And mental help, one of the biggest things next to housing and heroin is probably haldol or other anti-psychotics. Let's call it the HHH plan :)
It's been a thing in The Netherlands, "Free heroin" in the 90's in Amsterdam:
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Yep, sometimes things seem expensive and costly in the short term. But in the long term it can actually end up being, not only the nicer approach, but ends up costing less, and prevents issues. I personally support the idea of a universal basic income for similar reasons.
But I don't necessarily blame people for being in the short term mindset (especially if they are living lives that almost necessitate that kind of thinking like living paycheck to paycheck), so it's important to calmly and rationally explain these things rather than mocking someone for thinking a certain way.
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Nah.
gonna keep treating homeless people and drug addicts like a sub species. it just feels like a better plan to me.
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Yeah, well we can't really ask them. So maybe they do, but it was more like thye can't support themselves like a human with a human-like job, to earn our human money, to live with human responisibilities.
While all responisibilities can be challenged everything is comparible. Responsibility of children, for animals its taking care of them until they can provide for themselves, with us its the same basic principle but yet theres so much more to teach as there are so many more responsibilities and just "stuff" to know.
Then theres also the question of how long these animals live compared to humans, the resource intake (factoring in electricity, internet and other wanted "needs") in comparision to humans.
They also provide emotional support which people can do, but the unconditional support they provide is better as you're not having to rely on a person's "work ethic" to be an emotional support as there's a greater chance that if a human doesn't want to be nice, they wont.
I'm a miserable, disgusting and pessimistic peice of shit, but I know if someone had the choice of making me or my dog not homless anymore I'd ask them to take my dog and put me down.
It's not that I think that homeless people don't deserve housing, just in the neighberhood I live in, I know those around me who are homless don't deserve it. And the few that do, refuse help as they still have their pride.
I know it doesn't apply to everyone, but out of personal expereince, those that do, do, and those that don't, don't do.
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i hate to even ask, but you're being sarcastic, right?
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better not to talk about how here in Italy we've always "handled" all these issues.. =\
thinking about these things makes me feel always to live in a country which has little in common with the most of europe.. and I'm northern italian, but probably we're just "good" for what concerns GDP and jobs.. for all the other rankings we're always like 100th in the whole world, from freedom of press to all these social issues =\ it's really impossible to compare us to the rest of europe (most of it at least), when I leave my country I feel like I'm traveling to another continent and yeah, this is seen every day for what concerns drug issues, mental health, homelessness, neatness, everything else that is not money and factories =\
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I'm Italian and I totally disagree. This is the common attitude of the average Italian guy: we are bad, the others are good. Go travel around the world (no need to go far, just some "not advertised" area of very close European countries is enough) and then let's talk again.
And better you double-check some rankings about Italy (the important ones), you will be surprised (additional hint: also check who did the ranking).
PS: Senza rancore, ma viaggiando molto e vivendo all'estero sono diventato intollerante con chi denigra il nostro paese ;) che cmq di difetti ne ha, non lo nego...
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io conosco bene solo l'europa perché ho viaggiato pochissimo fuori, mio padre faceva il fotoreporter e ha girato il mondo ma fino a 20 30 anni fa e quindi non ho un'idea aggiornata.. sono stato tante volte in egitto per vari motivi e ovviamente là la situazione è pure imparagonabile, però passo ogni anno qualche settimana in polonia per motivi familiari e ti assicuro che quando vado là a zamosc/lublino c'è gente che a 20 anni parla perfettamente 4 lingue e fa 3 lavori e ce la mette nel culo senza il minimo problema, io sono emiliano, vivo due mesi all'anno a palermo e ho la fortuna di viaggiare spesso in europa, passando il natale scorso in svizzera sembrava seriamente di essere in un altro mondo, sì abbiamo il pil e tutto quanto ma anche solo il passaggio tra la lombardia e lugano per me è stato come andare in un altro continente e parlo del dicembre 2019, sotto praticamente ogni aspetto, poi me ne sbatto il cazzo nel senso che vivo benissimo sia a palermo sia in emilia ma è inutile negare come siamo messi qui e quel che succede, è inutile negare che il 75% di reggio emilia sia costruito dalla ndrangheta, per non parlare di quel che vedo a bologna e stando come dicevo 2 mesi almeno a palermo città.. ti dico, in polonia si costruiscono ancora le case con l'amianto ma ai politecnici qui al nord ci sono i polacchi che sanno 4 lingue a 20 anni mentre noi facciamo il liceo classico, rimandiamo indietro i fondi all'europa perchè non sappiamo spenderli mentre anche per una stazione del cazzo di un tram polacco c'è il simbolo dell'unione europea da cui hanno pigliato soldi, io ho quest'attitudine perché è così da quando sono nato.. vedo in europa come trattano i problemi e torno qui e vedo che la camorra ha delegato ai nigeriani la vendita di droga (tanto problemi non ne hanno), parlando con i ticinesi o con i tirolesi ho visto ben altre situazioni.. figuriamoci al nord.. e come dicevo l'est è una sorpresa =P
e ti assicuro ho vissuto a bologna gli anni delle lauree e a palermo ci vivo e c'è poco da difendere purtroppo, io ho accettato tutto questo e mi diverto da matti, consapevole che in un altro paese europeo non potrei mai fare niente di tutto questo..
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of course =P but the east of Europe just to say is making huge steps forward, they come here to study (speaking perfect english, italian, german and/or french even if they speak a Slavic language) in our best universities in milan, turin etc. and with the aid of EU funds they go back to their countries building like everything while we stick with infrastructures built in the '60s (everything else is built by mafia btw) and every day a bridge falls down to the ground, 3 days ago just to say a huge ship with hundreds of passengers aboard, trucks and so on sailed from Genoa and had to go back after 1 hour 'cos it had a massive breakdown - all the passengers had been forced with their own money to take another ship from fucking Rome. I was there (at the port of Rome) waiting in line and we talked to lots of guys who had to go from Genoa to Rome overnight (6 hours or more by car, 8 hours by train) just to sail to Sicily. This is what happens every day here and traveling through Europe.. they don't experience such things on a daily basis.. =P not to talk about our neighbors Swiss and Austrians..
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The thing is - these plans do cost money, they are not for free.
And that cost comes from citizens - from taxes, from budget that would have gone somewhere else.
Most of the world is too egoistic and selfish to actually help others. American healthcare system is the perfect example. People dont want to pay for medicine from taxes because that means they are paying for someone else to get treatment. How are you going to explain to people that their money is going towards helping homeless and drug addicts ? And then consider that in lot of European countries people dont even pay taxes and shadow economy is as big as it can get.
Basically we have to sacrifice if we want better future and modest living level for everyone. But no one wants to do that. People are very shortsighted and egoistic.
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The thing is - these plans do cost money, they are not for free.
But the argument is that you can actually save money, because you save a lot of the costs that addicts usually generate (hospital, crime...).
How are you going to explain to people that their money is going towards helping homeless and drug addicts ?
It's baffling to me how people can view helping people in need as a negative.
Basically we have to sacrifice if we want better future and modest living level for everyone. But no one wants to do that. People are very shortsighted and egoistic.
Unfortunately, yes.
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But saving money eventually is already a long term investment that many cant get around their thick heads so I suppose that's where it all stops. But hopefully more and more people will realize that being dicks doesnt make life better.
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But the egoistic mindset goes something like this - "Paying 100 out of my pocket is direct expenses. I'll just keep my eye on my bike, let them steal someone elses bike. let them pay for it if they cant secure it. But screw anyone who steals anything from me."
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People dont want to pay for medicine from taxes because that means they are paying for someone else to get treatment. How are you going to explain to people that their money is going towards helping homeless
In my country healthcare is available for all, with mandatory taxes on wadges, paid directly by employers on behalf of employees. Almost everyone is OK with that (I won't go into financial balance of the system, it is a whole subject for another discussion). Helping homeless here is done by many associations, but also by state or local administrations, so on tax payers money. It's widely considered as basic charity.
French society is also very selfish on many aspects, but people here are mostly attached to current healthcare system.
A bit of a cultural thing ?
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But people still try to get around the system, trying to get out of paying taxes so more money is left for them.
I'd say it's definitely a cultural thing. I am from eastern Europe and a lot of people here have lived in soviet union. Eventually caring only about themselves and trying to get more for themselves. Many young people have adapted this mindset from their parents as well.
A lot of people try to scam others, participate in shadow economy because fuck others, they only need the money for themselves. The best argument they have is "fuck politicians, im not feeding them".
Charities ? Fuck charities, why should they support someone who cant do that for themselves. Old people ? who cares if they die from covid, who cares if many old people dont have money at all, who cares if they cant get to hospitals.
Broken old car ? Just going to wash it, scroll back the odometer and call it a new one and sell it for a fortune, let the next sucker deal with it.....
And these people will definitely not care about paying extra to fix up situation with addicts and homeless people...
Although I am happy to see new generations are more and more understanding and less egoistic. Though we arent lacking such assholes.
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The problem in eastern Europe is after the fall of the soviet union and yugoslavia it really is everyone for themselves. Since the leading politicians set that as an example of how people should live, you have to adapt to those rules or disappear. Even if you wish to live honestly, you have to keep an extra eye out not to be screwed.
What was only meant to be damage control from the union falling apart lasted long enough to turn into greed because there was nobody to keep them in check/neither they were responsible enough to stop by themselves, so here we are.
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Helping homeless here is done by many associations, but also by state or local administrations, so on tax payers money. It's widely considered as basic charity.
I don't know about that because the streets of Paris are filled with the homeless, and not just in the summer.
I volunteer every year with a charity, funded almost entirely by private donations, for the distribution of blankets and hot food to the hundreds of homeless people who failed to place in the few shelters around the city and are left to die by the dozens from the cold.
It doesn't seem like the problem is solved, taken care of or that the surface is even scratched.
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We even had a trial run for "free money"
As much as people would want others to recover it doesn't really change the fact that it's extremely costly and how much of it actually goes back to circulation is debateable.
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You're not understanding the point where it saves money in the future when it will cost less. The result of your kind of thinking is rioting in the streets of USA right now.
More happiness = less depression, less healthcare costs, less suicides etc etc.
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This. Unless my taxes are cheap, fuck that. It almost pays to be homeless there?
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The thing is you're already paying for them. Whether they get rounded up and jailed, convicted of crimes, hospitalized because of poor health, or even picked up in the street when they're dead, you're paying for it.
Isn't it better to pay a fraction of these costs when they're still alive to give them a chance and some dignity and to avoid much higher costs to the taxpayers later?
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In some countries, the homeless can reach out for help, in others, people need to fend for themselves. Despite having welfare where it exists, a lot of these people live in substandard conditions and they have poor health. It's also not surprising that you mention drug addiction as well, since many people start using drugs, become addicted, then get into trouble when the habit runs out of control--starting a cycle of craving more drugs, buying more, using more, and ultimately running out funds. The trouble gets worse when they start selling important things or worse, stealing from friends/family and ultimately beyond, just to feed the habit. It starts being a way to get that rush/high, but ultimately it becomes a nightmarish cycle to stop withdrawal symptoms mostly. I think reaching out for help from all available resources, admitting to the problems, and mentally gearing up for a long road to recovery is a step in the right direction. How to get rid of these problems completely from society? I have no idea, though I wish I did.
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How to get rid of these problems completely from society? I have no idea, though I wish I did.
More emphasis on help and prevention than on punishment and criminalization would be a good place to start.
Most people who live in the street get there because of addiction, alcoholism, crippling debts and/or mental disorders.
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I agree to give them everything they want, even drugs, why not, dealers are assholes anyway, but they need to follow a psychiatric treatment, many people are in the streets because they have serious diseases and living in the streets just makes them more insame. Nobody gives a shit so one day they push someone on the rails of the subway because they think the guy wants to hurt them.
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And they are avoiding healthcare because they fear it will lead to problems with cops. If you give them free drugs in a controlled environment they can get healthcare both physical and psychical at the same time. This also saves them time that they aren't spending stealing your things for better uses like school or work. The only loser in this is the dealer who has to find honest work instead.
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Finland population - 5.518 million
Norway population - 5.368 million
United States population - 328.2 million
That difference alone is the reason why this method wouldn't work in most other countries. The U.S. can't afford to pay for homes and free drugs for so many addicts. Neither can most other large countries.
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How about you just stop spending trillions on bombs to drop on countries that have oil? Magically you will have lots of money for even education and healthcare.
So you're saying that you need to do it on the State level instead of Federal? Sure does sound like a nice excuse to never do anything.
It's quite simple math, at least for our 1st graders, that if you have 100 people paying for 1 addict, it's the exact same as if 100 million people are paying for 1 million addicts. Nobody has to pay anything more because there are more people paying just as there are more people needing it.
EU taxes the member countries and handles bit larger issues than those. Why should I care what problems EU solves to wave my flag?
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Umm what? Where exactly did I say that? I said EU handles bigger issues. Homelessness is an issue the member countries handle on their own just like your States proving that they are perfectly able to do so if they wish. First you imagine I don't know how your States work, then you compare them to EU countries and when I do the same comparison you don't know how they work. Pick one finally?
Why would we accept homeless addicts from other countries? But yes inside EU people can move freely. Where do you get these silly ideas even? Are you saying the only way USA can handle any problem is to have someone else do it for you? Is that how weak you are and have to hide behind a huge army so nobody sees the weakness?
Didn't they teach you at school that the cold war is over? It's all about economy these days, not how many million times you can destroy the whole Earth with your nukes. But I guess it's a foreign concept to people who only care about having enough assault rifles to defend against other people with assault rifles.
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Yeah right I'm the one who's stuck in their silly ways and not listening to alternatives. I'm a parrot because I think choosing the best way is best. You're the intolerant bigot here with no education except how to shoot assault rifles.
Have you ever thought about anything yourself or did you just read it all from NRA ads? Have you ever wondered why your education system is on par with 3rd world countries?
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Maybe this money can go to the homeless and addicts and better serve us.
Right, as if that would ever happen in a country like America. Especially with the current "president".
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Well, plus Norway doesn't count cos they are filthy rich. :P
Many countries don't have enough housing for the X, Y and Z generations, the housing bubble has gridlocked the system.
Solving most problems is easy on paper, but the higher the population, the more dominoes to reset, and one mistake can bring it all down again.
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Here we solve lack of housing by building more apartments, but I guess that's too hard for some. Actually in most Western countries each generation is smaller than the one before so once the big age classes die, there will be a shortage of workers to pay taxes, at least that's what they keep saying.
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I'm from the Netherlands, numbers for 2020 say there are 331.000 houses required to fill demand.
They built 71.000 in 2019, and because of new CO2 and nitrogen regulations that will drop to 55.000 and 50.000 this year and next year.
Our population is going up due to immigration, boomers dying will not "help" enough.
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We have that problem only in our capital area where all the immigrants and young people want to live. Rest of the country is filled with vacant houses after the old people die so if someone chooses to be homeless there instead of living in a free house bit further that's their own choice I'd say.
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A) Start by raising this topic in the appropriate place and not in the game giveaway site, maybe?
B) Younger generations need to stop acting as if they have all the answers to all the problems in the this world; I know this feeling, but when you get just a little older and start learning new things - you realize how more complicated the problems are than you originally thought.
C) Just because some countries with homogeneous population, high social trust and specific history and culture (Scandinavian in this example) managed to achieve success in specific areas does not mean the same solutions can be applied to every other place around the world. I don't want to look mean, so don't get me wrong, but seriously, no need to lecture anyone
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Why should I start anything? I wanted to post a comic here and that's exactly what I did. You do what you want.
What younger generations are you talking about? How old should I be to know anything, 60? 80? We're talking about tested theories that just work in practice.
Yeah sure that excuse can always be used for everything. But is it ever true? How did you look mean?
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It's the off-topic section. We discuss all kinds of things here. SG discussions are not limited to games.
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You think it's simplistic to use the best way to handle problems? And that any large country can do as poorly as they want with no effort for the better with just that excuse? "It can't be done!!" "Have you ever tried?" "No but it can't be done because I'm so big!!"
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I think it's simplistic to assume that your way is the best way, and that just because something works in one situation it would work in all situations. I also think it's simplistic to make assumptions that are, quite frankly not even closely in line with what I said.
America is a shitshow, partly because it refuses to learn from anyone else. You can't simply say "copy our solution, it worked for us", because the culture, attitude, and institutions here are very different. As a matter of fact, the way people think and the way people live in some parts of the country is alien to the way other people think and live in other parts of the country.
I'm not saying it isn't a good idea worth trying, I'm saying it's impossible to get off the ground..
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Well fortunately that is their own problem. But nothing stops others from making fun of their lack of effort, whatever you wish to blame for it.
You have to start small and then grow big, not like anyone even assumes something is done on a global level before it's tested in 1 place, then couple more etc.
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Yes, only a house, that is the conclusion this highly educated woman came up with :)
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This is absolutely correct. The best way to end homelessness is to give homeless people housing, which is actually incredibly obvious. It's called the housing first model, and if you look up housing first and your town, it's pretty likely you can find an activist group to be a part of and work towards ending homelessness . Here's a group I volunter with sometimes. https://justhousingolympia.org/
Housing is a human right and the current state of society where wealthy landowners sell subscriptions to shelter for profit is completely inhumane. But a lot of people make huge profits off of it, and those people stand in the way of progress so they can continue to profit. Meanwhile in america there are about 500,000 homeless and 7 million vacant homes, most of which belong to banks who foreclosed on subprime mortgages during the last recession. But our government bailed out the banks instead of homeowners, despite the fact these mortgages were built to fail, and the crisis was manufactured for profit.
For more information on the state of things in america, On The Media did a very good podcast series on eviction called the scarlet E: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/scarlet-e-part-one-why
Their series on debunking american poverty myths is just as incredible, though they are both a bit on the depressing side. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/projects/busted-americas-poverty-myths
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It was nice to see your post for the same reason, so I had to reply!
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couldn't agree more. make their lives easier and get these people out of the rut they're stuck in. i know from personal experience that people can absolutely turn their lives around if given the chance.
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But how will I feel better about myself if I don't have someone to treat as less than human?
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Those travelers or whatever they are called in English aren't really homeless since they are choosing it themselves. Most of the actual homeless want to drink and do drugs not because they think it's a good idea but because it's the only thing giving them a brief escape from harsh reality. Or they can even be homeless because of drinking the rent money and having wild drug parties trashing the place. These addictions can be helped much better by taking care of their basic needs first so they have time and energy to focus on improving their life.
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Very nice post, MissDefi. Clearly you speak from experience and what you say has the ring of truth. I've been to some of those places too and struggled with addiction in my past. To have the will to quit is the most important thing, and in our country, which has so many problems, the best thing we can do now to is provide services that help people help themselves when they are ready. And currently, we don't do that very well. I really don't think that those services can be made available to everyone everywhere and not just left to the charity of local and state government until we have medicare for all (which 70% of Americans want anyway). In any event, giving drugs to addicts not only doesn't really help them, it's not even feasible without universal health care. It's like putting the cart before the horse.
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Here you can just walk to a pharmacy and get free medicine if you're poor. Everyone gets a part of the price subvented by government and people on welfare get the rest paid too just like all public doctor/hospital bills etc. This also leads to medicine being affordable because the subvention model has a max price for them.
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I think most will feel worse if they see their friend dying or getting seriously ill because they couldn't afford couple pills that cost almost nothing to manufacture just to enable rich bastards getting richer. If you can get your medicine you are much more likely to be able to work and pay taxes as well.
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How about trying to help addicts via properly funded rehabs? Giving them drugs for free just to have less issue with them is morally bankrupt and still allow them to ruin their health.
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Rehabs work much worse and more of them just keep going back to drugs anyways. Living on the streets and doing whatever laundry detergent the dealer chose to cut his drugs this time is what is ruining their health. If they can get free medicine grade drugs there are literally very minor health issues involved and since they go to places where nurses check on their health and help them it actually improves their health in several ways.
But if you want the illusion that rehab is doing something while making things worse pick that then, but don't complain when they steal your stuff to pay for the unclean street drugs.
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You are wrong mate or you are talking about a backward coutries rehabs. Let me translate this for you ,,Badania ewaluacyjne programu CANDIS przeprowadzone w Niemczech wskazują, że osiągnięty w badaniu wskaźnik abstynencji 51% i 45%, w katamnezie 3 i 6 miesięcy od zakończenia leczenia, jest znacząco wyższy niż w wielu innych badaniach prowadzonych w podobnych populacjach pacjentów; wskaźnik ten wynosił od 23% do 34% (Hoch i wsp., 2011).'' You have a 51 and 45 % or success of rehad after 3 and 6 months of the end of treatment acordign to CANDIS in Germany. Other european nations like Poland which have resonable funded rehab's have a bit worse but still similar succes rate. Proper rehab can return at least some peopel back to society. giving them away drugs for free is basicly slowly killing them without pulling the triger.
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And you imagine 45-51% after 3 or 6 months is a great success? Do they really quit and how many times do they go to rehab on average?
Poor backwards European countries like these can't afford good rehab I guess:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/switzerland-addiction-prescribed-heroin/
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-norway-free-heroin-drug-addicts.html
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Starwhite mate since when Germany and poland are poor and backwards? Serously mate, 45-51 % is insanly big succes. It is much healthier for people affect and for society in general to cure drug addicts instead fo enablign their bad habits.
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Where did I say anything like that? Seriously 50% success for a year and then everyone going bad to drugs is a horrible result. You're getting it all completely reversed. The current model is the one enabling them and keeping them away from society and the only ones benefiting from it now are the drug dealers.
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Why would I need to deny something so ridiculous that only a troll like you would spout? Say something that is backed up with bit more than your trolling and I'll respond in other ways than just laughing at you.
You're the one that still keeps bringing it up so it tells much more about you little troll and about your master of fake news.
Where exactly did I say my opinion is the only opinion? You do realize that facts override opinions right? So you can have an opinion that just is false like yours.
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You really are confused. So according to you to not be a bigot you need to your absolute worst in handling every problem? You just keep making less and less sense so it's quite obvious that you're only trolling. But keep going, it's fun to laugh at you. :D
Do you even know how mirrors work with such a lack of education that you're showing? Is that really what they taught you at school? And you imagine it's called critical thinking?
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You're so cute when you can't do anything other than obvious trolling because you lost an argument :D
You should at least try and improve your trolling a little bit. Then people could laugh with you instead of at you. Then you wouldn't be angry and sad any more but happy like me. But you can also just keep on with your weak trolling, either works for my amusement so don't worry.
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So you really are that confused about everything? Yeah that must be sad for you. At least admitting this has been the first step on your quest to not be a sad ugly soul.
What could be a better way to prove that you're a better person than to constantly do weak personal attacks in the hopes that anyone will ever believe your bullshit? How about actually being a better person, have you ever thought about that?
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How are they baseless or fake when you're doing your best (or worst?) to prove them right? And you imagine I'm the insecure one here? Do you often feel questions are attacks? No wonder you're so sad all the time. This might even be the root cause for your unhappiness.
You're the one spamming your weak trolling with a frothing mouth all the time. You have proven that you only care about weak trolling and being wrong and you call others sad or little, that's the real sad thing here if you really imagine you're doing anything else. But keep it on, I like to laugh at little troll whelps like you :D
Where did I say that I care or don't care about homeless or addicts? Maybe if you stopped imagining things and making stuff up it would make it easier for you to communicate with other people.
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Interesting that you prefer renaming workers and tax payers to gangsters just so you can rename everything to ghettos. And you imagine that process produces the best result? Success is not measured by the number of ghettos or gangs you know?
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if you need the perpective from a poorer country within the EU.
Portugal used to have a drug problem, and the number of drug addict decreased considerably employing similar methods.
hell, back when i was a kid rundown factories were filled with them And now you don't see them anymore.
they were provided help, a place to sleep, needles, methadone.
Soon enough they were pretty much just like every other member of society. A lot of workers still get methadone, and their perfectly capable of working regardless.
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That's where the almost comes. Without it they would be legal, now they are not. But it's almost legal to smoke weed in Amsterdam too since you can just go to a cafe to do it freely.
And that professional aid is exactly one of the benefits of giving free drugs to addicts. It just has plenty more and costs less.
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All there is to it
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