We can only hope.
The Scottish voters weren't brave enough last time around.
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It was bravely, or lack of. It was merely misplaced optimism, the flawed belief that "it can't be much worse than it is just now".
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Scotland will only be truly free when it moves to mars
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Scotland bottled it, had the chance to go it alone and totally bottled it. as for the UK leaving the EU, i think we should.
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So...leave the U.K and then join the E.U .
Sounds like a well thought out plan.
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i heard scotland would leave the uk for sure to reenter the eu then
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Yep. Now, Scotland will hold another referendum and calls for unity and solidarity from England will carry much less weight. Ireland may be next as well - why not reunify the island plus remain in the EU?
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If you look how votes looks in UK http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160624070655-brexit-results-map-tease-final-02-exlarge-169.png
Scotland and Ireland will remain in EU
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This. I really, really fervently hope that we leave the EU. Whether we are better off or not in the long run, I think that our best chance lies outside.
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Sorry pall but this ain't gonna happen. Leftist from EU sadly are not going let UK go.
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As mexican we don't have any interest, on the lonely star state, politicians in other hand...
Are like sharks sniffing blood.
get it sharks, hahaha funny me, help I need watch some new show!
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They should leave. It's not my business, but being in the EU seems to only be hurting them.
EDIT: Goddamn it, I knew I shouldn't have shared my opinion on the internet. I've wasted too much time on arguing now.
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I think quite the opposite, actually.
The EU is of tremendous benefit, has been and will be. The problem is that at one point idealism overtook rationalism, and the people in charge only looked at what the EU could one day be, and didn't focus on all the in-between steps to get there.
The easiest and most obvious example is the euro. Instead of starting with a handful of countries with somewhat similar economies (Germany/Denmark/Belgium/Netherlands; or even possibly Italy/Portugal/Spain), and slowly adding more countries as the currency became stabilized and as the countries strived to meet the required goals, they just went all in and tried to get every country in the EU onboard right away. Guidelines were created for financial metrics, but no enforcement mechanisms, or even verification. If I recall correctly, in the first year of the Euro's existence, not one country met the required fiscal targets.
The EU is in need of fixing, that's clear as day. But it's better to fix than to abolish. Same goes for leaving the EU.
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I've learned that you can't trust a system to fix itself, someone's gotta make a move in order for something to change. Britain has nothing to gain by staying in the EU, it's just a drain on their resources. I honestly don't have any stake in this, but there is no reason that the EU can't be fixed by leaving it. Sure, you could sit inside the boat, desperately trying to board up and plug the holes, but it's a hell of a lot safer to do that from the outside.
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Nothing to gain? Seriously? You don't think that the UK benefits from a peaceful and stable Europe?
Or do you either think that those things are granted or that others should carry the burden of contributing to those target all alone, while UK should reap the benefits for free?
Yes, you give up some resources and some sovereignty for Europe. So do all others. Some more, some less. A real bargain, in comparison to the price Europe regularly had to pay, before the EU.
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So you're saying Europe would spiral into war and chaos without the EU? Seriously?
Honestly I don't think you understand that people don't like death. They don't need to be part of a special club to want to avoid it.
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Yeah, we see how "people not liking death" works for those all around Europe's borders. And why exactly should we doubt that forces trying to tear the EU apart right now, shouldn't result in even more hostility if they should succeed?
Why do you think that national egoism, selfishness and a lack of solidarity would result in something better than the EU? It might not lead to war, but I dare you to convince me that it would improve the situation for everyone.
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I would very much enjoy discussing this further with you, but honestly, it's not my business, it's Great Britain's, and I've already spent too much time on it, I should be focusing on my finals. Sorry, but thanks for the conversation, it's always good. I'm sure someone else is willing to talk about it. Sorry again, have a good one.
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That's an easy way out, man. Golwar is obviously spot on, and there is so much more to it than "just" peace. Extremely favorable trade agreements is another. It's honestly sad to see people waving the nay sayer flag, but then when confronted, they have nothing to argue with.
If you really believe the EU is shit, then you should truly read up on it, instead of just listening to ukip and taking their word for granted.
Surely, the EU needs to be fixed in many areas, but that does not mean it's a bad concept that we could do better without.
But hey, good luck with the finals I guess.
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The UK has enough weight in the world to manage their own trade agreements, they do not ne-
Fuck, I'm doing it again, I need to get back to work. Why do I even give a shit about this? Fuck this I ain't even looking at this thread again, thanks for the good luck wishes, or whatever.
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Forgot to mention, if you really do want to talk about it, feel free to add me on steam, and we can talk the shit out of it later.
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Thank you. It is so disappointing how simple minded most thoughts about the EU are. It is "a monstrosity", because it is complex. It is "undemocratic", because the commission isn't voted directly. And even weirder is when people think that a more nationalistic and isolated approach will give them more weight and more independence, while the opposite is true.
Just see CheeseButcher's answer below, suggesting that the UK has "enough weight in the world" ... yeah, they will indeed manage to get their own trade agreements. But they'd be the solicitant in any exchange.
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Yeah, I wasn't going to reply to him, as he's just evading, but that's just the thing. Of course they'll get trade agreements. Literally any country can get those. It's how favorable they are that counts. Not a lot of things are grown in Britain, so they import a ton of stuff. All that stuff will just get way more expensive. But such things are never mentioned or thought off by the naysayers. It's all hurr durr foreigners take our jobs and we pay money to save others but never get anything back, which is a huge pile of ignorant crap.
Now, I agree the EU micromanage too much, and there are a ton of things that needs to be fixed, but it also does a ton right. It's not a one way street. Not by a long shot.
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There are difinitly benefits from being in the EU, but of course the same goes the other way as well. I'm personally not that happy with how the EU is doing things, but it's at least better then having all seperate countries (well, they're still seperate, but joined together).
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How? How is it better than being separate?
Everything the EU offers could be achieved without having the disadvantages.
System's just jamming it up for everyone needlessly.
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UK economically speaking would gain something leaving the EU, but on the long run UK might be on the loser's side.
Right now US, Japan, Germany, France, UK, China, Italy, Canada and Spain are the few of the most industrialized countries in the world but if you look at the prospects you may notice that small countries like Japan, France, Italy and Spain have really low GDP/debt rates compared to US or China (or well even Canada for what it's worth). UK is doing "well" just because of it's huge past (and present) colonial influence which is not going to last much longer.
The EU is not the best economic union Europe could see, but on the other hand you can't just take the most rich countries, mesh them together to create a huge economic union and fuck everyone else around you (like Ireland, Portugal, Greece, etc). The USA have these problems too, with states like Louisiana (which is quite "poor") next to Texas for example; they won't just drop Louisiana and create a Californian+Texan conglomerate...
The true goal of an EU should be to get near the idea of a USE (United States of Europe) but this can't be done just yet because EU countries have still too different laws and economies, on the law side it's decades that EU is giving out EU directives each country has to implement on their respective law system, on the economic side the thing is a mess because of both countries like Greece, with huge GDP/debt values after they "literally" cheated on their values for years and UK or Germany (they now seem to understand the issue) that are doing quite well and don't give a fuck on how poorer countries are doing.
To get past this mess EU has to listen both parties and accommodate accordingly.
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"Guidelines were created for financial metrics, but no enforcement mechanisms, or even verification."
That's completely false.
There were guidelines and enforcement mechanisms, it's just that they were either blatantly faked (Italy) or faked and ignored (Greece).
Also adding economies like Portugal, Spain, and Italy has not only been bad for the Euro, but even worse for those countries.
The only real beneficiary from the Euro has been Germany which has reaped the benefits of being an exporting nation with a weakened currency - it's a brutal legacy of the Euro that Germany's current prosperity is heavily dependent on the suffering of poorer Eurozone countries.
Denmark isn't and probably never will be in the Euro by the way - in fact Denmark has more opt-outs from the EU than the UK does.
The EU is of marginal benefit to the UK for many reasons, most notably economic.
The UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, and in particular Germany.
Meanwhile in the service sector, in which the UK is strongest, France has effectively blocked the completion of the single market to the detriment of the UK. So as a result the EU doesn't even have its famed 'single market'.
Had the UK also joined Schengen and the Euro, I don't think the vote would even be close.
Both would have been disastrous for the UK.
As for the EU being 'fixed' - it's not going to happen, in fact it's got progressively worse over the decades as more and more power has been transferred to unelected officials and QMV has replaced national vetoes.
The Greek crisis laid bare the true anti-democratic nature of the EU.
And Cameron was desperate for a fig-leaf of reforms and even with the threat of Brexit (and the 2nd biggest net contributor, biggest army, biggest diplomatic service, UN Sec Council permanent member, etc) walked away with almost nothing.
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I think I may have failed to adequately explain.
I meant italy/spain/portugal as just those three countries, separate from the rest (they had and have similar economies) as an alternative possibility to just the northern european countries. I think if the Euro had started smaller, like the EU (originally only 6 countries), particularly with the fairly similar economies/cultures of Netherlands/Belgium/Germany, or maybe Sweden/Norway/Finland/Denmark, it would have been a lot more stable.
Now, there are a lot of other things wrong with the euro and with the EU, but the fact that northern europe's economy is quite different from southern europe is the source of a lot of problems. Right now, either wages in southern europe need to decrease, or wages in northern europe need to increase (aka inflation). Neither is likely to happen any time soon, for obvious reasons, and that's causing a major problem
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My personal point of view:
The EU is of tremendous benefit
for the G-driven/managed institutes (EC, ECB, ISM and all others behind some blurry acronym that control currency printing and distribution).
starting with a handful of countries with somewhat similar economies (Germany/Denmark/Belgium/Netherlands)
the idea behind G-imperialism. They failed twice with WW, now they are taking a different path.
tried to get every country in the EU onboard right away
because countries were seen as potential consumers/customers for the G-industry.
Unified currency (euro) and border-less economy would quickly help to empty all those packed store houses.
The EU is in need of fixing
I cannot agree more :)
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well, those points are pretty tough and arguable ^^
but it need's fixing. no matter what the basic intention was
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the euro currency is of terrible concequence to countries such as Portugal. Independently of how Germany & Co have exploited such countries as Portugal with it (though 'cause Pt are stupid and allow it), when in difficult economic times, countries such as Portugal can no longer relly on inflation and devaluation as a means to help the recovery process.
With all the issues in Europe right now, the EU will eventually collapse, thus I guess the earlier one leaves the better.
I'm of the opinion Germany may have a civil war sometime in the coming decades.
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I have no proper knowledge or position to say in this matter, but GB citizens should be allowed to choose what's best for themselves.
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A fine sentiment. Unfortunately we suffer from a dreadful education system, insane media coverage and an absurd deference to powerful people who are generally out for themselves. We probably shouldn't be allowed to count our own toes :P
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Well, the problem with "citizens should be allowed to choose" is that most of the voters do not have a detailed knowledge on what they vote and in such a situation the average person will go for 10% increased wages instead of long-term advantages (not talking only about the UK here).
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Southamerica already has, and we are doing pretty good.
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Well why not? It would be a great boost for their economy if they have to pay extra import/export fees every time they deliver things to Europe. It can only be good.
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+1
In addition they should not introduce the Euro. I am not sick of changing money.
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Their currency is stronger and more stable, thanks to London being one of the financial strongholds. Of course it'd be interesting to see what happened if most of those banks would just get up and set up shop in Luxembourg. (I don't really think they'd do that though.)
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Not anymore it ain't.
The Pound is on its lowest point since 30 years now, thanks to the result of Brexit. Also, the financial industry might suffer quite a bit due to the leave.
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Especially if Scotland decides to pack up and leave the UK for the EU…
Well, at least we know now that if Trump loses the elections, he still could be the next leader of England through UKIP, there are plenty enough short-sighted xenophobic populist brain-damaged voters there. :)
(I am a little disappointed though, the UK was often showcased as having the most rational, calm people. Looks like the football hooligans are closer to the real picture, eh?)
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They can exit the Union and retain financial privilage. Look at Norway or Switzerland. They are not in EU , yet they have few privilages as a members.
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True, but also at the expense of 1) being completely unable to decide on how the single market is run 2) being forced to accept some of the rules that both Norway and Switzerland comply with, including free movement of persons.
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Doesn't matter. I don't give EU more than 5 years xD
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Yep, leave. After all, history shown us numerous times that trying to be a small independent nation is the absolute best way to greatness. Like how the Hellenic Empire worked… okay, wrong example. Then Rome that educated and elevated all the provin— okay, wrong example again. Try something more modern…
I know, how the colony of independent American states managed to prosper— damn, they decided to stick together and form a large entity.
Hm…
I have it! Like how the British… er… decided to build a massive colony that covered a quarter of the planet and made a strong empire of it… So, why the fuck are they whining now when they were the ones who wanted to be attached to practically half the globe in the first place?
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Things change. The UK is a large economy and has a nice military, but they are still getting a lot more say in geopolitics than their current status would warrant, whether they like to accept reality or not.
(Of course I'm talking as a member of a nation whose leaders now think they can just tell the EU to do what we want with an economy and military that would last about 5 hours under a financial/warfare attack according to the most optimistic predictions…)
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Switzerland is a small independent nation that seems to be doing very well without the EU.
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They built their wealth on being independent, including financially. But as the international pressure is getting stronger to break the secrecy on all the accounts that park their tax-evading/washed money, it pretty much undermines their only real income. I mean, precision mechanical part manufacture is a great thing, but I doubt it would sustain their current levels of GDP.
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Hmm. I'd have to look into that more. I just got done watching the Brexit movie on YouTube. They make a good case, If I was British I'd want the hell out of the EU. Seems to be doing the British more harm than good.
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Like how some Texans made a convincing movie on how they should secede and form an independent country because Obama was elected? :) (Then again, what else would one expect from a bunch of blind Republicans but bitching and whining like a 3-year-old most of them mentally are?)
Or how Moore managed to make people believe 911 was some gods-knows-what high-level conspiracy?
You can make a convincing three-hour documentary on that the ISIS is actually totally right and fighting a just cause against an oppressionist Freemason-controlled decadent Western world, if your writer and director is good enough.
Remember the old urban myth about how people believed an alien invasion on a radio show, because it was acted in a convincing manner?
Brexit is like the Scotch independence: it may have benefits, but if it will turn into an actual vote, even if the "yes, get the fuck out" opinion will lead by 50% on the surveys, the voting will be just slightly favouring the "stay" option.
(And if I would want to turn into some conspiracy theorist, I would say that the result of that Scottish vote about a similar leave or stay option was so predictable along with the aftermath, it was almost painfully blatant. And of course now the "leave" would win, but alas, they cannot make another vote so soon, how sad. Yeah, right.)
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Not an argument. You'll have to attack their arguments specifically if you want to change my opinion. Have you seen the movie? Can you point out what they got wrong? Lets your hear your argument why they should stay in the EU.
I'm not the one you need to convince though, as I'm not a British voter.
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i watched 2 minutes now and its just a joke.
it pretends like the eu has absolute power over its member states which it does not have .
most eu laws are taken up by the sovereign member states by choice they are not forced on to them.
britain has numerous times rejected laws the eu has brought forth.
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The way I see it, is that right now, Cameron is the Branch Manager of a local Tesco. Inside his own branch of Tesco, he's got a fair free reign to arrange things how he wants, what goes in what aisle, what deals to promote heaviest. Maybe this week he'll have the cereals next to the bread, just to mix things up. Maybe he'll choose to only play WHAM! on the shop radio all week. Who knows. He's a bit crazy like that.
But he can't just go and change Tesco's name to Dave's Food and Booze Hut or change the prices too drastically. He can't suddenly decide that they now sell cars. That's all controlled by the higher ups. A committee of owners that, sure, they can't agree on anything, but that also means it filters out any extreme ideas.
"But maybe we need extreme ideas" I hear you say. But y'see, Dave is a bit of a dick. And what if we gave him total free reign, with nonone above him? What if he decides that the staff aren't working hard enough to "his" vision. So, let's not pay them this month. Their money can go into funding his own personal projects, such as ensuring that the bacon aisle is stocked only with pig heads. DIY bacon, he calls it, licking his lips and staring off into the middle distance. In fact, it's now mandatory. Every worker gets a pig head in place of payment. And he's the boss of it all, so no one can stop him!
So, while the higher ups might not be much use to the world, they dilute the madness of the individual.
Least, that's as far as I understand it all.
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I'm Greek, but I wanted to say that the European Union (if it can even be called a union) is a fraud. The rich help each other and feed on the poor. Every sane country should leave the European Union, before the European Union makes this country get bankrupt. -_-
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You don't have to be in the EU for this phenomenon, any place on earth will do. It's in the nature of humans.
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"I met the humans and ended up loving the animals". :/
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The Greeks are cowards. They should have decided to leave the EU since the beginning of the crisis. By now they would have already overthrown the results of the crisis and would be independent both economically and politically. Xalvades pou lene kai sto xorio mou.
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True that. Χαλβάδες Φαρσάλων. :P Greeks keep saying about the achievements of their ancestors, but they're not at all similar with their ancestors. They're cowards and worthless. Προφανώς δε βάζω τους πάντες στο ίδιο τσουβάλι. xD The Greeks of the older days were more decisive and brave. They wouldn't accept this shit that happens nowadays.
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well, i wouldn't put my hand on fire for that. As far as i have understood from reading history, they were always the same. Egoistes eimastan anekathen. In addition to that, cowardice has been added in our days. :/
Alla nai, safos, den mpainoun oloi sto idio tsouvali. Greeklish btw giati edo mesa exei arketous haters pros tin Ellada
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Βρε γράφε όπως θες. Kai as einai greeklish, les kai exei simasia. ;P
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polles oi mayres listes epeidi tolmisa 2 fores na grapso tin apopsi mou, opote de simferei.
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ego na deis. mexri tora, 49 exo mazepsei kai auto sumvainei kathe fora pou leo tin apopsi mou, les kai exoume diktatoria na poume. :P
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lol
kala eisai. eimai stis 172 kai ayksanontai! Tin proti pou eipa tin apopsi mou gia tis adelfes (tous leo sti xora mou den to vriskoume sosto na pantrevontai) me eriksan me vasi ta stoixeia pano apo 100 mayrismata! Tin deyteri poy milousa gia to elliniko xreos, efaga alles 30!
Kai i fasi poia einai? Tin imera pou milisa enantia sto na pantrevontai oi adelfes, ta reviews pou eixa grapsei eos tote pigan apo ta pliros thetika sta teleios arnitika! Tin idia mera! Milame gia tetoio hate edo. Opote leo etsi eiste? tha kratiso kai go to ratio sto 1/2 (sent/won) peripou kai ante geia.
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Analogos pos to eipes. Ok an eipes tin apopsi sou eugenika gia tous gamous ton omofulofilon, alla ama to eipes eironika/uvristika enantia stous omofulofilous, tote auto den einai sosto. Ama eipes apla oti de thes oi omofulofiloi na pantreuontai, tote entaksei. Auti einai i diafora tis apopsis apo to hate speech.
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Maybe work more and spend less of money which are not yours lazy pricks?
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If you're talking seriously right now, you're a complete asshole. Greeks are working 2042 hours per year, 1st place in Europe, 3rd in the world. Germans are working 1371 hours per year, last in the world. We have 26,6% unemployment in Greece. These are statistics from 2014. How much more we should work then? Who ate all those money? Us? Nope! The politicians and the banks ate all the money, mostly along with the German banks and the German businesses (Siemens especially). Still, wages keep decreasing every month, but prices and taxes keep increasing. So, if you're actually talking seriously, then please go to school or something and shut the f*ck up!
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Yes they should leave because EU = dictatorship. Leave before it's too late...
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Down with EU. It's tyranny of multinational companies and European commission.
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Come on, people ... give EU a chance ... remember: never had so long times of peace here! At least in one piece ...
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Yes, they will. And Turkey will take their place because our government (and half of the country) is retarded.
GB just pays extra tariff (tax) money for no reason right now, they know finance and they will leave the EU. They'll either use Swiss/Norwegian or Turkish system to keep the goods trade in EU. I hope they do, I like it there I'd like them to progress and take over the world :3
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Meh, the EU is just a joke to funnel money towards Germany.
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LOL! Towards Germany? Wrong direction! Must be joking ...
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I mean, Fraülein Merkel is kind of the de facto supreme ruler of the EU. and Germany benefits from the EU agreements imo, I'd say austria gets more screwed. Well, and countries such as Slovakia where the cost of living has almost doubled since the € was introduced.
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What has the € or Merkel to do with another government's failures?
I checked http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/slovak-republic/ and it seems that Slovakia has a severe problem with the the quantity of available housings, which results in the highest housing expenditures in the OECD. There are countermeasures for that problem.
But yeah, it's always the EU and those nasty Germans.
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Do you even know what you're talking about?
Golwar explained parts of it fairly well already, I'd just wanna add that Austria, which according to you got screwed so hard, is actually one of the countries having benefitted the most from the EU. The economic growth and wealth wouldn't have been possible without it. Since 2010, Austria's GDP has been constantly in the top five of Europe and by itself it would've had a hard time to realize that.
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He probably meant the trade advantages that the EU grants to Germany, resulting in our trade surplus.
Which is a valid reason, if he completely ignores that every other nation has the same advantages and that Germany manages a surplus with every other nation too, be it in the EU or not.
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They should leave. They don't want to commit themselves to the European idea as they only pick the things they like.
After a Brexit the UK will crash and burn which will hopefully make the EU stronger.
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Don't be silly U'K will be fine and least we won't be paying for other peoples house building in ex soviet countries.
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I wasn't aware Wales and Northern Ireland had Soviet histories.
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Eh?
I think that is known in the trade as a FAIL! :)
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Well I dunno, the EU builds infrastructure in both those countries. Using your money and that from other EU countries. But of course you already knew that because you're an informed voter that doesn't lift his opinions from the Daily Mail :)
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I will have to agree with the guy below you, if you only look at Brexit from just one point of view aka Daily Mail, The Sun or any other 'quality' publication, you're not getting the bigger picture. What I love is how every 'Leave-EU' voter forgets how the UK looked after WW2, a country struck by poverty and deprivation which started stabilising after the formation of EU. If you're gonna vote, read all points of view before you rush in because Daily Mail showed you an article of the Romanian Gypsy palaces or whatever. They're showing you 0.1% of benefits claimed, if that.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your response to a people wanting to forge their own surroundings rather than accepting dictates from a super-state is 'fuck them'. Why is that?
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British goverment always bails out EUs all the time, i think we should leave and stop all the people coming to live in the UK and taking our jobs and our money, we pay so much to the EU and only get small amount in return , im in for Leaving this EU crap !!!
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Put down the Daily Mail ffs. The British Government actively avoids bailing out the rest of the EU, benefits economically from immigration and given tariffless trade with other EU countries makes a massive profit on its contribution to the EU.
Anything else you'd like to be wrong about?
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German goverment* . Britain just cries and tries to get themelfs out of any actual work every time crisis occurs. You guys are sissies.
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Should I remind you when UK was struggling to find employment for jobs in the 'inferior' bracket? When British people were like 'Nah, we're not working in construction or cleaning, we'll just live on benefits instead'. The state in which the country is in now is the direct result of the laziness of the past. The immigrants are by no means at fault, at least not the hard working ones. ;)
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Do you think Great Britain will leave the EU? What do you the British people on Steam gifts think? Should Britain stay in the EU or leave?
-edit it appears Leave won 52% of the vote. Congrats Great Britain!
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