So, do you?
No proof it exists, so why should I believe in it?
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No proof it doesnt, so why shoudnt you believe in it?
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If I should start believing in anything that hasn't proven to non-exist, I should believe in pretty much everything I can think of.
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yes,definitely
The world would be a wonderful place, filled with unicorns and dragons
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Maybe it would, but believing in something isn't enough for it to exist unfortunately :P or else the world would be full of Pokémons.
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And does really existence change anything in the first place? I believe a lot of people exist and yet I don't like them.
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Have you ever thought how wonderful is the human body? What about how complex is our brain? And what about many other body parts? Let's think about our eyes. We don't need to see in colors to live, but we see and enjoy a wonderful view, like a sunshine. And what about taste? We don't need flavors to live. Eating same food with same flavour will keep us alive. But we enjoy different flavors and variety of food. And there are many other things to think about...
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Yes I do think about that, nature is really fascinating sometimes, we're really complex organic machines.
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A complex machine like magnetic resonance imaging scanner didn't showed up like nothing. We recognize there is a designer behind it. Why wouldn't we think in the same way with something infinitely more complex like the human body?
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Because we KNOW we have built those machines, simple as that.
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Yes..
But somehow, people are looking for real proof that God is exist
becoz people are much more likely to believing in things they can see / touch / feel
(I think this what u want to say)
-- But anyway --
Dunther, I was waiting for you
I'd like to trade now, but it seems Steam is down at my side (idk why can not access to Steam Network)
so have to wait until then
My apologize for the delay
When we both online on Steam
Let's trade (^^)b
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Are you saying god gave us color vision and taste buds, so we can enjoy life?
How about evolution created those, so we can detect dangers and survive.
As taste senses both harmful and beneficial things, all basic tastes are classified as either aversive or appetitive, depending upon the effect the things they sense have on our bodies. Sweetness helps to identify energy-rich foods, while bitterness serves as a warning sign of poisons.
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Yup, also there's stuff that (I think) has no real purpose, but you know...some could be just "evolution errors"
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Evolution means progress. Past centuries people lived better than nowadays. That's not progress. Indeed, humanity is each time more dangerous. That's not progress. Evolution is a theory; it had not been proved. Many scientists who research about life origin recognize there is no way to produce life from nothing. They recognized should exist a intelligent designer behind everything in universe.
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No matter how you name it, everything should be for good, not for bad. What do we see right now? Chaos everywhere, every day worse than previous. Evolution is not a hope. Indeed, evolution is destroying us.
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So if I were to "change" a light bulb it would evolve? :O
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is it a long term progress?
"evolution means change" was overly simplified to state that it does not mean progress (as in improvement), necessarily.
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"Past centuries people lived better than nowadays"
Ah yes, the time when you were extremely lucky to live to 2 years old and the mother was lucky to not die during pregnancy, such better lives were lived.!
"Evolution is a theory; it had not been proved"
Oh great, the "evolution is just a theory" quote, thank you for pointing out you do not know what a scientific theory is! Please do some research next time you decide to put your 2 cents in.
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Thanks josgba for giving a wonderful example of using the wrong definition in the wrong context. The definition for a "scientific theory" and not a "theory" (see that one has "scientific" in front of it) is
"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."
Darwin came up with a "scientific theory", not just a "theory."
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You are not talking about evolution when you say "there is no way to produce life from nothing"
You are talking about abiogenesis. Here is the definition for reference:
"Abiogenesis is the process by which a living organism arises naturally from non-living matter, as opposed to biogenesis, which is the creation of living organisms by other living organisms."
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I see you like to research. If I point out something to read for you, would you give it a look? I'm sorry that I can't give proper answers. In terms of technical talking, my English is poor. My English acknowledge is for just daily basis.
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To put it simply, evolution is "Selective Breeding/Natural Selection".
Example: In a habitat there are red bugs & black bugs. The birds prefer the taste of the red bugs, so soon there are many black bugs and few red bugs. The black bugs reproduce and make more black bugs and eventually there are no more red bugs (Natural selection). Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_CnR0Ak604 ("Artificial breeding" in the video which is still "Selective breeding" but influenced my humans).
"produce life from nothing" Is NOT evolution as Omniao stated.
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We don't need colors to live? Yeah we don't, but we are better because we see them, it's easier to distinguish everything from animals to food because we see colors, and improves daily life. We don't need flavors to live? No, we don't but because we can taste food we have a very varied diet which as far as i know is better for the body, so we're better off for it. Tasting food also makes us stay away from stuff that is bad for us as most of the time it will taste bad. Sure, you can say they both bring us joy, but they also both make us better. Everything you see as the work of some maker i see as the work of nature, as a result of evolution, they all make us more efficient organisms, they've made us the top predator of our world and they've made us able, for the most part, be the most resistant advanced organism when it comes to weather change, disease, etc.
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Show me how we came from soup and some fossils of animals in mid evolution and I will believe this. Till then evolution is not real and will never be real. :P
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Show me your God and have him make a new world in front of me in seven days complete with intelligent life. Until you do that your God is just an imaginary friend :P
(if it's not obvious enough this was a joke, and i hope the post i replied to was one as well)
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If there is god, S/he have really sick sense of humor.
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The ancient Greeks believed that anything bad in their lives, was a punishment from the Gods, but they still believed
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well, its proof that nothing has changed, and having a crude sense of humour, doesn't mean someone would believe in them.
Fear and explaining the unexplainable are the main reasons why gods exist in the first place
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ya. when we didn't know what caused thunder n lightning we created thunder n lightning Gods Zeus Thor Indra.
Now we know.
those gods became obsolete.
you're on a game site .
fun fact-every statement made by me here in the thread is reference. figure it out.
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Normally, I'm against threads like this. But as long as people are not discussing it seriously then it's probably not that risky.
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i thought all will be good ;.;
but nooooo you had to jinx it.
you said
as long as people are not discussing it seriously then it's probably not that risky.
you had to say it didn't you
we created monster of a thread
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Did this thread open a space-time portal back to 2005?
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we are not in 2005.
http://www.bttfhillvalley.co.uk/home.html
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...they could have done that in San Andreas.
I mean, it only makes sense.
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I surely hope if there was a god it wasn't as stupid as chuck norris.
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No i don't. There is no reason to either, no existing religion offers anything unique to them and there isn't a single piece of evidence that a "god" even exists.
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There also is no actual proof that god does not exists ;)
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There isnt any proof unicorns, the flying spagetthi monster, superman, spiderman, dragons, pokemon or any random fantasy creature doesnt exist either, which is why we dont believe in the aformentioned entities.
Your "argument" is extremely stupid.
TL:DR: The one who makes the claim is the one with the burden of proof.
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"An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed."
~ Carl Sagan
My argument is not stupid. There is no actul proof against the existence of god or any other kind of supreme being controlling our actions. Of course just because there is no evidence against it doesn't mean such being exists. I just believe that blindly believing or nonbelieving is foolish.
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"An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist"
Wrong.
https://www.google.com.au/#q=atheist+definition
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You might be mixing an atheist with this: https://www.google.fi/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=agnostic
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Er, no. That is YOU who are doing that. You are taking the word atheist and adding the word GNOSTIC to it, you are deliberately being misleading to create a strawman.
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I never said it is 100% true that a god does not exist, just that there isnt a single piece of evidence to make beliving in a god logical.
Also, this still: There isnt any proof unicorns, the flying spagetthi monster, superman, spiderman, dragons, pokemon or any random fantasy creature doesnt exist either, which is why we dont believe in the aformentioned entities. Beliving in such beings when there are no proof of their existance is not something people would do (and if they do, we call them insane), so why should this "god" person get special treatment?
And yes, if you claim beliving in something just because it hasnt been disproven a good idea, your argument IS extremely stupid.
Please answer me next instead of just posting a quote that is only semi-relevant to the subject at hand.
As it is now, "god" is in the exact same category as a Pokémon or unicorns.
le sigh
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I used a quote because I felt it explained the basis of my 'argument' very well. I could have used my own words to say the same thing, but I guess I am very fond of that quote as I am very fond of Carl Sagan as well. Also some of those fantastical creature you mentioned have been part of some old religions and back then believing in such beings was in no way considered insanity. Of course nowdays it is more or less so. Also I don't think and I never stated that God or gods should get any special treatment.
I have always felt that atheism is just another side of extreme belief. I prefer an agnostic view to the matter that leaves space for possibility of being wrong. I find it more likely that God does NOT exists over the existence of him but I don't absolutely deny God's possible existence. But then again it is just me.
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"Also some of those fantastical creature you mentioned have been part of some old religions and back then believing in such beings was in no way considered insanity."
Keyword: Was.
And old does not equal good or true. Double sigh
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I never claimed that just because something is old it equals good or true. I just wanted to point out that some of those creatures used to be part of old belief systems.
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Yes, i know "some of those creatures" used to be, but what is your point? It does not change anything.
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If there ever was a point I have already forgotten it. I was just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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The amount of different and yet valid answer i could write here are too many to count. So i won't.
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Either way I understand your way of thinking and I have nothing against it. It's just my personal preference to say there is no proof for or against the existence of God. Just to clear things out I do not believe in God. I just try to avoid saying there is no God since no matter how small the chance is I still think there is a possibility that God exists. How likely or unlikely that is, is irrelevant. I do not feel there is any logical need for the existence of a God, but as long as there is no solid proof I don't feel it's justified to say otherwise. But this is just my view and I am not saying your view is flawed.
Now that that is cleared out I think we can leave this at that. I'm not in search for a fight about the truths of our beliefs. I respect your belief and I have nothing against your way of thinking.
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I understood that.
And i just want to say that i do not rule out there being a god, just that they do not carry equal weight and that there is no reason to belive in a god as it is now, since all the evidence (or rather: lack of evidence) points one way.
Eh, at least we end this convo on good terms. On the internet at that! It's le miracle! (;3)
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We have no proof that faeries, leprechauns and the Easter Bunny don't exist either but we don't exactly go around asking people to worship them now do we? :)
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Belief in such beings has been part of some 'religions'. My grandmother used to believe in elves (not the tall pointy-eared once but the short stout ones) and left food outside of her house during important celebrations to avoid angering them.
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Be that as it may, believing still does not make something real. You can believe all day that a bag of money will drop from the sky but it will never happen. :)
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Never claimed it would make it real. People are just using creatures like that as a way to show how stupid such beliefs are, but at the same time forgetting that people at some point did believe in such things.
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But that's not what i was going for at all. I was just saying that simple comments like "you can't prove it's not real either" are meaningless. You're proving my point, yes, people used to believe in them at one point, now they know better and no longer believe in them :)
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if we spin this further, a few centuries later people will no longer believe in gods.
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I'm sure we will get there eventually. People moved on from the Greek Pantheon, the Norse Gods and many other, older pagan beliefs. They will likely eventually move on from the current ones as well. But knowing mankind it may end up being some global religion that you either join or die xD
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there is no actual proof that disapproves theory that earth is a supercomputer run by mice to find ultimate answer to the question of life.
I believe Mice n dolphins are mo intelligent than humans whose thoughts are regulated by dolphins n mice.
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You're free to believe what ever you want, but just because you do and someone else does not doesn't mean you or they are stupid.
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Also you can try to define someone's beliefs or lack of belief, but you can't define it for them.
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Yes I do, because I like the idea of going to heaven more than simply nothing after this life, or worse hell.
Yes I do, because having faith that there is a good just God up there with a plan is better than just accepting the chaos.
Yes I do, because I have nothing to lose if I'm wrong but if I am right and didn't believe I would lose everything.
But you know, that's just me. You all make your own choices.
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Not trying to mock your beliefs or anything but exactly what chaos are we talking about? There's other religions out there and there's also atheists, agnostics and people who just don't care, you don't exactly see any of them running around raping and pillaging now do you?
I completely understand people's need to believe in some greater power, no matter what name it was. It's fine, if it gives people comfort and makes their lives easier there's nothing wrong with that. But to say that without that belief the world would go to shit is just stupid, no offence.
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Oh not at all, I think the world would be perfectly civil and such even without religion, bar the case of criminals. I mean to say the chaos of uncertainty after everything and the meaning behind disasters and tragedies.
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Fair enough, that also falls into the giving comfort part. :)
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So according to you, no criminal has ever been religious? I MUST have read that wrong.
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I'm saying criminals exist within and without any other aspects. That's just human nature, to sin, if you'll permit the religious expression.
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You didnt answer my question. Or is this one of those "Everything good = god, Everything bad = just humans"-excuses?
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Yeah, of course you can still believe in God and be a terrible person who murders families and commits atrocities. Some people are so perverted as to use their belief as a reason in the first place. That's as good as blaming a crayon. People are crazy, and truly believing in God is more than just associating yourself with an idea.
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To me it just sounds like you attribute everything good in life to this "god", and everything bad is just because "thats how humans are".
Can you please stop tip-toing around the question and actually answer it?
Sigh
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You are correct. Man can still do good without God, but that's not their first instinct. Course there's satan too, but that's another story.
Your question? Yeah I thought I have. There are many accounts of criminals who are religious. A lot of people use the name of their god to do terrible things.
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"Course there is Satan too..." Facepalm
You know what? As long as you dont try to force your delusions (yes, delusions, a somewhat strong wording, but true.) down someone elses throat, i do not really have a problem with it.
It would be nice if any of you (you as in those who are religious) could offer any actual evidence for once.
Something to think about: If you believe in an omnipotent being and/or hear voices (and similar), most would not hesitate to call you insane, but if that being or voice is called "god", you are "just" religious. (I'm sure you will come up with some way to rationalize this, at least to yourself, but it might be an interesting thought to others.)
Yes, i do come off kind of like an asshole, but if i told random people about any unproven and wild beliefs i might have had, that is the normal reaction i would get back.
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Yeah of course. Actual proof would make this whole bit a lot easier huh? Then we wouldn't need faith, and we wouldn't even need to accept anything, as we'd all know for sure that it did happen. You're right, it sounds crazy. So does the concept that we're all made of millions of atoms forming molecules that compose everything we see and feel. I haven't ever seen an atom, I don't think anyone really has, but I know they exist, as I'm sure you do too. Because it's science, and as long as it's not religion that means it's not just some crazy ramblings from an old man with a beard.
Swedra, if I didn't believe as I did, I would probably say the exact same things you are saying, so I don't blame you at all. I apologize if all I'm doing is making you angry.
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Except that there is proof to show these atoms and how they work. There is a big difference. You don't seem to get it.
Also, why do i get the feeling you think that faith (believing without evidence) is something positive? (No, i dont ask my mother to prove she loves me when she says that, but that is not even close to being in the same category of "faith".)
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I could look at everything around me and point and say "so that's how God works. That's the evidence". That'd still require faith wouldn't it? It's a lot like swimming though, bear with me. You see the water and it's deep and scary and you don't know how to swim. You'll never learn unless you jump in there and just start swimming. I don't rely on my own self to believe, I think just choosing to believe in the first place helps. Then you've got the Holy Spirit inside of you, and that makes believing easier. It's not something that's easily conveyed to a nonbeliever. I'm not trying to be condescending, but yeah the real test is the faith part, then the other reasons just fall into place. Take it as you will.
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No, that is not evidence at all. Pointing at a random thing saying "that is how god works" does not show anything, and even less that such a god even exists.
Also, are you seriously trying to convert me right now? The stomach of some people...
You are only speaking empty words. You seem to start from the assertion that a god exists, an assertion that i fully deny, since nether you nor anyone else have shown in any way that that assertion is true in any way.
You think choosing to belive in the first place is a good thing? As long as it is YOUR belief, am i right? If someone just up and chose to belive in lets say: ethnic cleansing and the power of human sacrifices, would you accept that since they just "chose to belive" in it?
You are not making a very good case (if any at all) here. The only thing you have given me are baseless assertions and "arguments" that only make sense if one has already fallen for said baseless assertions. Is this how it is going to countinue?
I'm not sure why i bother, trying to use logic and reason on something (something = faith) that requires you to not use logic and reason is paradoxial at best.
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So you're saying atoms could just be a belief and not exist at all?
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You cant prove something that is made up by people's imagination. No matter how much you try to make them see it, they'll come up with some wrong examples trying to tell you there is proof or that you dont need it.
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I know, it's kind of meaningless when it comes to the person one is discussing with, but i just can't let their delusions go unanswered.
(I know you didn't mean it that literal.)
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Thank you for your comment! I have a question for you though. You said you will lose everything, if you don't believe. Why?
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Because, at least when it comes to Christians you either believe or you're fucked as far as they're concerned, in the afterlife i mean. I should know, they repeated it in church every Sunday when i used to go as a kid.
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To put it better, yeah if I chose not to believe and it turned out everything was true, then I guess I have eternity in hell to consider that. I'm not saying I know any of this for a fact, that's what faith is about. In the end, ignoring any other convictions or ideas, a lot of the choice whether to take that step and believe or not boils down to playing it safe, right? I love God and He loves me, and I get to go to heaven. Win win.
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See this is the part that actually bothers me. Why? Why does it matter if someone believes or not. Why the need for worship and conversion of others? You'd think that for any merciful and all-knowing being such things would mean nothing, that it would be more important if his creation is simply a good person deep down. It's this mindset of "you're either with me or against me" that turns me off when it comes to the major western religions, not just Christianity.
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Well, that's when you have to start taking faith. Sin separates us from God, so we can't achieve anything by just being good people. That's where the need to believe and, importantly, accept Jesus comes into play. Jesus is God, but sacrificed with all our sins so that we only need to accept that he did this for us, that it really happened and that they really love us, and we are cleansed. It's all detailed more in the Bible, whether you believe it or not that'd be a good place to look for answers to these questions too.
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But that's the issue. Why is not believing a sin? An all powerful being should not require anyone's belief or worship, it's not some giant hand in the sky that needs prayer to generate mana. Being a good person means just that, being a good person, you're nice to others, you help others, etc. Why would that not be enough? This "my way or get fucked" ideology is what bothers me and i think most people who chose to not believe/believe in something else. All this talk about love yet it all boils down to fear of eternal suffering.
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The sin is everything else. Ever lied? Been angry? Lusted? Been greedy? Basically been a human? You've sinned. And that's where believing comes in. It is pretty sad that those who don't believe just get carted off to hell, but they made their choice and that's the rules. I don't make them, God does. That's a pretty sucky answer, but that's really the best I got. The rest is up to you man.
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Please provide proof of your "beliefs" before you start shoving it onto people like if it was actual truth.
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So, the god hates us so much? He made us like this, so we are sinners because of him, yet he punish us for this.
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We are born sinners because originally Adam and Eve sinned. They were made without sin, but still they chose sin. And that sin is passed down. Hope that answers your question.
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@Honest: And you continue to make your baseless claims and assertions while ignoring pleads for you to justify and prove them. If i got a penny each time a religious person did this....
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They were made so they could sin. God wanted them to sin, otherwise he would not made them sinners. And then, he punished Adam and Eva for his fault. If it was not because he hate them, then why?
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Ah so belief is basicly a get out of jail card? You can screw up from time to time, as long as you believe the big guy in the sky will look the other way. See if God(or w/e people chose to call him) really is all knowing and merciful he should already know that his creation is flawed by nature and understand any slip-ups it has as a design flaw, but no,it's still down to fear, not love. This is why religion is flawed in my opinion.
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Our nature was due upon us by a choice, and only a choice can save us again. It's complicated and I can't say I'm an expert at any of this, I haven't gone to seminary, I'm not studied in all the works of those who I am sure would put up a greater argument for believing than I have, I'm just a guy who answered some questions trying to help you understand, not trying to win you over or anything as that pretty much has to come from within.
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And i was not trying to convince you not to believe, i'm just trying to show you that pro-religion arguments may not be as convincing to others as they sound to the one trying to make them and counter arguments can always be made :)
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Isn't such an attitude enough to participate in the Tour de Hell?
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you're faith is based on fear of punishment, great religion you've got there.
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My personal faith is based on love saving me from punishment, but yeah anyone can find anything to base their beliefs on. I'm not saying the basis for my belief is any better than the basis for yours.
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You are talking about Pascal's wager, which is wrong because of other religions. http://i.imgur.com/aVSVQ.png
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This aint gonna end well, my answer:
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I don't, I'm catholic because my parents are and I was also in the religion classes in school, but NO. I do like to think there is something, because some people need "him".
I much rather believe there are some kind of Aliens rather than God, because there's so much we don't know, but so much we know that makes him unlikely to exist, but whatever, religion to me is something that gives people in need some kind of hope, but I'm against any kind of religious fanatics of any religion.
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Funnily enough in the old Finnish folklore Finns believed that the bear was the son of God and that it had an immortal soul. Also they believed that we descendant from bears and worshipped them as almost holy beings.
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interesting, i must check finnish folk lore sometime, book talk about scanadavian folk lore is .. pretty much non-existence here
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These topics never end well.
Specially when the thread creator cannot even be bothered to add a description to their discussion.
Made sure to have a poll though.
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As soon as I saw the title, I just rolled my eyes.
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wow wow wow
now the people are starting to posting comments which leads to a battlefield
Let's switch to Origin and play Battlefield :DDDD
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Well, I didn't say that he DOESN'T exist, but I more believe in science so 'not sure' for me
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I'd like to, but I can't. Maybe (maybe!) there is a bigger power than us, but it's definitely not like our god concept in my opinion. Rather the lovecraftian one - he (or she, or they) doesn't care about all humanity, and even less about individuals.
About religion: sounds strangely, but I love the concept of religions - teaching base knowledge, living together, help eachother - these are universally present in most religions. But the big ones just didn't succeed. I was at a christening not a long time ago, and man... Christianity is said to be a great religion, preaching about love, the loving jesus, love your brethen... and yet half of the ceremony was about " She's found Jesus so she won't burn amongst eternal hellflames until the end of time" - I'm not even baptized - thank you for shoving your idea of eternal damnation into my face while smiling. So, it's just creepy - when there is an option of good (christianity, heaven) and a bad if you don't choose the other (hell) is just menacing.
Eh, wrote too long about random stuff. But a little more: A god and religion concept I could cope with is God of Naure / Spirits of the Nature one.
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I dont care if you believe in a god or dont. As long as you dont bother me or my family with it.
Sadly I get bothered by it a lot. Ranging from people selling their beliefs at my front door to watching the evening news seeing people get killed and raped in the name of tha mighty lord (not Gaben).
Religion frightens me, it makes people do crazy things. No things a god would agree with.
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Which god are you referring to? If you mean Our Heavenly Father, Random, then obviously my answer is - Yes, I believe in Random. But if you talking about any other false gods - beware! Day of judgment is coming! And random people would get random punishment!
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