Do we need stricter, more specific Community guidelines? π€
in this case nothing was done about the User
how does one really know that? maybe support contacted them on steam and had a discussion about whatever the issues were. just because someone wasn't suspended doesn't automatically mean that nothing was done. support also cannot comment at all on those types of tickets even if they wanted to, the system simply doesn't allow it. inappropriate itself is also a very broad word. what's inappropriate to one person maybe extremely appropriate to another. so suspending or punishing a user for something like that can be pretty difficult, unless ofc they run rampant and just consider everything inappropriate. --- some people consider cookie monster eating donuts inappropriate cause its not cookies.
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Well their avatar didn't change and they weren't suspended, but that is besides the point. I'm not really asking whether or not what was done in that specific incident is right or wrong, I'm asking if the guidelines need to be changed to clarify to a greater degree what is allowed and what is the punishment. We can't decide what is inappropriate or not, it is up to the site owner to decide that (with feedback from us) and CG needs to tell us that. He needs to tell us if the πͺ monster is allowed or not. There is too much confusion going on Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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the guidelines need a major overhaul, there is certainly no denying that. as long as it remains unclear it is upto the support/mods/smods to decide on a case by case, in which case one mod may think its appropriate and leaves it alone whereas 3 support members feel differently about it and would of handled things differently.
i was actually just mentioning how the callout rule needs an update as well.. technically with the way things are currently worded i don't have to redeem my won games, they just say that i "should" (instead of must), as well as i am allowed to call out anyone i want for anything i want as long as i don't have an issue with said user. these are technicalities that would win inside a court of law, however those are just poorly worded and we know what they really meant by them. inappropriate is a tougher one due to that being a matter of opinion in some cases (obviously some cases are way clearer then others though).
yes though, it's just like referal links and sgtools all over again really until everything inside the guidelines gets corrected as well as the word "guidelines" needs to be changed to "rules", otherwise due to another technicality, there aren't any rules here.
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...as well as i am allowed to call out anyone i want for anything i want as long as i don't have an issue with said user.
That is just silly. Such an interpretation clearly violates the intent of the rule. You are playing games with syntax.
While Support staff (and mostly CG) have been working on updating the FAQ and Guidelines for some time, now, there is general agreement that they need to be kept up to date and as clear as possible. HOWEVER, the idea that they need to be as specific as possible is erroneous. SG Support has always operated on a few basic principles. Some of them are:
- Calmly apply the rules in a reasonable manner.
- When in doubt, consult other Support staff (especially senior staff).
- In "borderline" cases, err on the side of caution or inaction (whichever is more appropriate).
- Private information is not to be made public.
- SG issues should be kept inside SG.
To bog down the rules with specification is to put a straight-jacket on Support and their ability to use both common sense and reason. There is no point in adhering to the "letter of the law" while simultaneously violating the "spirit of the law." That problem is exactly what we have in the U.S. with statutes (i.e. laws). The "letter of the law" has been so exactly defined, and its status so magnified, that the intention of the law is banished and/or violated without consequence. Just as it is a bad idea for the U.S. legal system, it is a bad idea for SteamGifts.
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That is just silly. Such an interpretation clearly violates the intent of the rule.
i completely and utterly agree. that's why the following line was. "those are just poorly worded and we know what they really meant by them".
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Now that we have a lot more support staff I think it should be discussed since it can actually be enforced.
Not really, Support can't resolve User Reports. That's Moderator upwards powah!
On topic I also don't agree with what was being asked in that thread. Personal belief should not be persecuted unless acted upon. No matter how radical or detestable that belief might be. By fighting it you empower it.
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That's exactly what I'm asking, should Support be able to handle/delete/edit comments even when the user gets suspended for them? Right now (to the best of my knowledge) they cannot.
I don't think you understood what exactly I made the thread about. It's not about whether or not anything should be done about those people. This is about whether or not it should be clarified in the guidelines what is allowed and what is done if you break those guidelines. Just to be clear, personal beliefs and freedom of speech do not apply in the case of private forums. CG can decide what is or is not allowed, even if it is your personal belief or whatever.
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Support can't moderate in the forums in general, they can only Suspend someone and only for preset conditions and durations. You can find the permissions here
I did get what you're asking, that's what I'm saying too. Having a deplorable profile should not be as big a deal as it was made and applies on a general basis too. If a user was active in the forum, promoting those beliefs that would be a totally different issue and that should and is punishable. But you can't start just listing topics about that in the guidelines, it just falls under Inappropriate Behavior. Best case scenario they include a bullet point about Hate Speech in there.
And in the same spirit, no, I don't feel comments of that nature should be editted out. It's a good thing being able to do a simple search and find out who you're dealing with.
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By fighting it you empower it.
Not necessarily. It depends on how it's done. Quiet acceptance can be just as bad as trying to fight it through a shouting match. And I've seen several forums go down the rout where because moderators never step in, they become havens for homophobes, racists and other unpleasant people.
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To be fair I haven't experienced that, however I believe what you're referring to is those people actively spewing that sh*t on the forums, and no one batting an eye, right?
That's not what I'm saying above, on the contrary, if that happens it falls under "acted upon" and ofc should be punishable
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Usually it's more subtle than just people going "kill all gays, ban all Muslims" , it starts with people making comments about it that are not overtly racist/homophobic, but rather has an undertone of it, and then it grows from there. There will be the odd "shitspewers" as well, which tends to be the more visible parts, but usually it's not those that are the main force behind the forum changing into something hostile towards certain groups of people.
I can give an example from a gaming forum that I used to visit. I stopped visiting it because the atmosphere started to become really hostile towards Muslims & homosexual people. There were not many of the obvious shit spewers, the change was gradual. When I checked the forum, which was just after Muhammad Ali had died, people were saying things like it was a good thing that he had died (because he was a Muslim), and that was accepted there. The change was gradual, but good grief, the forum is unpleasant these days.
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Most every forum seems to eventually go down that route if moderators are unwilling or not allowed to step in over such matters. I've personally been involved in several that eventually rotted themselves away. Heck, look at what happened to the Neopets forum pretty much immediately after the moderators lost access to their moderating abilities. :X
I've been on some smaller RP-dedicated and Hobby forums that were better at self-management, but as long as you allow new members, eventually any forum is going to nosedive without some very basic moderation.
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Size of the forum is very important. When a forum is small, the community can often self-moderate, but during strong periods of growth, that's when the bad eggs slips in.ΓΆ
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Yeah it's never fun to have to leave a community because of the way it sinks into a cesspit of people who hate everyone who is different from them.
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When the new Support got added, the existing Supports were upgraded to Moderators, so.....yes, they can handle it.
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Why report here when you can report via steam at first?
Steamgifts is not Steam support...
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That's beyond the point. She's talking about SG rules.
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Copying from a browsergame where i was involved as support, in the rules there was Β§4 which worked pretty good, and everyone who created an account agreed on these rules:
Β§4) Code of Conduct
Players are expected to treat other players with respect and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner while playing the game.The game is intended for all people above 12 years old, hence all type of behavior and/or content such as, but not limited to profanity, pornography, extreme politics, xenophobia, unlawful behavior and substances are prohibited.
Examples:It is allowed:
to call a player a noob (novice) and similar respectful taunts.
to blackmail another player for resources, but not for gold or other premium items.It is forbidden:
to violate or harm other players physically or mentally.
to name your alliance(clan) with offensive or inappropriate terms.
to glorify terrorist acts or persons.
to insult players via the in-game communication system.
to post chain letters or spam mail.
to post advertisement links and referrer-links.
to discriminate against players based on, but not limited to their origins, race, religion, creed, sex, disability, age or any relevant category.
Since there where clear rules and examples given, punishment of users who have broken the rules where pretty easy and understandable for everyone involved.
But the main problem is that the accounts where taken from steam, and not created on this site....
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It is allowed to blackmail another player for resources, but not for gold or other premium items.
wtf? As far as I know, blackmail is illegal in many countries.
EDIT: Also, your account here is dependant on your Steam account.
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Blackmail in terms of "i wont attack you city when you send me 100wood" (which is generated over time depending on you lvl of the lumberjack everyone has in his city). Gold is bought with real money, so its excluded ofc.
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But they're open to interpretation. They don't specifically state that it's for in-game stuff.
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since "Resources" are obtained non-monetary only (you cant eet "booster packs" )...
But the rules can have flaws either. Dont saying they are perfect^^ but discussing them in particular doesnt help the original discussion regarding SG tho^^ (no offense :))
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It is allowed:
to blackmail another player for resources, but not for gold or other premium items.
.... WAT?
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It is some sort of a metagame mechanic there.
Another reason to avoid multiplayer games in general, I guess.
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Blackmail in terms of "i wont attack you city when you send me 100wood" (which is generated over time depending on you lvl of the lumberjack everyone has in his city). Gold is bought with real money, so its excluded ofc.
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it is allowed
to call a player a noob (novice) and similar respectful taunts.
Maybe avoid this line, though, given that noob does not, in fact, mean novice- that would be newb. :P
What it basically boils down to is that newbs are new to something, but willing to learn, whereas n00bs are new or really bad at something, but seemingly uninterested in learning, and often act disrespectfully. [>>]
/
to blackmail another player for resources, but not for gold or other premium items.
If you don't givz me all ur gibberwayz, I'll tell everyone that you can't tell newb and noob apart!!!11
Well, not that it wouldn't be.. interesting.. turning P into a metagame currency, but I think there'd be just a bit too much exploitation potential there, so maybe we'll skip this one as well.
Guess it's all "forbiddens" for us, then! :P
it is forbidden
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i was just quoting to give an idea, and doesnt propose to apply all rules on SG, since its of course not possible, hence its a complete different thing.
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Thank you for the examples, yes something along those lines πΈ Steam actually used to moderate profiles a long time ago, I used to get responses for all my reports, something like "thank you for your report, we have flagged the profile" but lately they don't seem to care any more. But, yeah right now SG guidelines actually do mention that users should not have NSFW inappropriate profiles etc. so maybe the report was closed for some other reason Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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I'm just surprised that one guy gets to posts all those NSFW gifs all over this GA and no one cares? -_-
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Yesterday, there was a thread asking about a specific user profile being allowed or not
What thread was that? It seems that SG just imports users and groups from Steam as is, without applying any kind of filtering or moderation. Too bad that Valve can't be bothered to moderate its own user base, or I suspect this chap here [LINK REMOVED] or this bunch of idiots [LINK REMOVED] wouldn't be a thing (yep, I've reported both several times to Steam support already). Anyway, I recently reported a user here for blatant racist remarks, and it is a bit frustrating when your ticket gets closed with a "resolved" and you notice the user you reported frolicking about in the forum with no apparent action taken. If I were evil, I could just keep resubmitting the same report with a casual "doesn't look resolved to me, boss", but I don't know if the mods would appreciate that. Luckily, I'm not that evil. π (<-- I like the Google version of this particular emoji, see attached image. Too bad it can't be forced.)
Currently, with no further explanation given, the implication is that the site administration deems it ok to be a racist and is cool with hate-speech and hate groups. Pretty sure I wouldn't want to hang around here any longer if that were true. So yes, better worded and more comprehensive guidelines/rules are definitely in order.
EDIT: Forgot you asked not to post links to specific profiles, so removed the links. (In case you were wondering, they were both apparent Nazi sympathisers.)
EDIT 2: I actually found the topic you were speaking of. I read it, and it turned out as expected. Surprise, surprise. For the sake of brevity, when it comes to the whole free speech and tolerance debate, especially in regards to hate groups, I'll just link to this essay that I think sums up the issue pretty well:
βWhy wonβt you tolerate my intolerance?β This comes in all sorts of forms: accepting a personβs actively antisocial behavior because itβs just part of being an accepting group of friends; being told that prejudice against Nazis is the same as prejudice against Black people; watching people try to give βequal timeβ to a religious (or irreligious) group whose guiding principle is that everyone must join them or else.
Every one of these examples should raise your suspicions that something isnβt right; that tolerance be damned, one of these things is not like the other. But if you were raised with an intense version of βtolerance is a moral requirement,β then you may feel that this is a thought you should fight off. It isnβt. Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty.
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What if I told you that I've made a user report a long time ago for someone who was 'selling' a pirated/drm-free game on Steam Trades and because of that they got perma-banned from both SG and ST πΊ
As to the User reports being resolved, I just noticed all of mine got marked 'Resolved' as well, I think they're just closing all reports to start completely fresh? π€
I like it! πΏ
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Well, I've still got an outstanding user report for a scammer on ST (filed months ago, way before the refresh). It's still open and hasn't been acted upon in any way. I've actually thought of reporting people I spotted on ST blatantly offering whole accounts (Steam, Origin, Battlenet, Uplay), which violates the subscriber agreements for those services if nothing else, but I didn't because I didn't expect any action to be taken by the mods here. Sad but true. π€ (<-- mind if I borrow this?)
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Emojis are for everyone and anyone, I would be honoured and so happy if you do π€
My point was user report about piracy without really any way to prove it = perma-ban, but blatant hate mongering and inciting = 2 day suspension at worst π€ But, yeah let's not get into that right now π
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I see. Just a quick quip then, if ST were seen to be harbouring/enabling piracy, they could find themselves in legal trouble, whereas the other stuff isn't grounds for a lawsuit. Better shoot it down before it becomes a problem πΊ
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Hmm, okay so let's discuss this completely super hypothetical scenario where someone has a completely NSFW, 18+ avatar and let's say Timmy enters their giveaway and sees their avatar. Could Timmy's mom sue SG for it because there was no NSFW warning or anything when he entered the GA and you only need to be 13 to register on the website π€
Edit: Timmy is 13 btw πΆ
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My guess is that it's similar to how you could hold, say, Facebook accountable for seemingly offensive photographs or comments posted there, so that's also why the current guidelines explicitly mention the thing with the avatar. But I honestly don't know. In any case, the legal arm of a game publisher is probably in a position to cause more headaches than Timmy's mom, especially on a giveaway site for games that potentially raises automatic suspicions in those circles anyway. π€ (<-- getting slowly addicted to this little fella)
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When I see stuff like that, I always wonder how they think such things would work out for them in real life :>.
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It's up to CG to decide in the end if and when to change anything or to confirm that it's going to remain a very hands-off approach with some case-by-case exceptions.
cg already finished the SOPs according to the changelog. The issue is, if you spell out exactly what isn't ok, people will still find a way to modify their behaviors to narrowly escape suspension. If you subscribe to the Steam profile comments of the moderators who keep the comments open, you will see there are users who post complaining about getting suspended for calling out (but they didn't mean it, it was "obliviously" sarcasm), and other "edge cases". Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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The issue is, if you spell out exactly what isn't ok, people will still find a way to modify their behaviors to narrowly escape suspension.
Well, one would hope that the guidelines were comprehensive and explicit enough to leave as little doubt as feasibly possible (with examples to illustrate, if necessary). In any case, I would argue that if a user were deemed to have formally adhered to the letter of a rule but actually broken it in spirit, then appropriate action would be justifiable. I'd hope that whoever ends up moderating such a case is judicious enough to make that distinction.
Despite the potential for abuse in the way you describe, I'd say it's preferable to have clear guidelines to the current state of affairs where no explicit rules are given, and we are left in the dark regarding the actual moderation policies.
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I agree. The standard user doesn't need to know exactly what is allowed and what not, a general idea is enough. But support should have a clearly defined rule set.
That said, I think that SG's rules are often a bit too lax.
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Okay, let's not go into specifics but do the Guidelines need to be changed at all or are they like completely fine as is? π€
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I can't see the emoji, it's just a rectangle :(
I think they're completely fine as is. To use emotionengine's reply
In any case, I would argue that if a user were deemed to have formally adhered to the letter of a rule but actually broken it in spirit, then appropriate action would be justifiable. I'd hope that whoever ends up moderating such a case is judicious enough to make that distinction.
I agree with this. But users will be pissed because moderators may have different interpretations due to cultural differences, etc. There's always going to be a degree of subjectivity when it comes to moderating forum comments. The way I read the rules is: "Don't be a jerk, be respectful" etc. Or more distilled, "Don't attack/accuse other users." That avatar guy that people find offensive didn't attack anyone, for example.
What happens if I call CG a smelly robot? What if I call all robots smelly? Is it the same offence? What if I make my avatar a sign with 'No Smelly Robots' allowed? What if I link an image which is strongly indicative of anti-robotic sentiments?
That would be fine.
Controversial viewpoints are not a valid reason for a suspension.
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everythings good. the problem comes from how everyone interpretes a concept differently than someone else, which flows (as that thread has show) into paranoia and persecutory delusions. address the issues would involve discussing the merits of various thorny and controversial concepts, and being the website private the owners should be the first to exhibit their own views, and whatever they are, they can only cause more problems. we are almost a million here. their decision to not expose themself is reasonable and understandable.
now I dont want to lick asses here but as far as I'm concerned their approach to the matter was morally and ethically correct, non-partisan, as you would expect from a person who plays the role of moderator. they are more righteous and open-minded than many others who think they are.
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It'll be uncomfortable at first, but if we talk about it once we don't need to talk about it ever again π€
... when we get to that, right now I'm just asking if the Guidelines even need to be changed or not, how they are changed is up to CG πΌ If he wants our feedback then, we'll talk some more πΆ
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insults, personal attacks, obsessive behavior, hate speech, inappropriate content (nudity, gore), calling out.
those are pretty specific and could be enforced if support had power to do it on the forums but i guess they are not allowed to do anything, especially when they can't even hide a reply (i'm not even asking to delete or edit comments, just hide and then discuss in the admin forum what to do).
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especially when they can't even hide a reply (i'm not even asking to delete or edit comments,
Wouldn't hiding a reply mean deleting it? Confused
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hidden from the public but visible to mods. also the user that posted it won't be able to edit or delete it.
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The ability to delete posts is something cg and the super mods have. I would demonstrate my magic trick of what they will delete quickly, but I don't want to get suspended.
hidden from the public but visible to mods. also the user that posted it won't be able to edit or delete it.
That could be done coding-wise, but what would be the criteria for it to be hidden?
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Something like "This message is pending moderator review"
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If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, it actually isn't his group and he has nothing to do with it. It's a lot of people completely separate from that person apparently π€¦
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Isn't there a hard limit for blatantly fake GA's before the offending account gets permanently suspended? The limit isn't very high AFAIK, so chances are he'll hit it before he even runs out of his remaining slots.
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Happy Valentines Day, Shanti
Your use of emoji's is tasteful and entertaining.
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i just hit F5 and it was gone, just as expected. for like what? the 5th time?
it's not like anyone would miss that piece of shit in the first place.
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I agree that some clarification would be appreciated, also thanks for the giveaway Shanti :)
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2 days passed, not a single official answer was done T_T
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Yesterday, there was a thread asking about a specific user profile being allowed or not since their User report got marked as resolved which I find the most surprising thing about it, because User reports are usually never answered even if some action was taken (in this case nothing was done about the User). Even weirder is the fact that NSFW or inappropriate Steam avatars are the one thing mentioned on the existing SG guidelines.This has been handled apparentlyI posted about this on the new support announcement before that, so that makes at least 2 people who would like some clarification on this. The other thread got a little messy with people making personal arguments and criticisms but I think that makes it even more important to really elaborate and spell out exactly what is allowed and how are inappropriate remarks/profiles being handled?
What happens if I call CG a smelly robot? What if I call all robots smelly? Is it the same offence? What if I make my avatar a sign with 'No Smelly Robots' allowed? What if I link an image which is strongly indicative of anti-robotic sentiments? Is it based on the judgment of Support or Mods or Super mods?
Should normal Support be allowed to edit/remove comments (right now I think they cannot even if the user gets suspended for the comment in question)?
Do I get the same 2 day suspension for repeated inappropriate posts?You don't, it increases in severity apparentlyNow that we have a lot more support staff I think it should be discussed since it can actually be enforced. It's up to CG to decide in the end if & when to change anything or to confirm that it's going to remain a very hands-off approach with some case-by-case exceptions.
Please do not post specific profiles/comments, and try to stay on the broader topic. π
I tried to hold myself but a few emojis leaked out. Sorry πΏ
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