Will you own nothing and be happy?
Never happen - if it means that companies lose money to support online game severs then sooner or later no one will be in business or will never make new games
Comment has been collapsed.
Can't watch the video now, but there are a few other ways to get a similar result:
- Make it so that the games can also be played offline.
- Make it so that anyone can host a server for the game.
Granted, neither of these are super simple either, but it's cheaper than forcing the companies to run servers for a near-dead game.
Comment has been collapsed.
Both are very simple for any game developer. This is how older games were developed with very small teams. Sadly greed created planned obsolescence and the mess we have today.
People need to stop buying multiplayer only games. It used to be an added feature to a fully fleshed out singleplayer or co-op game. Now they rip it out and sell you the icing and cake decoration...promising a cake that never comes.
The best part...geniuses actually pre-order multiplayer only games...the insanity.
Comment has been collapsed.
I am not sure where this misconception comes from, but the ask is just to have the companies supply a means or knowledge of how the server of the game works so that players can relatively easily set up the game to work on a decentralized server or update the game so that it can work offline.
Examples:
-In the case of TF2, even if Valve were to shut down their servers, players can and do play the game with their own servers or community servers.
-I am not even sure who plays Homefront anymore, but you can still play Homefront with your own servers or community servers.
In the case of something like the Crew, you just cannot play the game -- period. There is no means to set up a server emulator, and there is no version to have the game work offline.
The bare minimum ask is to have such games have a specific date where the servers will be sunset at the time of purchase, so buyers are more aware of when the servers will end and that they can expect the game to no longer work at all.
Comment has been collapsed.
You're right that it's about money. You'd be surprised how powerful the EU can be though. They made Apple ditch the Lightning port, various online privacy and data protections, and are considering requiring auto manufacturers to remove safety features from touch screens, and onto physical buttons, that can be activated without the need to take your eyes off the road.
So back to how this relates to money, they can fine any non compliant companies, or ban them from trading in the EU. The EU is too big a market to ignore, and they won't want to throw that away by being lazy, just to save a few pennies.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's weird. How am I able to play old multiplayer games if their developers/publishers don't even exist anymore? You can create product that doesn't need to be constantly supported, but then - how will you mine players data?
Also how will you force them to buy new game if it's shit in comparison to the old one?
Just as others pointed out - it's just about making more money. Don't let corpos gaslight you.
Comment has been collapsed.
I wouldn't exactly celebrate.
Let's spit some facts
The Crew was dead before it died, no one cared about that game, this became big because "ubisoft = BAD"
charts -> https://steamdb.info/app/241560/charts/#max
What we get:
We save dead games, so when a random FPS with 100 players in the whole world dies, 20 players who care enough can still play, paying and hosting a server
What we lose:
Hard to say, a lot of stuff won't get developed in the first place. Private servers means multiplayer easier to pirate, also means a parallel community -> poorer monetization -> worse support
Because of course, making videogames is work and people work for money, not to gift awesome experiences to random strangers, multiplayers need constant support to be healthy and content to retain players
So... considering there is no one to save, the question is what we'll lose to fight this crusade against ubisoft, because let's be honest, it's just that, if it was a cdprojektred game people would say "bruh they need resources for Cyber Geraldo 4, it's just a small indie company", but it's ubisoft and a game with 50 daily players dead is compared to the fucking holocaust :)
Comment has been collapsed.
Steam isn't the primary platform for Ubisoft games so you can't really claim if a game is dead or not relying only on the number of players on Steam. Motorfest just released on Steam and has just some few hundred players on Steam. It isn't dead though.
That misleading argument aside, yeah The Crew was generally speaking irrelevant these days. But "only so few people still play it" should be relevant regarding ownership. You also didn't lose your oldtimer car just because there are fewer of them on the road and the manufacturer stops producing parts for it.
And last but not least, nobody would force publishers to make their games run "independent" before they choose to end their support. So all your talk about piracy, parallel communities etc also is irrelevant.
Comment has been collapsed.
Steam isn't the primary platform for Ubisoft games so you can't really claim if a game is dead or not relying only on the number of players on Steam. Motorfest just released on Steam and has just some few hundred players on Steam. It isn't dead though.
True, the curve of epic and uplay users is different but follow the same trend for sure, also I guess they are pretty close
That misleading argument aside, yeah The Crew was generally speaking irrelevant these days. But "only so few people still play it" should be relevant regarding ownership. You also didn't lose your oldtimer car just because there are fewer of them on the road and the manufacturer stops producing parts for it.
You can compare physical goods and digital licenses but I'm bringing the misleading arguments.
But still, an old car will be junk if breaks and has no replacement parts, and a software cannot be build to support future OS, drivers, hardware. I still have some cdroms that won't run on a windows 10 pc, I own them, I can't use them and even if I could, I probably wouldn't install The Sims 1 with several CDs because we are in 2024
And last but not least, nobody would force publishers to make their games run "independent" before they choose to end their support. So all your talk about piracy, parallel communities etc also is irrelevant.
I currently don't have a lot of time so I'm casually playing phone games, marvel snap and pokemon go, those game wouldn't exist without multiplayer and a "community server" wouldn't work, probably, both relies on weekly updates, global connection, etc... and even if we ignore the technical aspect, I really doubt that pokemon and marvel would give their license to a game with those free servers policy.
Comment has been collapsed.
Odd that there are many working oldtimers from the very beginnings of the car history, despite manufacturers not supporting them anymore.
Odd that there are frameworks, emulators and more solutions to keep software running, even without support of the original developer. And without causing any legal conflicts.
Odd that there are tons of multiplayer games which don't require weekly updates and run perfectly fine.
Odd that you are concerned about global connections and other technical issues as a reason against this initiative, considering that these questions are irrelevant in the given context. If people don't manage to provide the necessary infrastructure, that's okay. It's about the legal option to even attempt it.
You seem hellbent to come up with arguments against it that are irrelevant.
Regarding licenses and other stuff: That's to be determined by the potential new laws, if the initiative should be successful.
I don't see why it should be impossible to run a server if you don't monetize an IP. Make it okay by law, done. Just like laws already restrict copyright protection in favor of the general public interest.
Comment has been collapsed.
I probably wouldn't install The Sims 1 with several CDs because we are in 2024
I'm more of a sims 2 fan and it's possible to run it smoothly, with just a little bit of "PC master race" magic. Sims 1 need a little bit more of tinkering but it's still possible on w10 and w11.
also you can just emulate older machine.
Everything is possible.
Even playing multiplayer while hosting your own server and inviting friends by directly connecting with their machines. It used to be norm. This was thrown away in favor of being online-only. I wonder why /s.
Comment has been collapsed.
software cannot be build to support future OS, drivers, hardware
err...
https://store.steampowered.com/app/15700/Oddworld_Abes_Oddysee/ game from (1997) work just fine
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3830/Psychonauts/ (2005) just need one M$ program to run
Duke Nukem (1991) just need Dos-Box
and!:
I probably wouldn't install The Sims 1 with several CDs because we are in 2024
Just need a crack
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Sims
if you seriously want play old game you just need some effort or emulator
And this law give US ("THE GAMERS") games without expiration date for digital game!
Comment has been collapsed.
First off, thinking about what could be lost or at least be at risk by this, is thorough. But that's the only positive thing I see here.
"Dead game":
The Crew is a good example for a game with multiplayer which can still be enjoyed as a single player game. With the sheer amount of games around nowadays fewer people re-play games. Now does concurrent unique players say much about the success of single player games? Nope.
Is a multiplayer game with 100 people a day dead? Compared to something like Fortnite, sure. But mainstream is not everything, otherwise we could just kill indie games. Why did those 100 people still play The Crew instead of its sequels or Forza Horizon 4 or 5? Because some can't afford newer games? Surely, but there certainly are also other players who prefer the game due to some features.
Why would your opinion "dead game" weigh more than the opinion of those 100 players? Have you ever been in the situation that a beloved game shut down? Have you ever tried to play an old game with peer 2 peer servers or a modded community server? Do you rely on a matchmaking within seconds? Why would modders reverse engineer code for years, pay for a server, website, communication, spend time on administration and moderation if it wasn't worth it?
"Ubisoft=bad"
While there are certainly people who not only dislike Ubisoft's publisher practices, but hate them with passion and thus support this initiative, it's about publicity. Have other games been killed before? Of course, but those had overall fewer players or were less known to the public, or people who tried to launch an initiative like this failed because of lower social media reach.
I signed this and I would have signed it if any other publisher was responsible, including CDProjektRed.
Private servers means multiplayer easier to pirate, also means a parallel community -> poorer monetization -> worse support
You could just establish private servers at the end of the life cycle. And no, that doesn't mean that all the devs need to come back. The functionality could be there from the very first build, but only activated in the end. Best case would be to only change one line of code. Updates in between might have changed a bit, requires a bit of testing,. but with a proper documentation this can be done within one business day.
Some games are already offering peer 2 peer servers from the beginning. Why would they do that if you're right?
I don't use the high seas, so I unfortunately can't analyze which games are available there, but by what I read here and there it doesn't sound like they would be unable to offer multiplayer or protected games.
Comment has been collapsed.
Spit the fact as well, that publishers don't need to spend money and sustain it indefinitely, just giving options for players to play it :)
Comment has been collapsed.
Servers hosted by a dev/publisher being necessary for the longevity of games not designed from the ground up as MMOs is not true at all. There are many multiplayer games that are 5-10+ years old that still have healthy playerbases because they aren't tied to online servers that can't/won't be maintained forever. Look at OG Unreal Tournament, that was released in 1999 and is still being actively played today.
But really, there's also no reason not to have an official server while also having the option for player run servers. The dev/publisher can still make money off microtransactions or subscriptions and such, and the game also isn't gone for good when they decide it's no longer worthwhile to keep that official servers open. Even in MMORPGs, Ultima Online released in 1997 and is also still running today, it has official servers and also player run servers that exist alongside it that don't cause issues with player numbers or income from the official servers.
Comment has been collapsed.
If people could run World of Warcraft as a private server for god knows how long now, ANYTHING can be done with MMORPGS. That's no excuse.
Games shouldn't die in this way. Time kills all, but greed kills faster.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah I pointed that out with UO. But private servers aren't always an option for MMOs, sometimes the server code is such a mess people give up trying, or it takes so long to reverse engineer it that there aren't many people who are still interested when it finally happens.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's why this law is important, they will be obliged to share the information and make easier the transition.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why would they give a toss about piracy if they are shutting down the game anyway? They're talking about saving dead games, not letting everyone set up servers on new games, so that's not an issues. Let those 20 people pay for a server and have fun with it. There is no cost to the developers, and it affects no one else. This has been done with many games over the years and the gaming industry hasn't fallen apart.
It's like the anti-mac sentiment that is rising on Steam yet again. Why does anyone else care what someone else does. If they want to pay for a server, let them. If they want to play on an OS that you don't like, let them. You know?
Comment has been collapsed.
People like you are the reason companies like Ubisoft will continue to thrive.
The Crew being dead is not the point. Its all about integrity and transparency.
If I paid for a product without an expiry date at purchase. One cannot be added afterwards because it voids the original contract. (Microsoft Windows for example gives you an idea of how long their product will be supported, so you can plan accordingly).
Ubisoft either needs to bring it back online or issue a full / partial refund to everyone that bought the game for wasting our time. Moreso because offline mode is present in the game but they blatantly refused to activate it. Why? Because geniuses like you don't understand honor and doing the right thing...because its the right thing to do.
If people were told the Crew would be shut down during purchase. Many would have instantly requested a refund.
I will not buy another Ubisoft game until the Crew comes back. And most would never buy again period.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, I'm fucking stupid, the evil incarnate and the reason people work for money and not for honor.
And since ubisoft thrive thanks to me (last ubi game I bought was siege something like 8 ys ago) you must be the CEO of the high IQ society
Comment has been collapsed.
No one is asking new games to release with private servers, they want the option patched into games once the publisher/dev stops supporting them.
Comment has been collapsed.
That couldn't be trivial, or possible at all.
You are all acting like those spoiled devs don't want to add
if ( game.isDead ) {
game.freeServers = true
}
Comment has been collapsed.
in my opinion every game should be able to play offline singleplayer, making a game only available for a certain time and then just shutting it whole down is just a scam, yes im looking at you the crew
Comment has been collapsed.
I think forcing games to be playable offline singleplayer shouldn't be the rule from the get go.
But If the server are due to go down then it should be a requirement to enable the game to be playable offline.
My reasoning is free games for an example, basically all of them rely on selling microtransactions and cosmetics to the user, if you can simply play all those games offline singleplayer then the companies won't make any money.
The problem scenario with having this rule only apply if a games servers are going to be shut down is that if a company is going bankrupt they won't have the resources to dev that if that's the whole reason the servers are being shut down...
Comment has been collapsed.
true but ig i didnt make myself clear with this, i do agree f2p games should have online servers, but games you pay for should always be accessible even if you dont have internet or if the game gets removed from store pages like many other games do for example grid 2/dirt 3 and more, you can still play it while its removed from store but the crew you cant play and it makes me afraid the same outcome will come for the crew 2 (i havent bought the crew but i do have the crew 2 and from their history it doesnt look good lol) i just am afraid more compienes will go like this with their games and i wish they didnt, people buy a game and have it, not to expect it to be removed and unplayable later :/ and also a game doesnt need to have any servers if you can play it offline, it is an choice the developers of those games make
Comment has been collapsed.
I completely agree with that. I'm just not sure about the business sense of allowing a game to be offline solo playable right out of the box if it's a game that's main income relies on the online'ness of the game.
Comment has been collapsed.
Look at this garbage still being sold:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/338530/Trouble_In_The_Manor/
- multiplayer only, no way to play it in single player mode
- there are no official servers
EDIT: don't know if I messed up the link, or someone deleted it, it should be fine now.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why don't you link the EU initiative directly? Please add it to the original posting: https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en. Also maybe the website of the initiative with more background information: https://www.stopkillinggames.com/
Comment has been collapsed.
It's in the video description. I believe people should watch the video first.
Comment has been collapsed.
Signed and spreading the word. Something very important to understand, is that the Brussels effect is a very real thing, with very real worldwide consequences. This could set record not only for gaming, but for other service related predatory practices. Great initiative, hope it reach its goal.
Comment has been collapsed.
Don't get your hopes up: the European Union is on its way to become the new Soviet Union and the last election proved that most Europeans simply do not care, the globalists will stay in power for at least 5 more years.
Comment has been collapsed.
Globalism and globalization is that globalism is an ideology based on the belief that people, information, and goods should be able to cross national borders unrestricted, while globalization is the spread of technology, products, information, and jobs across nations.
This is really how the world should be. There shouldn't even be borders or nations. Outside of indicating which dbags and their rules we live under, what do they really do?
Comment has been collapsed.
Do not confuse the economical definition of globlisation - a somewhat positive notion - with the political approach: to uniform, to merge everything - forcefully. For an American, a nation is hard to define, but think of it as roots, traditions, core values (besides Christianity, or family even). I'm sure you have one or more you can relate to as well, after all, unles you are not 100 Native American, you aren't really American and origin either from the European continent or Africa, or somewhere else. To us, Europeans it is important - to dictators, who wanted to uniform everything, it wasn't. Hopefully the EU that is now, will be spwept away, just like the Soviet Union was.
Comment has been collapsed.
A nation is easy to define as an American.
As is the uselessness of borders and nationalism. As a rule, you're just following one set of arbitrary rules or another, telling you how and where to live, and being given something to identify with to keep you subservient.
But in a way, you're saying the same thing I am.
Comment has been collapsed.
If we look past of the simple way of thinking, past the lines of John Lennon's 'Imagine' and the whole hippy lifestyle (which for some reason always criticise Christianity only) I think it's easy to understand that humans need to belong to something, to define themselves.
What you say about nationalism, is only true if define yourself AGAINST something or someone... if you are proud of your own merits, than nationalism is a good thing (especially today, with all the so called 'woke' mainstream).
Otherwise we would just be like ants, productive, but mindless and in the end consuming and killing everything.
Comment has been collapsed.
What you say about nationalism, is only true if define yourself AGAINST something or someone... if you are proud of your own merits, than nationalism is a good thing (especially today, with all the so called 'woke' mainstream).
Unfortunately nationalism has been used against others over and over again. There is no reason to be proud of having a nationality in first place, because you just happened to be born there. Can you be proud after contributing to a nation for let's say 20 years (taxes, political participation, voluntary work)? Sure, but you can also achieve that by being part of other groups (clubs, NGOs, your neigbourhood). Your impact on these smaller groups is also bigger. Additionally, there's the question what pride is offering at all. Since you mentioned Christianity, there it's a sin. If pride makes you feel better than others, it's wrong. If it motivates you, okay, but you can get motivation from other sources, too.
Despite of supranational organisations local merits, dialects and customs continue to exist. Texans have different customs from Californians, Kazakhs have different ones from Estonians and I as someone from Northern Germany don't eat weisswurst or wear leather trousers.
Comment has been collapsed.
Hard to argue with a German about nationalism, lol, yet I'll try (I do know that Germans think and say different things about it when they are - or think they are - between friends and acquaintances anyway ;))
As a Hungarian - often accused with nationalism as well - we lost a lot of things due to the lack of nationalism. We tried to be friendly and polite to everyone (well, after taking Christianity anyway) and if you take a look at our history, you can see it didn't work. Healthy nationalism is a good thing: if you look at Africa or Asia, you'll find it everywhere you go. What's even more interesting: if you are proud of yourself and where you belong to, they'll also respect you better.
Again motivation is good and being proud of being part of something is also a good thing. We are not in the Middle Ages anymore, where the Church had restrictions (I mean yes, they still do, like no sex outside marriage - if you think about it, it's a very sensible thing - even if it's kind of impossible),
If you meant that last section to back up your thoughts against the existence of borders - I'll have to disagree. Take a look at the war between Israel and Palestine (?). They need borders, they need clarified, separated countries where they can live in peace and independently from each other.
Comment has been collapsed.
(I do know that Germans think and say different things about it when they are - or think they are - between friends and acquaintances anyway ;))
Some, not all. I like Germany, I'm not an ultra left hating my country, I like the language, I like some things Germany might stand for, I've contributed to its economical success, society, politics, but considering there are 80 million others it's a pretty small impact. It's way easier to be proud of my personal accomplishments or those among a small group/team. What you describe as healthy pride is rather self-assurance to me. To know what you're capable of, to know what you're worth, to know what you can ask for.
Take a look at the war between Israel and Palestine (?)
I agree with you in this regard and would approve a two country solution there. My previous paragraph was rather regarding your earlier statement that the EU was uniforming everything. Economically and geopolitically we benefit from the EU, because our single countries wouldn't stand a chance vs. US, Russia, China. I haven't seen the EU forbidding any local merits or customs. Those issues between the Hungarian government and the EU are rather related to different views on democracy, state of law and discrimination.
If this is about LGTBQ+ or abortions rights.. I view those as human rights, which should not only be observed by EU, but even globally by UN.
Comment has been collapsed.
I still don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive: be proud of yourself - for what you are and of what your nation did and achieved in the past. We Hungarians made some bad decisions in the 20th century (of most we didn't have much choice about tbh), but other than that we are a proud nation, as we should be.
I think the EU is on a terrible path, overthinking its power, jurisdiction and confusing its economical status with everything else, ran by totally incompetent corrupt officials, who were unfit to achieve anything in their home country. Allow me (hope you won't take it personally) to provide you 2 examples from Germany:
- Ursula von der Leyen, who was a total failure as the Minister of Defence in Germany and now she runs the entire European Commission (yeah, she is a puppet in reality, but still)
- Daniel Freund who lives on German taxpayers' money (now re-elected for the 2nd term) and does absolutely nothing, other than criticizing Hungary. We think he is a useful idiot (he spreads bad things about us, but more and more people recognize our government's effort partially due to what he claims), but he is vastly overpaid for this role
I do think that the EU was a good thing, sometime until the end of the 90s, but has gone haywire ever since.
I know a lot about German mainstream media and the chaotic situation regarding the freedom of press there (I speak a bit of German myself), so I can only suggest you not to believe everything what the German media spreads about us Hungarians (we don't eat trans people for breakfast) and read more news on X.com.
Comment has been collapsed.
for what you are and of what your nation did and achieved in the past.
Imagine you were born in a country which begins an offensive war. Would you still be proud? Would it matter whether the political leader just decided to go for it or if there was an actual democratic election and the majority voted for the war? Would you still proudly say: "these are my people!" Or would you feel ashamed? Would you try to stop them? Or flee? Would you tell foreigners that you didn't want it and aren't to blame? If you feel proud after a merely positive development, you also have to feel responsible/ashamed after a merely negative development, right?
Nah, I don't take that personally. I dislike von der Leyen myself, I have different political views. There have been several accusations regarding corruption and she got out of them too easily. But I am not sure about the "total failure" regarding her time as Minister of Defence, because others weren't better.
Regarding Freund: Members of the European Parliament are paid by EU since 2009, not the original countries. I don't see where he's spreading bad things about you, but about Orban, his family and the government. Sounds like you take that personally.
I agree when it comes to bureaucracy and waste of tax money, both has to be reduced. However, the alternative.. ask the Britains. :o
Germany is currently at rank 10 regarding freedom of press, Hungary at 67 (https://rsf.org/en/index?year=2024). I don't have any trouble finding news or rather comments with different views/angles of the political spectrum. I know about the mostly right-wing critics regarding public TV and radio, but then again I don't see those people blame conservative/right-wing Springer press for having the widest circulation of daily newspapers.
X isn't independent itself and I have never seen any advantage in limiting the digits of a message.
Comment has been collapsed.
You have a point there, but for me it's hard to imagine: Hungary always stood on the good side and on the rare cases it didn't, I would say it stood on the reasonable side. I would have to think, let's say with the head of a Russan or an American to understand this warmonger point of view which you talk about. It would certainly be an interesting experience - and I would probably agree with you in that case, I would condemn the actions of my nation or government (if it acted against the will of the majority).
Yes, I've heard the problematic matters around the German army (corruption mostly) and that if the leadership wants someone to step aside they appoint them as Minister of Defence. Which is similar to what I was talking about - in my country the socialists/communists send out their rivals into the European Parliament, not realizing that they are doing these individuals a favour, because the person receives a very high salary, builds good relations + probably learns another language along the way. Oh well.
You misunderstood. His campaign is paid by the Germans + Germany is amongst the largest netto contributors of the EU budget (they reap the most as well, but that's irrelevant here) so obviously he is wasting your money first and foremost. You also have the highest responsibility not so send clowns into the European Parliament, since you have the highest, a whopping number of 96 seats in the EP. We only have 21, but imagine if we sent a MEP with nothing else to do just to criticize Germany... let me tell you, they wouldn't be re-elected.
And that is the issue, because these MEPs get so overexcited sometimes, that they 'accidentaly' start slandering the entire Hungarian nation instead of just Orbán (just take a look at his tweets, he often makes that mistake).
Indeed, Orbán has some little corrupt cases and it's important to draw attention to these, but when EP and EC officials do this, like Guy Verhofstadt who takes EUR millions from energy companies, or Freund who is openly a Soros puppet, but I could again mention von der Leyen as well, who ordered vaccines during the Covid period through SMS and was found guilty, but still got re-elected... do you seriously think that Orbán's few shady deals are the most important to keep jumping on, when in pretty much everything else he is right? Why do you think we vote for him, even though the majority, ~70% of the online media in Hungary is still left-liberal (despite urban legends)?
Surely you can't be serious about the freedom of speech in Germany - it's a fact that it's the worst in Europe nowadays. Where government-criticizing magazines are closed off by nthe police or where an anti-conservative influencer/comedian is funded by the left-liberal goverment... these things are unimaginable not only in Hungary but pretty much even in any other looked-down Eastern-European countries.
Comment has been collapsed.
I had forgotten Orban was Hungary's leader, but seeing mention of him, and your defense of him, crystalized some things for me as far as why you view things the way you do. The article I linked above discusses why authoritarians enjoy popular support from their citizens and authoritarians are able to prevent there being any opposition to their rule while still enjoying popular support. It's far from the only article and study that discusses this of course.
Comment has been collapsed.
"is only true if define yourself AGAINST something or someone..."
Being against something can be part of what defines a person, but it's nowhere close to being a person's full identity.
"Otherwise we would just be like ants, productive, but mindless and in the end consuming and killing everything."
Ants require a queen. We don't. Nor do ants just mindlessly consume and destroy everything. In fact, ants build locally and some ants engage in agriculture as well (raising fungi for example). People OTOH are more than capable of thinking for themselves and don't require a queen to be productive. Now, maybe you require somebody to tell you how and where to live, but that isn't really part and parcel with being human.
"past the lines of John Lennon's 'Imagine' and the whole hippy lifestyle (which for some reason always criticise Christianity only)"
It's not just "hippy lifestyle" lol. And while it's not really relevant to the conversation, Christianity deserves far more criticism than it receives. I guess the Christian victim complex is a proactive one lol.
Beyond all that, how Myrsan responded is also correct.
Comment has been collapsed.
If you take the Olympics, it's a perfect example: it shows the prowess of the individual yet they all represent a nation. You can be proud of what you are and who you belong to - the 2 are not mutually exclusive.
As someone who works in the agricultural sector, I can tell you that ants are one of the worst pests your garden can possibly have. They eat everything + carry aphids onto plants and trees... and they are lazy as well. 2 myths busted in 1 sentence lol.
We all live in countries ruled by a political party, a parliament, a senate, a president or a prime minister - and it's fine, Politics is good, as long as we have a say in it.
Christianity received a lot of bashing in the Middle Ages - rightfully. But since then it's still the prime religion for those who think we should love each other and yes, sadly today this is the most persecuted religion in the world (in Africa, Asia and sadly now in Western-Europe too).
Comment has been collapsed.
"2 myths busted in 1 sentence lol."
Not at all. In fact, ants actually enjoy the aphid secretions and so they treat them as a person might treat a milk cow. Which is more evidence of having an at least partially agricultural society. And just randomly claiming ants are lazy isn't a fact, lol. Their presence being inconvenient to people is not relevant at all. However, if, for the sake of argument, ants do everything at the behest of their queen and are also incredibly lazy, that completely strikes down the argument you made about people needing governing.
"Christianity received a lot of bashing in the Middle Ages - rightfully. But since then it's still the prime religion for those who think we should love each other and yes, sadly today this is the most persecuted religion in the world (in Africa, Asia and sadly now in Western-Europe too)."
The Christian persecution complex is certainly vast lol. Because to a Christian, everything not being exactly as they think it should be equates to persecution in their minds. Given the incredibly frail house of cards upon which Christianity is built and upon which Christians seem to operate, it seems like wasted tears IMO. This isn't exclusive to Christians of course. Feel free to insert your theistic religion du jour in place of Christianity. It certainly would be appropriate to consistently call people out for worshiping fictional characters though.
"Politics is good, as long as we have a say in it."
More naive words have possibly never been written.
Comment has been collapsed.
Famous last words, haha. Well, I hope you are not saying that it's useless to vote, since you can't change anything anyway, because then we'll end up like those miserable people who are lazy to go vote once in every 4 or 5 years but complain about everything inbetween...
Ants are indeed worthless and lazy: you see the cows we use, don't destroy trees, they eat (more or less dry) grass, which regrows multiple times every given year. As for lazyness, if you cut their method of travel between the aphids and their hive, they choose the shortest and not the safest one, where I can kill them at my leisure.
You mean being persecuted? It's not an idea, take a look at the news what's happening in Africa and Western Europe. A lot of people are fueled by hatred towards organized religion for unknown reasons. Would they go against sects? No, not satisfying enough. What about Islam? Also, not good, since you can get stabbed. What about Catholics... oh yes, they say they love everyone? Can't go wrong there. It's kind of logical, but people who think like this can't see beyond the end of their noses.
Comment has been collapsed.
Generally, people don't refuse to vote because they are lazy. They don't vote because, at least in the States, the Electoral College system is broken and the popular vote winner doesn't equate to the actual winner unless the voting districts line up perfectly. This election cycle, I think there were going to be a lot of people abstaining, but now that it's not just an 80 year old wannabe dictator psycho with cognitive issues (Trump), an 80 year old corporatist with cognitive issues (Biden), and a 70 year old lunatic with no cognitive abilities (RFK), I think the voter turnout will be at an all time high and the States are going to vote in their very first female president.
Other ways in which ants are not useless or harmful: They aerate the soil: Ants burrow and improve soil structure, allowing better water and oxygen infiltration; Nutrient cycling: They collect and decompose organic matter; Seed dispersal: Ants take seeds into their tunnels, leading to new plant growth; Clean ecosystem: Ants remove dead insect carcasses and aid in decomposition; Bioindicators: Their presence indicates ecosystem health. And I am confident you don't understand the word lazy. Choosing a direct route home despite some dude hulking over them isn't lazy. It's an indication that the individual units are following their queen's directive: to get home in the most expeditious manner possible. Lazy would be the ants saying "I'm too tired to walk home" lol.
However, the topic of voting, Christian victim complexes and ants are all digressions. Fun topics, but not relevant to the topic of nationalism being more or less a social construct designed to keep the masses in line.
Comment has been collapsed.
Oh, and while Christians aren't actually being persecuted anywhere in the world despite what they like to claim when they see a black mermaid, a trans video game character, or an amazing opening day Olympics ceremony, there are certainly innumerable reasons why religion in general should be stamped down. Not the least of which being the incredibly high percentage of wars fought under religious banners, their consistent persecution of anybody not of their religion or following their own brand of religious rules, the fact that you really shouldn't have people wandering around claiming they speak to or for nonexistent entities and not give these people the help they need via mental institutions and/or counseling, and so on.
Comment has been collapsed.
Oh no, not mermaids or trans, I mean I wish they were attacking Christian communities... unfortunately I was thinking more along the lines of terrorist organizations, like Boko Haram, who constantly launch attacks against African Christian communities. But you could also see that while France was very 'liberal' with their rather 'unique' Olympics opening ceremony, apparently a Brazilian surfer, Joao Chianca was not allowed to use his surfboard depicting the statue of Jesus (the iconic monument in Rio de Janeiro):
https://x.com/DiedSuddenly_/status/1817240396906274984
Or you could start counting the cases where public figures were forced to take off crosses they were wearing (on a necklace for example) in Western-Europe, because it might hurt other people's feelings (they could elaborate this someday, because I have no idea how the principles of Christianity the 10 Commandmens, the basis of civilizations and liberal democracies could hurt anyone).
Regarding ants, I really want to emphasize that I work around them and can see what they are capable of.
No, they don't do the things you listed. While in theory one could say that what you state sounds right, but actually they dig deep holes into the ground and actually make the water/moisture leak away from the roots of the plant and the seeds they cultivate are exclusively of weeds (not even the ones you could smoke, but the useless or rather the virulent ones). The avails you mention are the work of the earthworms really, they indeed make the soil better by digesting organic materials.
But yes, let's drop the ants topic even if I could talk about the Camponotus Ligniperda, to which somewhat what you said applies, but that one for example can make damage to (dead) wood, including housing structure and so on.
I pay attention to US politics, I read a lot about it since the US is a rather important actor when it comes to global politics and with a little exaggaration it benefits the entire world, if the US has a capable president. You were talking about your national elections, I wasn't.
It's a common issue for Americans (and I don't want to be disrespectful towards you) to think of Europe (with many little states) as if it was the US with its 50 states. That is not the case. Europe is a continent consisting of very different nation states (and some city states) with very different cultural backgrounds and origins.
Inside it is the European Union, which is a strictly economical alliance of 27 member states. Lately it has become a political union as well, but having a shady judicatory system and no common foreign policy, trust me, it still is just an economical union.
We, citizens of the member states have only one way to vote - the Members of the European Parliament, which is the highest executive body of the EU (in reality it isn't - that would be the European Commission, which we can't vote for directly).
Now this is completely different from national parliamentary elections and therefore citizens of the member states of the European Union do not take this seriously. That's why I mentioned lazyness, it's a general thing in the EU: people vote for their national parliament and attend their municipal elections, but wave their hands when it comes to the European Elections (which is almost as important). This level of ignorance was one of the reasons why an Italian criminal and terroist was able to win a seat in the European Parliament this year, after attacking and nearly killing a man in Budapest, Hungary, where I live.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilaria_Salis
This happened in June 2024 again and that's why I tried to calm everyone down who had their hopes up regarding the current leadership of the EU.
Comment has been collapsed.
I've literally never seen anybody say that European Nations are States. Maybe you saw some random people say that? It's certainly not common lol. I'd say what is more common is a lot of people making assumptions regarding what they assume Americans assume. Was it the goal of the EU to unify European nations by trying to streamline things? Probably. You do have the Right of Free Movement, which is a step in the correct direction. It is actually not too dissimilar to the States system/Union though, wherein Americans also have the right to free movement as well, with each State having their own laws, economy, taxes, (in most cases), borders, accents, etc...but have shared currency and some centralized laws as well.
Criminals in power is what I would consider the most prevalent type of leader. People with real morals/social values have limits to what they'll do to attain money and power.
I do want to add one more note about ants because what I said is well documented. I think what you are doing is confusing their invasive nature with the ecological advantages they bring. Obviously, they are going to come into conflict with people. People have conflicts with any species that occupies a space they want to use. Especially when they are competing for resources or territory. And ants are surprisingly similar in that regard.
Comment has been collapsed.
I have unfortunately and I mean it's understandable to think like that. To me the US Congress/Senate setup creates a bit of a confusion now and then :)
Yes, the freedom of movement of people - but what's more important is the free trade of goods, capital and services. Free movement was kind of possible befor, all it took was waiting a few hours at the borders and if you weren't a terrorist (unlike some MEPs in the current European Parliament) you could get citizenship even. Just for the record, countries with strong economies, like Norway and Switzerland + now the United Kingdom, can do well without the EU (and they are independent), all their hardship is the waiting at the borders :P (simplified obviously, the EU has special agreements with these countries)
I wouldn't want to generalize in this matter, as it can lead to what I was talking about earlier: "politics is bad". It is not inherently bad, it can/should be good. It used to be good in Western-Europe, now the tables have turned and you have to go to Eastern-Europe for that.
And no, having someone in a Parliament, who can vote and decide about your future, with a criminal record behind her back, who is almost a murderer (the person she attacked with her terrorist group, nearly died due to his head wounds) is definitely not OK and should not be taken lightly.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is not going to work. One becuase the developers would have to consider the cost of the server infrastructure even if their game fails.
Second, because when you get a government entity to put laws on fields that they have no idea how they work, they absolutely will screw everything up.
For example, in Spain we have a law against piracy that assumes every single storage device is going to be used for piracy, so you will get charged more money when getting storage hardware becuase they assume your are going to pirate content with it...
Imagine if they have to set up anything mroe complex than that.
Comment has been collapsed.
Please, read, before making your mind and posting your opinions. Nobody expects the publishers to keep their servers any longer, than they do. The legislation would just require them to either make it possible to play in singleplayer or to create private servers once they decide to close the official servers.
And, yes, I fully support it, and I have tried to sign it already... however it seems, that eID system in use in Poland (or my particular way of login into it) does not work with EU petitions. I have just posted a request for explanation to admins of our eID system.
Comment has been collapsed.
It doesn't say in any single place "SINGLE PLAYER" only.
And the laws will apply to EVERY SINGLE GAME, if the law goes on, then the devs just have to change what the category of the game is in Europe and ignore all this.
The forum is made for that, for post opinions, just because your opinion on a specific subject doesn't align with other people doesn't mean that you or the other people is wrong.
But with legal stuff you have to be 100% sure of what you are writing about, you must contemplate every single game case scenario.
The request is super vague and have claims that makes absolutely no sense and it will kill the industry.
I understand what they want to achieve and the idea is good, the execution is terrible and you absolutely don't want the goverment take action directly on the first place before trying by other ways.
It's like you get a scrach on your finger and before you go to your home first aid kit yo go straigth to the emergency room on the hospital.
Comment has been collapsed.
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en
"(...)Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.
The initiative does not seek to acquire ownership of said videogames, associated intellectual rights or monetization rights, neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state."
Providing reasonable means to continue, leaving in a reasonably functional (playable) state without further providing resources to the said videogames once they discontinue. That means either removing restrictions blocking those games from being played offline or providing means for users to setup their own multiplayer servers. OFC, this could mean some additional development costs before closing the game or even at the time of designing it, but those costs should be relatively very small. It's that simple.
Comment has been collapsed.
Asking for things is simple when you don't have to do it.
This can make studios just stop creating online games because it will be a headache more.
It's not the same making a hosted server in your computer and let your friends connecto to it that making a MMO server.
And also, you can make the law to let the "servers not die" fine, but then the IP and contets of the game (art, character models, assets, etc...) are owned by the company. They can simply let you create the server but not let you use their legaly owned assets, and also start legal actions against servers created by people that have any kind of monetary benefit for the owner of the server (like Minecraft does).
Comment has been collapsed.
The request is super vague and have claims that makes absolutely no sense and it will kill the industry.
This is just pure nonsense mate, methinks.
But I'm curious of your reasoning, as when you make such statements, you must comtemplate (sic!) every single game case scenario.
Comment has been collapsed.
Because it's a law, not a chat with a friend.
If redact a half-assed law directly based on what the webpage is saying there is going to be studios that are going to win with this and studios that are going to lose.
Why would anyone want to develop a MMO when you have to take into consideration that you will have to give your wole server infrastructure configuration?
You think everyone can have a server to handle (for example) FFXIV?
The kind of things that the website demands is just going to make future devs to avoid make online games just so you don't have a legal headache.
Comment has been collapsed.
The EU never just lifted random text into a law ad verbatim, and it's insane to think that will ever happen. Even things they agree on, goes through ROUNDS of legal revisions lol.
The whole point of this shit to even have it discussed like modern, worthy people deserve in the 21th century, and not treated as the serfdom of publishers.
PS:
You think everyone can have a server to handle (for example) FFXIV?
Not your problem, not their problem, but it has to be doable. I'm not even sure if it affects MMOs, as there were "pirate" WoW servers around well before Blizzard started their own nostalgia servers. Your complaint is decades old, and please, tell us. What percentage of the game is FF14 level of MMO, so it's affected by your unfounded worries?
Comment has been collapsed.
Are you seriousle right now about what are you talking about?
Here is a list of MMORPG games on Steam:
https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/MMORPG
All these games, every single one of the games on this list, will be obligated to make all their server side configuration, their network infrastucture, everything related to the connections (that even the code it uses can be hardcoded in the game and the infraestructure of the servers can be private property).
They will have to modify all their private server side configuration to a public/self hosted configuration accessible for anyone (we are not talking to connect to the server and play, we are talking about every single server related thing), and also they will have to provide the proper updates and security patches agains possible vulnerabilities as long as the game is online.
And all legal problems that can happen on that servers, because they happen in X game, all the problems that an user of said game can have will go to the studio in first place. For example harassment against some user via game chat or voice chat.
It's not "just code it bro", it's more more complicated than that. If you think that EU governors are like the absolute authority of knowledge and hold the truth to all enigmas you're wrong. On my country aline i can name several legal issues that happend due to redacting a law lacking all possible scenarios, the law wanted to punish rapists more, but because the way it was redacted it was possible for some rapists that were already in jail to get out of early...
And i don't know under what circumstances are you reading this, but looks like you think i'm deffending the giga billionare global companies, but the problem isn't that kind of business because they have all the money the want and can get a lawyer to simply skip whatever they want them to do, the problem is the indie studies that will want to release an online game and don't have the means to support what the specific initiative is set up.
Remember that the EU is a politic structure, not a game developing company.
Comment has been collapsed.
" What percentage of the game is FF14 level of MMO,"
"Here is a list of MMORPG games on Steam:" (unrelated, MMO =/= FF14, classic case of moving the goalposts)
Remember that the EU is a politic structure, not a game developing company.
I think you forgot that you aren't talking to a toddler. And you still ignore the fact that this whole event is to bring attention to a problem, not to phrase a bloody law for the European Union. Chill.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why are you changing subjects? You start a debate and when the answaers you receive doesn't align with the answers you want you just try to throw it under the rug.
Comment has been collapsed.
I did not change the topic, tbf I'm still waiting on the part how it will kill the (WHOLE )industry like you stated, while you keep reminding me that EU is not a game developer. Or that I think it's just "code it bro" while you remain ignorant about the part where I said that "Even things they agree on, goes through ROUNDS of legal revisions lol.". You talk to me like I'm some child or some dimwit, then when I address it, you ask me why I'm changing the subject. Because that's the part that is underhanded, uncalled for and stupid, while I know enough about the other parts, that's why.
Why are you worrying about the letter of the law if that letter of the law is literally not existing right now, and it will be written in SOME form, in the future, years and years from now, IF this initiative will go through? Why are you pestering me about it, telling me that the EU is not a game dev studio, for crying out loud? They have laws regarding fishing, oil transportation and trading, and it's not a fishmonger, neither an oil company nor a trader, but they somehow got that done?
Comment has been collapsed.
Cool, when logic fails start directly insulting the person is trying to discuss with you about a topic. Really good way to treat people...
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't know how good it is, but if you don't like it, maybe don't do that?
It wasn't me who thought I'm thinking "just code it bro" when it comes to a legislation (though it's coding how programs change, as they lack the capacity to follow corporate directions by themselves), neither that it's necessary to educate an adult about that the EU is not a game publisher.
Meanwile you still ignore the part that the EU can make competent laws regarding any field through involvement of experts and multiple rounds of discussion of the laws (with every member state having a say and veto right if they don't like the current form).
We ran out of material for an intelligent discussion at that point. I don't know what I can do about the facts (?) you said, and you talked to me like I'm a child to top that off. You're seemingly absolutely ignorant about the legislative process and the ever-growing examples of EU regulations of multiple fields and trades, despite - the EU not being studio, corporation or firm focusing on those fields and trades. Yet they manage along those laws.
I don't think it's you who's supposed to be acting hurt here, crying about direct attacks while it was you who insinuated that I'm clueless on multiple levels, talking about changing topics why it was you ignoring the EU's role in making an EU law. You can't just got hurt when I tell you that it's rude of you.
Comment has been collapsed.
Huh? I'm from Poland and signed it just fine using eID, what's the issue you're encountering?
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, then it's a problem with signing via bank (PKO BP to be exact) logging, I suspect. When I just log to my account, it works fine, but when I try to sign the petition and it redirects me to a signing page, it says, that the logging is wrong. I've created a ticket with them to investigate... btw, it has a number well over 4 million, so they seem to be busy, lol.
Comment has been collapsed.
For example, in Spain we have a law against piracy that assumes every single storage device is going to be used for piracy, so you will get charged more money when getting storage hardware becuase they assume your are going to pirate content with it...
Source? You may provide a Spanish source, too. All I can find about it is that it's the usual 'compensation for private copying' (legal, no piracy) which also exists in other European countries and goes back to a time when cassettes were the shit.
Comment has been collapsed.
Let me look for it, i think it was released during the time of Rajoy presidency? Not 100% sure.
Comment has been collapsed.
It's called "canon digital".
Here is a link to an article: https://www.adslzone.net/reportajes/internet/canon-digital-espanya/
Here the link from a official source from the govern that includes how much you pay per avaliable storage in the device: https://www.newtral.es/canon-digital/20230330/
Comment has been collapsed.
That's nothing new. In Poland, since 1994 (20 years before we joined EU), we have a law where each sale of a printer, copy machine, scanner or printing paper ends with a cut to a "reprographic fund" that is then distributed between artists and publishers. The same "fee" was added later to all storage media (HDD, SDD, VHS, CDs etc). This is meant to compensate authors for you being able to copy your own book, and pass it forward. It has nothing to do with "they assume everyone is a pirate!". It's EU-level law.
A private copying levy (also known as blank media tax or levy) is a government-mandated scheme in which a special tax or levy (additional to any general sales tax) is charged on purchases of recordable media.
Comment has been collapsed.
While the first article brings in more opinions and interpretations and thus piracy is mentioned, the second doesn't, only mentions "compensation for losses due to copying". The law which is linked in the first article doesn't speak of piracy either. It's about the legal copying (backups, gifting of very few copies within friends and family). The most important recent change seems to be regarding the funding of this fee. For some years Spain paid it from the country's budget, leading to companies and self-employed persons paying for it, too. Since it's supposed to be a compensation for private copying only, the EU requested Spain to change it again.
It looks like Spain only started to collect this compensation in the 90ies when CDs came up. Here in Germany it goes back to the 70ies already, due to audio and VHS cassettes.
Comment has been collapsed.
Went to sign this, because I guess it's worth a shot. And of course the EU doesn't support the most common digital ID in Sweden - so I had to sign up for a new one and that requires waiting for verification. Nothing is ever easy with the EU.
Comment has been collapsed.
You don't have to use any kind of digital ID to sign, or at least there is another option shown here in Germany. Wasn't that one on your page?
Comment has been collapsed.
That was my mistake, I now saw that you could do it without ID. There's two options.
Comment has been collapsed.
I stopped playing online/multiplayer games over half a year ago, I recommend it.
Comment has been collapsed.
BUMP! It's ridiculous that this needs to be fought for.
Comment has been collapsed.
Ultimately, while I don't really think The Crew, for example, is any different than the plethora of other online only games that get shut down on the regular and have access revoked for all intents and purposes, nor do I buy into the hyperbole that now all Ubi games are suddenly at risk of having access revoked, I do think they should all be required to allow private servers to be operated by interested parties. Since the companies are obviously not interested in hosting servers any longer. And single player components should not be allowed to be gated behind being online only.
Comment has been collapsed.
Just so people are informed, here are the opinions of the person who is starting the petition:
https://youtu.be/tUAX0gnZ3Nw
This person is making wild claims, in the recent video and the last one. He has clearly a opinion and started a campign against what he don't likes, but their claims are insane and not realistic.
Please, do some research and remember that what he want is what he wrote, you can't go and release a half assed law to do it, or like this guy is doing throw it at the face of EU and say "Go do your thing" (damn, he even says it on the video (Here is the proposal, they will work out how to implement it.)
From a rational point of view is insane. Please, consider things before you sign anything, watch the video and see that what he claims is just simply delusional and wild.
Comment has been collapsed.
It is not. And if you see all the videos since this started, you will see that this campaign was VERY deliberate, and prepared with lawyers and advisers. Please everybody, SIGN! this is a real opportunity.-
Comment has been collapsed.
Sir, jsut watch the video. Look, i'm even going to play you the exact moment he says it:
https://youtu.be/mkMe9MxxZiI?t=80
He doesn't have the law full prepared and they don't specify anything. They are making wild claims and what he explains and shows goes agains the intellectual property and will hurt developers in many many ways.
Just because someone decides to develop a game doesn't turn magically into a multi million dollar company, you have to look every single possible case scenario bedore you try to regulate this things, and if you read EXACTLY what is on the petition (In this very same page https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#) you see that there is absolutely no content posted here about how to make this work.
The man in the video, if he is the one who started the petition is making thing in a emotional way, that you can see in his videos... Don't be fooled by influencers, do your own reserch and make your own opinions on it.
Imagine the game has some licenced music, the developers would have to pay the licence indefinitely if the game is a live service game as the claim wants, but if the studio shuts down, how are they going to do that?
Comment has been collapsed.
The part you are pointing is, pretty pointless.
And the other video, well... You are taking a FIVE year old video that was criticised and improved by... Ross himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAD5iMe0Xj4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w70Xc9CStoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-g1_nZKC-k
You have to watch at least all this videos to understand this campaign, and if you are not going to do anything, you can at least leave the people that want a change do the work without pointless criticism.
Comment has been collapsed.
Imagine the game has some licenced music, the developers would have to pay the licence indefinitely if the game is a live service game as the claim wants, but if the studio shuts down, how are they going to do that?
How are they currently removing songs from games sold as CDs, when they run out of license? They don't. They just let them be. They won't sell more copies to get more money, obviously. But people who paid for media are still able to use it. If you buy Queen album and old publisher loses the right to publish. Are people required to destroy their CDs? You paid for a license to listen to a song, you have the license to listen to a song. It's a "new" trend with publishers, where they want to sell us content, but also keep a hold over the content. And be able to withdraw our freedom to use the content we paid for anytime they like.
Another option (apart from either paying for more than 2 years of a song license or not taking away something we paid for) - devs could simply program the game to stop using a specific song in 5 or 10 years when the license expires. If they are absolutely required by an artist to do so.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is the problem, that people want one thing but doesn't want to understand how it works.
Live service game = / = offline game
Different laws and requeriments are applied to different cases.
Your idea of "then can just code it" would mean that the game has to check the system clock to see if the song licence is valid if $curdate =/= $songdate then delete the songs from the game (they will have to delete it, you can't just disable it because the song will still be downloaded in the game folder.
Now, if you change the date on your system to 5 years after, then you will lose the songs of the game.
Do you think that is a good idea?
And don't say that this things never happend before, because you can simply see how it happend with Forza Horizon 4 recently that you just werent able to buy anymore because music licencing.
Comment has been collapsed.
And don't say that this things never happend before, because you can simply see how it happend with Forza Horizon 4 recently that you just werent able to buy anymore because music licencing.
The end of licensing leads to either stop of sales of this product or the licensed content has to be removed. It's only about selling, not usage. Play an old GTA, NFS or other racing game that's not being sold anymore and you can still listen to the songs.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's not what the regulation is aiming to achieve though. It doesn't want nor expect developers to sell and support their games forever, not at all. There's a FAQ on the website, it's quite informative.
What it requires is that the developer doesn't make the game unplayable. So if I buy a game today, the developer can't take it from me, make it impossible to play (unless they ban me for cheating or whatever, that's not the point).
The example used is The Crew. It was a game you pay for, multiplayer only. Ubisoft shut down the servers and now nobody can play it.
The regulation requests that developers make their game playable before they end support. For example, by releasing dedicated servers for a multiplayer-only game. They don't need to provide further support, develop new content, or even keep selling the game. The point is to make it playable for everyone who already has it.
They will still be able to remove games from sale after a music license expires.
Comment has been collapsed.
The game lasted 10 full years, a live service game. In the ToS of any single live service game it says you buy a licence to play the game, you don't buy the actual game. Again, the FAQ on their website can say watever the want, what they are presenting to the EU is a completly different thing, the intention might be good, the execution is absolutely atrocious from a legal point of view.
Lelt's read what is here (https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#):
""This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.
Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.""
That is what is presented to the EU, not the FAQ in a webpage, now tell me.
Now, this doesn't talk in any kind of specific case scenario, this affects every single online game ever created.
He invokes "Article 17 §1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union", that claims:
“No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss.”
Tell me, who is beeing deprived from his possesion? Noone is deleting the game from your account, you still posses the game.
Under what Ross is claiming the following games would have to be resurrected by the developers so we can play them, even after the servers are closed:
DAWNGATE
PlanetSide Arena
Hyper Scape
Gigantic
WWE 2k15
NBA 2k14
SolForge
Defiance
ForzaHorizon 1
Age Of Empires Online
Star Gate Resistance
OutRun Online
Damn, every single game that was sold on the Wii now defunct store.
Also Ross insults and disrespects politicians in his videos (literally saying they like wasy wins and as far as it doesn't involve gamblig onr childrens they don't care) and attacked other people that is agains the way this proposal is written ON THE OFFICIAL PROPOSAL SITE.
Do you know about "Kony 2012"? This is the same thing.
Comment has been collapsed.
ToS is not the law. The Netflix ToS could say you have to give up your first born child to buy a subscription, doesn't mean you have to do it or it's the law. Even if it was, does it mean law makers cannot touch it?
""This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union (or related features and assets sold for videogames they operate) to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.
Specifically, the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers, before providing reasonable means to continue functioning of said videogames without the involvement from the side of the publisher.""
That in no way implies the developer has to keep hosting the game and care for it permanently. They have to "leave said videogame" in a functional state. It's like you didn't read the second paragraph at all.
Tell me, who is beeing deprived from his possesion? Noone is deleting the game from your account, you still posses the game.
That's arguable, and the best example we have (that I know of) is The Crew. You technically have the game in your library but it is completely unplayable. The idea is to prevent that, to keep it playable even when the publisher leaves it.
You seem to argue that because a bad thing hasn't happened yet, there cannot be laws against the bad thing ever happening. We need to wait for a developer to completely shut down a game people paid for without giving them an option to play it anymore. And if it already happened (eg. The Crew), it isn't word-for-word- identical as the initative's request so nothing should be done.
Under what Ross is claiming the following games would have to be resurrected by the developers so we can play them
Is that part of the initiative? I haven't seen it wanting to be retroactive.
Do you know about "Kony 2012"? This is the same thing.
Do you mean it wasn't real, or the internet drama about it was overblown? I can't see a point to be made either way.
Comment has been collapsed.
"That in no way implies the developer has to keep hosting the game and care for it permanently. They have to "leave said videogame" in a functional state. It's like you didn't read the second paragraph at all."
"That's arguable, and the best example we have (that I know of) is The Crew. You technically have the game in your library but it is completely unplayable. The idea is to prevent that, to keep it playable even when the publisher leaves it."
·You have the game, you still own the game. What you don't have is the backend of the game, and you can't hold a developer hostage to make his game work in every single case-scenario.
I'm not talking only about games, i'm talking about software in general. You treat the people behind the game development as a product, when they are not.
Imagine you buy antivirus software today, next year the company shuts down... With this law, it will require the software company to keep updating the virus database so users can keep using it or make the virus database local so they can run it on their own, wich is not realistic or possible at all.
And by what you are saying about Lord's Resistance Army insurgency denotes that you don't really know what happend or the history behind it, i will make it wasy for you to understand.
Kony 2012 was a fan made documentary released to figh agains something that was long time done and not active anymore, but the documentary explained and showed everything as the events were currently happening
There was a big revolt online on social media, people put stickers and posters all over the place with Kony 2012, and if you didn't support the movement they would harras you and say that you defend lords of war and that kind of things. It was a big social media movement from the director of the documentary, people belived it and later was found that he made it that way.
Again, i'm not against the ideals of what Mr Ross is trying to achieve, but the languaje used to do it is terrible and has no legal working at all.
Just watch this part of the head of the petition video: https://youtu.be/mkMe9MxxZiI?t=193
And here is an image to make it easier for you:
Do you think that this is a correct language from the head of the proposal to make? This is the person who plans to change a billion dollar industry? And people claiming he has a legal team and they worked really hard to set it up. Stop joking, this is ridiculous way to talk about the future or proposal of a law.
Comment has been collapsed.
It seems like what he is really saying is developers need to leave access to all game functionality available. They're not saying the dev has to continue supporting it. What they can't do is shut down a game and not allow gamers to host their own servers and such. People can buy and host their own servers for MP, modders can fix compatibility issues that might come up in the future; but the dev needs to make all aspects of the game they sold available to the buyer, to play, mod, host, etc...
Comment has been collapsed.
All private servers created legally need a licence agreement with the developers. The developers of the game would need to have support and if anyone has a problem with the game, where do you think they will go first?
Exactly, the developers of said game.
They will need to have support to take care of said tickets, that would increase the cost.
They will need to develope the game with the tought that it will be required by law that you can set up your game server in any machine with the game beein in a "playable" state.
This isn't just a toggle you turn on or off in your game, any game that has the server connection set up strictly into the game will have it really really hard to port it into a open source networking experience (what will be required to make the law work, as you will need access to all the networking configuration).
You can't just pick up a game and say "instead of connection the the game official server, give me the option to connect anywhere i want" and expect it to work flawlessly.
It would require extra development time by the devs, and the cost isn't small.
Again, the idea might be good, the wording and execution is terrible made. People think this is good because "i want to play the game i paid for" but if you don't read the game ToS when you buy a game, what do you expect?
In any online multiplayer live service game it clearly says that you purchase a licence to play the game, not the game itself. What this person wants to achieve it's directly take the intelectual property and work of someone so he can enjoy it indefinitely.
People will be able to set up servers and charge for it, even if the game studio fails, all the workers have to be fired and have economic difficulties, but hey! some random on the internet can just set up a server in his home, charge 10€ per user so he can keep a server up and running and make a living with it.
Where is the fairnes on that? Doesn't people have right to decide how use their work and intelectual property? It's better to just steal other people work?
Don't just think on what YOU want to achieve because you want to play The Crew after 10 years, even after The Crew 2 and The Crew 3 were released and you have the chance to keep playing this game, you have to think on every single step to take in all possible case scenarios, because that what a law is made for and you will be playing with the lives of the people living from the game industry.
Again, imagine you buy a house with direct sight of the beach 10 years ago, now someone buy the land infront of your hose and builds flats, now you don't see the beach but your neighbors flats... You go to the government and demand to take the flats down becuase when you paid the house you were told that you got to see the beach from it. You don't care what the people in the flats do or happend to them, you just want what you paid for.
Maybe explainging the problem with physical assets makes more sense to people understanding.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's inaccurate. A simple, "we are no longer supporting this game but you are welcome to host your own servers and access the developer tools as you please" is all that's needed lol. The rest of what you're saying is nonsensical in the face of that simple fact. And it's a weird hill to die on.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is not how software development works at all.
Comment has been collapsed.
No, the petition doesn't want what you think it wants. The petition doesn't say any specific case-scenario. The petition goes against any online game...
I'm not going to stop argue about this with uninformed people. It's clear that the person that started the petition doesn't have any kind of legal background or video game development background and don't understand how the industry works.
The person who made the petition is just a end user with resentment against something and looking at the case from a absolutely subjective way (as you can see on their videos over the years).
You can't decide other people lives because you have hatred against something you don't like, it will lead to unrepairable damage.
Do you know that every Google Play (android) game is a live service game? As it has to be linked with a google account and server to verify the integrity of the application.
You have to make mobile games also be able to host the servers of said games.
What this petition can lead to is "No more online service games beeing sold inside Europena Union" or "Creating a pocket server with European countries, like it currently happens with China, so you can only play with the people that has the same laws as you."
Either way is damaging for the players, developers and the Internet as we know it.
Comment has been collapsed.
<le sigh>
You can just admit you're wrong. Nobody will hold it against you.
Comment has been collapsed.
And you can try to understand how licencing works and noone will hold it against you.
And yes, as you can see in the comment people is literally holding it against me and attacking me personally because my statements doesn't align with theirs... It's what you are doing right now.
Comment has been collapsed.
I see everyone attempting to assist you with your inability to grasp what everyone is talking about. And I see people responding to you in a way that is a lot less condescending than the way you're addressing them. But go ahead and play the victim card, lol.
Comment has been collapsed.
Ahem, that's actually exactly how politics works. A problem or topic comes up. They analyze it, debate it and see if they find a majority in support of one approach. What exactly is so insane about this?
Do you think that initiatives provided by citizens are pretty much finalized laws in all details and the EU parliament would then just vote if they support it or not?
How realistic the provided ideas in the video are is irrelevant, the only part that matters is the core intention. Politicians only pick up that part and build something entirely new upon that, in a process lasting multiple years.
Comment has been collapsed.
So for you it doesn't matter how much destruction it causes as far as the idea it wants to accomplish is done.
It's like the people saying "Tourists go home!", "Fuck tourists!", "We don't want tourism", their idea is to get completly rid of tourism because they think that by doing that the price of housing will go down inmediatly.
These people doesn't care that the tourism in the country they are trying to get rid is represents nearly the 75% of the national Gross Domestic Product, if they get rid of tourism the 75% of the income in all the country would be gone affecting absolutely everyone that lives from it, from small bars to hotels.
These kind of decisiones doesn't only affect the people with money, but everyone.
If what the dude in the video wants ends up getting accomplished, what we will have in Europe will be either, region restricted game packets lacking the multiplayer sided of the game or not beeing able to buy the game, like some games in Germany for example.
I repeat, the idea might be good, but it's poorly redacted and doesn't have a specific objective set, the idea this person has is just "Live service games bad", "Online games are a bad idea because if i want to play a 10yo MMO game alone at home i need to be able to do so".
When you buy a game, you get a licence to play the game, you don't buy the IP...
Imagine the main company every time a problem occurse in these private servers, people will go to the game official forum or contact support saying "X" doesn't work and can flood the services of said companies with things that are no longer related to the main game company in any way, producing cost to the company even years after the game is no longer active by their side.
Comment has been collapsed.
Must I really repeat again that what the dude requested or demanded in his video is 100% irrelevant?
Comment has been collapsed.
But he is litterally the one who made the citizen initiative...
Comment has been collapsed.
So what? Do people sign the video or the letter actually provided for the initiative?
And once more, even the content of the letter would only provide a general topic. Of course politicians would listen to the affected industry too, or what do you think that lobbyists do?
So maybe stop blaming people just because you have no clue about the political process.
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't know why, but actually the guy isn't listed as organiser on the initiative's page.
Comment has been collapsed.
I know. He is also hosting the website, but he isn't listed on the citizen's initiative.
Comment has been collapsed.
What are you talking about, he claims several times that is his initiative and he redacted it.
Is he lying on his videos and public announcements?
Comment has been collapsed.
Conclude or imply what you want, I only stated that he isn't listed there and that I don't know the reason. That's all.
Comment has been collapsed.
I've been doing my part for like 4 years XD. I didn't buy any game since like 2020
Comment has been collapsed.
That is the proper way to show that you don't want that business model.
The way this person is handling it is just going completly to the other extreme wich is not how it should be done.
If you don't want something done buy it and show you don't want it with your wallet, don't go directly to the government and say "i don't like it, so everyone else shoudn't like it".
As people is trying to take me out of context, i say it again, the idea is good, the execution is terrible.
Comment has been collapsed.
europeans could.
EU j u s t c a n ' t
anything. anything slightly modern regulated by EU? no grazie.
no.
nope.
LE NOPE.
none! (<-- napoletano)
Comment has been collapsed.
A universal 14-day refund on online purchases stems from EU regulation.
A minimum 2 year guarantee on products sold in the EU.
The right to be forgotten, which has evolved into GDPR and data protection in general. There's a lot of misconception about it where people think "oh it's these annoying cookie pop-ups, damn the EU!" but in reality it stops services from taking whatever data they want without informing the user. The pop-ups exist to give a person the chance to say "no, don't take all my data".
The effect might be subtle and some people don't care, but a lot of these changes are under the hood, where the user never notices (and doesn't know how bad data harvesting was before). I saw a change myself; the company I buy electricity from required an email every time I buy from them, and an opt-out (so active by default) bullshit marketing scheme, along with a long ass terms of service. After GDPR the bullshit marketing scheme went opt-in, and a few months later they removed it and the email requirement altogether.
They also forced electronics manufacturers to use USB-C for charging by 2024 in the EU, which forced Apple to stop using their proprietary Lighting cables worldwide. I believe it will also include laptops, so in 2024 you'll be able to use the same charger for your phone, tablet, and laptop.
Then there's the obvious stuff like food safety, environmental regulations, human rights, etc. but I'm not at all qualified to argue for them.
Comment has been collapsed.
This is it. Exactly this.
Also, this is a start not the end. They are STILL not implementing this stuff for all single player games (only The Crew and Dark spore comes to my mind), but they will, if we let them. Also some shtty practices from companies like Blizzard should be more difficult to implement, with this kind of legal frame.
Comment has been collapsed.
I have the same take and now in this forum people treat me like i'm Hitler personified.
The petition is written poorly and makes no sense, people here thinks that it will only affect AAA games and millionaries, but then it will only hurt the rest of us.
Comment has been collapsed.
People here know nothing about development and entrepreneurship.
Apparently private servers are a few extra line of code, easy do toggle.
Apparently if you make a marvel game and on your community server a modded ironman fucks a sheep, disney won't nuke you, your family and your town from the orbit.
Also people in the gaming industry should work for what is right, whatever that means, BOOO working for money
Also apparently is very hard to pretend ubisoft doesn't exist and buy only from decent publishers
Comment has been collapsed.
Apparently it's difficult to imagine that a new law would only influence future products, so that developers can adjust to make it work. You know, just as regulations have a grace period for every other product too.
Apparently it's difficult to understand that such a regulation to preserve games implies that they remain unchanged. You know, just like museums also don't "update" their exhibits. So yeah, sue if someone should do something as you described. Seems you found another non-issue. Congrats!
Apparently ... huh? You know that every industry has to follow regulations too? That they have to put some effort into doing "what is right"?
Also apparently it's very hard to pretend that Ubisoft isn't the only publisher that eliminates games and to make sure that all of them are legally required to act like "decent publishers".
My oh my, I think it's about time to ignore you guys and your "arguments". So much nonsense.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's going to be my last answer to you too and of course it's going to be irrelevant ;)
Just a fun fact: dead by daylight, quite an old game but still very active has original and licensed characters form movies and other videogames, some of those characters don't have custom skins, or can't be changed/reworked because of strict license agreements, that results in Freddy Krueger being a weak meme character because its abilities can be only tweaked and it's quite hard to buff him.
Imagine dealing for a license and saying something like "yeah I can't promise Freddy Krueger won't be singing Baby Shark dressed like a panda..."
So, you know, thinks are usually complicated
Apparently ... huh? You know that every industry has to follow regulations too? That they have to put some effort into doing "what is right"?
Also think twice about what you want, because if they rule that a paid game must have a private server feature a set of possible scenarios are:
- We don't get The Crew 5
- EU doesn't get The Crew 5
- We get The Crew 5 as F2P and you pay for fuel with micro transactions
Every industry has to follow the law, but exists only if it's profitable.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, people here is like "Oh you work making online games? You are a monster then." instead of going against the direct company or person who produced the problem.
They just think that it doesn't take development time and resources to be able to set up private servers able to support any kind of game you make.
They forget what happend with Garrys mod and Disney, or Palworld and pokemon mods. They just don't care what happens to other people, they just want their objective and they will trample over anyone to get it instead of trying to understand it.
Comment has been collapsed.
Very misleading subject to "save gaming" this is just about a multiplayer aspect.
A "chance" to get it going, and even so there will always be companies that won't work helping to keep them up especially those that go bankrupt because they can't.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think you misunderstand. The regulation would require a developer to release their servers, or whatever is required for the game to keep operating, but after that they can leave it. They don't need to provide further support, servers, bug fixes, or spend any money on it. The option to do all that is given to the players, much like in the past where a developer would include dedicated servers with the game from the very beginning.
There is a point to be made for cases when the developers goes bankrupt and simply can't release a server package, but that doesn't mean the regulation shouldn't exist.
Comment has been collapsed.
Howdy. I'm one of the official organizers of it and was planning to post this tomorrow, but just spotted it here now.
I'll try and answer any questions ya'll might have :)
Comment has been collapsed.
I'll close this thread once you create yours or I can keep it open so you can reply to the comments. It's up to you.
Comment has been collapsed.
Hey there! Opened my own thread indeed. Thanks Caesar :) https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/939lj/stop-killing-games-an-eu-petition-and-how-easy-it-is-for-you-to-save-games
Comment has been collapsed.
I think we need to define what qualifies as a "dead game"
It's a word that's thrown around a lot and based on useless statistics. I have seen many games that did not do so well on lunch and then exploded a few years later. Also games that dipped in player base and became popular all over again.
In the case of the Crew. It was only delisted because it was better than the Crew 2 and Motorfest combined.
Comment has been collapsed.
Dead game is a game you can't play anymore. It's dead. No matter thar you have the physical copy or a digital legally obtained one. It's a game that wasn't pirated, or saved in any means. Like The Crew or Darkspore.
Comment has been collapsed.
Louis Rossmann decided to talk about it. He did talk about planned obsolescence in games before.
Comment has been collapsed.
Watched it yesterday, should've added it to the post. Thanks
Comment has been collapsed.
Signed.
Before trying the "Fill in the form" option, I tried the "use the eID of your country" option but my country's eID 2FA app is so shitty that the QR scan needed for linking the account just doesn't work.
Comment has been collapsed.
sadly, it affects singleplayer games too. The Crew was perfectly playable as a singleplayer experience, and it got shutdown just because they didnt want to support the servers anymore (which should be fine, if they didnt shut down the singleplayer campaign along with the servers).
Comment has been collapsed.
A YouTuber is taking an initiative against publishers killing multiplayer games and getting away with it. He made a petition that has the chance to get legislated if it gets enough votes. Make sure to watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkMe9MxxZiI
The petition is open only to people with EU citizenship but it is worth sharing plus a small multiplayer giveaway for the trouble.
Update from Luis Rossmann
Discussion moved to: https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/939lj/stop-killing-games-an-eu-petition-and-how-easy-it-is-for-you-to-save-games
Comment has been collapsed.