Last year CDPR promised there would be no downgrade. and as the game started to come out, people started worrying, when seeing leaked copies and such. People (including CDPR?) said comparing youtube videos/streams isn't a far way to compare them.

But now they've finally confirmed that there was a downgrade in this interview here It's a really interesting read, even if you aren't interested in CDPR and their games.
Some of their answers are just plain... weird.
Q: Why didn't you say anything until now?
A: "Frankly speaking because we didn't see it as a problem,"
But a few sentences later "We don't feel good about it," Iwinski adds, "and I treat it very personally." Maybe it was just a weird translation? I don't know.

I don't think the downgrade is the problem for people., I think it's more of the fact that they wouldn't admit it, even worse that they wouldn't until the game was already out.

What do you guys think? This just a mountain being made over a mole hill, or is it something that should feel bad about?

9 years ago*

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Do you still trust CDPR?

View Results
Yes.
Somewhat, but not as much as I did.
Not at all.

Seen this comparison vid between PC and PS4 yet?

Both look very similar. Anyone else think the horse's hair looks better on PS4?.

9 years ago
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Of course they look similar, it´s the same world, same models, same textures...all the same...they develop only once....not twice.
And there will be always small differences, not only between PC and PS4, also different Graphic Chips on the PC-Platform, maybe even different drivers , can make a difference (as on many many games before).

9 years ago
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So... you need a Titan SLI of Titan SLI to reach the ps4 (350/400€) ?

This is definitely a crappy porting, but no one is bitching cause CDPR are cool guys. Nice Job internet.

9 years ago
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What? I play with everything on ultra (except hairworks) on my pc with only 1 GTX970 and run 60fps stable (40-50) with hairworks...

9 years ago
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/sarcasm.

a 970 is an expensive gpu tho
Not everyone has an high-end rig.
On a mid rig it runs like crap, is a fact.

9 years ago
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I think the best course of action is to be vocal about this, but it has to be constructive criticism. I mean CDPR was straight with us before, and to be honest Witcher 3 is still a great game. It's just that they handled the whole thing poorly. If they had communicated clearly that the game is not gonna be looking as good, because they did not have the time to do separate builds it would have been fine. It's clear that they don't think the way they handled it was all right, and want to make it up to the buyers. I'd say lets give them a chance to do that and see what happens.

TL;DR - They messed up, but are feeling sorry about it. We should keep letting them know that it wasn't right and that kind of shit won't fly anymore, but we should refrain from considering them another EA just yet.

9 years ago
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They don't feel sorry. If they were sorry, they wouldn't lie that 2013 trailers will be accessible through Ultra options.

This is just PR sorry, nothing serious or honest about them.

9 years ago
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They have a good track record though, and I don't think one PR mistake should be enough to condemn them. Let's see what they do with all this, if they will really make it up to us, will the expansions suck, will they do it again etc. I mean, we should be suspect of what they are doing, but then again - we always should have been.

What I'm saying is - I think we should see if they will be able to redeem themselves, make things straight- if any company is likely to do such a thing, it's probably them.

And if they won't? To hell with them then. But I don't think we should cross them out completely yet.

9 years ago
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Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me :)

9 years ago
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Exactly. I mean, you are agreeing with me here, right? We don't get fooled the second time. We wait and see what they will do. We don't pre-order their stuff (which we never should have done btw.). We see how they handle this, and if it's gonna be OK, then we buy their stuff.

9 years ago
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Yup, I agree. They should get yellow card, but lets give them one more game before red (if you know your soccer/football-for-rest-of-world).

9 years ago*
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I never got the pre-order concept.
The day pre-orders were made real was a sad day for consumers. I've yet to pre-order a single game... ever.
Been a gamer for almost 30 years now. Don't intend to change that policy.

The rest i've pretty much agreed already in my previous post. :)

9 years ago
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Come on people, it's just graphics. They didn't downgrade the gameplay or story.

9 years ago
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Today, AAA-developers lie about downgrading graphics.
What makes you think tomorrow, they won't lie about downgrading story or gameplay (not that it doesn't happen already, so many times developers lie about features)?

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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That's been happening for years.

Which doesn't make it any better.
Should actually just emphasize exactly how much consumers have put up with and how poorly consumers themselves have dealt with past happenings:

"Oh, let's just take it and roll over."

Not the way to go, imo. It's one thing to blow it out of proportion, another one entirely to plainly ignore it.

9 years ago
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The graphics can directly impact how the story is received and enjoyed. A graphical downgrade impacts the quality of the game as a whole. The story could be great, but that's what books are for. A video game is meant to bring it to life in an interactive and entertaining way. When the graphics are downgraded, the entire quality and integrity of the game suffers.

Anyway, the problem with the downgrade is more the rationale behind it (budget limitations due to pandering to console users) and the decisions CDPR made during development (graphically downgrading, lying about the downgrade, choosing to cater to consoles, etc.).

9 years ago
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Problem solved. If you don't throw your money at developers based on promises, you won't get burned. If gaming industry won't get more honest, then you should be more careful. Sorry for putting it a little harsh way, but if your hype gets the worst of you and then you complain a lot, it's your problem. There is nothing shameful about waiting a day, or a week after release to see if it's that good as they promised.
For people who are into business studies: preorder is a high-risk high-reward(?) behaviour. You get the preorder bonuses (The reward above the game) , but you risk you money on a product you don't know how will end up. If you go into a high reward- high risk deal, you should be aware of the possible outcomes and face it.

View attached image.
9 years ago
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Yep! Funny are those 10% pre-order-discounts, that last a few days to weeks.We all know, after the first sales, there is always a higher discount to catch the next round of buyers.
Also many games nowadays aren't really finished on release, to many bugs, glitches, not working servers, sometimes driver-problems and so on....so if I a wait for a release e.g. two years....i can also wait 2 years and 8 weeks, to get a nice discount and most bugs are gone....or I know the game is not worth to buy it.

9 years ago
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There was never a time when games were not full of bugs or glitches. Probably the first generation ones were clear due to their simplicity, but after the first console was released, games became much more code-intensive. At least now games can be patched.

9 years ago
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hey i´m old frog, there was a time games had far less horrible bugs on first release

9 years ago
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They weren't all bug free... super maro has that bug that puts u into stage 2-3 or 4 ... and sometimes i got stuck in a brick lol , but anyway , games were more curated back then because if they had a bug... it was in the game and that's it. No patches. You would have to make a NEW copy of the game screwing all the other buyer of the older copies that had that bug... so even what i said now it's why it is what it is atm ... glitches and bugs are easily fixed with patches.. but back in the days they couldn't do such a thing ...

9 years ago
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Don't know how long you've been around, but i've been playing games for almost 30 years now.
So sorry, but not true. There have been times with more and times with less bugs, honestly.

Thing is, there was a time bugs were more a result of less than ideal tools to work with in an industry that only a handful of people that could make it in said industry. The knowledge was also sub-par compared to nowadays. They were for the most part self-taught pioneers, with a formal training that was getting outdated pretty fast. As far as i'm concerned, i'm way more forgiving of the existing bugs on games made by pioneering struggling developers when there was almost no alternative. Not because they didn't care, but they had no standards to hold themselves to, because guess what? They were setting it.

As time progressed, so did said tools, along with said knowledge / information. So did games... to a point in time, considering the industry had grown enough to allow for more diversity, among many other positive things.
People strived to do their best, because obviously consumers would go for the best products and game developers were 9 out of 10 times people who were really passionate about it, there was almost no corporate behaviour.

Then add corporate growth, consumerism, kids getting a hold of mom and dad's credit card, nostalgia, history, etc., into the mix (there can be no nostalgia concerning the very first games launched, because they're the first for a reason) and consumers that will eat anything up, because "Oh, it's the sequel to the sequel of the franchise i've been playing and i've loved every one of it, and i don't care if it sucks".

I think we all know what happened next.

Cannot stress this enough though, once again... i'm not trying to make this particular CDPR blunder more than it is. I just wholeheartedly disagree that this should be completely ignored.

9 years ago
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Hehe :P

9 years ago
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Instead of giving interviews about the graphics they should be working their fingers to the fucking bone on a patch.

9 years ago
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surely, it's always an option to release a graphics overhaul as a paid dlc :P

9 years ago
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they are doing just that (but not everyone on a company is a coder)...

9 years ago
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Guess they where 'doing just that' coz ver 1.03 update is out now.

9 years ago
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It actually happens with many games. 3 years before they show an amazing gameplay trailer but it ends up beign downgraded. I think it happened the same with GTA V.

9 years ago
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I don't think so.. GTA always looked mediocre :D

9 years ago
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They'll ALWAYS do downgrades. When you start working on the game, you try to make it look as good as possible. Later they are testing it and to make it work on many configurations, they have to downgrade the graphics.

"Why don't make it worse in the beginning?" - cause downgrade is much easier to do than upgrade.

9 years ago
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If anything, here's another reason not to preorder.
Like others said, I don't care much for the downgrade, but they should have been upfront about it.

9 years ago
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One thing is for sure, people got overhyped for a game that isn't even special. The first two games weren't even good, decent at most. I still try to understand why this got so overhyped, as if it is a TES game or Crysis or whatever.

9 years ago
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So you played it, then?

9 years ago
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It's overhyped just because you don't like it? IMO Witcher games are great.

9 years ago
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Says the one with an Assassin's Creed Avatar. (´• ω •`)

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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+Infinity

9 years ago
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I believe all people new it will be Downgraded to some level, So I did not expect what they showed on the videos, and personally I still find the graphics pretty amazing

9 years ago
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I made a game once. While developing i finished one stage and i showed it to friends because it was looking gorgeous. They liked it. Then i started to create another stage but i discovered that i couldn't hold the way i was making it because of that game started to work shitty enough to piss every player that would play it. Simply code and whole system couldn't handle it. I got stuck. I tried almost everything but it didn't worked. The only way was to change the first stage a bit to fit it into the new, better in many terms system. Just a small part of it was changed while maintaining the whole sense/look that it had before. I was glad that i resolved this big problem without sacrificing too much while gaining way more stable and better optimized gameplay. Game was great as before but only with some minor changes. But it wasn't the same part of game as before in the eyes of the others. They just started to bitching about everything and didn't liked me, telling that i ruined a perfect game. Probably just for fun of them. They said that i lied to them when i showed, back then, amazing game that they were hoping for as i already knew that i'll deliberately downgrade it! Now nobody likes me anymore even if i made such a great game.

(No. Just interpretation of reality)

9 years ago*
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Clown? Bear? Are you there?

9 years ago
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I am here, my hands are just busy with facepalming after basically every single comment.

9 years ago
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You're gonna wake up looking like you were beaten.

9 years ago
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Yeah. :/

9 years ago
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From what I've seen graphics look amazing so who the hell cares? Not to mention only probably like 5% of all gamers worldwide could run the game on FULL everything in the highest possible resolution.

9 years ago
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Problem isn't the downgrade itself, the problem is that they stayed quiet when they previously said there wouldn't be any. Majority of this backlash would've been avoided if they stepped up and told about it that they couldn't make two different builds in reasonable time so they had to resort to this.

9 years ago
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I guess. No company is perfect though. CDP is still great and very player-friendly.

9 years ago
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And they will only remain so for as long as we don't take similar BS as this one. ;)
Just have a look at all the companies that were once amazing, people put them on a pedestal and they turned to crap. ;)

I know some people will laugh, i can't stand them for all sorts of reasons (not all of them the most common voiced), but there was a time i looked up to Ubisoft.
No joke. Needless to say that was many, many, many moons ago.. ;)

9 years ago
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There are two kinds of people though. First kind always tries to find faults in everything and everyone and once they do they have an "excuse" to talk shit about them. Second kind reads news and looks at the whole picture while remaining objective. They don't want to hate on something or someone just for the sake of doing that.

I think you can agree with me that there are people who blindly hate on stuff (reasons aside, to feel better about themselves, because they are bitter etc.) and there are people who can point out good and the bad and then objectively say what they think on the subject presenting both good and the bad and the result/opinion. This can be seen on YouTube videos very well, blind hate and people who have something interesting to say.

I'm not saying you belong to the first group. I'm quite convinced that you belong to the second one but there are many "haters" on the internet and that's a fact.

9 years ago
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I do agree with you 100% on the take about certain people that we can refer to as nitpicky haters who complain for the sake of complaining, hands down.
Which is why i was careful in all my posts not to board the hate-bandwagon, and merely stated they shouldn't get a total pass. And why, like i said in another post i voted for Somewhat, but not as much as I did.

Imo, it's a stain, no matter how people go about it, but not a total mud-soaking.
Or paraphrasing someone else's post, they get a yellow card, as far as i'm concerned, not a red one. ;)

9 years ago
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Aye, makes sense :)

9 years ago
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The problem is also the downgrade. Now, it looks worse because of it, all to pander to console users. It's a problem on both fronts, and it makes for a terrible blemish on CDPR's reputation.

9 years ago
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Its sucks, when devs not support old machines. Of course, I still cant launch it, even game was downgraded (my pc reach 7 years point). So no run = no buy (I will be pre-order game for sure, if can launch it) And I back to GTA V, this game I can run without problem, tnx Rockstar for support crappy pc and no tnx for CDPR

9 years ago
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Comparing a 2 year old game to new release...

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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Not to be picky, but how can a Witcher 3 (a game) confirm a downgrade? :D: Either Witcher 3 devs confirm downgrade or Dowgrade is confirmed for Witcher 3 ;p

9 years ago
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You lil bugger. ;p

I'll fix just for you. lol

9 years ago
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and wrong again :D: "devs" is plural so either devs confirm or dev confirms

:D:

9 years ago
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Have a weak pc - be whining about downgrade
Have a mid-range pc - be whining about bad optimization and downgrade
Have a high-end pc - be whining about "massive" downgrade when you still cannot run game on ultra with 60fps
So... maybe upgrade this time? Minimal requirements like gtx 960 + 16GB + i7 4790 just to run game on low-mid? No one could run it even on high-medium but everyone would be happy because game looks like on video? And are you sure that no one would whine about how the game is bad optimized and why they couldn't lower the quality so everyone would play?
Hypocrisy.

9 years ago
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You're totally right but I can play it on my system on ultra with only the hair effects turned off at 50fps on a computer I built in 2012 with an i5 and 8gb of ram so I don't see how anyone with a high-end PC can't run this at 60fps on ultra. The only upgrade I've done since then was the 970 GTX I bought a month ago.

9 years ago
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Me too (in the terms of "high-end pc") but i'm often seeing such bullshit everywhere.

9 years ago
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It seems like people don't know what a high-end PC is :)

9 years ago
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Your argument is vacuous. People are upset because the game's graphical beauty was deliberately limited in favor of pandering to console users. It doesn't matter if any of them could run it, or if they have too powerful a rig and can run it too easily. The matter is that there was a downgrade and the game is worse for it. This isn't hypocrisy, and I suspect you don't know what that word means.

9 years ago
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I would say that you are right if that downgraded game flew on high end pcs with hundreds of fps not with maybe 60-75 at best. That means if the witcher 3 had better graphics than this, sli would be required to run on minimum.

9 years ago
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I don't get what you mean here. A downgrade can still exist even if the downgraded product requires the best the market has to offer to experience it.

9 years ago
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So downgrade from "unreachable" to "very high/ultra" is bad because downgrade is still downgrade no matter how much it improves?
All i meant that now you are already required to buy Titan X just to play with everything on in slighty higher resolution than 1080p and game works good but almost reaching limits of graphic card. What would happen if they didn't optimized/downgraded game? It would fucking burn our pcs if you would not have sli!

They did changes in graphics because of how it worked on current GPUs and what customers are capable of.
Simple example (random, yet illustrative numbers):
Downgraded Ultra - 45fps
Ultra (like on E3) - 14fps
Medium (similar to current/downgraded ultra) - 35fps
Low - 45fps

What would you choose? Who could afford for a 2 GPUs that costs $1300 each just to play game on ultra and who could spend at least $470 on gpu to play on low?

9 years ago*
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No, not "unreachable". It can be reached, and usually by the dedicated gamers who served as their userbase the past two games. Anyway, having a powerful maximum settings doesn't preclude lower-settings options. That's absurd. You can develop a game whose low settings accommodate for low-end PC users while still having ultra settings which push the limits of the best, most expensive ones.

The downgrade doesn't magically make it easier for other to play the game. It doesn't lower the bottom performance threshold; it lowers the top one. The low-end performance threshold still wouldn't have changed had there been two builds. It would have if there was only one and consoles were excluded, since consoles limit the performance thresholds. The downgrade means the top performance threshold—the "very high/ultra" settings—were downgraded, not necessarily the whole build. The whole build was downgraded, however, due to console limitations (to increase sales) and platform unification (caused by budget limitations after catering to consoles). Had it been exclusively a PC build, it could have been made to allow low-end PCs and the higher-end ones.

Anyway, this entire point is fallacious and misses the point. A game could be downgraded to let more users play it with less expensive hardware. This same argument could be used to justify rendering the game into 8-bit graphics so that even computers from the '90s could play it. What people want is a versatile game that most people can play with a multitude of graphical settings. This way, low-end PC users could play the game at the lowest settings and the more expensive rigs can enjoy the game in all its maximum settings. Naturally, outdated or old systems will be left behind, which may include potato computers running on a $5 graphics card and no fans. That's how technology works, and those who don't keep up are left behind.

If I could upgrade my PC so that it could play games (not just Witcher 3 better), then I would. Who wouldn't? If I couldn't, I'd hope tht the game could be run on my current rig. If it can't, then I'll miss out until I catch up with the times. Right now, I'm in that latter department. I have a $30 GPU and I can't even run Witcher 2 at more than 5–10 FPS. If I could get a better computer, however, I would.

9 years ago
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I agree. Downgrade puts top lower while low is as low as it was before. But here was "Optimization". As you heard they gave up on very demanding dynamic global lighting because that didn't worked well on lower gpus. What don't you understand in that? They changed few systems to make sure that game will go on older hardware. Not only moved the line from ultra to high deleting/disabling many great looking filters, replacing models with worse and lowering texture quality because - hell why not. They changed everything from up to down.

You know that in mid 90's people were able to make games looking like these from 2005-2007? They could produce them but no one would be able to play them. But the fact is that it was possible.
If you set top too high the bottom line will be also higher. The only way to attain the evenness is to produce for example 3 different versions of game with 3 sets of textures, with 3 sets of AI, with 3 versions of physic engine, 3 versions of rendering engine with 3 sets of models and 3 sets of world map. Then you have to provide every 3 copies to every player who bought game. It's like making 3 different games from beginning. It's not so simple to make it work for people with computers from 2005-2009 and at the same time set the highest setting out of reach for current or maybe even next generation. If current computers are not able to reach minimum you should rethink everything and find a compromise.

9 years ago*
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"Optimization" is a very nebulous term with no clear definition or meaning, so it's difficult to discuss it without first defining it. Usually, optimization refers to the changes made to a game when porting it from one platform to another. For example, GTA IV and V were optimized for PC after being ported from their console builds. When it comes to adjusting the settings by the player, optimization is changing those settings to perform optimally given the player's PC build and play style.

Downgrading an entire build could be described as optimization if it is changed to optimally perform under a given build. The problem with describing this as optimization, however, is that is blanket changes which affect how everyone experiences the game rather than a target demographic (in the case of porting) or by the player (in the case of settings adjustment). What CDPR did isn't really optimization, in my opinion, since it affected the entire build and was done in order to lower the bottom performance threshold.

I believe that this is a good decision if and only if it does not impact how the game performs at different settings or thresholds. What CDPR did, however, was downgrade the entire build across the board. This is a problem because it negatively impacts all users just to cater to low-end users. CDPR should have expanded both thresholds, not shift it down. That's about as close to a downgrade as you can get when it comes to game development.

Their reasoning for this downgrade was budget concerns, and the main threat to the budget was two builds. The second build was for console users, one that was deliberately lower quality so as to fit within the performance limitations of consoles. Instead of simply dropping the console build (which they expected would increase sales) or expanding the budget (which they could have given the increased sales of a console build), they chose platform unification and worked on a single build which could be played on all platforms. As a result, the PC build was subject to the same limitations as the console build, and the quality for PC users suffered in favor of maximizing sales for CDPR.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was only one build for GTA IV and V, as well. When it was ported, added development went into stripping down the limitations and rebuilding it to perform better on the next platform. The result wasn't as good as a separate build per se, but that could be chocked up to a lack of development time and effort. In these circumstances, however, the port was an upgrade from one limited platform to another platform which did not possess those limitations. Had CDPR started with a PC build and stripped it to work within the limitations of consoles during a port, it would have been far easier, since it was being downgraded rather than upgraded. It would have been less work and less time, and the sales from the original release would have covered whatever budget was needed for development. That's what they did with The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings, and that's what they could have done here. Instead, they chose to universally downgrade and fuck over PC users in the process.

Yes, two builds would have been difficult, since it would have been essentially developing two copies of the game along different parameters. However, it could have been done and if it couldn't, I believe CDPR should have excluded consoles and only port it later, after the wildly successful sales on PC. I believe it could have been done, though, had they expanded the budget. During development, the team could have used assets and work from one build to improve the other, resulting in a collaborative effort which would have eased the difficulty of two separate builds. In the end, it wouldn't have been two different games, but the same games with different settings. CDPR chose the least difficult and least expensive path to maximize profits. They may be a business and that may be expected of a business (even one with as good a reputation as CDPR), but that doesn't mean the customers should accept it.

9 years ago*
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It downgraded like Watch Dogs did,but atleast its much better than Uplay.
Basically almost every AAA game with beatiful graphics gets downgraded at 1 point.

9 years ago
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It looks great, some people just have no life and want to complain about stuff that doesn't matter.

9 years ago
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Glad I wasn't hyped for the game. Sucks for its fans :-/

9 years ago
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Why? It's still a good game.

9 years ago
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Why do you think? A graphical downgrade means a less enjoyable experience from a graphical level. It will be less beautiful and less immersive as a result of the limitations. Nobody (at least, I'm not) is saying the game isn't a "good game". What we are saying, however, is that the downgrade is upsetting because CDPR could have done better. Instead, budget limitations as a result of pandering to console users dashed our hopes of a graphical beauty.

9 years ago
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Not to be that guy, but unless you have like multiple Titans, you probably wouldn't be missing out on much anyways. Just saying.

The biggest problem with the company was that it was not forthright and honest. Graphically, most people wouldn't even be able to play the game (even if it wasn't downgraded). Hell, they can't even take advantage of Ultra now.

9 years ago
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And what is your rationale for that assertion?

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if most people wouldn't be able to play the game. I can't even run the second game, let alone this one. I believe the arguments still stand that the downgrade was a bad decision, though.

9 years ago
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My point is a lot of people complaining are the same people who would have NOT benefited if the game wasn't downgraded. Not saying it makes what the company did an ok thing to do, just stating a fact.

9 years ago
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Well yes, the downgrade benefited some people. Then again, like I've argued above, it would benefit a lot of people to render the graphics 8-bit, top-down, and capable of running on PCs from the '90s. Increasing the number and demographics of people who can and will play a game can be good, but not at the cost of it's appeal and quality for those who can run it on the highest settings. Whatever benefits the downgrade gave arguably pale in comparison to the drawbacks it has placed on the game. That's my opinion, at least.

9 years ago
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I guess we can still try to justify it. I mean the number of console players is probably higher then the PC gamers. Then there are PC gamers that don't care about the graphics. So that is a relatively small group of people left- and let's face it, if you are doing such a big game you need the money from the console market. And it's not that the game looks horrible now - it still seems to be the best looking game this year (although I may be wrong, I don't pay much attention to that stuff). So again. you are upsetting a relatively small group lowering the bar a bit. Not that is a really cool thing, but I think it is at least more understandable when you look at it that way.

Anyway, that is easier to swallow then the fact that they weren't exactly frank with the nature of the changes they made.

Edit: I just want to make sure my point is clear. If you go out and say "listen we will make the game look a bit worse to make more people be able to play it - we don't have the funds to make 2 versions" then people probably won't be as angry. If you are evasive about it then a lot more people are gonna be disappointed.

9 years ago*
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Maybe so, but PC purchases were the majority of sales for the first two installments. The Witcher series has always been predominantly a PC game, and usually the consoles received ports of the PC build. There may be large fanbase for Witcher among console users, and this fanbase may even outnumber its PC counterparts. Your argument relies on this assumption, though, and it is one I do not believe is true.

Anyway, even if it is true, it still does not justify their decision. CDPR could have still gotten the sales they wanted by porting a PC build to consoles after release, like they did with W2, and this could have arguably increased their sales by satisfying PC users with a graphically outstanding game, which in turn would set the expectations of console users for the port to be similarly as beautiful (even though it wouldn't be). This would have been a more laborious route, but it would have paid off far greater and wouldn't have marred CDPR's reputation among its primary consumer demographic (PC users).

As far as I'm concerned, and like I explained above, CDPR took the easiest route and compromised on game quality in order to maximize initial sales. In the process, they fucked over the majority of consumers. Even if it is not the majority, the argument still stands because I don't see any reason to actually downgrade in the way they did.

I don't know who's to blame. Maybe it isn't the developers, but the project managers. Perhaps it's the PR department or the investors. Regardless, I don't think they made a good decision with platform unification and downgrading.

9 years ago
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In these circumstances, however, the port was an upgrade from one limited platform to another platform which did not possess those limitations. Had CDPR started with a PC build and stripped it to work within the limitations of consoles during a port, it would have been far easier, since it was being downgraded rather than upgraded.

If I'm not mistaken it is actually harder to downgrade. Isn't that why they scrapped the progress from the "trailer build" and started downgrading it?

Also Witcher 3 sold more copies in preorders than Witcher 2 sold in a year. You think those were all PC gamers? In fact many people may have bought the console version now, because they can't afford to upgrade their rig. You say they should have enlarged the budget - yet they say they didn't have enough money. Harsh truth is - if you don't sell on consoles at the same time as PC it's really hard to get those big budgets.

Still, we don't have exact numbers of the PC vs console fanbase their budget etc. so all of this is guesswork. The bottom line is - I'm not saying that what they did it is a good thing, but the downgrade isn't really big. If they were really upfront about it, then It wouldn't be as big of a deal - that is my main point.

9 years ago*
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I wouldn't base the difficulty of the projects on CDPR's decisions. You have to compare what is required to upgrade or downgrade. To upgrade, you have to design more detailed models and assets, improve the quality of the animations and graphics which were otherwise limited by the console build, improve how AI functions in more crowded settings and over longer distances (police in GTA V, for example, had less sophisticated AI and player interactivity when compared to previous, PC-built games), and potentially change how the game is rendered. Additionally, if it is an upgrade to PC, one has to make sure the game is properly optimized for numerous GPUs and hardware capacities, and one has to test the performance on these various rigs to ensure they properly render.

When you downgrade, you strip away this complexity, lower the graphical settings (which may include less-detailed model designs), and only have to optimize it for proper compatibility and rendering on the console to which you're porting. This is because unlike PCs, consoles are prebuilt and non-customizable. You only have to build for one platform variation rather than many. I don't see any reason why downgrading would be more difficult than upgrading. It doesn't even make sense. Doesn't improving the quality of something require additional work, skill, and detail? That's kind of what defines quality and differentiates high quality from lower quality.

You think those where all PC gamers?

The majority were probably PC purchases. Steam and GOG are major players in sales, especially PC sales, and PC sales have outnumbered console sales for every Witcher game thus far. PC gaming is also a growing field with PC gamers outnumbering any single console demographic. Only in total number of console users comprising every non-PC console do they outnumber PC users, but that is a very unfair comparison (and this isn't completely true these days, anyway). Nevertheless, the PC gaming market is roughly twice the size of the console gaming market in every respect. It has more releases, more games, more sales, and more developers working on PC games. Console sales are a significant boon, but it isn't worth it when you have to sacrifice reputation and performance among PC users. Seeing as PC users the dominant demographic in gaming with nearly a billion members, fucking them over isn't a good idea.

Harsh truth is - if you don't sell on consoles at the same time as PC it's really hard to get those big budgets.

Says who? Where is your evidence for this? Historically, more big-sellers are on consoles, but recently those games are being ported over to PC anyway, with those which aren't being exclusives nobody but the console they are excluded to like (if even them). Those which aren't are often emulated on PC (especially retro games). In terms of budget, there are still some console games which costed a lot (Destiny comes to mind). In terms of sales, however, PC sales typically outscore console sales, and sales are what matters. Budget is your investment. If your sales don't perform proportionally as well, then it wasn't a good investment. Destiny is one example of this.

The downgrade is big enough to discuss and criticize, so regardless of whether it fundamentally changed the game, it's nevertheless going to be a topic (as it should be).

9 years ago*
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They would not have been able to finish the game on time if they were to do separate builds for different platforms simultaneously, since you have to test those 3 different builds independently. I've read it in a Polish article, so I guess that is of little value to you, but still.

Of course you then make an argument that they should do a PC version first and wait with the other. However, even if downgrading something from PC to console is easier (and I don't know if its the case) they did not have as many resources to do so. They say this here

"If the consoles are not involved there is no Witcher 3 as it is," answers Marcin Iwinski, definitively. "We can lay it out that simply. We just cannot afford it, because consoles allow us to go higher in terms of the possible or achievable sales; have a higher budget for the game, and invest it all into developing this huge, gigantic world.
"Developing only for the PC: yes, probably we could get more [in terms of graphics] as there would be nothing else - they would be so focused, like if we would develop only on Xbox One or PlayStation 4. But then we cannot afford such a game."

It makes sense, right?

I mean even if the PC market is huge, not every PC gamer is gonna buy the Witcher. And since this is the biggest game they did, they needed extra sales boost from consoles to make it. Pretty much everything you suggest costs money- and that is what they don't have. Actually, when you read the whole article it seems that they simply figured out that they can't afford to make the game as good as they wanted to. And my point is - I think it would have been fine, if they were to communicate it clearly. I mean look at this thread even. They wouldn't piss off the PC market, since many people defend them even now. The guys from CDPR in this interview seem baffled that this is even called a downgrade - they say they didn't consider it as such, and frankly it really looks minute, and they improved some stuff from that older build as well.

What I am getting at is that probably someone from PR screwed up, and the way they handled braking the news on the final quality of their product was poor. People would probably have forgiven them a couple of smoke effects if it meant that the game would not be made otherwise.

It's harsh when PC games suffer because of console, but I really think they did the best they could in their situation - game still looks awesome and they were able to make it. It's just that they communicated with us poorly - and that is the main thing that is wrong here - that's my main point.

9 years ago
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What defines "on time"? W3 was delayed before, and it could be delayed again. GTA V was delayed multiple times, including during its port. The impatience of the gamers isn't particularly important, since they'll of course want the game as soon as possible. If "on time" means with respect to the release date, then the date shouldn't have been given prematurely, since delays can then appear negatively. If no date is given, however, then development could continue for however long without any concerns. Regardless of whether a date was given, though, the gamers would prefer a well-designed game they could enjoy without any complaints rather than a rushed product with severe flaws.

Some of the greatest games were ruined by being rushed. The only people to blame for the rushing are the developers or publishers themselves. I don't believe W3 should have been rushed, and I don't consider being "on time" to be a valid concern if the due date was set by them. They decided that, so they placed the limitation. Rather than continuing with poor decisions which would take away from the product's quality, however, CDPR could have simply delayed it or admitted the due date was not enough time.

Where is this third build coming from? I don't see why there needs to be three builds. Both XBOX One and PlayStation 4 could have been confined to a single build since they posed similar limitations and platform unification between them wouldn't seriously impact development. I doubt the two builds would have been much different at all, anyway, so they would have effectively been a single build with added optimization.

The problem is with unifying the consoles build(s) with a PC one, since PC is an entirely different platform that poses far greater challenges. There is the concern of customized and varied hardware (something prebuilt machines like consoles do not have) as well as the lack of any limitations posed by the platform. The only limitations are on the user side based on their systems, so the onus would be on them to be able to play the game. There would be the added challenge of operating system optimization (I don't think OS unification is feasible, if even possible), but since the vast majority of PC users use Windows (and Macintosh computers typically don't have the power to run those sort of games), a Windows build is all that's really necessary.

The problem of platform unification in this particular case is that it unified console and PC platforms under a single build. Platform unification can be fine if it's a unification of console platforms, since they pose similar challenges. PC is an entirely different challenge, however, so any platform unification would cause the PC demographic to be cheated out of a quality game. Platform unification relies on building for the lowest common denominator (i.e., the weakest platform being unified), so PCs—being at the top by a wide margin—will always be thrown under the bus if it is included in the unification.

I don't agree with Iwinski's statements regarding achievable sales. I think he's trying to justify the decision after the fact, since it's too late to change it now and admitting they fucked up wouldn't look too good on their part. Had they built solely for PC, the sales from that alone would be tremendous. It would have received even higher critical acclaim and solidified it's place as among the top three games of the year (GOTY). The publicity it would have received from satisfied PC users, along with all the videos and livestreams which would follow suit, would boost the interest among the console demographics.

Once a console port would be announced, a similar craze of hype and excitement would ensue among console demographics. After release, the sales would have been the same as they projected anyway, except it would benefit from the added publicity and workmanship displayed in the PC build. Unless Iwinski elaborated and expounded on the issue, and he or another broke it down in detail, I seriously doubt that CDPR wouldn't have received the same (if not greater) sales on both PC and console as they did and still do now had they taken the route of porting a PC build to consoles. In doing so, they would have also satisfied their PC customers, validate their reputation as outstanding developers, and prevent all this controversy from occurring. I believe it was a poor development decision on behalf of CDPR to unify the PC build with a console one and to release all three at once as a multiplatform game and I wouldn't be surprised if, years later, they state just that.

I mean even if the PC market is huge, not every PC gamer is gonna buy the Witcher.

The same applies to the console market, except it's only half the size of the PC gamer market.

Pretty much everything you suggest costs money- and that is what they don't have. Actually, when you read the whole article ... they improved some stuff from that older build as well.

I did read the entire article. They may have not had the budget, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have enlarged their budget. There isn't any information or evidence that they couldn't, especially after they showcased their work. Even if they could not and it's true that they couldn't afford a PC build, they should have built exclusively for consoles and used the sales to upgrade via a PC port. It would have been more expensive and more difficult than a downgrade, but it may have been a better tactic.

Even if they didn't have the budget, they should have waited until they could afford proper game development. In downgrading, they made an irreversible decision which will stick to their name for years to come. The only way they could redeem from this is to release a PC patch that completely reforms the game and makes up for all the downgrades. This would essentially be another build anyway, though, and it's unlikely that they will release it free of charge. It would be paid DLC, and that would only make them look worse.

I disagree that the changes are "minute". Comparing the builds will show that a lot of stuff was removed or limited to ensure it worked for XBOX One and PlayStation 4. We have nothing to compare the current product with the potential product had it not been downgraded except for the changelog between the builds and the trailer footage they showed during the big reveal. Given the limitations that consoles pose on game development alone, however, I find it absurd to assume the product wouldn't have been significantly different graphically., since the limitations imposed by consoles wouldn't have been present. That's the entire idea of a "downgrade" here. They did improve some stuff from the older build, but that could have easily carried over. I'm not advocating for the old build to return as-is, but that they should have continued development on that build rather than starting a new one that would work on all targeted platforms.

What I am getting at is that probably someone from PR screwed up ... if it meant that the game would not be made otherwise.

Yes, PR screwed up, but I believe development did as well. I believe the game could have still been made had a different, better course of action been taken instead. CDPR says there wasn't, but that may just be their attempts at justifying their poor decisions.

It's just that they communicated with us poorly - and that is the main thing that is wrong here - that's my main point.

I agree with your point that there was poor communication between development and its customers, but I don't believe that was their only fault. The downgrade itself, and not just their lack of transparency about it, is also a major blow on my (and many others') perception of the company. They claim they couldn't have otherwise afforded it, but I'm not so keen on believing them anymore, and I wonder if they hadn't considered alternative routes. Ironically enough, I refused to believe there was a downgrade until this interview. I believed CDPR instead. Now, I won't even take CDPR's word for it.

9 years ago*
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Sorry If i didn't reply to those in order, but here goes.

You seem to think it's easy to enlarge the budget, and do the "right thing" and put PC gamers always first. But the fact is - few people are really doing that. I'm not saying it is good, but the fact is you cannot pull the money out of your magic hat. CDPR still isn't as big as you seem to think it is.

Again, it's not good when PC gamers get the short end of the stick, but I feel if CDPR where frank, and said "listen, the game is gonna look a bit worse on PC, but at least we are get to make it - we won't be able to otherwise" many people would have understood.

If they where to push back the release even more, they would be loosing money (or at least not getting money, witch can be the same thing when you have bills to pay).

You simply seem to turn on them, because you cannot seem to fathom that they could run out of money, while in fact it would seem every dime counts for them. You say you believe that the game could have been made better. But you can't be certain. Money doesn't grow on trees. This situation does not exist in a vacuum, where you can spend infinite amount of time to polish your game. CDPR are still a relatively small developer. Sometimes you either cut corners, or don't release the game at all.

Maybe it wasn't the best course of action, but if they were frank about it, I think people would have reacted to it better - that is the core issue I feel. Or at least some people would have reacted better.

A lot of what you say is conjecture. You don't have to be right. Granted, neither do I, but I don't think throwing tantrums at a company that was fair before is the right way to go. Let's see what they will do in the future before finally condemning them. You on the other hand, seem to be happy in believing they did most of the things they did wrong - despite of what they say. Since they misinformed you once, you are going to assume everything they ever say is disingenuous, even if it sounds plausible? Isn't that jumping to conclusions?

9 years ago
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I don't believe it's easy to expand one's budget, but I wonder if it was possible and CDPR simply didn't try. Their comments and project decisions gave me the impression that they didn't exhaust all avenues and possibilities. Maybe I'm wrong and ignorant here, but I'd like to think that things could have turned out better had the team explored their options.

People may have understood and accepted it, but criticisms would have still came abounding. Actually, come to think of it, I wonder if their frankness could have actually ensured Witcher 3 was properly made. Had CDPR came out and said that, I wouldn't be surprised if donation drives would spring up or fans would begin demanding to preorder immediately so as to fund the project. A sort of Kickstarter craze might have ensued and the game could have expanded its budget through the preliminary sales from dedicated fans of the series and company. Regardless of whether this would occur, criticisms would nevertheless ensue and much of it would be directed at consoles for what many would perceive to be holding back CDPR from creating a graphically outstanding game.

I certainly can fathom that they could run out of money. However, I'm not entirely convinced that they would have. All we have to rely upon is CDPR's claims, and I've already explained why I see them as suspect. Of course I can't know for certain, but I can certainly conjecture. CDPR explicitly stated themselves that the graphics would have probably been better had it been a PC build, and there is overwhelming evidence that PC builds offer a far wider range of sophistication and higher degree of excellency since it does not impose the same limitations that consoles do. It doesn't matter if I'm certain about it since it's fairly obvious that it really could have been better.

Yes, the game could be infinitely better in theory so long as there is funding for it and those to develop it, but that sort of infinite regress just misleads the issue, and moreover relies on the assumption that the developers are infinitely skilled. We're working within the realm of possibility, though, so unlimited theoretical extrapolations aren't really helpful. Realistically, if CDPR had the funding, it could have developed a graphically superior game in a similar amount of time. The limit would be their skills and publisher demands, however, and not the size of the budget. No matter how big the budget, if the developers cannot properly utilize said budget, the excess might as well not be there. My entire point is that W3 was graphically stunted because of console limitations and possible budget concerns. It was not the best CDPR could have done and I firmly believe that W3 could have been far better graphically had they developed a PC build instead.

Maybe it wasn't the best course of action, but if they were frank about it, I think people would have reacted to it better - that is the core issue I feel. Or at least some people would have reacted better.

I concur, but that is not the course of action they took, so I am criticizing them for their failure to do so.

Granted, neither do I, but I don't think throwing tantrums at a company that was fair before is the right way to go.

I'm not "throwing a tantrum" and it's rather impertinent of you to accuse me of that. I'm criticizing CDPR on their poor decisions and holding them accountable for them through my disapproval. I'm supporting these criticisms through argumentation and evidence, not by my own feelings of discontent. If you didn't mean to imply I'm "throwing a tantrum", only that others are, then I agree that such misbehavior and immaturity gets us nowhere. That's why I'm not behaving like that. I'm dissatisfied, too, but I'd rather discuss it than just bitch and moan.

You on the other hand, seem to be happy in believing they did most of the things they did wrong - despite of what they say. Since they misinformed you once, you are going to assume everything they ever say is disingenuous, even if it sounds plausible? Isn't that jumping to conclusions?

I do believe that CDPR fucked up a lot with the W3 project. I've already explained why I believe that and I don't think my criticisms are baseless. I believed CDPR's words before when they said there was no downgrade. Now, they're coming out admitting that there was a graphical downgrade and have tried to justify their previous claims by shifting the definition of "downgrade" and claiming they didn't see it as that. As a result, my trust in their claims have eroded significantly.

Yes, I sympathize for them and I want to believe they're sincere. They may be, and dare I say probably are. I have my doubts and suspicions, though, and I am far more wary with believing what they say now. I made a fool of myself defending CDPR against the criticisms and scrutinizing the evidence of a downgrade by claiming they're misleading or inaccurate. (I even did so on SG, in case you don't remember. You were there, too, and you were more critical of CDPR than I was during that time.) Then, when the very people I so vehemently defended came out on the side of those I were saying were wrong, how do you expect me to react?

I was betrayed by the very people I defended, and the very things I claimed were lies turned out to be truths CDPR deceived me into doubting (intentionally or not). As a result of this, I've taken to the other side. I'm far more critical of CDPR and I'm far more suspicious of their motives. I doubt their claims and I question their promises. I was a fan of CDPR who believed they were the leading ethical company in the industry. Now, they lost a fan and have gained a critic. Maybe they'll win me over again, but even if so, my trust in them will always be qualified.

I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm just refusing to jump to the conclusion that everything they say is true and sincere. I did that once before with CDPR, and I paid for it. I'm not going to make the same mistake again.

9 years ago*
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Thanks, those are really good points.

If I offended you in any way - I apologize. Perhaps my wording was poor, I didn't want it to come out that way. I was just simply surprised that you've changed your views so drastically.

I mean, I can totally understand that you can feel betrayed, I just want to stress, that back in the other thread the accusers of CDPR were not always right too. Some claims (like the hard fps lock) were simply not true. People were very quick to judge and jumped on the hate wagon. They lost perspective. I feel if we get too heated in this debate we risk doing that too.

I am simply saying that everyone is less likely to trust them now, but if we jump from one extreme to another (like from strongly defending them to strongly criticizing them) we risk losing perspective. That is why I believe we should be more moderate in our judgments.

Let me say it again, everyone has the right to be angry, we just have to make sure that this whole thing will not color our judgement too much. Otherwise we will not be able to more objectively assess what they will do in the future. It's fine to lean to the one side of the argument. I just feel that we cannot make too strong claims at this point or we risk making a bad judgment. Or at least, even when we decide to make them, we should always be sure we are not driven by emotions as opposed to only hard facts.

That is why I was always somewhat critical of them, even though I root for them - I want to be sure that I see both sides of the equation.

All I'm saying is: it's fine to argue and criticize, we just have to make sure we are as objective as we can. When one changes his opinion based on one occurrence I think he risks losing perspective. And I am not saying this has happened, or will happen to you. I just want to make sure everyone is aware of that risk. Because it's really easy to become too biased in situations like this - especially when we think that we are not.

Moderation is key here, I think.

9 years ago
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I've tried to remain moderate, though I admit my views have polarized when challenged. I feel that if I remained reserved and hesitant in my judgments, my arguments would lack the potency that they otherwise would have.

But yes, moderation is something I've always endorsed as well. I suppose there's nothing left to discuss.

9 years ago
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really don't care. Graphics are a very low matter of importance on how fun a game is so why does it even matter?

9 years ago
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46 comments and no one brought the popcorn. No worries guys. I'll share.

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9 years ago
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It's been a while since I've stopped trusting them. The reasons why I have done so:

  1. changing a release date, which was supposed to be final and sure;
  2. paid DLCs, although they had mention these would be only free or none, what is also just hilarious is showing off how good they are due to providing free ones, which could've been released at the launch of the game;
  3. collector's editions that are different, despite they said else;
  4. and obvious downgrade, which could be even seen in one of the trailers.

Frankly, these are just trivialities and I wouldn't hate them had it not been for their attitude and lies.

9 years ago
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Sweet, maybe this means I'll be able to run it on my shitty laptop someday.

9 years ago
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