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those "gamers", I mean girls who play games on tablets or smartphone from that stupid article
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well even without any research I can say there is more males than females in PC games
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But research/companies think Gaming "includes" stuff like Candy Crush.
That's not true. "Gaming" and "Casual Gaming" have to been seen separated.
Candy Crush easily has your 52% female gamers.
Games like StarCraft II might not even have 5%.
It's like the question: Are most drivers male or female? On the streets, it might be 55:45 or close to 50:50 even.
But if you look at the racetracks, there are only very few female drivers.
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Exactly, you are right :)
If you take a look at the playerbase of well known titles such as CSGO, Dota, LoL and so on you will find way more males..
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and what makes you think that those titles are representative of whole population?
For example, I've never played them (well, I tried Dota once - I did tutorial and I decided I don't care enough to play it) and there are more people like me who play mostly singleplayer, so we're invisible if you look only at online gaming.
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But here goes the problem with definition. Where do you draw the line? Sure, extremes are simple, but what about the middle ground? What about The Sims? Mario Kart? Sim City? CoD? HOGs? Point & click adventure games? (Where do you draw the line between a P&C and a HOG?)
Also, would excluding simple games like what we call "casual games", that are often found on cellphones, also exclude most classic arcade games like Pac-man & Defender?
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The line is drawn at anything you can play on Facebook. And they count those too.
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Do you mean that would be easily implemented on Facebook, or as something that's actually on facebook?
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Probably both. Although there might be a few undemanding gems out there that might work on FB. Generally anything that has an "action limit" that needs to recharge or whatever is bs and shouldn't count.
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If we take a look at things that could easily be turned into a facebook game then that one would make games like this "casual". Simple graphics (that could be simplified further) and an interface that would make it easy to implement in a web-based system. Actually, almost anything turnbased would work. One thing is for certain though, and that is that by your definition World of tanks is casual.
Cooldown mechanics, energy limiters and such are not all that uncommon in F2P games in general. They might be expressed in slightly different ways, but they are a limiter on the amount of things you can do. The Old Republic actually has a system like this in place (or at least it used to have, I don't know if they removed it, but it was introduced when the game went F2P). Is The Old Republic a casual game?
I'm trying to remember the name of it, but there's also a MOBA that has cooldown mechanics built into the game similar to those of FarmVille. Actually a rather competent game, that in terms of depth & complexity is roughly on par with LoL.
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Well I did say there are exceptions, something like that Panzer game is too complex to qualify as casual. The idea would be that it's something easy and repetitive, generally these experiences are designed to take advantage of people with addictive personalities, shallow and pointless time wasters with no purpose or point, purely designed to get you to repeatedly spend money on them.
MMOs are a different beast, they can qualify as both casual and hardcore depending on their design complexity and paywalls. For all intents and purposes many games on FB can qualify as MMOs (not all MMOs are RPGs) as they encourage players to collaborate, form alliances and share, share, SHARE! (the more people they get the better for the publisher lol).
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generally these experiences are designed to take advantage of people with addictive personalities, shallow and pointless time wasters with no purpose or point, purely designed to get you to repeatedly spend money on them.
So basically arcade games?
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Oh ya, they were definitely made to milk you dry of your precious quarters until gaming evolved and hardcore gaming became a thing.
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It was a huge deal when people could finally experience umlimited time in a game they usually had to pay per play.
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The thing about these games though, which would make them quite "hardcore", is the high skill ceiling. It's possible to get really good at them, and a good chunk of people did get really good at them. This is opposed to games such as Tomb Raider, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Half-Life and so on, which have a low skill ceiling. And this is something that they have in common with a lot of these "easy to pick up" mobile games, they reward skill/mastery. So in this regard, they're not actually that different from games such as CS or DOTA 2, where you're expected to play the game over and over, in semi-short bursts, to get better.
Also, the "Home revolution" for games happened long before arcade games were "phased out" or so to speak. Arcade games lasted through the 80's and up until the 90's (well, they still exist, but not nearly to the same degree as the 70's-mid 90's). Games that relied heavily on mastery and that were simple to pick up & play remained popular among gamers for a long time. If anything, it was the rise in storage space that made it so that games that were less about mastery became the norm.
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You explained it very well and I agree with you. Although I always find it funny when a girl says they like games but they do not play even the top mobile or Facebook games that need real mastery and are popular. For example, I did enjoy Temple Run and similar endless runners a lot and I prefer such 'simple concept, hard to master' type of games for a phone as they are excellent time wasters and the small screen on a phone can't make me play something more serious, let alone struggle with something supposedly FPS with a touch screen. On the other hand, virtually my best friends who are girls are all playing computer games quite a lot (LoL, Assassin's Creed, various RPGs like Diablo or Witcher 3,adventures and such). Of course, guys play games too. I guess it's simple - gaming is popular, and it is fun for anyone who enjoys it, there is no need for stereotypes. In addition to that, I am also a girl.
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"The study" is a survey. Surveys look at a small group of people, not at whole population. How many gamers really take any surveys? I don't give a damn. I never took part in a survey and never will. No wonder the survey shows so many girls.
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So you're basically saying that statistics holds no merit and can't be used? Because any survey will need to limit itself somehow, the trick is to get a representative result.
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As FeiLing says, that's casual gamers, not real gamers,
Same happened when there was research that only 5% of Steam users are active and that PC Gaming is less thna you expect, which was complete bullshit, just because there is so much scam accounts, secondary and other ppl with several Steam accounts making that ton of non active Steam "members", counting those accounts was not reliable, but they still did.
In this research the same, also as Vigilum says, research is based on asking a small amount of ppl, and applying the results to the population, if the research was asking this on MMO and other gaming forums obviously most girl gamers will be there, but if they ask in other places not related to gaming the results will be completely different.
Ask ppl here which is better PSN or Steam, Steam will win, ask the same on PSN forums, PSN will win.
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In this research the same, also as Vigilum says, research is based on asking a small amount of ppl, and applying the results to the population,
How else would you do statistical research other than taking a small (but representative) sample?
As FeiLing says, that's casual gamers, not real gamers,
Define casual.
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Taking the results from neutral zones where there is girl gamers and non gamers, but too bad, I don't know any place where there is approximately same number of gamer and non gamer girls, not even Facebook, so those results will always vary depending where you ask. They also could ask in totally different places and then put results together, idk if that could be called a good research.
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That sounds like an excellent way of skewing statistics, if you're actively looking for a place with a roughly equal amount of gamers and non gamers. Actually, what you're proposing might even be considered falsifying results.
What you need to do is get a random sample. One method to do this would be to call say 500 women and 500 men and ask them if they game. This would be a small sample size, but it would still be likely to be representative. Want to make it more likely that the results are accurate? Increase the sample size.
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Casual, who plays games or one game occasionally, and mostly simple games such as in Facebook, mobile or some times with friends, happens a lot on facebook, consoles, mobile, those ppl normally are not interested in Gaming news, they don't watch streams, don't have active Steam accounts or have a few games, have a few games on consoles.
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That's still a very vague definition. So if simple games is part of the definition, then I take it that people who occasionally play Pac-Man, Defender & Super Mario Bros are "casuals"? Because those games are simpler than most of the "simple" games on cellphones.
Or would someone who just buys a console for their annual CoD fix be considered casual?
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I think yes if a person just play CoD on his console, he is casual because besides CoD he won't be interested in anything else, and about the cellphones yes they will be casuals too, unless these ppl also spend several hours playing different video games many days per week. Also if you play one game but professionally, that's another thing, you will be a Progamer, who earns money playing it or big prizes in contests, is not the same as playing one game and trying to be professional which most ppl do when they only play LoL for example, for CoD that's not the case.
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So someone who mainly plays retro games, but has a job that prevents him/her from playing often is a casual gamer?
Also, would someone playing strategy games like Panzer General on his or her cellphone be considered a casual gamer? Would a LoL or DOTA player be considered casual if they just play for fun an hour a day?
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Some of them probably, because they won't give their games and gaming time much importance playing 1h per day, just as good and easy time consume they "live in a different world" than other's who only think about games eveytime, and for who games take more important role in everyday live.
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On the flip side, if you were spending >2h a day playing cellphone games, and were following the news for those, would you still be a casual gamer?
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Yes because he is interested just in one game and know only news about that game, not interested in other gaming things besides that. He most likely won't be the person who's gonna spend money on new coming console games or PC games.
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But Fnord is talking about multiple cellphone games.
And why would that person buy new consoles or PC games if his/her preferred platform are cellphones?
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As Entropia said, I'm talking about someone playing on his or her cellphone who plays multiple games, and follow the cellphone gaming scene. Someone who would read a site such as touch arcade
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Well in that case I think that won't be a casual gamer, if he/she is that much interested in his hobby.
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So it's not so much down to what games you play, but how much you play, and if you're limiting yourself to only a handful of games?
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Besides how much you play it's probably about how much importance you give to it. Maybe you can play everyday 1 single game and become an expert in it like some space meteor shooting mobile or arcade game, that will give you nothing in life, but you won't be the casual in that game in particular, you will play better than 99% of ppl and achieve the highest scores.
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that will give you nothing in life,
Like more or less any other game out there? They are fun, but playing CS:GO gives you about as much in life as playing Candy Crush. You do at most get some bragging rights among friends if you're really good at the game.
And games like Candy Crush, Bejeweled or Tetris actually have a really high skill ceiling. It's another type of "skill" than CS, DOTA, EU or RA, but it's far higher than something like Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, Dragon Age or Diablo.
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Well reasoned, thank you for following up with your line of questions.
I think we are at a point where it is important to explore the definitions of what gaming was, is, and has become in order for people to think about and make sense of it from different contexts.
Another perspective I'm interested in seeing are those who are hardcore about their facebook/f2p games and have no interest in or are casual about "AAA" games. Truth be told, I think I lie somewhere closer to this perspective due to the ease and convenience with which mobile/tablet games can be played as opposed to the difficulty in finding time to invest dozens of hours in front of a computer or TV screen.
For this reason, I'm very interested in games of very high quality and replayability, but which can fully be enjoyed and "completed" in some sense within a 1-2 hour timeframe.
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The game doesn't actually define if someone is a gamer or a casual gamer. There are just typical gamer games (like RTS or Shooter) and typical casual gamer games (flash and facebook games).
So what is the difference between a gamer and a casual gamer?
It can be answered in a single word:
PASSION. The difference is Passion.
And for some games it's very rare that people develop passion (Note: passion is not related to addiction at all).
In a game like StarCraft for e.g., there are a lot of people with passion. They play the game regularly, maybe every day, they play to win, they play to rank up to Master League, they work hard on strategies and to get better, they care for their APM and their FPS, they look for guides, watch streams, follow tournaments. (There are tournaments in the first place).
Of course there are also people who play StarCraft casually, but that means they don't care for all these things, they just play the campaign or vs bots only, funmaps or maybe some 3v3 or 4v4 with friends where everyone just does whatever he wants without any strategy really. They aren't interested in esports or a competition of any form, just trying to kill some time with as little effort as possible.
Now a game like candy crush is the exact opposite. There might be a handful of people in the world, who take candy crush seriously and play it to be the best candy crush player in the world. The majority of people though play it as casual gamers. They're just trying to pass time. They have no intention to beat the highscores or get all achievements. They don't try to really figure out the game (mechanics). No passion, just boredom.
What was the original question again? Grills? Right.
Casual gamers: 50% grills.
Real gamers with passion though very rarely are females (for whatever reason, but it's a fact.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's because men and women are in fact different and usually develop passion for different things).
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I don't watch streams and I'm not interested in news, I'm not gamer enough :< -sobs in the corner-
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Casual games are still games though.
I really don't see the point in separating the two.
Just because candy crush is casual, doesn't mean it's not a game that's not even worth to be called a game.
It's a game, a puzzle one, are all puzzle games, casual games, shall we not count them?
I really don't see the point in separating games and casual games.
There's 212 pages of games in Steams library with the tag Casual.
Are we to not include the 212 pages in stuff like this? Sounds silly to me.
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Kinda like cars and motorcycles are both vehicles. Some vendors even sell both.
But you'd be kinda pissed if you went to buy a motorcycle but the merchant urges you to buy a car instead saying that it was the same thing?
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Except cars and motorcycles are two completely different vehicles, one is on two wheels, other is on 4, among other obvious differences.
How much of a difference is there on "casual games" and "games", that casual games are more casual?
What are casual games? Where is the line drawn? When is a game not casual anymore?
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See my above posting about passion:
It's not about the game - it's about the players: a game is casual, when it is played by mostly casual players.
You could also take bicycles and motorbikes instead if the number of wheels is a problem for you ;-)
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Then comes the problem that a bicycle doesn't have an engine.
What I'm wondering is, what is a casual game?
I play Terraria casually, does that mean Terraria is a casual game?
Just where is the line drawn?
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1: Why?
2: How should we know?
3: It's a given in general guys game more.
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How do you know that for sure?
Do you know everyone on this planet?
You do know that in multiplayer games, a lot of females hide their gender, or simply don't share it, because nobody should care what gender you are in games anyway.
Some just hide it because they don't wanna meet the guys that's never seen or heard a girl in his life, we all know the type.
Some just don't really think about it, they just play the game, someday, maybe, just maybe someone will ask what your gender is.
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There are only two sexes available to humans, as sex represents the biological reproductive state of an individual.
Are you perhaps thinking of alternative/non-binary genders?
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There isn't a 'here we go again' when someone asks you for clarification on your very unique word use, unless you make a habit of misusing words :/
In which case, don't direct that statement toward me, but a mirror.
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So which is this mysterious third sex you're referring to? You're not clarifying anything with that answer. As far as I'm aware there's only two biological genders. Even transgender people identify themselves with certain sex.
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I mean, Intersex is a thing, but I don't know what Leelaw is referring to that.
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Well yes, but they have characteristic of both sexes. Not sure if that would count as a third sex. Just a combination of the two. Also intersex is somewhat ambiguous term since not all intersex people are the same.
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Like Merciana noted, it's a hybridization. Whether you identify as gender-fluid, male, female, androgyny, as hermaphroditic/dual-sexed, or as some other state I'm forgetting, you're still just expressing two biological genders.
Similarly, you're considered biologically male if you have a Y chromosome, regardless of any other factors, since a Y chromosomal state is treated as a genetic variance.
Unfortunately, that's also the premise that bigots use to decry non-biological genders.
If you're pointing out a third biological gender, it'd probably be asexually reproductive species, though as far as the animal kingdom goes (versus viruses, plants, etc), I recall those as typically being referred to as female.
But really, the argument here isn't that there CAN'T be a third sex, it's that there isn't one that's commonly recognized, much less universally defined.
Hence, why clarification would be needed as to Leelaw's topic.
Add in that biological sex seems a weird thing to bring up in a topic that's primarily based on perpetuation of gender roles, and that more likely Leelaw meant gender, it seemed a fair question on my part to ask, in terms of attempting to understand their perspective.
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But really, the argument here isn't that there CAN'T be a third sex, it's that there isn't one that's commonly recognized, much less universally defined.
That depends...
We have ZW-pairings of chromosomes, which results in some interesting differences to XY pairings, which results in the female being the one that "determines" the sex of the offspring.
Then there's W' (notice the small ' next to the W), which some scientists wants to classify as causing a 3rd gender, as with a W'Z pairing, you get a species where certain females will give birth to only females. These females will in turn either be W'Z or ZZ. Males are also ZZ, but will mate with ZZ females and W'Z females. A female with an ZZ pairing will only give birth to males.
And this is something that might well be officially called a 3 gender system.
Not really relevant when talking about humans, but I find it quite interesting.
Also, source
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I made my But really, the argument here isn't that there CAN'T be a third sex phrasing with such in mind ;)
I simply didn't add a 'for humans' to the end of your quoted comment :D
My point was just when you say 'Third Sex' versus 'Third Gender', or the more modern 'Non-Binary Gender', you need to clarify the usage as it applies to humans.
Are you considering people born without sex organs, perhaps? Are you treating hermaphrodites as a third sex? Are you referring to XXX and XXY and XYY triple chromosomal mutations, as a sort of special classification for sexual genders incapable of reproduction?
You could argue I'm taking the phrasing too literally, and should just guess at their intent being more common and say nothing, except that actual more appropriate phrases do exist, to avoid such confusions :P
I was genuinely curious if they had a new perspective to consider :X
Though given the context of this topic, that seemed very unlikely, and a bit weird.
However, since non-binary genders exist in multiple binary roles or in neither, their inclusion in a topic regarding binary roles seemed just as weird to me.
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In humans X, XX, XXX & XXXX are considered "female", even if a reproductive organ is missing (anything other than XX is considered to be anomalies), while anything containing an Y makes it male (sex).
The W'Z & ZZ females might end up being called different sexes, though it's such a new discovery that I don't know if they've actually settled that debate yet (the earliest reference to it that I can find is from 2009).
Want to confuse things even further? Take a look at this.
And I should have said 3 sex system. Gender & Sex both translate to the same word in my language.
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I actually noted that first part, already :D
Genetics is a fun field :)
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Male, female, androgyny, dual-sex, or gender-fluid.
Androgyny is typically considered a state between male and female, that doesn't overly express either state, dual-sex being a hybridization of the two states, and gender-fluidity being non-static in your sex-identity, shifting between male and female expression as better fits your mood and circumstances.
Of course, the main point isn't that gender roles are either a redefinition of the standard binary paradigm, or an absence of it altogether;
It's that it's based on perceived gender expressions ASSOCIATED with the two biological genders, but not inherent to them [as the matriarchal and equalized cultures throughout history have definitely proven].
Thus, when you refer to biological sex, you're talking about the binary state as it refers to reproduction, not gender roles.
But even as far as gender roles goes, the only definitive, static third state possible would be gender-neutrality: And speaking from that perspective, I can't say I've ever heard that phrase used in regards to us o.O;
Now, what I THINK Leelaw was referring to was Third Gender, which, according to Wikipedia, apparently can also still be misreferred to as Third Sex (a term that fell out of use in the 1970s, when gender roles became better understood.)
Quote: In any case, all of these characterizations are defining gender and not the sex that biology gives to living beings..
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There are also intersex people, but I'm not sure it Leelaw was referring to them.
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So you can move to my country and destroy this great ratio between boy/girl gamers, i dont think so buddy
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A question for you, why don't you activate all your won games?
It's always the people making these kind of topics..
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You can't give them away, you need to redeem them on your own account, read the rules.
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I know a year ago, but just so you know in the future, and still doesn't make it okay.
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Why not? He also gives Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 to his sister.
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lol... seriously dude. somebody points out that you broke a rule and now you're being rude about it.
Not activating a game is a reason to get suspended from steamgifts.
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If you want to see the account with MW3 : http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198052248116/games/?tab=all
I was laughing because he was attacking me for no reason, i may have broke rules last year but i haven't understand that i need to activate it in my OWN account ! I still haven't regift/sell it by the way...
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When you come back from your suspension, feel free to read Steamgifts' FAQ, which you've clearly ignored. It doesn't matter if you broke it last year or this year, if you haven't been punished for it...well it seems like you got your just desserts anyway.
You should only enter to win giveaways for yourself, and if you win a game, it must be activated and redeemed to the Steam account used during registration. If a friend is interesting in joining giveaways, they'll need to register for their own account.
Anyway, enjoy your suspension! :)
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it funny that i found that most of the time i see someone point that out to some OP , it tend to be you . Nothing wrong with it of course, but it just a bit funny
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Think it's just coincidence, definitely not looking at people's profiles all day, but i am just getting tired of people with silly topics like this (or the ones with help i lost cv etc), usually such topics are made by people who did something like not redeeming wins.
I really don't know why people are actually responding seriously in this topic. it's just 1 sentence in the op, he doesn't really involve himself in the discussions, to me it's trolling, but whatever. :)
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Be careful though, you could be suspended for calling out.
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Thanks, well i just asked a question to him, nor i made a specific topic to accuse him, he made the op. Think that is within the lines, seen it happen alot of times though without it being an issue.
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lol ofc have more female gamers its so obvious m8 ..... kappa
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Yeah, the origin of the joke is this: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/there-are-no-girls-on-the-internet But nowadays they put that deep web clausule :p
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how would anyone know that? it's not like they always say "I'm a woman" on the net or wear "I am a gamer"- shirts outside "... and I would not trust statistics.
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If only everyone else here could just leave at that :P
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I'm working in game industrie, sou you may trust my experience.
52% from your link was calculated based on simple poll among ALL type of gamers, including extremely casual one. If you exclude all "gamers" who are launching angry birds several times a week in subway, you will get no more than 40% of females.
With consoles whe bes f/m ration has WiiU with about 51%, but mostly cause of mothers are buying it for children.
PS and Xbox are about 40% too
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Well, to be honest... my wife is hard gamer.
My main party in MMOs contains 5 girls and only one male...
my working chat contains about 65% of females, most of them are at least decent players too.......
but global statistics is as i described above.
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No way of telling, really. There seem to be a bit more of a social stigma involved for women to talk about games around these parts, than for men. Thus I usually have to know a woman better than a man before she brings up gaming as a conversation topic, so there's probably a larger amount of "hidden" women. The only thing I can say with any degree of certainty is that it's quite common for both genders.
Most people I know well, be it men or women, under the age of 35 play games (and not just phone games). Not everyone are "hardcore" gamers though, many just play games casually (they play games from their favourite series, and not much else). Would both of these count as gamers?
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I know all gamers in my country, so I know the answer extremely well.
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More of my female friends are gamers than my male friends are.
Sure, some of them dominantly play 'words with friends', 'mario kart', and 'angry birds', but I personally mostly play flash games myself, despite being a hardcore rpg/adventure/pnc gamer.
The Casual gamer state comes from degree of use, not preferred genres.
Otherwise all of us who like HOGs, classic card/board games, pinball, etc would just be straight removed from any statistics, no matter what else we played :P
It's pretty sad that when confronted with "females play RPGs and other single player non-FPS games more than males" and "males dominate FPS and MMOG fields", some males still feel the need to assert meaningless dominance by insisting that since their experiences match the statistics, in that females are underrepresented online, obviously the rest of the facts are "also" wrong.
And that may be one of the driving reasons female and transgender players don't like playing online.
Once you've been told how you're going to be found and raped, how you're good for nothing, and how you don't matter, nevermind a constant barrage of slightly less intense degregation, mockery, and disdain, and it just isn't fun.
Though, lets be honest, most online shooter games are garbage anyway, and we all know it-
It's not OUR fault males have terrible taste in games, and aren't real gamers.
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I was playing in trial of SW:TOR and everything was nice to the point when other people from my random squad learned that I'm a woman. They started to spam chat box with "you character has got nice hair, do you have them as well irl" / "lol you didn't manage to heal me propely, girls" and so on. So I stopped to give any info on my gender when I'm playing online xD (not that I'm playing like this often).
I know 3 women who plays in RPG / FPS games. And few men who plays only in LoL. For them I'm less of a gamer, because I'm a girl and most probably just fake one, and the fact that I like to play is to be better in their eyes. Sigh.
Well I'm not saying that majority of men have opinion like this, but this number is enought to make me act like"don't say that you love ME universe, most probably among this group of men will be at least one that will laught of me and start to mock me".
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I can relate to this so much. I try to avoid mentioning that I'm a woman these days in any gaming-related spaces because I'm sick of getting singled out just because of my gender and too many times dudes in online games have made me feel unsafe. I've stopped playing games with strangers altogether, and I'm hesitant to accept friend requests even though I love meeting new people. Now I only play with close friends (and, to come back to the original topic, most of my gamer friends happen to be women).
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In my country gaming is viewed as something childish (especially by older people) - so you are still in better situation ;p (but its just my opinion).
My mother visited me month ago. She saw i play payday - "omg, you are almost 30 y.o. and still playing those stupid games, all you do is "pew, pew, pew".
Month later my wife's mother visited us. And she saw as her daughter was playing witcher: "omg, i thought you are grown up enough to stop playing games"...
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in Wow 8 from our 24man raid crew was female. AND NO, we werent bad, we had immortal title, hard modes etc, was a long time ago tho but all raider was 20+ except one norwegian boy who was 15.
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Just wondering
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