So recently I was educating my friend about the Marvel event Civil war, and we got into a frank debate about which side was right. She initially sided with Cap while I have and will always support Iron Man in this.

For all of those who don't know what the Super Hero registration act is, I have a feeling it's the "accords" that they mentioned in a few of the Marvel movies, or at least a take on it. But straight from wiki:

<The act requires any person in the United States with superhuman abilities to register with the federal government as a "human weapon of mass destruction," reveal their true identity to the authorities and then undergo proper training. Those who sign also have the option of working for S.H.I.E.L.D., earning a salary and benefits such as those earned by other American civil servants. Characters within the superhero community in the Marvel Universe split into two groups: one advocating the registration as a responsible obligation (Team Iron Man), and the other opposing the law on the grounds that it violates civil liberties and the protection that secret identities provide.(Team Cap)>

So I'm curious to see which side you stand on. Like I said I stand with Iron Man.

8 years ago

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Which side do you fall on?

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Team Cap
Team Iron Man
Potato

bump

8 years ago
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Trailers so far look promising (:

I would say Team Iron Man, because Spidey!

And I never liked Captain 'Murica

8 years ago
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For me it was the issue at hand that played a role or me, rather than my love affair for Iron Man. The idea that teenagers who have powers that are devastating running around and trying to be hero without any idea of how to do the job effectively is like asking for trouble. If we register cars, if we register guns then yes, we should register people who have dangerous abilities that generally puts millions of lives at risk any given day of the week.

8 years ago
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the comics started with a good premise, but, IMO failed to deliver where it mattered.
Maybe the movie will do better?

8 years ago
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Yeah, the premise still intrigues me though. At the very core, i do like when Marvel asks these questions, they might bungle the ensuing comics but at least it makes you think about it for a moment.

8 years ago
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but, unfortunately, I feel they didn't do enough to make you think.

They posed the question, but rather than argue both sides, they immediately cast Iron Man's side as being wrong.

Remember that this was against the backdrop of 9/11 and the Patriot Act, and they could have put more effort into making it an actual debate, or giving good support for Iron Man's side.
not to mention, this went against 40 years' of Iron Man's characterization, including some of his most classic and pivotal storylines

8 years ago
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I know, which was problematic, but I still stood with Iron Man. I thought Captain America was being an idiot, and keep in mind later on I think Cap insisted that Spider Man be trained (Pretty sure it was the ultimate universe not 100% sure). Fat lot of god that did. Given the cataclysmic event that set off the chain reaction in the comics, can we honestly say that they shouldn't be registered and trained? Even if you think it's a civil liberties issue, which I don't. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of heroes are simply costumed vigilantes it's still problematic to have people who are basically human weapons of mass destruction fighting in the streets with no training.

I think the whole thing boiled down to another argument about whether Mutants should be forced to register or not. To which to this day I still say no. Like they basically rehashed the same argument except on a broader scale but it's not the same as mutants for other reasons.

8 years ago
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yeah, see, there are good arguments for both sides. I just wish they played them up a bit more. And there were so many instances of heroes going completely against character such as spiderman revealing his identity on national tv. And don't get me started on how Osborn was suddenly left in control afterwards
I feel that Joe Quesada's tenure in charge has been disastrous in terms of continuity, and marvel for the past decade has been all about milking events for the quick buck, even if it ruins the readership for the future.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for big events, when they're done right. such as Secret Wars I and Age of Apocalypse. And there were some flubs in the past (Secret Wars II, Clone Saga). But I feel that Marvel is now all about the big events. Used to be there'd be a lot of small crossovers, maybe 4-6 issues, which is fine to pick up a few extra issues, and maybe pick up a new title if it interests you enough. And the larger crossovers were fairly isolated (x-crossovers, spiderman crossovers, avengers crossovers) so there was a good chance you were reading those titles already. But now, there'll be maybe 4-6 regular issues, and then a mega crossover that'll take 4 issues of your title, plus a related miniseries, before you've even considered whether you want to read the rest of the story. The events will be dozens of comics (If I recall correctly Itself was over 100) and if you only pick up the core titles you can barely follow it. Not to mention that those core titles can already mean 20-30 issues.

If I were a kid getting into comics today, there's no chance in hell I'd read Marvel. I wouldn't be able to afford to.

8 years ago
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DC has the same problem more or less these days. People like crossover events. Though they don't do it nearly as often at least I don't think they do. I didn't even really understand the last two major story arcs in Marvel. I'm not a hundred percent sure what I'm reading in Marvel Now either. Like Hulk, or the new female thor. But at the same time I am enjoying some of the other comics as well.

8 years ago
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I'm not sure I understand why you would stand on Iron Man's side and point of view but you would not force Mutants to register. Aren't Mutants as dangerous (if not more for most of them) than other Super-powered beings in the Marvel universe ?

8 years ago
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There's a difference between asking a maligned group to register, and face it people loathe mutants, which is problematic given the hate groups that Mutants are forced to deal with on a day to day basis. How many times has the government wanted to create a sentinel program or some religious group gone after the mutants in general. Having a list of every single mutant will lead to lynchings. For a mutant being a mutant is the same thing as the color of your skin. They really are just born that way. And the vast majority of mutants do not have some awesome power. Despite what the X-men will lead you to believe, the people like Jean Grey and Cyclops and Rogue are really just about 1-5% of the mutant population. They aren't super powerful, and they aren't running around trying to save people. Say what you will about the X-men but being untrained was not one of their problems. You want to register mutant criminals in a sex offenders registry list sort of the thing, or the people who break laws or they are terrorists? Yes go ahead and watch them, but registering all mutants when the vast majority of them simply can't be weapons of mass destruction because they're powers are absolutely harmless then that's a problem. They will be lynched, which also reinforces Magneto's talking points. Registering mutants disastrous idea.

Superheroes such as Spider Man and Jessica Jones, Dare Devil, Luke Cage are street level heroes and for the most part vigilantes. Let's not even begin to deal with what having a Frank Castle or a Hulk running around does to the general scenery. So yes. I think if you want to call yourself a superhero you need to register, you need to have a license and be trained how to effectively disarm a threat without collateral damage. Say what you want about the DCEU at the very least they got that part right. When Superheroes brawl in the streets people and buildings get destroyed in the process, and if we insist that police get training, if we insist that people in the military get training to protect us or to go fight in wars or what have you asking a weapon of mass destruction who wants to protect people to do the same. The x-men and any other mutant group would have to register but I'm not for a blanket all mutants must register. I'm for superheroes having to register, if you put on a costume and want to be a vigilante of sorts then you need to be held accountable. If you're just some schmuck with super powers and you want to mind your own business maybe save a cat from a tree or rush into a burning building to rescue that basket of puppies then it's different then having a superhero brawl in downtown Manhattan.

8 years ago*
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The thing is Tony Stark has always been controlling. Even in the new films, it's all about a "the power should be in our hands, we can use it responsibly" thing. It's what leads to Ultron being made.
Hero registration was always right up his alley- remember, this is a rich, entitled sort. He only knows what it's like to have power and wealth and societal influence be on his side. He's also human, not supernatural/mutant/other. He doesn't understand the more complex elements involved, and he feels that with him in charge, nothing could go wrong.

It's all very much to his traditional character, and certainly to his Cinematic Universe character.

Just because he has a 'do what I want' personality, and approves of personal freedoms, doesn't mean he's not also controlling, arrogant, and believing in firm overall structure.


In any case, Cap's concerns proved valid, and the registration act was later repealed. Cap's issue wasn't with the training/management of superbeings (which he's firmly encouraged in the past), but of the forced registration and criminal treatment of them that the overly expansive act allowed for. Add in that the "pro" side did a lot of very sketchy things using the act's broad permissiveness (including brutal kidnapping and I believe even outright murder) and it was a disaster even before the list of identities and powers nearly became compromised.
The problem was never with the sentiment, but with the terrible way it was approached and enforced.
Someone who has always been for-the-people and concerned with their rights and freedoms like Captain America would definitely have had a problem with such oppressive, bigoted, harmful, and constitutionally-violating (right to liberty) legislation, even before the unjust methods of enforcement.
Keep in mind, young girls with the power to change the color of flowers (example) were being brutally kidnapped due to being "weapons of mass destruction", forced to enter a registery, held without representation, forced into unnecessary training, and monitored like a criminal if/when they were released. It ended up being wholly irredeemable by the end of things.
The concerns supporting the act weren't with safety or guidance, they were based in control and prejudice, same as the previous Mutant Registration Act.

8 years ago*
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8 years ago
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I agree, that Iron Man's side was problematic (it all went to hell rather quickly didn't it) but I still stand behind the sentiment of they do need to be held accountable and if you want to be a hero as in put on a costume and go fight crime then you need to register. People who have no desire to be a villain or a superhero shouldn't be forced to register. In theory it really should be like getting a driver's license, you take the x amount of hours of required training you pass a test, you get to be a superhero. You even get a shiny card or badge to prove it.

8 years ago
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Right. And I don't think Cap woulda had problems with that outlook- he's been extremely hard on [eg, the Young Avengers, the Runaways, etc] about needing proper training and so forth. He's certainly not a fan of letting people run out into that world carelessly or recklessly- he cares far too much about who could get hurt, on both sides of the matter. I think he'd have loved the idea of a required training program for superheroes. :P

But clearly, the registration act ended up going well past 'enforcing rules on vigilantes and on high-power super-beings' (nevermind only minimally touching on the 'training to use powers appropriately' bit) and straight into brutal violation of civil liberties.

The thing to remember is, superheroes are already acting as vigilantes, and further legal restrictions can already be placed on them just through expanding anti-vigilante laws.

If the legislation had based solely of vigilantism and high-power threats, and approached it more civilly [I mean, they told Deadpool that if he joined them he could be a bounty hunter and shoot anyone he wanted that didn't join. That gives you an impression of how "awkward" their approach was.] then it likely would have gone through a lot smoother than their "Okay, super-beings are now being registered and processed and will be forcibly managed to that effect, and treated without regard to their expected legal rights."

Nevermind that you don't need to have your secret identity revealed to undergo a mandatory training program, so that association was nonsensical :P

I don't think too many people'd argue that superheroes oughtn't be held accountable to if they want to be treated as anything but vigilantes, and there's a certain expectation of a government taking certain measures to protect its citizens,
At that point, you can argue safety of family and all that as much as you want [and certainly, in a sense even registered superheroes ought be treated like undercover detectives in that regard], but there's at least strong foundational basis for the actions.

But basically establishing the Mutant Registration Act 2.0 (complete with sticking all actual mutants in a relocation camp!) was just... repeating past mistakes, to put it graciously.

Whether Tony was on the 'right' side or not, his arrogance, carelessness, and eagerness to approach the matter forcefully definitely made a complete mess of any merits his side may have had.

8 years ago
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I know, and I think the whole story was rushed. Terrible writing. They should have taken their time building up to Tony going off the deep end. I can see Richards making some of the choices he made, like have it graduate in a way, like something small to something big, show how that one event changed the landscape though various titles. And then maybe let it start bubbling because I can't really see Cap saying no automatically, maybe about the provision about the identities but other than that, he could have worked with the government till he realized that they were doing it the wrong way. Then as things start to get bad he sort of acts as a whistle-blower etc.

But all in all, I like the questions that they ask, I don't like how they handle it. Which is why I'm torn about reading the new Civil War comics when they inevitably come out. The question that they're asking even if I think they're going to bungle it is something I don't have a strong opinion on to some degree. I see both sides of the argument to be valid, But once again there is probably a middle ground to be had.

8 years ago
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8 years ago
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I think that his heart was in the right place, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. Also what's interesting is that I was against any form of mutant registration but as I noted, I felt this was needed. But my reasons for each are different. Also I did like how they sort of handled the X-men in all of this, it's a shame that they aren't part of the MCU because I want that exact same point to be brought up.

8 years ago
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8 years ago*
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Well the X-men basically laughed in Cap's face when he asked them to join him, I would have killed for a scene like that in the movies. They've been fighting it for years and no one else in the superhero community spoke up. So it would be nice to see, that in itself sort of made me turn against Cap. Like he fought in WWII, if anyone should know the horrors of not speaking up when you see something unfair or a group of maligned it's him.

8 years ago
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actually, that's quite realistic if you think about the japanese internment during world war II, or the mccarthy era, or the backlash against rock & roll (let alone the treatment of minorities)

8 years ago
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going to vote on potato for now because I really need to update my movies database (little time available so, no comics)

8 years ago
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I haven't read any of the comics. I love the movies though. I'm not on either side. There's no reason to pick a side :D

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The comics wanted to be a very strong message on the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, and was quite obvious that Stark was very wrong. The child soldier camp, the mandatory SHIELD registration and government work, the concentration camp set in the Negative Zone despite the warnings that it degrades the health of many prisoners, the use of a homicidal uncontrollable cyborg or convicted mass murderers as officially licensed agents to hunt down resistance members… they all tried to tell us that letting US politicians have this power is wrong. The funny part was that in the Marvel Universe, Canada had a similar law for years and it worked because they didn't try to use the superhumans as a dirty wetworks team.

Although it still was nothing compared to what Bendis did at the end of Secret Invasion. :D

8 years ago
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8 years ago*
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That would be beautiful. Deadpool in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Or maybe a Secret Invasion? Or a proper Age of Apocalypse? I don't like the inhumans taking Marvel's place as mutants. I mean I had heard about them years ago, but now? It's like overkill. Fox should basically just do what Sony did and get rid of Bryan Singer.

8 years ago
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I just came here to say that I love you :D
Don't care about stupid marvel DC crap XD

8 years ago
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I <3 you too Zem

8 years ago
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Not familiar with all that, but from what I read in your text:
I love my freedom more than anything, so I would side with Team Cap. Being forced to do things is never a good thing. If it wasn't mandatory to show up I'd probably do it (assuming I had abilities of sorts) out of the feeling of being responsible, but leaving me no choice would drive me in the opposite direction.

8 years ago
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