it would be britain's economic doom.
if it leaves the eu its entire financial market will collapse.(and that's a big part of its economy)
all the banks will go to germany or france.
its almost like france deciding to get rid of nuclear power .
also i think the whole brexit thing is just a clever way for the conservatives to get reelected.(we are against the eu. pure populism.)
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So wrong on the financial services front. The EU has tried to curtail all the corruption and implement transaction tax regulation on UK banks etc for years and it would never be allowed as it would sink the UK economy the next day.
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that's basically what i said i another post.
i have the feeling that you didn't want to reply to my post.
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you are right i dont have all day. I agree with the rest except the economic doom part. The doom will happen in or out of EU.
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The EU does not have the same set of rules for all its members.
It should though.
Also if the UK leaves the EU it will start paying taxes to export stuff to the EU and half of what the UK exports goes to the european market, prices would go up and less consumers would want its products, more companies would move abroad to be competitive and that could be a problem..
The whole " I'll be great on my own" Trump theory doesn't work , never did and never will.
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they can have some contract like usa and canada, 2 country, free trade
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Well the EU are kind of hinting that such contracts or agreements will be difficult. It's like a threat, they say you better vote the way we want you to or we'll screw you over. Whether or not they actually would do that to us is another thing altogether.
To be honest, even hinting that we're going to find it difficult to trade with them afterwards makes them look like bad so-called allies, and the kind of people you wouldn't want to be in a union with. If they would go ahead with it then they're petty and vindictive, as mutual trade would still benefit both them and us should we vote to leave. If they're just bluffing then that would make them liars.
Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we did leave.
Edit: Just to clarify, it's the people who make up the European Commission who my beef is with, not the individual member states/countries or people who live in them.
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membership comes with cost and benefits.
you can't just leave and think that you can keep the benefits.
the UK has stood against financial regulation after the first crisis and kept its position after the second to protect its economy.
most member states now see the need for at least a financial transaction tax .
it seems odd to think their economy will take this blow so easily.
the city of london is the gate to the european financial markets if it leaves the EU it won't be anymore.
the banks and financial institutions will all go in search for greener pastures .
so britain will lose what it wants to protect in the first place.
as i wrote before , i think this whole brexit is just a clever move of the conservatives to show how much they are against the EU.
a popular opinion of many EU citizens since the founding of the european union .
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Fair points, and I believe the economy would suffer, at least initially. Personally I'm not certain about the long-term.
It's the tone, and the way some of the arguments are being framed. It riles me up, lol. It feels like they're trying to back the country into a corner and that makes me want to come out and fighting rather than going along with what they want. It brings out the rebel in me! :p
If it was all about saying how we're good partners,that we work well together, and that they'd like us to stay then I wouldn't be annoyed at all. That's how things actually were until the first polls came out, or so it seemed to me. The option to stay has always been in front but it was close at that time. The arguments seemed to change tact then, with more focus on the bad things that might happen should we leave rather than the good things about staying. Obama even played his part in that! It seems to be working, mind you, as the polls show that the chances of the country staying in has increased. I'm almost certain we'll stay in.
When you say conservatives do you mean Conservative party? They mostly want to stay in, but they've always had a problem with dissenting voices within their party. I think the promise of a referendum was mainly to appease them, and I also don't believe for one second that David Cameron thought we might vote to leave. He seems to have been bit panicky lately though, and he's really trying to do everything he can to persuade people to vote to remain at the moment.
If you didn't just mean that party then of course there are UKIP who are a populist anti-eu party. They don't just attract conservatives who think the Conservative party are not hardline enough, but also a lot of former left-wing voters who feel that the Labour party has betrayed the low-waged workers as they are strongly pro EU. That means largely open borders and a more competitive job market that they can find it a struggle to compete in.
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i meant the conservative party
i love people with actual opinions rather than just stupid uninformed ones like many you can find here.
whitelisted you.
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Ah, understood now.
Thanks very much, I appreciate it. I do like a bit of a chat and discussion, and it was a pleasure having one with you. Until next time :)
I would offer to whitelist you back but I don't currently maintain one. If that were to ever change though..........
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You're kind of stabbing EU in the back, do you seriously expect them to embrace you with open arms right after you leave? It's common sense, really.
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That could be made were the trade balance is fairly even but if i import more crap from the UK than the UK does from my country you can guess were the UK can stick that deal ... i'll give you a hint , its dark and smelly.
Its not a simple matter and it could be good for the UK in some trade relationships ( like with my country where the UK has a small trade deficit ) and it would be worse with others, in finantial services ( were the UK Rules ) they would probably have issues by being outside.
The UK has a unique set of perks that nobody else can have in its participation in the EU and i admit that the EU is broken but not beyond repair and the people is to blame , the European parliment was elected by the people so voters can only blame themselves.
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Merkel make big mistake, if she only read history.... Multi culture have good sides but this works only if everyone wants to keep this in that way to end this dream you need only one group that will do not agree to this idea and wants change country to mono culture.
Example how unrestricted migration ends in Multi culture open pro-western Lebanon "Switzerland of the East" during the 1960s, and its capital, Beirut, attracted so many tourists that it was known as "the Paris of the Middle East"
Ends with civil war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
Now Lebanon is only a miserable shadow of what achieved in the 1960s
History repeats itself if people forgot about it.
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I think it's unlikely we will leave. Better the devil you know ..
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Whats currently going on is the "we gun leave if you dun gib incentives muh" game - i'd daresay real chances are like
20 against 80, that their NOT going to leave - why, eco. profits obviously and politics are going to make sure of that.
for timely/topical reasons and lulz:
the movie is shit btw.
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This really isn't the best place for this kind of argument, but it probably won't happen. People don't seem to realise we get stuff back from the EU as well as contribute, it's not a bloody one way system, but as I said it's not the place to argue this, where a snappy phrase or quick take seems like a cool thing to post.
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I'll be voting leave. I never bother voting in elections but as a heterodox anarchist I think voting to leave a super-state is a sensible choice for me.
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And the doom-mongers are dumb as fuck. Why on earth would you imagine that not being part of the EU spells economic doom? Tons of countries in the world are not in the EU, they still manage to trade and so forth just fine. The only way it would become problematic is if Europe and her allies decide to seek revenge by functionally blockading the UK. In which case, why would you want to be a part of such a Reich anyway?
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you don't seem to understand that Thatcher killed your real economy and replaced it with a financial one.
which can only exist like it does today because britain is a member of the eu.
you don't produce shit.
you don't have rich raw resources.
please give me an example of a country that does great isn't a tax haven and doesn't want to be a member of the EU.
and don't say something like canada australia or japan.
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lol whats with switzerland? We have the bigger financial economy then UK and are not a part of the EU. And believe me we are more then happy to make contracts with UK if they are out of that stupid circus.
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I would laugh so hard if suddenly everyone would ask their money back from swiss banks. I would love to see how your 'economy' would sustain itself then.
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Even if we say that's true, it proves the point that political union is not necessary in order for nations to have friendly and beneficial trade relations. Say our Swiss friend Siat here wants me to fix his computer, and I want some of the tomatoes he grows in his garden. Would we be required to first sign up to some code of conduct which says we have to allow each others families to stay in our houses if they want, or that we will punish our children in exactly the same ways. No, we can just trade because we both have stuff the other wants, and don't wish each other any harm. It's bollocks.
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You realize that economics of whole continent is a little bit more complicated than your tomatoes story? People like you are those who want to leavebecause you can only perceive economy on tomato scale.
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I'm sure it is more complicated, but largely because bureaucrats make it that complicated. I don't see why it has to be.
I mean, I may be going off on a tangent here, but one response I've heard to a variant of my own point was basically, "Yes, European countries may well still continue to trade with the UK, but they might impose tariffs on UK goods, thus decreasing the value of your export market." Well, yeah, they might do that, but that would be their choice. They don't have to. They aren't doing it at the moment, so why just because we're no longer signed up to some ideological pact should they have to do that? If Europe starts giving us shitty deals just because we backed out of the EU, it does nothing but prove that the EU is an imperialistic venture. What I'm hearing from pro-EU folks right now is basically equivalent to the old Soviet approach of 'JOIN OUR UNION OR THINGS WILL GET VERY BAD FOR YOU, HINT HINT'. I mean, seriously, we're getting back to Bloc politics. Better to be one of the non-aligned nations.
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Even if you put all the economics aside ( which is main point of this union anyway ) do you guys REALLY want to be alone in current world? Your main spokesman for leaving ( if i'm to believe my media ) is named Boris. Doesn't that hint you to ANYTHING? Any current events and situation in our side of the globe. We as a people,as a friendly and i hope civilized nations have one big enemy in common ,which oh my how waits for EU to break. And you guys,even with all your military wont stand against that evil alone:)
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You do realise this referendum is not about leaving NATO, right? Or have you not heard of that?
Also, you're just fear mongering. What, you think Russia is suddenly going to swoop in and invade Britain, and because we're not a member of the EU, everyone will say 'fuck those guys'. Funny, because I seem to recall a certain event in the past where a small nation in the European continent WAS invaded by a dictatorship, and lots of countries who were in neither a political or economic union with them came to their aid? What was that called again? Hmm.
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exactly and its much easyer to make contracts with one country then with a bunch of countrys who have different interest. Russia is a good example only because someone is mad at russia no EU Country can trade with them.
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you are a tax haven.
funny that you don't know that
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it is because we are not part of the circus think about it. Austria was also a long time a good country before they join the EU
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austria has profited greatly from the EU .
the fact that many european countries would have done well without becoming a part of it is true many others wouldn't have done so well
but that's not the argument .
the big picture is that only a few member states like germany france and Britain (all founding states) would be capable of competing with the U.S Russia or China . politically as well as economically
i don't think they see how fucked they would be on their own.
switzerland has its neutrality and the fact that they hold a huge amount of the wealth of this world to thank for their special status.
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Oh, I agree. We fucked our manufacturing sector and now employ a lot of people to do pretty useless shit. We need to change that. But that's what globalisation has done. Lots of countries now specialise to the point that they depend on trade with other countries to keep their economy going (not a smart move, imo). But that does not require political union to remedy.
Why can't I mention the likes of Australia and Japan? Alright, how about South Korea, Brazil, Turkey, Argentina, China and so on. Leaving the EU doesn't somehow shut us off from the global market. We have trading relationships with many nations which are beneficial to both and they would not want to give up.
Barack Obama came over and propagandised for the Stay campaign recently by saying that if we leave the EU it will make it extremely difficult for the US to sort out a trade deal with us. That it would take years, maybe even a decade. And yet, the US has trade deals with a number of countries outside the EU, such as one with Australia, a far bigger nation than the UK, which took them a matter of months to sort out.
Might it be inconvenient, with some problems initially? Of course. Any major change like that requires a period of adaptation. Would you recommend an unhappy wife stay married to her domineering husband just because it might be a bit tricky initially for her to forge ahead on her own? No. And to restate my main point, the notion that you have to be in political union - which is exactly what the EU was intended to be, a super-state with "ever closer union" (just yesterday I heard an old speech by Churchill where he called it the United States of Europe) - in order to do well for yourselves as a nation is pure myth. And the fact that people living outside of the UK are getting angry at us and making threats can't help but imply that a lot of people aren't really concerned about our well-being, but are pissed that we don't want to be part of some expanding global government project which they find ideologically appealing.
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australia is a resource exporter not a financial specialist. the uk has a population of 64,1 million australia 23,13 million, britain is the bigger economical power.
australia had to basically take what the U.S put on the table and they knew that before hand.
britain is not that simple if they lose their bargaining chip that is being the gate to the EU financial markets . they lose almost everything the U.S wants from them except military support.
the fact that we are stronger united is not a myth especialy today where china india brazil and russia are much bigger economical and military powers.
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Problem is, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Every nation is using that exact same logic. "We better make ourselves bigger and stronger in order to protect ourselves from these other guys." Then every one keeps building up the State until they do eventually clash and instead of what in the past would have been a relatively contained conflict, with hundreds, thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of deaths, turns into an absolute fucking massacre where hundreds of millions of people are deployed and tens of millions are killed. Just look at the past century to see how the promise of the big State making us safer was not born out. No doubt a lot of the German population who ushered the Third Reich in did so partly on the basis that it would make them stronger, and thus more secure from surrounding states... Just before they were marched off to their doom.
I'm not saying I don't see any benefit at all from things like the European Union, or, indeed, the United States. But I think that in the long run, our problems could be solved in ways with far less drawbacks.
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an self proclaimed anarchist should know that as soon as there is nothing to keep someone from doing something there are people who will do it.
the melian dialogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_Dialogue
applies still today . its not just about being safe its about being in charge.if you are small and weak you have to do what the big and strong want you to do or you go down. that's a fact not an illusion.
the holocaust is an great example if israel would have existed like it does today it would not have happened.
if you think that without any control over a situation you could be the one who comes out on top .
is like thinking that you will win the lottery.
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It's called geographical location. You can't say that countries located in different parts of the world are successful, so why can't UK? If probably won't be economical doom, but I don't see it to be like a 1920s financial boom that some people think it will be.
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I find that pretty plausible, that it won't be a matter of boom or bust. It probably won't change all that much. But I don't think anyone really knows, which is why that debate drags on.
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I fear we will. The national character is nothing if not utterly delusional about Britain's place in the world.
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I think it's pretty ironic that Scotland wants nothing to do with Great Britain, but do like the EU and Great Britain wants Scotland to stay, but doesn't like the EU.
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I'm English, I don't want Scotland to stay. I'm fully behind the push for friendly independence on the part of both nations. You'll generally find that the people pushing for Scotland to stay are the same people pushing for us to stay in the EU, although there are obviously cases where your example is true.
Also, the Scots recently had a referendum on their membership of the United Kingdom, and voted to stay. So to imply that "Scotland wants nothing to do with Great Britain" is patently false.
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Maybe it's a bias our media, but from what I've heard one of the causes of the disagreement between Scotland and Great Britain is their disagreement on wether they should stay in the EU or not. This was reported by the NOS, which is like the BBC News of The Netherlands.
But if I were Scottish, I wouldn't want to be part of Great Britain either considering their history. Wether or not it's good for Great Britain to leave the EU, I have no idea. I think we'll only be able to tell afterwards which was the good decision, if we'll be able to tell at all.
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Certainly it seems to be true that the Scots in general are more Pro-EU than the English. But you've got to keep in mind that our Prime Minister, and I'd say the majority of politicians, are Pro-EU.
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The Euro is nearly dead, and this EU is useless and should die, too. Brits should exit because they still have their own currency, and their exit should be a manageable shock.
In addition, it would be a triumphant example of democracy.
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sure , so the statement "the dollar is dead" is something you would say is true.
please read up on claims you make!
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Dollar is the currency of ONE nation, a nation that was born with it. Euro is a currency with NO nation and claims to be the currency of several different nations with different governments, populations, economies. It basically means these countries have fixed currency exchange rates among them, which strengthen countries with an already strong economy and weaken countries with a weaker economy (does Argentina ring any bell?), creating disoccupation and lowering wages. One way of fixing this would be transfering money from richer countries to poorer ones. Of course Germany will never do a thing like this, and even I don't want they to do it.
That's why I say Euro is dead. The concept behind it is wrong, and it's only a matter of time.
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they don't have fixed currency exchange rates when they have the same currency.
germany is one of the countries that pay the most into the eu funds which pays out to weaker economies .
that's basically what most people in economically stronger countries(like britain) don't like about the eu.
you should inform yourself a little bit. before you right about a complex subject like the fact that the "STRONG EURO" (because its one of the strongest currencies in the world) is hurting weaker economies in the EU.
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Same currency = fixed exchange rates. That means, a weak country's currency doesn't depreciate over time (or a strong country's currency doesn't appreciate over time), because the value of the currency is an average of the values of all members' economies.
These EU funds you are talking about are funds to pay weaker countries (like Greece and Spain), yes... but what do they do with these funds? The pay their debts to German and French banks! Making debts towards these funds... so nothing changes, they still have debts but only creditors are different! And Germany and France settle their banks making all EU countries pay.
An artificially strong currency for a weak country brings disoccupation, as I said above. It has to.
And again, do you know the reasons of Argentina's default some years ago? They had this great idea of fixing the exchange rate of their Peso with the Dollar, and started emitting their national debt in Dollars. Little problem: Argentina is not USA, so after a while the system collapsed and exchange rate returned at market price. Another little problem: they had to pay their debt in Dollars. The debt exploded and lead to default. Luckily, in EU (at least in Italy) we still issue our national debt in national currency and NOT specifically in Euro, so it can be paid in legal currency, be it Euro or (if someone exits) in Lire, Schilling, Pesetas or whatever.
Does this fixed exchange rate sound a bit like something we know? Hmmm...
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with the same currency you have no exchange rates because there is no exchange .
what you probably mean is a difference in cost of living. if you mean the exchange rate of the euro with foreign currencies than this is not fixed .the generalisation of german and french banks is also wrong they like almost every country in the world owe money to private and public institutions many of them banks from around the world . they owe too much and earn too little so their credit ratings are bad and they have to pay higher interest rates. this would still be the case if they would leave the EU .
greece could profit from going back to its weaker currency because of an increase in tourism but that's about it .
they still would have to pay the interest on their debts,
the reason for argentina's crisis was not just the fixed exchange rate to the dollar as a countermeasure to inflation but results of it
in relation with its economical structure .
again the euro has no fixed exchange rate with any foreign currencies.
not even the currencies of EU countries who have their own currencies(most of the ones with weak economies don't do any better than the ones with the euro) like pound sterling, the danish and swedish krone ( both separate) the polish zloty and a few others.
can you give me a source for your claim that italy pays its debt in lira, i find that impossible because its worth would be nonexistent because no one uses it . the worth of a currency is defined by how much its used, how much there is, how much its needed and what stands behind it.
there is nothing atm that would give the lira any value.
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There is no exchange internally, that's why you can't depreciate your currency (towards other countries with Euro)! It's like having the exchange rate fixed! One of the most powerful levers of competitivity is the exchange rate, that is normally adjusted by the currency market. If your competitivity decreases, your disoccupation increases. The two ways of adjusting competitivity are modifying the exchange rates, or reduce salaries. You can't modify internal exchange rates with Euro. so you have to reduce salaries. Reducing salaries leads to deflation, which will lead to even more regression. Not to mention that your bank loan payments remain the same, so you probably will need to sell your house.
This is the graph for the exchange rate between Italian Lira and German Mark. You can see that in 30 years Lira kept constantly depreciating to maintain Italian competitivity on international market, but inflation allowed us to keep our buying power towards foreign countries. They tried to fix the exchange rates with the EMS (result: regression in Italy, silly taxes to "maintain international reliability") but the system eventually collapsed and Italy regained its competitivity.
Then they made this Euro and we (weak-economy countries) were screwed.
As for national debt, I'm not saying we should pay ours with Lire now, because Lire don't exist anymore. We are paying it with Euro at the moment, but if we exited, all the remaining debt would be converted in the new currency (let's say: 1 Euro = 1 Nuova Lira) and only then we will pay the debt with Nuova Lira (which will be worth something like 20 or 30% less than Euro, but that risk is already considered in the higher interest rate we pay on it).
I wanted to attach a graphic of German exports, which explode after 2002, while other EU countries with Euro progressively go worse (see Greece, Spain...), but I can't find it right now.
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so its a misunderstanding on your side about what an currancy exchange is.
its not even like a fixed rate , its a difference in economic situations of different euro countries.
if italy would create a new lira it wouldn't be 1:1 but more like 1:0,000??? because italy's economy is not 20% to 30? of the euro zone . this would give you an boost in your exports and decrease in imports.
it would also boost tourism.
but it doesn't mean your gdp will go up.
also your international debt will not be less just because you switch currencies .
you will have to pay the same amount . only your national debt (debts made and handled in italy) will be affected.
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Yes, different economic situations in different Euro countries. It's exactly what I mean. Only that you can't adjust competitivity via exchange rate because there is no exchange rate to change. And this is bad.
The 1:1 switch was only an example of the conversion rate (easy conversion). After the conversion, New Lira would probably lose value, economist estimate about 20-30%, so with 1 NL you could buy 0,7-0,8€.
Of course we will have to pay the same amount of public debt, but the debt is not the problem (Japan has a public debt that is 250% of their GDP and they're growing). Our problem is demand, and with Euro our products are not affordable for foreign customers, who prefer German products. If we had our own currency, which is estimated to be 20-30% lower than Euro, our products will be 20-30% cheaper for international customers. That would create domand, then jobs, then internal demand (destroyed by this gentleman) and GDP, which would be, of course, 20-30% less at the beginning, but that is not a problem since the debt would downscale by the same factor.
Edit: As the gentleman in the video says, it's competitiveness, not competitivity. My bad :D
Edit 2: what do you mean with "international debt"? If you mean that Italy will have to pay 20-30% more after exit, sorry but you're wrong, Italian public debt is issued under Italian law. If Italy switches currency, the debt will be paid in the new currency at the official (not market) conversion rate. If you mean private debt, well, it depends on the contract.
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now think about why foreign customers prefer german products.
its not because they are cheaper (i'm pretty sure they are not)
its because they are better .
if you go back to lira and leave the eu you will still have to compete with countries like china.
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Foreign customers prefer German products because they cost less than ours! Euro is a weak currency for Germany (and doesn't appreciate due to massive exportations because it's an average), while it's too strong for Italy (and doesn't depreciate due to more importations for the same reason). After 2002, Germany exports exploded. If I found the graph I told you earlier, you would understand what I mean.
I'm going to bed now :)
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after this comment i have to assume that you don't understand economics.
the cost of german (or any) products is defined by costs like wages and taxes and supply and demand .
the only reasons to buy german (or any) goods over italian (or any) goods are price and/or quality differences
not how well or not the economy of a specific country does.
nothing de- or appreciates just because more of it gets ex_ or imported.
EDIT that italian goods are more expensive than german ones has nothing to do with the euro.
as for your EDIT i meant italy and italian companies owe to foreign private or public institutions.
debt is debt no matter the currency.
if a company owe 2 million euro to a foreign bank and italy switches currencies to lira and the exchange rate is 2:1
then the company still owes 2 million euros which would be 4 million lira.
nothing would change .
the only thing that could change is your credit rating which correlates to your gdp
and this is what changes your interest rates . the money you owe is still the same only the interest gets lowered.
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Will answer properly tomorrow, but I want to say one short thing now: we know Lira would be weaker and Mark would be stronger than Euro. So, if Germany and Italy left Euro changing 1:1 (and then the market adjusts values so that Lira is worth 0,8€ and Mark is worth 1,2€), what do you think international customers would buy? One thing that costs 120€ or one that costs 80€?
sleep time for real
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germany would never abandon the european idea.
but even if they would you can't say that production will cost that much
for example import costs for raw materials that are used to make your export products would get more expensive for italy. (german steel for example)
an eu exit also means you have to pay taxes of in- and exports in italy and the ex- or importing country.
you can't just make this into a simple equation.
you want to solve tax and legislation problems your country has in a wrong way.
why are italian products more expensive than german ones.
germany has almost the same tax rates, cost of living and social support as my country (austria) my country has a little better social support .
but we have no problem to compete with them .
germany is even our biggest export trading partner.
how much on average are the costs of living in italy?
if they are higher than austria's (what i almost can't imagine)
then we have one reason why your products are more expensive.
how high are income, sales ,capital gains, and corporate taxes ?
these will all affect production costs.
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In Italy there are two main economic areas: a strong one (North) and a weak, constantly paid one (South). Southern Italy has never been put in condition to compete, because the Lira was an average of the two areas: too weak for the North, too strong for the South. This competitive advantage the North had was balanced by the constant fiscal transfers to the South. That's why we have high taxes, but somehow with Lira we were doing well.
With (EMS first, then) Euro, the whole coutry started losing competitiveness, becoming the "Southern Italy" of Euro... But without fiscal transfers from richer areas (e.g. Germany). Now northern Italy lost competitiveness, but hey! Money transfers to southern Italy still remain! Therefore, high taxes. That's why our products cost a lot.
Euro could be great for northern Italy if there weren't the South. But it is there.
The increase of production costs with an undervalued currency you say it' true, but... The costs of materials is much less than the labour cost. Let's say, you product something that costs 50€ for materials (very high) and 50€ for labour. You switch to Lira, so 50L+50L. Now we know Lira will deprice of 20%, so if you import those materials, they will cost 60L. So the product now costs 110L. But since L is worth 20% less than €, the price for international customers will be 88€, instead 100€.
I don't know now the differences between taxes in Italy and Austria, but I'm sure in Austria are lower. I live near Austria and those who work there say there are much lower taxes and much less bureaucracy.
Edit: Oh, I forgot... Germany will never try to leave a currency that doesn't appreciate with massive exportations! They're not stupid!
Edit 2: Here's the graph I was talking about. It would be interesting to find one with other countries too.
Edit 3: This graph shows exactly what I'm talking about. You can see the years of EMS and the end of it (1992), then the introduction of Euro, and the austerity effects in 2012 that killed the demand in Italy.
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italy is surely not more bureaucratic than austria (in austria you need a permit for everything)
its probably just more efficient.
i saw a documentary once were the mafia build a road to a house without permits and nothing happened.
in austria the police would show up and stop construction.
if they would have finished the road without alerting the authorities they would have hired a company to destroy it and
send the bill and a fine to the ones that are responsible for building the road.
you described the problem very well now .
the north is economically strong and the south isn't
this is a problem of your state. not the euro . going back to the lira could solve the situation
but it is not a solution for the underlying problem.
in the same way you could say a split of italy into north and south is a good idea.
a split of the euro into a weak and strong euro could also be a solution you would think is a good one.
but again it doesn't solve the underlying problems it just makes them less prominent.
infrastructure could be a problem too .
on visits to italy i have seen that the north is basically almost like austria in terms of infrastructure
but on my vacation to sicily it was like seeing the infrastructure of a third world country.( almost)
no international company would make an investment in sicily with taxe rates of a first- and infrastructure of a third world country.
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It is exactly as you say! But those are the problems Italy has always had, and still our economy grew.
The underdevelopment is one of the consequences of having a unique currency, which causes fiscal transfers, which feed mafia and the like (someone takes the money for himself and his friends instead of spending it to create occupation, infrastructures and so on).
Some people are studying the possibility, after a hypotetical exit from Euro, of having TWO currencies, one for the North, one for the South. With this solution, you erase fiscal transfers and can lower taxes.
Surely, a split of Euro into two zones would help "Southern" Europe, but I don't like this solution really much. Because it would still have the problem of a currency which doesn't belong to a single country. If a country has its own currency, it can use it as a lever. If others share your same currency, sometimes you can make a deal, sometimes not, so it's not optimal.
And trust me, Italy is more bureaucratic, complicated and inefficient than Austria: a friend of mine's parents live near Austrian border, wanted to open a bar... they opened it in Austria (Kärnten), because it took them two weeks to get all permissions needed (in Italy they have been told they had to wait six months), and of course because of taxes.
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I hope so. It's a great opportunity for them to abandon the sinking ship and start regaining control of their nation.
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EU is not what it should and could have been. Free Trade Area? Great! No movement restrictions? Awesome! One currency? Well, perhaps. 1095484613149843131784613 rules and regulations? Nope. Bureaucracy (no idea how to spell this one) over 9000? Hell no. Everything but not transparent funding and grants? No.
EU is great idea gone wrong. It needs to be re-thinked and re-worked by real economists. Not politicians, nor lawayers should create rules that impact economy on global scale when they have little understanding of the mechanisms or shady intentions.
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Let's hope UK leaves EU and then Scotland leaves UK and then all the EU immigrants leave UK and then there's no one to draw pollen ball comics about and then people remember how shitty Europe used to be before EU and stop looking at bad sides only and qq all the time and instead try to build something better / improve things.
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I remember 2001. Do tell me how it was shitty again. As far as I know, it was pretty much the last time we DIDN'T have an economic crisis.
Such an improvement!
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I remember 1985 and it was real crazy, could afford to go to a sea chore every year and went skiing all the time and there were less cars polluting the environment. Also had a wooden rocking horse so that was great. What's your point? You don't like pollen ball comics? Ok, I guess they can be confusing to some.
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You might as well go and tell Ukrainians or Yugoslavians that their countries were shitty before Communism, and they should be glad of Russias recent attempts to re-annex Western Europe.
Also, I'm not convinced by this argument that things are uniformly better than they used to be. My parents generation could afford to buy a home in their 20s and raise a family based on the income of one parent. Now we have a whole generation of people who face the real threat that they might never be able to afford their own home.
You're approaching things from a far to reductive perspective. Again, for example, one could say 'oh, the US is far better than it was 50 years ago.' Well, of course, in many ways that would be true. And yet, in the richest country in the world, 1 in 7 Americans are on food stamps BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO FEED THEMSELVES. Golden age my fucking arse.
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I'm telling them. They say something about burek being better than pizza. Not sure what it is all about. Send help. They are drowning me in rakija.
Also, you're confusing west and east. Just saying. Also, maybe I should explain because this is the internet where people react like crazy... I'm eurosceptic. I was joking. Continue your life.
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Heck, if it was up to me my own country would leave the EU too, and many europeans think alike... lucky Brits are given the option though, we ain't.
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I have a feeling this won't be the last EU referendum, especially if we leave (which we probably won't, most Brits don't have the stomach for change anymore).
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Oh, we already have a referendum here about Ukraine.
Guess what the conclusion was (we rejected it)
Guess how the politicians responded? Ukraine already immediately just tossed it aside, and also our own are heavily doing everything to discredit it and make it happen anyway.
Same would probably happen with Brittain.
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Also for all "EU brought peace" they were cheering with the Kiev rioteers and provided the new government 2 billion (in the middle of economic crisis with Greece I might add), no strings attached.
Which Kiev then used to wage war with thousands of deaths.
EU brings peace my ass... Brexit leads to war only if our EU "leaders" are actually going ballistic over it.
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They leave, they will be worse off. They stay, everyone else will have to put up with them. Britain is the drunk uncle of the EU. He's a nuisance, but still a good nuisance :)
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You're highly dependent on imports. Higher tariffs. Also, you'll have no border control, it's France doing it all. You'll have a massive invasion of immigrants, since you can start sealing off your border only after they've already crossed the sea.
Also, you have no real resources anymore. Scotland has a limited amount of oil and it's harder and harder for you to get it, since the scots are already rebelling against you.
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Hopefully they will. And hopefully that will be the end of the 4th reich.
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UK is the american trojan horse on the EU, and therefore I think they should fuck off.
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To be honest: I suspect this topic will cause much butthurt and blacklists.
And to be honest again: If Great Britain decides to leave the EU it would be a bad choice economically. Politically it might make sense if enough of the voters want it, but realistically: not the smart choice to make. But that's just the numbers I've read.
In the end Great Britain should and will do whatever its leaders and people want. Regardless of what anyone else thinks.
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I remember "bad financial choices"
Apparently it would cost 2 billion to close borders. Guess what, instead we pay that much to Turkey, and they just go "suckers, give us more money or we don't even do what you paid us for"
So much better.
And don't forget how much money we didn't pump in Greece already, and it'll never be enough. Just a black hole of money till it default... giving even more issues. There's no financial good thing going on in the EU. It's all heading for inevitable crash, and the current actions to save it (Turkey, Greece etc.) make all members individually weaker and weaker, thus the fall harder.
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I mean, I feel if Brexit does actually happen, UK will go back to being England, Wales, Scotland and perhaps Northern Ireland joins back into Ireland? You never know. People are expecting every country that is in the UK to stay in the UK, but why would they do such a thing? Both Scotland and Wales get a lot of benefits as a result of UK's membership in the EU, so perhaps independence referendum in Scotland and independence vote in Wales? We'll live and see I guess. :D
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I think you should leave for the higher good... To push EU to make things better and not listen the nazi US regime soo much.
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Nope, noone can. The elite will never let you leave. Don't act like your vote actually matters.
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Do you think Great Britain will leave the EU? What do you the British people on Steam gifts think? Should Britain stay in the EU or leave?
-edit it appears Leave won 52% of the vote. Congrats Great Britain!
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