Typical European politicians, nothing new to see here...
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In a not too distant past the Christian religion, which shaped our society and culture, was very strict too. Slowly society evolved as the religion evolved, or some might say devolved, and the strictness gave way to liberal thinking.
Now we have reached a point where this evolving is taking the piss, and political correctness is born.
We are now trying to be so nice that it is eating away at the basis of our society and culture. The bad things are mostly gone, the good things are taking hold, but we so eager to be accepting of everything and everyone else, that we are punishing our own society and culture.
Does that make sense? (probably not, I keep rewriting it :P)
Basically, we are trying to be too nice, it's slowly eroding our own culture and beliefs.
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The last sentence is atleast more clearer then the ones before it. :p
It makes sense, and also how i feel it.
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It's not religion which evolved. It's culture and society which emancipated themselves from religion. Religion had to give in in order not to completely lose any relevance.
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Elements of Christians are still the same way. In fact it's ridiculous how well and close the attitudes of the Fundamentalist (or ultra-Orthodox) sects of the 3 Mono religions match up (Might be some similar folks in the other 2 big religions, Hinduism and Buddhism, as well but for the West and Mid East the Mono ones hold sway). And yet they all hate each other and seemingly anyone who doesn't do as they wish. Mind you they make up a a small portion of their respective religions and cultures...but they are such bullies as to seem to be larger and more influential than they are.
TL;DR
Religions aren't the problem, a small number of people using an incredibly narrow interpretation of their religion to get their way are the problem.
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but Merkel said there must be no tolerance towards those that are not tolerant... is she then tolerant or not tolerant? what a mess
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To be honest, it's bullshit. They should be able to skinny dip wherever. There's nothing wrong with the human body. One thing would be if these were orgies next to the centre, but for bathing? Come on.
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The official said the bathing rules were actually in place before the home was planned but are now being enforced in a bid to head off any potential incidents.
seems to certainly be part of it. But from a political standpoint, the politicians maneuvering the pro-refugee-assistance side are already taking a lot of heat from sexual aggressions that've already been displayed by refugees- they'd want to cover their ass as much as possible here: because boy would another incident here (at a camp they set up in a location they chose) give their opponents way too much fuel to use against them.
That all aside, it's still a fully secular issue (and one related to rape culture, sexual repression, and misogyny) rather than a religious issue, so the focus of the OP is a bit peculiar.
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Neither do I. :P
I mean, getting upset that some bureaucrat put a male center next to the nudist property instead of a female one, yeah- that's a jerk move. But getting upset because Muslims are infringing on our Christian values? I'm totally lost as to how we get to that.
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Something similar happened in Quebec, though to a lower scale, and sparked outrage. The debate is still there at every election, and it's a major issue.
In their case, if I remember correctly, it was about some Jewish center being near a gym, and the innocent young Jews could see through the windows and were tempted by those pretty women working out. Well turns out that group asked for the gym to have tinted windows, and that was not okay with a big part of the population.
Personally I think it should be up to whoever has beliefs to seclude themselves out of those evil temptations, and not for other people to forcefully adapt to those.
And there's definitely something about Christianity going loose a bit, like m3rc said. It's just a shame that not every religion is at the same point in that regard, and there's obviously a huge regional aspect to it, in addition to more non-representative "extremist" groups who take those things more seriously. I hope I live to see how that turns out in the next decades.
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Given the "quality" of the media, this story is probably a hoax, like a large number of similar others regarding refugees...
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Don't know if you are from germany, but I could link you to way more of these kind of stories, which aren't a hoax..
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If you want i can add them to the op so i don't have just one story with just "light facts" as some are putting it.
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Like this one? :-)
http://hoaxmap.org/
If you make a bit of search on the net you'll see that the true story is quite different (and a typically phobic one)...
https://www.rt.com/news/345984-nudist-colony-refugees-germany/
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Please reread the article, you're confusing a lot of people with your misrepresentation of it.
The problem is a systemic issue of certain refugees becoming sexually aggressive in response to the much freer rights to their body that women in Germany possess. This has turned into at least one instance of rape already, and the officials in question are wanting to forestall any possible dangers between the all-male refugee camp and the nudist camp. It's the politicians covering their asses, nothing more complex than that.
Also, "while the other way around, they won't make exceptions for example for someone christian, in a muslim land."? They're refugees (and thus can't make allowances or exceptions of any sort), and moreover, you're deeply and incorrectly confusing politics and religion there.
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About your second part, there is a whole nother discussion there on how much exactly truely they are refugees or just seeking fortune, it's what you said and causing alot of problems, the majority are young men (ticking testosteron timebombs) and not so much people with their family and that truely need a safe place). I believe you as a guest have to be the one to adapt, and not the other way around, you are misinterpreting me too, i am not asking a muslim land to build a church for someone christian, they adapt too and so should refugees here.
Compare it with you inviting someone in your own house and your guest says "you can't do this, i don't want you to do that", it's the same.
There have been many events in all countries across Europe, and sometimes religion was involved (how many of all those young men you can be 100% sure some aren't IS sympathisants? there has been in the news there might be some of them)
There has been one rape incident most know about around new years eve, but there also has been 1 young girl killed in a centre (i believe in Sweden or Switserland), and i can't speak about other countries but here there are alot of violence incidents in the centres.
The majority of extreme (not all) muslims want their women covered, women are treated like something lesser, and they would be offended by seeing any woman nude (going back to your first point) having a group full of men who might be offended it is a mix of testosteron, culture and religion.
Do you think a group of catholics or christians next to it would force the nudists to put some clothes on?
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Pretty sure nudism isn't a core fundament of Christianity, nor that Christianity is the official religion of Germany.
I'm just saying, you're conflating a whole lot of unrelated elements into the matter- which is a purely political one based on mitigating the amount of refugee incidents. Regardless of what the problem-making refugees' basis for coming over is, they're pretty lousy, dangerous individuals.
Now, lets say YOU had a community arrive, and you were told that some percent were criminals (of various severity), but the paperwork had gotten lost telling you which ones they were, or how many there were. Relocation camps are frowned on, so you'd try your best to limit risky interactions until you can get a clearer picture of things.
It's all very sensible, politically speaking- and it's based in 'potential lawbreakers', not 'muslims bad'.
None of the things we're discussing have anything to do with Christianity or Islam, but with a regressive culture clashing with a progressive one.
As soon as you start making assumptions about, or generalizing them (especially off things like religion), you get into awkward territory.
since Germany can't say "eh, well fuk'm, they're damn dirty muslims, kick 'em all out" (at least, not unless incidents escalate dramatically and give the opposing party enough leverage), they're giving benefit of the doubt while also not openly inviting trouble. It's the smart play.
The fact that the all-male camp was located where it was is what's really odd- would have been more suitable for a womens' camp, so someone really dropped the ball there. Anything after that is just politicians trying to deal with that initial mistake as best they can.
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Germany (licking the boots of the EU) kinda is taking the leader role of welcome to every refugee out there, while most are still having problems of their own (helping Greece and such?) i think that is part of our "problem". If our job chances are good, our healthcare etc etc most wouldn't even have a thing against some refugees coming here, be more tolerant too. It's why certain right winged politic parties are doing well.
I don't know if a women's camp would have made that much difference (are there even that much women refugees (without seperating them from a family) to make a camp for?)
I agree they shouldn't have put that camp there in the first place.
And i agree it's a big mess our politicians are making, they aren't just dropping the ball on the refugee issue, but just anything they put their hands on.
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Do you think a group of catholics or christians next to it would force the nudists to put some clothes on?
Yes, duh, obviously.
Again, you're confusing culture with religion, and then making universal assumptions of an entire religion based on some groups within that single culture.
In case you haven't notice, Christians can [potentially] be puritans, assholes, and rapists (and so forth) just as readily as anyone. Moreover, we have muslims already, and we've had them, and they haven't given us more problems than anyone else.
The refugees could be Christian, Muslim, or atheist- what matters is their culture, their upbringing, and their individual character.
In case you haven't notice, most of the refuges aren't causing problems.
The government would be cautious with any [especially young] male refugees from any country. The fact that they have special emphasis to do so here isn't based on the religion of the refugees, but that they come from an oppressive, misogynistic, etc culture.
Male+High-Tension-Refugee+Culture-of-treating-women-as-property plus not wanting to give political rivals ammunition by allowing more incidents to occur = taking at least minimum precautions not to give two cultural groups reasons to clash.
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Thank you for your well reasoned arguments, you saved me a lot of typing. :)
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How exactly is having the police having their hands full on events of violence every week! spread all across the country, not saying the majority is causing problems? Even homosexual refugees are afraid because they get bullied by heterosexual refugees that are young men. Maybe it's different in your country, but not here.
Unless you work in politics, the police or at such a centre, you don't know the exact numbers, i don't know the exact numbers, alot if not even mentioned in the news too because of those politicians as you put it are covering the asses.
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not saying the majority is causing problems
If 50.00001% or more of the refugees (even just of the young male ones) were causing problems, I think we'd have a better idea about it happening.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refugees-migrant-crisis-men-213500
You're talking roughly 2/3rds of about 2 million, and then halving that to get majority.
In other words, roughly 660,000+ form a majority of young males alone, and 1 million+ would form an actual majority.
Them all misbehaving seems like it'd be hard to keep out of the news.
The situation is a mess, but that's due to the high proportion of young males, many presumably without family members immigrating with them, to keep them in check, combined with the factors I mentioned above.
That in no way ought act as a stigma against the remainder of the refugees- and testosterone-filled youth who feel adrift from societal anchors? Those are going to be a problem regardless of secondary factors like religion.
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Fair enough, i am an atheist sort of (i don't believe in the god as from the bible, though i tend to believe there is something).
Not gonna pretend i have much knowledge of other religions, i'll take your point.
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Easily solved. Build a fence in front of the refugee center, blocking the view of the lake and the offending nudists.
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I wonder what drugs people are on who say they are an enrichment for our culture.
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Well that's hardly fair for the nudists. They've been there for over one hundred years, so it shouldn't have been any surprise for the authorities that there are naked people there.
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I never skinny-dipped before, but if I was german I would go to that place, get myself naked and poke in the eye with my penis everyone who tried to take away my freedom because they feel offended.
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Not exactly an issue i'd be on the fence for but still ... if you let your country be flooded
unchecked military age old males you're going to get a lot more than just these obvious "problems".
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Trying to start a flamewar?
I have a feeling that 'article' is light on facts.
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The article is fine, it's just very poorly quoted in the OP. Pull it up and keep reading down. It's a bit light on detail, but it covers the actual elements involved adequately.
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Has there been one so far? Why would i risk a controversial thing that i knew would get some blacklists because it happens when you touch something controversial
For many it's just "another one of those" articles, regardless what you think of the lightness of the facts in this or not.
i always quote the source (as a news article should be) i have not picked out anything that would "prove my case" i just picked the first few alinea's, nothing else. Anyone is free to read the whole article and base their decision on.
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I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how few replies there are so far. Maybe people have finally wised up.
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I don't see the problem here... To me this is typical german bureaucracy.
Those Nudists demanded a fence from their Landkreis (county), and they will get their fence.
But the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Badewesen (association for bathing/waterparks) also pointed out that legally, to advertise their facility with the DGBs name (and probably also be eligible for financial helps for building fences and such), they should also apply to their rules, which clearly state that you have to wear swimwear .
The refugees didn't even have anything to say in this, it's all between the nudists and the county officials, buit I guess people just read what they want to read from this...
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I read a fence was denied?
To "outsiders" we might not understand that german bureaucracy though.
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German source states that they got it
Edit: Your source also has it: "The local authority has said it will construct some sort of screen on the asylum seekers’ side of the lake to prevent residents from gazing upon the nude enthusiasts."
Edit 2: Just like some "outsiders" might not understand us Germans running around naked in public? ;)
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This made it to the dutch news (where i got this from) and there it stated a fence was denied (which they got from Bild) and i also believe another article i read. News sources aren't always 100%. But clear.
If it was warmer here maybe it has some appeal.. :p but no it isn't my thing either but hey if they do it in a place where they don't harm anyone, why not?
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Yeah, never believe what Bild says. They are one of the most biased (and sadly one of, if not the biggest) newspapers in all Germany.
But to me that isn't even the point, since it's more a compromise taken by the county. As long as they ignore the rules of their financial benefactors, they are not eligible to get this fence, but they still got it.
But even if they hadn't got it, there would be nothing wrong with this whole story, because if those weren't refugees (who, again, didn't even complain) but german residents complaining about the sight, the nudists would have probably just been told to apply to the rules or pay for the fence themselves.
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https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/qvEdOBK covers the remainder of the "issue", where they're no longer allowed to skinny-dip.
I sympathize for them, especially for the poorly considered location of the refugee centre, but there's no actual 'bullying' going on.
Rules are finally being enforced, and for the safety of those involved.
It may suck, but once the bureaucracy settled on the location of the centre, there really wasn't any way around it.
And apparently, there may even be a lot less justification for concern than even that: https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/u7DCtrx
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You may want to add to the OP this link from a more serious media outlet which tells the story quite differently. It seems that it is the nudists that simply consider an asylum seekers center "incompatible" with their "culture" which may imply that the story about the 'instructions' they supposedly recieved is fabricated...
https://www.rt.com/news/345984-nudist-colony-refugees-germany/
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Done, but why shouldn't a nudist male or female be allowed to be afraid too after such an event of rape at new years eve (that was in Germany)? Don't read it much as being islamophobic or such, they are just afraid, both sides seem to think it's a clash of culture.
Regardless what both sides think, feel etc. The nudists were there first.
Or like you suggest every "bad" story is just a hoax as you made it in another comment.
I just better close this all together at it does seem too controversial.
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And nudity IN video games? :p (Trying to make a joke to bring in some lightness in it all).
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The birthday-suited members of the Family Sport and Naturist Association Moritzburg in eastern Germany asked for funds to build a fence shielding them from the prying eyes of residents in the new facility.
Instead they got a letter back from authorities saying they would no longer be allowed to skinny dip in the lake that will separate their naked paradise from the new £1.2 million all-male refugee centre.
The nudists claim their starkers way of life - the club near the ancient porcelain manufacturing center of Meissen has been going since 1905 - is being threatened by officials not wanting to offend newcomers.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681783/germany-nudists-cover-up-asylum-seekers-migrant-centre-opens
The whole questioning about the dilemma of the fugitive issue is one thing, but it's when their believes are starting to interfer with ours, we seem to be "accepting" alot of it, while the other way around, they won't make exceptions for example for someone christian, in a muslim land.
Or is this tipping a controversial subject?
[EDIT] another article https://www.rt.com/news/345984-nudist-colony-refugees-germany/
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