People should probably also keep in mind that it's 1:50 am on a Saturday morning here where Bundle Stars head office is and this has only recently kicked off - although somebody is clearly paying attention and the bundle page has been updated with a reduced price it is likely going to be at least several hours before there is an official reaction to this or any word on refunds.
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That janitor named Steve is watching those computers and doing God's work.
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Discount will be 75% off, meaning it will cost $6.25 / €5.75.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117512164106
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That means it was already voided:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117512371619
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WTF I BOUGHT THE BUNDLE BASICALLY ONLY CAUSE OF THIS GAME
FFS BS
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don't know if you should blame BS, the Publisher/developer did send them the keys which were included in the bundle..
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yeah true, I blame everyone equally
Contacted support just need either to get what was sold or a full refund including processing fees. Though if I don't get a key I'll remain pissed...
oh well
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I find it highly suspect that Bundlestars manages to deal with all these companies, including Major AAA companies and somehow decided to just screw over the publisher/developer of Star Ruler 2..
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I don't see a company screwing up something like that on purpose, which doesn't make it that much better either. Though for me it makes no difference as long as the solution is fair to me
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You shouldn't directly ask for a partial refund. Just state that you paid for the game, that it is missing and that it is up to them to find a satisfying solution. If you ask for a partial refund, you make it too easy for them to send you off with some few cents.
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Kinda lucked out since it was the only game that I was interested in and I managed to get it in a group buy. Sucks for everyone else though since the game does look really good :/.
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Question: How can they check if the game has been redeemed or not? Just because a game may have been revealed, doesn't necessarily mean it has been redeemed.
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If it's already been activated then it's fine - those aren't getting revoked. If the key hasn't been activated then it won't now activate.
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So if the key had been revealed it can still be redeemed on steam?
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No. The devs haven't gone so far as to revoke games that have already been activated on Steam. If you have the game in your Steam library it is staying there for now. But all keys that haven't been activated/redeemed on Steam now appear to be useless. If you have an unused key from this bundle in a spreadsheet or whatever it has now been cancelled. It doesn't matter if it has been revealed or not.
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That's correct. If you or someone you gave a key to has already activated the game, you're OK.
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You don't understand my question. If Star Ruler 2 game key has been revealed in Bundle Stars, where you clearly see the key, but you haven't activated it yet on steam, because well you haven't gotten to it yet, then what? Will it still work, or rendered useless now? And how would Bundle Stars know if that key has been redeemed on steam yet or not?
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"All keys that haven't been activated/redeemed on Steam now appear to be useless."
"If you have an unused key from this bundle in a spreadsheet or whatever it has now been cancelled. It doesn't matter if it has been revealed or not."
Yes, I do understand your question. If you haven't activated your key yet then it won't activate. If you haven't activated your key yet then it is useless. It doesn't matter whether it has been revealed or not.
Bundle Stars doesn't know if your key has been redeemed on Steam or not. That doesn't matter. This has been done at the request of the devs not Bundle Stars, and likely against the wishes of Bundle Stars. The devs have simply told Steam that outstanding keys are no longer good and not to activate any keys that haven't already been redeemed.
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Developer voided any keys from Killer Bundle 8 that have not been activated. If you revealed the key but did not activate it in Steam it will no longer work. Bundle Stars can possibly check with the developer in case of dispute over whether a key had been activated or not after it was revealed.
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Revealed on BS doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is, did you activate the key on Steam yet? If yes, you're OK, the game will not be revoked from your Steam account. If you didn't activate the game on Steam yet, then the key is dead. It doesn't matter whether it's been revealed or not, you'll never be able to use it.
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"Bundle Stars doesn't know if your key has been redeemed on Steam or not. That doesn't matter."
"If you revealed the key but did not activate it in Steam it will no longer work. Bundle Stars can possibly check with the developer in case of dispute over whether a key had been activated or not after it was revealed."
These are the answers I was looking for, thanks. It does matter because If I'm going to the trouble to ask for a refund, I want know if they're gonna give me hell over the fact the key has been revealed but not activated. They should just refund everyone automatically over their blunder.
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Bundle Stars are just resellers for keys provided by devs, they don't know if those keys are good and have to trust the devs on that. This isn't necessarily their blunder, but if the point you are leading up to is 'would Bundle Stars know if the key I had revealed had been activated or not before I ask for a refund' then the answer is no - but that wouldn't stop Bundle Stars from giving Steam a list of refunded keys in case anybody had activated them and then fraudulently asked for a refund...
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More like developer wrote to Steam "those are keys we gave BundleStars, if they are activated it's ok, but those not activated must be nuked".
Neither devs nor Steam would check or care about what going on with Stars, since they are 3rd Party in this case.
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At this stage it appears it appears the status of the keys was shifted to 'activated' by the devs, which didn't affect redeemed keys but caused other keys to give a 'duplicate key' error if somebody attempted to redeem them.
Bundle Stars clearly didn't have a say in that - but as an official distributor I suspect they could still send a list of keys that were refunded to Steam and say 'make sure these get revoked as we didn't get payment'. The same as keys getting revoked after a charge back on Humble Bundle.
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he understood your question and answered with "No". :)
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He may have understood it, but he didn't give me the answer I was looking for until later.
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The developers see which keys are used on Steam and which not. If you claim that you haven't redeemed your key for Bundlestars I think they will just send a list to the developers who will then revoke all the keys that have been used but claimed as "not redeemed". So you can't really cheat I guess. :)
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Probably through Steam - tell Valve the list of keys are no longer good, they no longer grant subscription. Anyone already using it would still have the subscription.
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Luckily I already gifted my key to someone. Dodged a bullet there :)
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They take out a 20$ game but it's ok it's 20 cents less, heck yeah! :D
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Here the bundle's price changed to -16$, I'm off to buy some more -just a couple dozen more and I can buy a new PC!
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Well, due to this shitstorm that one of the parties caused, they could at just lower it by 1 euro, or at least 1 dollar if they can't do it as much. It's their fault and a gesture of goodwill would be nice, not them pretending to lower the price and in the end actually profiting much more. (due to Star Ruler 2 not receiving any money now)
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Yeah, I was sort of thinking that... but I don't know how or what could be done. Since some people got a game that will not be removed from their library that nobody else buying the bundle can get, yet the bundle still has 11 days left on it, seems a bit unfair. Why not revoke all keys from steam too by working with BundleStars to figure out which keys were part of their bundles? Seems a little strange that some people who were early in buying it get an extra game for .50 here. With that logic, I feel I should have the option to raise my bundle price .50 to get Star Ruler 2, in that case, since earlier people essentially unknowingly had that option in a roundabout way.
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Don't want the game so I don't really care, but... I have to wonder exactly how this kind of "miscommunication" would arise. Oh well.
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same
I'm pissed on everyone involved unless I get a valid key, for that was the reason I bought the bundle.
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It really shouldn't harm their reputation though. The fault lies entirely with Bundlestars. As far as I can tell, the SR2 devs aren't gonna get any money from the bundle now, so by not revoking the already activated keys, they're basically giving away a whole lot of copies of their game for free. If they lose rep over it, that's gonna be a double hit.
One thing that bothers me is that the solution they went with is unfair. They should have revoked all the keys or none. Since apparently the devs couldn't resolve the issue with BS and had to resort to revoking, the right thing to do would have been to revoke all the keys.
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And take even bigger PR hit? Take a look at the discussion on Steam's forum. People are grabbing their pitchforks.
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Yeah, I agree completely, or allow me to add that .50 back to get Star Ruler 2, like the people who bought it at first were able to do, basically. Totally unfair. Who cares about reputations when you are making money hand over fist.
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Who's making money? The dev isn't gonna get any money out of this bundle and Bundlestars is gonna get hit with refund requests.
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Uhh.... Well.... If you check into the future prospects and where those keys were "supposed" to be going, there's a little 75% off thing they're about to start up with the game they pulled from the Killer bundle. Dev will most likely rake it in, though I hope everyone boycotts it and they wish they'd stayed in the bundle.
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Dude...
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Next to nobody is going to go for the sale. People wanted it on the cheap in the bundle. They put up the sale to allow the few people who were really keen on playing the game to get it at a low price. And that's only people who hadn't bought the bundle yet or bought it and didn't activate the keys. And only those of them who are willing to buy for the higher price in the sale. I expect not more than a hundred people or so.
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Why would they wish they'd stayed in the bundle? They were gonna get next to nothing out of it while thousands of copies of their game were being saved up by traders to be sold later, costing them sales, all without their consent. It's not like they had agreed to be in the bundle in the first place. Expecting them to be quiet and let it happen or face boycotts sounds a lot like bullying.
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I hear you on that. I hope you are right on point 1... But I think in comparison to point 2, I think they will make thousands of percentage points more in total than they would have (but I sure hope not) in the bundle. Maybe I am just a pessimistic (or optimistic, depending on how one looks at it) with the situation. How do you know they did not agree to be in the bundle? They have said they did not wish to sell for the bundle price, but we are not privy to the actual contract. Maybe there was consent in their contract, but they didn't know or realize it. We haven't actually read the contract (nor will we ever), so we cannot know that one way or another. Nothing really has been said by the developer(s) to help put the angry community at ease out of those who feel wronged. Hardly any of their questions were answered at all - many of us were completely ignored. I would certainly think that is important, but that's just me. They cared enough about their reviews not to nuke any Steam keys that were activated, though...
Anyway, my point with 2. above is that hopefully the bad PR will keep people from buying in the sale even more, making them wish they had made the pennies in the bundle. I was mainly joking around, since I was hoping the 75% sale tanks... but then again probably some of those people already have it in their library now thanks to KB 8, so they don't have to buy it.
I have a gigantic wall of text here I could add, but I decided it was irrelevant to add, since it's purely my speculation and opinion. Being quiet is exactly what I would do if it was indeed something BundleStars did. Then you go after them for "breach of contract" after the bundle ends, and you don't have angry gamers who feel shafted after buying something they did not receive as advertised; everything is done behind the scenes... I guess playing devil's advocate, it's not an easy thing going after someone like BundleStars, but a wrong is a wrong, and any attorney would be able to prove that, unless, again, their contract somehow protects BS from litigation somehow.
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I don't have enough information to argue about the likelihood of Blind Mind making a mistake in their agreement with BS. So I'll just leave it at 'I'm less willing to blame them than you are, because I'm a bit of a fanboy'. It's certainly a possibility. Hopefully someone, be it Blind Mind or BundleStars, will actually tell us what happened after it's resolved.
However, it's completely unrealistic to expect a tiny dev to consider overseas legal action. If they even manage to find a court with the jurisdiction to handle the case, they'd have to take large loans to afford the legal fees and would have no guarantee of success, since they'd likely have to present the case to a 60+ years old judge who probably doesn't know anything about the internet. And for that matter, the lawmakers don't know anything about the internet either, so the case could be thrown out because the law hasn't caught up with the internet economy.
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Pretty much feeling the same way about everything. I'm guessing that would depend on wherever there is an agreement, as far as the address that is located on the agreement states. Probably some sort of information about litigation in there somewhere, and where it would take place, to avoid the above mentioned problem, but I don't know for sure. At least BundleStars is able to now give anyone who got keys removed a valid key, it appears. I'm fine with the outcome, since everyone can get what was advertised at the time of purchase. Not cool how they went about doing that. Could have ended up a lot worse though.
I have no idea what a trial would have ended up being like, what kind of fees would be involved, how old a judge would have been, or how much knowledge they would have about the internet. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think a breach of contract either is or isn't though, based on the document, and that's the only point that this whole issue really would hinge on. I would think some attorneys would jump on something that's a sure bet in writing if they can collect a percentage, then others want a retainer fee or some similar agreement... Not sure how you could try and defend something that is signed with it clearly marked. I'm guessing for BS, the easiest thing would have been just to settle in a sort of mediation before it got to that point anyway if it was their bad, and not go through with all the negativity and time something like that would bring about. Doesn't matter now - still no communication about what happened in the contract from developers through Steam, so it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck to me. As long as BS provides keys to legitimate buyers, I don't care about Blind Mind's conduct very much now - it does paint a picture to me that wasn't there before. Many people like straight answers, but it'll all be forgotten in a few weeks anyway. Maybe that's what they are counting on, and why playing the waiting game is what could happen, which I guess for them at this point is not a bad idea, especially if I was the one who screwed up against a large reseller...
Main problem for me: Communication. Some communication would be nice, since neither side wants to say anything... but maybe people buying a product do not deserve that much respect these days from either side. They both get their paychecks, so who cares? I definitely couldn't sleep at night having that attitude towards customers.
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I told them I wanted my key for the game I paid for
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Ehh.. I wanted to buy it because of Star Ruler 2 and Blue Estate :/. Both game was great for me. When they took one of them i will not buy and not play even this Blue.. ;(
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+1.
I as well wanted to buy it because of Star Ruler 2.
So obviously I will not now be getting this bundle.
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I left a support message asking for another key, we'll see what happens then when Bundle Stars starts to address this issue. Shaving off $0.50 and not even offering something to those affected is hopefully not the final move.
I'm really annoyed at the developer for this, this was one of the games I actually wanted from this bundle. It's a real dick move to then say "there will be a sale"...I hope that sale is $0.50...
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Not close.
Price will be 75% off, and 35% for Wake of the Heralds.
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I'm really annoyed at the developer for this, this was one of the games I actually wanted from this bundle. It's a real dick move to then say "there will be a sale"...I hope that sale is $0.50...
he didn't agree to be in the bundle with his game. what would you do in that situation? bundlestars sells your game for some cents without your agreement. maybe you would have taken measures, too. i probably would have. i fully understand him.
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+1 He probably would have lost a ton of sales if it stayed in the bundle. It's not his fault that there was a miscommunication (at least I assume it's not his fault, maybe it was).
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I mean, you say that, but looking at stats, they most likely wouldn't have lost too many sales. Maybe in the future, when the price gets dropped to $2 or so.
Thanks to the bundle, they get double digit player numbers and on avg they have 15 players playing it.
Plus they have an approximate of 40k owners. How many of them are people who bought it from Steam? Also, the game's been out since Mar. 2015, so what do you really expect? There's no hype for the game, no one talks about it until The Killer Bundle and you expect him to even rack up 2000-3000 sales with the regular price? Maybe in a year he'll rack up that number, but no one will buy his game, since it's been cheaper and most bundle buyers aren't rich and don't really want to buy games for their full price, or even sale price, since there's always a possibility of getting it amazingly cheap in a bundle...
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Don't be so gullible. It might be true, but it might also be them just lying to cover their hides. You can never know, plus you haven't even allowed BS to respond.
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sure that seems to be the case if you believe the developer, but how did BS get thousands of keys if he never intended it to be part of the bundle. It's not like Bundlestars themselves can request thousands of keys fro Star Ruler 2 from steam. He's been very vague on the steam forums, saying he can't talk about the reason why..
If it was true he never agreed to be in the bundle he would have no issues with saying he never agreed too it. The only reason he'd not talk about it is if a legal problem could arise.. IE he agreed, then tried to back out at the last minute..
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I'm guessing they got keys because they sell the game in their non-bundle store, so can probably request keys automatically.
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How did BS get the keys if not from the developer?
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From the developer:
The keys were generated purposefully, but not used in accordance with our expectations.Comment has been collapsed.
As I said above, the keys were probably generated for the store, not for bundles.
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They had the right to pull the keys I suppose but I doubt it will do then any favors.Also some time ago a wrong game ended up in a humblebundle build a bundle and no keys where revoked jyst the game removed and that would be the the right move imo.FYI the game that was in the humble was broforce.
They can blame bad communication all they want but I hope the revoked keys where worth it as I doubt anyone who bought and got a dupe key will buy anything from them at the sale.
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What exactly is "the dumb move" you are talking about? When they never planned or agreed to be part of that bundle, it's absolutely their right to stop that process.
And they could have revoked those already activated keys too, if they wanted. Instead of that, they only prevented Bundlestars from selling further keys. Those who didn't activate their keys yet are unlucky, but those people are Bundlestars' problem.
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"There was, frankly, no good option, because none of those keys should have been available to start with."
See their thread, linked above.
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But those keys were generated by them (no one else can do that) and given to BS. Maybe the keys were intended for some other bundle, that's the only thing I can come up with.
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From the developer:
The keys were generated purposefully, but not used in accordance with our expectations.
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I can't tell you more than they did. ;)
The keys shouldn't have been there, so obviously the devs made at least 1 mistake.
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Yes, that is exactly what the dev has said. The fact that Bundle Stars has the keys is legit. The fact that they put the keys in the Killer 8 bundle is not legit. Without being privy to the contract between the dev and BS, we don't know exactly where things went wrong.
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bundlestars also has a normal store. they were probably meant to be sold there, not in the bundle.
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The dev gave the keys to Bundle Stars, just not for the Killer 8 bundle.
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Well it depends on who is in the wrong. I'm finding it hard to believe the devs gave them all those keys in the first place if they never planned to be in a bundle, and I'm sure Bundle Stars are going to have a different version of events when they get into their office...
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bundlestars also has a normal store. they were probably meant to be sold there, not in the bundle.
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Well that just throws up more questions. The clue as to what 'Bundle Stars' do is in the name. Certainly they also have a more conventional store but why did the dev think the keys were going to end up there rather than a bundle? What price was agreed, was there a contract? If the devs didn't have a contract about how the keys would be used then what justification did they have for revoking keys? If the devs did have a contract then why not take legal action instead of forfeiting their profits? Are we really expected to believe a reputable company suddenly turned into scammers? There are good reasons this kind of crap shouldn't be happening.
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Regardless of the name, BS has the same type of regular Steam key store as IndieGala and IndieGameStand and GreenManGaming and Humble Store and many others. There's nothing suspicious about a dev putting their game for sale on the store, at regular prices. Bundles are agreed on completely independently of store sales. Based on what info we got, it's most likely someone on the BS staff mistakenly thought SR2 was available for bundling, then nobody responded to the dev after they complained about the mistake, prompting the revoke.
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That does not match up with what I've heard at this stage. The dev has blamed a 'miscommunication' and defended Bundle Stars against accusations of mistakes, etc. The dev said he had been trying to resolve the situation for three days, it was only other people who suggested that meant Bundle Stars had been ignoring him for three days. The (currently unsubstantiated) claims I've heard are that Bundle Stars were in communication with the dev but were convinced they had a legal agreement to sell the keys and were reluctant to pull the game from the bundle without some form of compensation, but after failing to negotiate his way out of the deal he nuked the keys. I strongly suspect the problems may prove to be with the timing of the bundle before a 75% sale and disorganisation on the part of a small dev team trying to make as much money as possible from various deals in a short space of time rather than Bundle Stars bundling keys that were intended for full price sale.
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Could be. But later in the thread the dev sort of confirmed that the keys were never meant for a bundle, saying:
"Distributors regularly receive multiple thousands of keys, even if there's no expectation of distributing those keys through normal sales. Keys are free to generate."
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Myself, I don't see how that is confirming that the keys were never meant for a bundle. In fact it could also be read as saying 'we often give lots of keys to distributors and don't require them to sell any through store sales'. The dev seems to often be quite specific in his wording to avoid confirming or denying certain things.
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I agree about the wording. Maybe he has an NDA in the contract with BS, so he's being careful not to break it by giving details?
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That's certainly possible. Another possibility is that the devs are trying to avoid admitting the error is at their end - 'the keys were not used in accordance with our expectations' is an especially lovely turn of phrase that could simply mean the devs weren't paying enough attention to a contract they entered into. Another possibility is that the dev is seriously worried about potential legal action.
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Or it might have been for next bundle, the one week after they finish their -75% sale on Steam?
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This is exactly the kind of screw up I'm led to believe. Bundling the game appears to have been a strategy for bringing in new players and boosting DLC sales. The devs either expected it to happen later, the 75% sale to happen sooner, or only decided on the 75% sale after making an arrangement with Bundle Stars.
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And they could have revoked those already activated keys too, if they wanted.
Well, if they had done that, at least they would have been coherent. But instead, some people keep the game while others don't, just because they didn't redeem the key yet.
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They would have a much bigger shit storm in their hand if people had the game removed from their account. Like the dev said, there was no good solution, this was the less invasive one.
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Exactly. Killing keys before they are activated is one level of shitstorm. Revoking games that are already activated in your Steam account is a whole other level of shitstorm.
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The reason they cared more about revoking unactivated keys was because they wanted to prevent those keys from hitting the secondary market - traders, resellers, etc. That's what really ruins a game's value in the long-term. The small number of people who got it from the bundle for their own use are not an issue. The people who buy a bunch of copies of the bundle in order to sell them or trade them online are the problem, because they'd have to compete against those people's low prices for a long time going forwards.
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the people who didn't redeem could be Key sellers, so I suspect they killed the unredeemed keys, so they could kill the resellers..
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It would be a real bad move to revoke it from everyone, at least I like the game and there will be 50-50 reviews if people start buying the game from the discounted price just to do a bad review and refund it.
Also, don't you usually activate the game straight after you buy it? Why wait a day or a week or longer? Basically if you were planning to make a giveaway with it, you just lose then.
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Yep, this is the problem with SAAS (software as a service) and the cloud, rather than physical media and outright ownership.
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And the reason why we have 1 USD AAA bundle
Let's face it, it comes with positive and negative. You couldn't get Tomb Raider for 1 buck, at least not in my country fifteen years ago, unless it's pirated.
Now it's being sold for 1 buck right and left.
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Very true. Honestly, there might be a lot of crap going on with it, but the positives are so good, that it's worth it. Games can be obtained so much cheaper (and cheap sooner) now....
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So how much is it yet in $? In € they ask 4,79€. If its true that in $ it costs now 4.49 they are really some assholes.
At Buying they ask you 1:1 euro to usd but at giving discounts its suddenly not more 1:1
Great way to treat your customer
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yes vat makes the price accidentally right 1:1.
so it still stays as above, if they make the price 1:1 then make your damn discount too 1:1
or do it right away like humble where u can choice to pay in dollar and dont are forced to pay in euro. ofc then you couldnt charge additional right?
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Now you gotta explain how VAT would make the price ratio different after the discount is applied.
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This is what happen when u want digital now the publisher/developer has all the power to revoke access to a game for any reason they come up with.Or remove content u paid for.Sure games are cheap and easy to get but this is part of the cons.
I do think they would have been better off letting all keys redeem and just having the game removed as this may do more harm then goid.I will not buy games from someone who does this and the only exude is bad communication.
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What it means is that any developer/publisher that resorts to this is going to be as trustworthy as snake poop. How does anybody know that they won't revoke any game any time they feel like it?
If the Star Ruler devs have a genuine issue with Bundle Stars then they should seek compensation from Bundle Stars through legal means. Focus Multimedia aren't some fly-by-night scammers that are going to vanish without trace. Simply revoking keys isn't going to achieve anything except hurting people who bought the bundle in good faith.
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The devs have no right to revoke keys that has been already sold, redeemed or not. If they think Bundle Stars (BS) made a mistake they should pursue the matter with BS, instead of taking punitive measures against the consumers. This will only reflect badly on them, based on previous incidents such as these.
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http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/?ctp=3#c355043117512311196
The dev is clearly wholly in the right, and regardless of whether their approach was good or not, all evidence thus far points toward them trying their best to attend to the consumers respectfully.
Think of it like this: They gave their credit card to a friend so that friend could buy a specific thing- but that friend instead used it on a bunch of other purchases for their friends.
The developer reported the credit card stolen, cancelling all ongoing purchases, but decided to take responsibility for the purchases that had already been made.
Again, you can argue whether there was a more logistically sound way to approach the matter, but they're giving every indication that their approach was nothing but praiseworthy.
It sucks, yes- but at best, it was an honest miscommunication between the devs and BS, and noone is hurt because they'll get adequately refunded.
At worst 1: A dev made a mistake, but tried to resolve it as best they could [and kudos to those measured, respectful replies they've given] and purchasers will get refunds. 2: BS made a mistake, and you're completely focusing blame in the wrong direction, and p[urchasers will get refunds.
Seriously, being ticked off about this matter is nothing but entitlement. Shit happens, and noone thus far has acted coarsely about the matter. There's nothing to do but shrug and move on.
Would you attack a developer for only giving away 500 free keys instead of 5000, because the promotion site misunderstood the quantity?
So if you're tired at work one day, and misread a number, should you be fired? Or perhaps tarred and feathered and banned from all future employment?
Intent and severity are the two elements that are worthy of consideration for the attribution of disdain, and neither one seems to be present here.
You're not losing anything, not unless Bundlestars completely drops the ball. Legally you've claim to a full refund of the bundle, which may even mean you'll end up with a bunch of free keys if you push that matter.
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If somebody obtained a bunch of keys through credit card fraud and then sold them on G2A the devs would surely have a right to revoke them. If I stole your PC and then sold it to somebody else for $10 it wouldn't mean you had no right to try and get it back. The devs clearly have a legal 'right' to revoke the keys if they feel they were distributed outside of their permissions or else they wouldn't have been able to do it - just clearly neither of think it was the morally 'right' thing to do in this case.
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The keys were not obtained through fraudulent means, so the G2A argument doesn't apply here. The devs and BS had an agreement/contract thingy, that's why the devs generated the keys on Steam and handed them over to BS. As for the "miscommunication", it could mean anything until BS come on board and tell their side of the story.
But currently the devs are acting unilaterally and citing the "too bad, you lucked out" situation for consumers who haven't activated the game, leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
For me, it's a "meh, $0.50 game", I've been served even lousier deals before. However as I said before, this will only reflect badly on them. The Internet has determined participants who will pursue this more rigorously. Just a heads-up for the devs.
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My only point was that just because something has been sold by someone somewhere it doesn't make it right. But now that you mention it we don't know if the keys were obtained by fraudulent means or not. I'm assuming that wasn't the case as Bundle Stars seem like a reputable company - but it is also an assumption to say that the devs and BS had an 'agreement/contract thingy'.
All we actually know at this time is that the devs generated a bunch of keys, Bundle Stars got them through unknown means and then started selling them in a bundle and the devs didn't like it. Like you say, 'miscommunication' could mean anything right now - up to and including Bundle Stars buying a bunch of keys then doing a credit card chargeback.
Best guess though is that the devs sold Bundle Stars a bunch of keys cheap, then decided they were devaluing their game by putting it in a bundle and they didn't like it. In which case this is their own fault and they should have been more careful about selling their keys or manned up and accepted the consequences...
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I've read the topic only this far for now, and you pondering in multiple comments about how this could even happen makes "agreement/contract thingy'." so appropiate :D
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'Agreement/contract thingy' certainly wasn't my term but it's a good one for summing up the level of understanding and assumption in this topic. The pondering and interest on my part was due to 'Bundle Stars' being a local company that I knew for producing and distributing software through physical copies long before they got involved in online distribution. They really aren't known for selling things without having a legal right to do so and having their contracts in order. This problem and the things the devs were saying seemed quite surprising - although I think I'm getting a pretty clear idea of what happened now...
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I had tried to activate my key this morning and it kept giving me a duplicate key error. I contacted Support and politely requested a new key. Now I see this. :(
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I'd seen a lot of people various places complaining about duplicate keys for the game throughout today long before the game was removed from the bundle or any announcement from the devs. In hindsight it looks like the devs were giving Bundle Stars bad keys long before they pulled out of the bundle. Along with the fact that the devs claims were at exactly the worst possible time for Bundle Stars to respond (late Friday night here) I'm personally really interested as to what the full story might eventually turn out to be.
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This I'm not sure about. Keys have now been revoked but multiple users were complaining about duplicate keys before that. I'm not certain but I think there may be at least two separate issues here.
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The devs specifically said that keys had been revoked, but now that you mention it I haven't heard anyone describe bad keys as anything other than 'duplicate', which is a different thing. This whole business is quite intriguing me...
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The only two options a dev has is [deactivate all unactivated keys by turning them into activated ones] which would give a 'duplicate key' notification (since it's a valid key that is treated as being activated), or [revoke all keys, including activated ones, turning them into invalid keys]. The dev decided against the latter approach.
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"...Duplicate Key..." may simply be the code that Steam gives when a previously generated key is voided. Unlike a completely invalid key which doesn't exist, the key did exist, but can't be activated anymore. So the problem is that Steam's error messages are not nuanced enough to explain that.
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Steam has a limited number of error messages and I'm not sure what the devs did or how - what you say may well be the explanation. But from my own experiences I've seen three error messages. "Invalid CD Key" when a key is just plain wrong such as typed incorrectly or an Origin key, the duplicate error when a key has already been used and once I saw "Invalid Product Code" when I had a payment issue with a key. Based on that I'd have expected "Invalid Product Code" if the keys had been 'revoked', but perhaps that would have also revoked activated games? Maybe this was a workaround by the devs but why would they bother with that anyway if they had such an issue with how the game was being distributed? I'm sure we'll all find out eventually...
Edit - Sooth offered a possible explanation above, but that still leaves a lot of questions...
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Although not the same game, I tried a game key today of Savage Resurrection beta which is of course over now and all beta keys revoked. The (unused) key gave the "Duplicate key" message.
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Yeah, that verifies what I was saying. An unredeemed key that is voided comes up as a duplicate key.
Also:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117512371619
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That means the keys were already voided:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117512371619
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Well technically it means either they were 'voided' specifically in such a way as not to affect already activated keys or they actually were duplicate keys. And that such keys were being given out long before any announcement from the devs. It still leaves a lot of questions about what was going on.
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No, the dev was clear about the fact that he voided the keys before the official announcement of the game being pulled, and that the generic message of "duplicate" means voided. There's no mystery.
The dev can see which keys have been activated on Steam, so he deliberately excluded them and voided everything else. The problem is, this happened awhile before Bundle Stars pulled the game out of the bundle. The whole thing is a major cluster-you-know-what, but that specific part is clear.
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If you believe everything the dev says and don't question how Bundle Stars got a bunch of keys they weren't supposed to be selling and why the dev chose only to void unactivated keys then there is indeed no mystery.
I'm not sure that the dev could see which keys had been activated on Steam. See the explanation by Sooth above, who is generally trustworthy;
"The only two options a dev has is [deactivate all unactivated keys by turning them into activated ones] which would give a 'duplicate key' notification (since it's a valid key that is treated as being activated), or [revoke all keys, including activated ones, turning them into invalid keys]. The dev decided against the latter approach."
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While I do not automatically believe that the dev was in the right to do what they did, because they may have been wrong in how they interpreted their contract with Bundle Stars, the idea that in a fit of panic/rage/exasperation they cancelled the keys while the bundle was still being sold makes perfect sense. The time between when that happened and when Bundle Stars pulled the game would not have been instantaneous. A lot of bundles would have been sold before folks would discover that the key didn't work. That's not some out there thing, it's just logic. It has nothing to do with believing the dev or not, because that's not an area where belief is relevant.
One again, you're mixing up two different things:
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Whether the dev had a contract with Bundle Stars in which they were authorized to sell keys, but not in the way the dev believes they were allowed to. That's not in dispute. The dev did give them keys, but the dev is saying that they were not supposed to be included in the Killer Bundle 8. We'll have to wait to see what Bundle Stars says about that.
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The reason for the "duplicate key" message is because the dev specifically chose to only void the keys which hadn't already been activated. The reason it says duplicate is probably as Sooth said, which is a slightly different explanation, but the point is that there is nothing conspiratorial or mysterious about that, which is what you were trying to imply.
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Even with a lot of assumptions that still leaves a lot of questions about what happened.
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I agree, but we're unlikely to ever to know the full details unless this ends up in court.
This isn't the first time a developer has gotten pissed off about their game being included in a bundle without their supposed authorization, and it won't be the last.
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You put it in a clear perspective. I still wonder from my own experience with ebooks license keys. In such case, you give a website lets say 1k keys, they compromise to pay you a certain amount for each key, lets say 1 usd, or after some time, those keys not sold are returned and nothing is paid. The first thing you do is giving them the keys, and once they have them, they can do whatever they want with them (they can give them away for free if they want to) as long as they pay you 1usd for each key they are not giving you back. You can have verbal agreements, like "dont sell the keys for less than 5 usd", but that doesnt mean they cant, it only means if they do, you wont be giving them more keys. I simplified it, of course, but thats the main idea. When it comes to games retail keys, is the dev in any right to tell the seller how to sell the keys? i understand (based on this probably diferent situation) that once you have given away your keys, you cant do anything, but wait. Any idea on this matter?
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My best guess is that the dev sold Bundle Stars a bunch of cheap keys but didn't expect them to be sold in a bundle and felt that was devaluing the game and objected, while Bundle Stars felt they were entitled to use them as they saw fit. That's the only explanation I can see for the developer revoking keys rather than seeking more legitimate forms of redress from Bundle Stars, although I'm the first to admit that is speculation on my part.
I suspect the dev is at best being disingenuous - I find it hard to believe that a reputable company that manages to deal with most major publishers would simply ignore the dev for three days and I find the timing of the devs announcement (shortly after most Bundle Stars staff had finished work for the weekend) questionable at best. But I'm clearly not claiming that as fact.
I still don't see a logical reason why the developer took a course of action that revoked only some of the keys - the unactivated ones - leaving some purchasers with a game but others with unusable keys. According to posts I've seen various places 'duplicate' keys were being reported for at least half a day before Bundle Stars appeared to be informed of the issue or the developer made any announcement and I haven't seen an adequate explanation for that. I don't expect things to happen immediately, but that kind of delay wasn't accidental.
Those are the only things I'm mixed up about or implying. I'm not prepared to accept case closed and no mystery on the basis of something the dev has been 'clear about', especially when it doesn't explain everything and when I haven't heard the other side of the story.
I've learned a lot about revoked keys in this thread and some of the things I was initially curious about have been answered. But the flip side of the duplicate key message doubling as 'the developer has marked this key as activated to prevent it from being used' is that it can still also mean 'duplicate key'. Like many other things, I feel it is still an assumption to say that all duplicate messages were because of the developer voiding keys. I don't think it fully clears up what happened and in what order.
I'm going to bed now. I expect all the answers to be available in full by the time I'm next here.
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My best guess is that the dev sold Bundle Stars a bunch of cheap keys but didn't expect them to be sold in a bundle and felt that was devaluing the game and objected, while Bundle Stars felt they were entitled to use them as they saw fit.
Yes, I agree with that. Bundle Stars got the keys legitimately, but they used them in a way that the developer assumed they weren't allowed to, based on a contract or oral agreement. We'll have to wait to see what Bundle Stars says on Monday.
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do you get a Response from the Support? i am still waiting :(
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And I still don't have enough for the bundle... I was $1.03 CAD short now I'm 33 cents short! What a bunch of teasers, man! This suuucks. v~v
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I was $4.99 short and now I'm $4.49 short. And now the game I wanted most is gone from the bundle before I could buy it :(.
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I could've bought it, but I caved into the Boobie Bundle (Dharker) on IndieGala. Sucks that I had to re-buy tier one, but I got it during happy hour, so I have a bunch I'm giving away now, I guess. I just wished that you could make purchases using multiple cards/methods of paying, assuming you have the cash to.
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Good thing I redeemed my copy I guess. Sucks for bundlestars though. It's not a good look.
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which is unfair though, for those who were simply waiting to activate
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in terms of bundles once you get a key you should redeem it for various reasons... I see no reason to sit around and wait to redeem keys you buy in bundles.. unless you are planning on selling those keys at a later date..
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I save some just because, I also trade so some specific games I don't mind having an extra copy on an alt account it's easier to trade and activate on my main
I trade spare keys but don't resell
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If these keys weren't supposed to have been sold in the first place, all of them should've been revoked and customers should receive a full refund for the cost of the key.
This is such a bizarre half-measure that favors some people over others simply by the timing.
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https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/9dY7XZN
Shit happens.
And yeah, it's bizarre from a consumer perspective- but trying figuring it from the perspective of a developer put in that circumstance, of having your product sold far under what you've contractually set its price for, and not having any way of resolving the matter because the distributor is ignoring you.
What would you have done?
A clean break sounds nice, and make sense at a glance, but can you really say you wouldn't give some consideration to this approach if you were put in that position, as per these thoughts?
I'm not saying I agree with the choice, but it seems absurd to get upset over it.
Some people will always have lucky breaks. Free game promotions favor those who come first. Humble Bundle BTA pricing favors early purchasers. Rights of salvage go to the first person to discover the artifacts in question. First company or country to discover a technology gets an advantage. First person to use the shower in your house in the morning likely gets better hot water.
Timing means a lot in life, and while it's not "fair", it's not intentionally unfair, either. In general, noone is out to hurt anyone or intentionally disfavor anyone. It's just a facet of life, to be accepted and pushed past.
And in this case, since there appears to not even have been initial intent of going down this path, it's especially silly to be overly concerned with the matter.
Besides.. just like those who won out on timing, you and I both know all we've likely missed out on is timing- it's pretty unlikely the game won't eventually get bundled again, especially in light of this event.
So the best comparison is a store running out of a product during a sale: It's not really a question of fault, or of penalty to latecomers, but of a benefit to those that came earlier than others.
And unlike physical products, games are unlikely to be discontinued.
Given how many games there are that go into our backlog, I think most SG users can afford the wait without too much concern. :P
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Yes, this is a lousy situation for all involved. What baffles me the most is this 'miscommunication' between BS and the devs. It blows my mind that BS would not have to contact and require the approval of all of the parties involved well before a bundle is released - particularly a popular bundle such as this with a very steep discount of solid games. This just seems to be basic business common sense.
Hopefully, this will reinforce the absolute need for there to be a completely clear contractual agreement between the end seller and creator/distributor regarding how a product is to be sold. It's just a shame that we are left with all of this (completely avoidable) ill-will and distrust.
In the end, events such as this continue to erode my faith in the whole digital rights and distribution system. I've always looked at BS as one of the good guys, but I now feel as though no one can be trusted - even Steam..."Oops, due to [insert excuse: pricing error, game decommissioning or abandonment, etc.], you no longer own what you bought...so sad, too bad." I guess it's just the risk we all share when we accept a subscription in exchange for highly discounted pricing. Even our DRM-free games are not guaranteed to be there unless we actively and consistently download and back-up our libraries! Blah blah blah!!!
Anyway, this too shall pass... Happy gaming :)
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I dont think thats a good move... they still have their game lowered to less than 2 euro at G2A, and now they also earned a bad reputation. They still failed to provide what the missunderstanding was about (because they DID give the keys to that site), wich makes them the shady part, imo. Anyway, i still feel sorry for a dev whose game price goes to hell because he got it on a bundle, but they have to face the fact that it was their choice. Also, i think steam should have better policies when it comes to revoking keys (this remind me a lot of Drunk Wizards).
Cheers if you redeemed yours!
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The keys are NOT being revoked from Steam. Only keys that have not yet been redeemed on Steam are being voided. Big difference.
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Still, they keys are generated, and then they are allowed to revoke them. My point is people paid for the key, and they cant use it because of some "missunderstanding" between 2 sellers. We are not talking about credit card fraud (wich i still think its a bad move to revoke the keys), but some "oh, no! it was such a bad idea to do this!!" thing.
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We are not talking about credit card fraud (wich i still think its a bad move to revoke the keys)
If you think stolen game keys should not be revoked, you are a very delusional person.
And as far as I can tell, those keys were never meant to be sold in the bundle. There was a screw up somewhere along the line between BS and the dev, and the keys ended up being sold in the bundle when they shouldn't have. The dev voided all unactivated keys and it's up to Bundlestars to fix their own mess now.
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Well, im confused on that one, because the devs dont tell us what happened, and when someone said (i quote) "The keys were illegitimately sold. The fact that bundle stars is trustworthy mean nothing, everybody makes mistakes. " the dev replied "thanks for all the support, but we don't need any accusation about the behavior of Bundle Stars." (you can read that following the link on the post that started this whole discusion). So it seems the devs didn´t do anything wrong, they defend bundlestars behaviour (or at least they tell people not to acuse them of doing something ilegal with the keys), and the users got their keys revoked. Thats a pretty weird situation, i mean, i expect someone to have commited a mistake, and im running out of players. I think its imposible for both the dev and BS to come clean on this one.
Besides that point, i dont think it matters who is to blame, they decided to take it on the honest buyers, and that´s just wrong. Of course, if i was the dev (and im glad im not), i see my game going to waste, maybe i would do the same, i would be like "well, this guys will lose just one game, but i will keep my bussiness running", but that doesnt make it right.
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As the dev have said multiple time, it's a miscommunication. I don't think anything illegal happened like BundleStars deciding to use the key for the bundle even though they were told not to, sounds more like a misunderstanding over what those keys would be used for.
That does suck for those who bought the bundle and didn't activate the key in time, but at least the dev decided to keep the collateral damage to a minimum by only revoking unactivated keys in order to cause as little problem as he could for the customers. Those who ended up paying for a game they didn't get will have to find a resolution with BundleStars, since they're the one who made the sale in the first place.
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Oh, if it was a miscommunication, yeah... let them take our stuff... i just hope the previous owners of my house didnt miscommuticate enough to take it away from me (sorry, i usually dont do sarcasm, but you did call me delusional earlier, so me and the voices in my head got a bit offended) XD
Now seriously. I think if miscommunication between sellers is now a valid reason for keys to be revoked, next time they will be doing it because they just feel sad for a cloudy day. Either one of them is guilty, or both are, but theres no way none of them is responsible, unless you want to blame it on the people who bought it.
And again, doesnt mean it wasnt what i would have done standing on their shoes, but it is still wrong, and people who got affected have all the right in the world to complain, specially because they didnt even get the details on what happened. I think a full detailed story, naming the reasons, might turn most people on the dev´s side. Right now most people are complaining for the harsh way they did things and not for their actual lose. I dont think ive read a single comment saying they wouldnt have bought the bundle if they knew this would happen.
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If you bought a house that wasn't for sale, then yeah the owner should be allowed to get it back. And as a customer you would have to take it with whoever sold it to you. (And I only meant it would be delusional to believe that stolen goods should remain in people's account and not be removed.)
If the key weren't intended to be sold in the bundle, then yes, it's a perfectly valid reason to deactivate them. They chose the way that was the least harsh, ie not revoking every key but only unused ones. They didn't want to have people see the game removed from their libraries, they just wanted to prevent further damage. The other alternative, revoking ALL the keys, would have been much harsher.
He said he couldn't go in details so I'm guessing until things are resolved with BundleStars, either peacefully or in court, we're not going to get the full story. Either of them, or both, could be at fault here. The reason he's asking people not to throw accusations at BundleStars is probably that he doesn't believe it was done with a malicious intent.
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They were for sell. A way to sell your products (i have no clue of its name in english) is to give them to someone for a while, and if they sell them, they pay you a cut you agreed beforehand, if not, they give them back to you, or they can also just pay you that cut (if they didnt sell it) and keep the product to sell later. Thats the basic contract you must have. Thats how, for instance E books licence keys work, and i have some experience on that. I could give a key to a website, and as long as that website pays me my part, they can do whatever they want with that ebook key (even give away all of them for free). If my action was to revoke those keys, the consecuence would be that the guy who sold them will get charged back from the credit cards, losing the money from the sale, the key (in this case, also the keys and cash from other games) and having to pay a small, but significant tax to the credit card (or go to court and face the card company, wich he wont do because he knows his keys are broken). He ould also acuse me of damaging his reputation. When that happens, the seller will probably pass the lose to me, saying i violated our agreement. That damage exists, and one of us is responsible (maybe me, maybe the seller) in the sense that someone will have to take the damage, and thats decided on our agreement and the judge´s interpretation of it.
Also, as a side note, i could tell the seller stuff like "dont sell for less than this price" or such, but he can actually do whatever he wants. The only practical reason to tell such a thing to the seller would be that he is probably interested in working with you in the future, so you are notifying him on what to do if he wants to keep that partnership going on.
Anyway, thats how it works for EBooks, i would love to hear from someone who knows better with games, but i am guessing its pretty much the same, sience in both cases the product is the same, a licence for unlimited use of something.
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Well, from my point of view, the right thing to do would have been, instead of revoking the keys, go to court. In wich case, i would totally agree with you. Sadly, every time it just ends with people getting keys revoked, and nobody taking any issue to court. Its easy to make gamers pay.
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Keep in mind, a lot of legality is in impression.
Y'know how you have to keep suing to protect trademark, even when it's clearly not rationally necessary to do so?
If they didn't cancel their support, it could be used against them as a sign of agreement by them to how their keys were used.
Likewise, there's never any guarantee that you'll be able to work through the posturing and bureaucracy that drives most legal systems more than justice does and get your recompense. It's better to cut losses while you can.
Rather, there's no rational reason for them to NOT have cancelled their keys.
If anything, the only thing to argue with is their decision not to revoke activated keys.
And really, it's hard to take any assault on that front seriously, given that the only person it negatively affects is the developer.
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What do you mean by "an impression"? you mean as in most things we think are legal actually are not? or you mean that the legal system is unfair?
I do get bureaucrasy, but that doesnt mean the legal way is not the right way. Some site caused them a loss by breaking an agreement, well, thats all you need. I think they just chose their path of action because its easier to be unfair to honest buyers (who here will sue? none) than to actually face the guilty part (assuming bundlestar is guilty of something). Add to that the fact that they dont disclose why they did it (i smell a post tomorrow from bundlestar similar to that from the giveaway guy that hosted the drunk wizards giveaway), and youll see they are not even explaining their costumers why they did it.
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What he means is that, certain aspects of civil law work in such a way that, you are more likely to receive a favorable judgement, if you acted in a way that made it seem like you cared in the first place. For example, under intellectual property law, one way you show that you care is by suing anybody and everybody who does anything that even remotely looks like they are copying your product, idea, or work. If you don't, then if at a later date you finally get fed up and decide to sue for the first time, the court will ask you why you haven't been going after other people who may have stolen your stuff, and dismiss your case or rule unfavorably. This idea of diligence is central to certain parts of our civil law.
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Got it! here we are not used to that (and i though you mean something poetic like "justice is an ilusion" XD) but probably you are right. Still I would have been more carefull towards buyers and BS when it comes to their loses (unless they are 100% sure BS will get the blame, of course).
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This idea of diligence is central to certain parts of our civil law.
..and works out really poorly in practice, 110% of the time.
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And yet, I think you're still somehow over-estimating how well it works. :X
:sigh:
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To me that seems equally (or more) likely to be the devs saying 'my lawyer / common sense advised me not to go into specifics, in case legal actions are taken against us' (breach of contract and all).
Seeing as this was done at ~1am on a Saturday morning by Bundlestars time (and after close of weekly business just about anywhere in the world), BundleStars hasn't had time to deliver any response to bundle buyers after what seems to be a surprise action taken by the devs.
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Yeah but legal action cannot repair reputation. At the moment all we know is Bundle Stars had keys to sell, that were given to them by the developer, which have now been revoked for some unknown reason. IMO its on the devs to show that Bundle Stars is at fault and not theirs.
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Those copies on G2A most likely came from this bundle. I will expect the price on the grey market to rise once resellers realize that their keys are trash :P.
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What does G2A do to resellers that give away bad keys?
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You get a bad reputation after the sale. If the buyer paid for the insurance, you will probably have to explain why your key isnt working. Worse case, you get banned (but i dont think it aplies here because its been made public what they did).
Oh... and forgot to say the most obvious part: you dont get the cash (it takes 15 days after the sale for you to get the cash, so if something happens before, you just get nothing)
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When a buyer opens a ticket against a seller, they have the opportunity to negotiate. In this case, the seller would just issue a full refund. After the buyer accepts it, that transaction is basically as if it never happened (no negative rep for the seller), except g2a of course doesn't refund the seller the taxes.
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Not sure on G2A but I do know that Kinguin would refund the buyer if someone complained and showed proof. Not sure what happens if a bunch of keys were reported as invalid all at once :/.
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Oh good. It's been a few days since the last "G2A scammed me, how was I to know?" thread. >.>
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I don't really feel like it's any bad reputation if they try to fix something that wasn't supposed to happen, unless someone is completely ignorant and entitled No offense meant towards you - it's a studio with only star ruler 1-2, their revenue matters because that's what bills. Someone condemning them for trying to make a living, while they are not acting like total dicknuggets and removing every single copy, rather trying to minimize the damage done is just making me sad.
Also regarding this, if indeed bundle starts made a mistake, I'm really curious how they intend to fix it - I don't think they can see which key was actually used up, so if they want to offer like store credit, they have to do it with every bundle-buyer
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Im not sure wich post are you replying, the closest i found saying "bad reputation" was mine, so just to clarify, i was replying to "what happen if you sell those keys at G2A", and by bad reputation, i mean their reputation system (you get positive or negative votes after selling something by the user who purchased it). That was in the case someone bought the key to resell it. Had nothing to do with the dev´s reputation.
Anyway, i understand what they did, and why they did it, I know they are a small studio, but that doesnt make it right. Of course we can look the other way. I think if you own a bussiness, you have to be carefull on what you do and be responsible. Ive seen many good games that have gone that road and im sad for them because its really hard to recover so i feel like looking the other way, because they are not an AAA company, and they didnt do something as bad as those big studios often do. But if someone paid for that key, got it revoked, and didnt even get an explanation, he or she has all the right in the world to be angry.
Its just so disapointing that this kind of stuff keeps happening...
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Absolutely. I'm just curious how could this have happened, and what BS has to say about the case.
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This was one of the few games I didn't care about in the bundle and was planning to trade. That being said, it's the principle of the thing that bugs me. Why not just pull it from Bundle Stars and swallow the loss? It'd do worlds of good for their reputation.
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Why not just pull it from BundleStars and swallow the loss? It'd do worlds of good for their reputation.
That's.. exactly what they just did. o.O;
Keep in mind, Bundlestars has (eg, 10,000 keys) assigned to them by the dev.
The only options to a developer is to deactivate [unused keys] or [all keys].
They have no way of determining which keys were assigned to a bundle or not, so they can't simply deactivate the keys that weren't purchased.
The dev claims to have tried for 3 days to get BS to remove the game from the bundle so they wouldn't HAVE to blindside any customers.
From the sounds of it, this is FULLY BS's fault.
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No, they didn't do just that, they revoked all unused keys. I meant simply eliminating it from future-bought bundles. It'd still disappoint some people who had wanted to buy the bundle, but it'd make less people angry.
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No, they didn't do just that, they revoked all unused keys. I meant simply eliminating it from future-bought bundles. It'd still disappoint some people who had wanted to buy the bundle, but it'd make less people angry.
You mean, deactivate all keys?
A lot of users in this thread pushed for that option, feeling it was fairer, yes.
But the dev decided to take a "your good fortune, our loss" approach to it. No shame in that, it's not like it hurts anyone for the dev to give early activators a lucky break.
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No, I meant "let all the keys already bought be kept, activated or not, and eliminate them from future sales." I could have sworn I saw a few developers take that option in the past (I thought Groupees had something with that once, can't fully recall), and it seems the better route for being seen as reliable developers to purchase from.
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The distributor has that option, the developer does not.
BundleStars apparently ignored the developer's requests on the matter for 3 days, refusing that option.
I'm not aware of any way to approach it similarly outside of that, but I don't profess to have first-hand knowledge of Steam development, either. Do let me know if you find information of that option existing. :)
In the meantime, my understanding of the matter does match well with what the developer is explaining. Until we get different info on the matter, either on Steam development options or BundleStar's part in the matter, the circumstances of the matter do seem to favor the developer perspective. :X
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Ah, okay. I'm no expert, but if I do find something out about it, I'll make a note of it. =)
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Honestly, it's not like the developer couldn't be at fault. We do only have a single perspective thus far.
But there's no reason to suspect otherwise, no considerations as to what a better option would have been than the one they took, and their responses have been respectful and attentive.
I'm not saying we should all jump on the dev's bandwagon, just that we should refrain from any negativity toward them without any basis whatsoever to offer them such.
If anyone can provide a reason to doubt them, sure, we can do that then. But until then, it's awkward viewing someone seem to be doing their best with an awkward situation only to get seemingly irrational hostility directed toward them.
Meanwhile, I've got nothing against the measured replies of "I don't like how you approached this, you should have done this instead".
That's totally fine. Helpful even- it's good for a developer to get impressions of what their consumers expect.
But the seemingly ever-typical onslaught of accusations and threats are thus-far uncalled for.
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Absolutely. One person even compared them to Digital Homicide, which I thought was absurd. I don't like what they did, but I'm not going to go around name-calling, either.
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With all the "developers" like DH floating around these days, I'd rather we not burn out the ones that seem to actually care about quality with unwarranted hatespam. :X
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BundleStars apparently ignored the developer for 3 days
I rather suspect BundleStars's view to be: you signed the contract, we are right to sell it that way
Dev then took the bigger gun of revoking, leaving BS no choice to not-react. Dev will be sued for that I'm sure.
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We don't know BundleStar's side of things.
All we have right now is the developer's, and they've adequately justified their narrative of events.
I'm not saying you shouldn't show restraint in trusting the dev's take on things- but at the moment, there's no basis to be hostile toward them, since according to their well framed explanation of events, all responsibility falls on BundleStars.
Either way, all too many people are overreacting, given that they [presumably] haven't lost anything (since BundleStars has a legal obligation to offer full refunds at this point, and even if they didn't, that'd still put blame on them, not the devs.).
What happens between BS or Devs, and which sues which, is really irrelevant to us consumers. As far as we're concerned, all we'll end up with is a portion of us purchasers being mildly inconvenienced.
Far better things to direct hostility toward, at least until this situation gives us more to work with than it has thus far.
Hell. If nothing else, if BS does manage to turn this back on the dev later on, we'll have wasted all our frustrations here on absurdity, thus diminishing the impact they could have when applied to genuine concerns. Just, save that aggression for when it's actually justified.
For example: If someone sets off the alarm when walking out of a store with a piece of clothing, and explains that the sales clerk forgot to remove the tag, wouldn't the reasonable thing be to check with that sales clerk [or with store tapes] before accusing the person of being a shoplifter?
At the moment all we have is a no-harm-done event with a reasonable explanation. Let's get facts worthy of hostility before engaging in such.
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hostile? I'm only putting the pieces together
well framed explanation
" but I really can't explain the situation any further"
they didn't explain anything, simply because the truth would show what I wrote before
What happens between BS or Devs, is really irrelevant to us
not to me, as I want to know exactly that ;-)
have wasted all our frustrations here on absurdity,
yes, you always write way too much xD
we have is a no-harm-done event
except psychological. You know, the thread wouldn't be so full otherwise
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hostile
Not you, silly :P
Some of the other comments have been downright nasty, and a fair number more have been hostile and accusatory without basis.
they didn't explain anything
Their keys were used in the bundle without their permission. They informed BundleStars and asked for it to be removed. Bundlestars didn't reply for three days. Losing keys daily, the developer only had three options: Allow keys to keep selling far under what they wanted them to go for, through a site they now can't trust at all; Deactivate all keys that hadn't been activated yet, allowing most purchasers to not have to deal with any bother from the matter while still negating grey market use; Revoke all keys, likely getting the strongest negative reaction from consumers of all. but coming across as "fair".
They chose a very reasonable option, according to their narrative.
Not to me
Well, as a curiosity piece, sure. But I meant, it doesn't affect us directly, in any matter that will linger :P
You always write too much
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Uh.
So, hey, about that weather..
except psychological
Not unless you have a preexisting psychological condition. This is pretty clearly not significant enough to create psychological impact, unless you're suffering from a condition that doesn't allow you to properly evaluate such things, or you're dealing with preexisting stress which even minor things can aggravate to retaliatory levels.
Again: Nothing lost, no injury taken, no disrespect offered.
There's no legitimate premise for aggravation, meaning this really appeals most to those simply looking for any excuse to express aggravation.
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Bundlestars didn't reply for three days.
no, that was never stated. Dev failed to get it resolved in that time, I'm sure BS replied plenty with: we have a contract
create psychological impact
didn't mean permanent damage or illness, more like getting people riled up
Nothing lost,
except those who paid & didn't activate in time and want the game (and not a refund)
and I wanted to win/buy it too xD
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Fair 'nuff. I should have stated "BS refused to remove the game from the bundle for 3 days", but my intent was "didn't reply favorably". :P
riled up
Those looking for any excuse, yea? :X
those who paid
You've got a right to a full refund of the entire package, even if you've already activated other keys.
It'll be curious to see what BS does in regards to that.
Regardless of your preferences, you still didn't lose anything but the time of managing a refund.
If you don't want a refund, then the package was still worth your money, so again, nothing lost.
Well, that's not true- you lost your hopes of getting the game at this point in time for a cheap price. :P
If someone tells you there's pie behind a door, takes a quarter from you to open the door, and then reveals there isn't actually any pie inside before laughingly giving you back your quarter..
You didn't lose anything of substance. You may feel irritated, and perhaps reasonably so, but no- nothing lost.
The fact that some people DID get pie is utterly irrelevant, since that has no direct bearing on your own circumstances.
In any case, I can definitely appreciate your sentiment- I was pretty keen on the game myself. :) / :(
But yeah- if you want to get irritated with being teased over pie, wait to see who you should get irritated with. In the meantime, accept that sometimes life is a vicious tease, and there's nothing to do but carry on without paying it any mind. :X
If it comes out that the mishap was deliberate by one party or another, then that'll be the time for upset. Anything before then is just self-indulgence.
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The fact that some people DID get pie is utterly irrelevant, since that has no direct bearing on your own circumstances.
except for the psychological effect of cognitive dissonance. It does have a real (negative) effect, even if not physical/monetary.
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Cognitive dissonance does actually only relate to directly corresponding elements [ie, being on a diet, but still eating pie], so your application is inaccurate, at least according to my understanding of the term. But, I do understand your perspective from it- and return you to my initial assessment of the matter.
If you're psychologically stable, you're not going to have an irrational response to non-directly-relevant elements.
Think of it like how people assured in their sexuality aren't going to freak out over the small, irrelevant gestures that those not so assured irrationally respond negatively to.
It's clearly an aberrant behavior symptomatic of a lack of self-possession.
Whether it's negative or not, it's a problem that the person themself is having, not a problem that is being afflicted upon them.
Moreover, as is the nature of such problems, it's indicative of similar difficulties in other aspects of the individual's life.
Or, put in tl;dr terms:
People just gotta chill out, man.
In any case, my point was that nothing negative is intentionally being directed toward the individual, and that nothing that would linger by its own right is being enacted upon them. What people do with the situations they're given is on them, but inherently, this is one of little note.
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ok, simply said: makes people angry
yes, also psychologically stable people get angry sometimes xD
aren't going to freak out over the small, irrelevant gestures
wait, are you saying you aren't flirting with me? xD
People just gotta chill out, man.
why you still write so much then ;-D
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wait, are you saying you aren't flirting with me? xD
I don't believe I said that, no.
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If you're psychologically stable...
That rules out entitled gamers. ;-)
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The dev claims to have tried for 3 days to get BS to remove the game from the bundle so they wouldn't HAVE to blindside any customers.
The devs have only said they have tried to negotiate, they haven't said they only tried to remove the game from the bundle (the game is already out of the bundle, as a consequence to the failed negotiations).
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The developer's previous comments in that thread provide the context I ascribed to it.
You're welcome to respond to the developer in that thread and ask for clarification, if our understanding of the developer's intent differs.
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To assume that this is BundleStar's fault from a one-sided story seems nonsensical - especially since the dev already admitted that they had a contract for those keys.
This all went down on friday night/saturday morning in most of the world. The dev was clearly ready to respond to their customer-abusing action since they were the ones DOING it, while BStars has had no opportunity to respond to this surprise action after weekly business hours.
Sounds to me like the devs provided game keys to fulfill a contract, then didn't like the timing of Bundlestars using those keys in a bundle - so revoked them all, including those that customers had already paid for (just hadn't activated yet). If this is the case, that would the developer's fault, unless the contract specified how/when the keys could be used, not just 'as per our expectations' (which is what the devs have said so far)..
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I thought this needed it's own separate topic because not everyone is reading the latest comments in Rachel's deal thread:
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/EA4Yb/bundle-stars-killer-bundle-8
Because of a dispute or some miscommunication with Bundle Stars, Star Ruler 2 was pulled from Killer Bundle 8, and all unredeemed keys -- including those in already purchased bundles -- have been voided (keys that have already been activated on Steam are OK, and will not be revoked). Straight from the developer:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117512016815
Because of this, if you have an active giveaway which contains a key from this bundle, you should delete it and contact Bundle Stars support for a resolution to this issue.
UPDATE (August 22): It appears that Bundle Stars and the developer have resolved their dispute, and replacement keys will be available:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/282590/discussions/1/355043117511869933/#c355043117522257089
UPDATE (August 23): Just got an email that lays out the details for getting a replacement key. It was not in response to a specific support request, but was sent to all purchasers of the original bundle:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/bundlestars/discussions/0/355043117525162695/
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