used in casinos with slot machines. It's designed to enourage people to keep gambling by making it seem as if they were "this close" to winning last time, and should keep trying because they may win soon. It would serve no purpose here, and it's ethical emptiness should always be discouraged.
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I'm not sure about casinos... but i guess in SG there isn't a purpose (thanks to many who explained to me how RNG works)
but anyways, I still wanna know how close I was to winning, despite the impossibility >.>
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Hello SGers!
After seeing countless GAs lost, despite the favourable odds, I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to have something like a wheel marked with the participant's username and an arrow to indicate the winner. I mean, I've always wondered how close I am to winning a GA, and maybe this could make thing more exciting. Of course, this idea is purely aesthetic and shouldn't affect the RNG used by spacecat.
However, i know that having 1k-2k participants would make the circle too hard to make out, so maybe the circle would only apply to GAs with <1000 participants.
What do you guys think?
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