"Waiting for a sale" "Waiting for it to get bundled"

There are actually many counter points to your argument regarding Indie games OP.
For one, there's a fair bit of data that shows indie game sales GO UP, and drastically, in the times right after big sales and bundles. They also help get games out there that people otherwise may never have seen or been willing to try otherwise.

In fact, I've read things (From tweets, to blog posts, to full fledged articles) written by Indie Devs that talk all about how well they've done BECAUSE of bundles, and even showing metrics for the sales, not counting the bundle itself, skyrocketing around them because word gets around and suddenly tons more people want to buy the games. I read one guy say something like 75%+ of all his game sales on the Steam store happened around bundles and sales, and a fair chunk of that was immediately after sales ended, so was actually at full price.

And then another big counterpoint is the fact that we are simply freaking FLOODED with Indie games anymore.
There are hundreds of them coming through Greenlight, 75-100 at a time each time they do a batch of new Greenlit titles. It's overwhelming. This article is largely all about that.

It's a wonderful thing to support the devs you love. And I think most of us do that. For example I've loved doublefine for years. I had Psychonauts on PC well before I got it on Steam, and then I showed it off to friends when it was on Steam here as well and got some of them desperately wanting it and anything else Double Fine. I've owned 3 copies of Brutal Legend, bought for a friends 360 to play, and then when I got my own PS3, and then later here for Steam. But I'm not going to pay full price for things from just one of the like hundred thousand wannabe devs that drops some random "game" on Steam, without first knowing if they do anything worth caring about. And there are so many that there's no way I'm going to sit down and go "gee, I should research every Indie game on Steam and find out if they and/or their Devs are awesome or not." So bundles have been great. I've tried a bunch of Indie things I would never have tried before, and found a few devs that I'd love to continue supporting. Hence I dearly want Transistor, when before I played Bastion which I got in a Humble Bundle, I would likely have never even looked at.

As a white middle class male, I find that you sound very much like a white middle class male. Privilege weaves its way throughout your original post. You and I can afford to pay $10 for every interesting indie game that comes out, but there are people who are poor, happen to have a PC (maybe given as a gift or hand-me-down), and really want to play games, and those people can't afford to spend $10 every week or two to buy the newest, coolest indie game. I'm sure you can't blame them for wanting to enjoy their most-likely-more-stressful-than-your-own lives a little bit after putting in nine hours at a mind-numbing, low-paying job.

Now, for those like you and me, sure, as I said previously, we can afford it, but that would make us idiotic from an economic standpoint. As consumers, our job isn't to ensure producers make the highest amount of money possible; instead, our job is to buy what we want at the best price possible. It's in the interest of the consumer to get great prices so that he can buy even more stuff. I don't buy games as a charity service for indie devs, as much as I respect them.

Few days ago one guy broke into my apartment with his laptop, put a gun to my head, opened a groupees page and yelled "buy this 1$ tier you piece of shit"

So i had to do it ;_;

He also said he'll come back next week just in time for new weekly bundle and if i tell anyone or call the police i'm dead (fortunately he doesn't know about SG so i'm safe)

it's not like they have limited amount of stock anyway, their "warehouses" have UNLIMITED amount of stock plus they paid only once (while producing the game) for unlimited amount of stock.

I mostly agree with your opinion. When it comes to "Amazing Games" that you would want to get regardless, then waiting for a super sale on those because you know it's likely, well... It doesn't seem like a way to support the "Amazing Game" you like so much. If your a gamer, and love games, you should want to support them from time to time. Especially the ones you love.

Extra Note: Not entirely sure why everyone is taking such an aggressive stance against your opinion. My interpretation of your opinion seems to be pretty clear. It's not about people on a budget, that would never be able to buy the game at full price anyway. Also, I don't believe that most people who claim that they "Can't afford games" are actually full of it. I think mostly that they don't prioritize games, so they just greedily get them as cheap as possible "Just because they can". Do you drink? Go to clubs? Guess what, that is ultra expensive. Not going out one single night can pay for a ton of games. Not saying everyone can do that, but in my experience most people that complain about not being able to afford games, have tons of disposable income. They just dispose it in other areas but think of it as "Well, I don't have any EXTRA money after my other priorities, so that means I have no money". If games are a low priority for you, then yes, you SHOULDN'T be able to get all the games you want.

There is one point you are missing - currency exchange rate. Some countries have it fair, others don't. For example, lazy $ to € conversion on steam looks like this $=€. So using 10$ game as an example 10$ = 10€ = 41.38 PLN. I could buy 2-4 decent games in retail for this price and it's not just in my country. Many people don't like buying games full price because they are unreasonably expensive compared to the costs of living (if I really like the game, like from playing beta, I might buy full price at release or buy collectors edition but for most I'd rather look for 100 for console games, 50 for good pc titles like Deus Ex or Dishonored, ~25 for indies; now convert it to $/€)

There's something even worse: software piracy. Every paying customer is better than no customer and the publisher decides how much discount he's willing to give. I pay as much as I think a game is worth. Whatever that means :)

Maybe you try to motivate people to reconsider how much they are willing to pay for a game, but the awfully whiny and accusing tone of your post does exactly the opposite.

A few things of note.

Firstly, we live in a predominantly capitalist society that heavily protects industry. If any dev, indie or otherwise, comes cap-in-hand to me begging, it's likely because they, or the industry they are in, have screwed things up. Not because I, as an individual consumer, waited for the best value.

When a business offers you a product or service at a fixed price it is a manner of static negotiation. You, as the consumer, are in no position to bargain, so you use the tools at your disposal to increase value for yourself. Likewise with the industry. Thus, industry will use bundles and price-cuts to encourage purchases, and savvy consumers will wait for such things to extract the best value for themselves.

That is called 'business' and if it ever gets to a stage where good devs can't make good games because consumers won't pay top dollar for them, then the industry practices that led to consumer expectations of low prices are what should be scrutinised, NOT the behaviours of the consumers who are doing what any right minded individual or organisation will try to do and seek to get maximum value out of their transactions.

Don't want to be insulted? Don't write bullshit like that in here. For me this is "blah. blah" of another one who don't know what to do with themself. Boooored!!!!

No ty. I'm getting more frugal with money.

Bundle or no buy. This is for indie. Even if they all die, I still have AAAs. (and I can get them for free, too)

And I have money, not that poor.

The Developers/Publishers have screwed up customers so many times with bullcrap reg lock, retarded DRMs and pricing. Pirating and buying games until they're bundled are my revenge.

I cannot see a valid point in your entire post

"Waiting for a sale" "Waiting for it to get bundled"

I hear this all the time, people even say this when they're talking about a game they actually want to play. It's especially annoying when they're talking about a small indie game with a price tag of $9.99. We're spoiled. !!!WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE HOW PEOPLE VALUE GAMES!!!

Getting a bargain? It's great! Intentionally looking for an amazing game to lose its value? Wrong on so many levels! !!!EVERYTHING LOSES VALUE AND IF THEY CANT WAIT AN SAVE THEIR OWN HARD EARNED MONEY THEN WHY NOT!!!

Don't they realize that this sort of thinking simply kills the video game industry? (especially the indies), "getting bundled" is already a huge devaluation to a game. !!!IF THEY MAKE A GOOD ENOUGH GAME, PEOPLE WILL PAY FULL PRICE!!!!

I think we shouldn't be cheap-ass for a game we like, in most countries people can easily afford to cough up the full price for a great game, instead of waiting to pay $1 for it with tens of other games they won't play anyway. !!!FIRST PART IS UTTER BULL SHIT, NOT EVERYONE HAS DISPOSABLE INCOME FOR GAMES, SECOND PART LIES WITH BUNDLE SITES

I think this is selfish thinking and we're just killing the industry, and harm the developers we like. I too bought many bundles to pick up some old title, or a semi-decent game but I also pay full price for the games I really like just to show my appreciation to the developers. !!!YOUR CHOICE AN SHOULD IMPOSE THIS ON OTHERS!!!

If we'd buy only the games we want, and for their real price we wouldn't have a giant pile of shame (I'm talking about the backlog) and the developers wouldn't have a problem putting out new games. Most indie games are reasonably priced anyway. !!!! AGAIN DEPENDS ON DISPOSABLE INCOME, NOT EVERYBODY HAS THIS.

Let's think a bit less about ourselves and think a bit about others, the developers.!!! IF I HAD 10 DOLLERS AND THERE IS AN INDIE GAME I WANT AND ITS 9.99 AND ITS BUNDLED WITH 5 OTHER GAMES FOR 1 DOLLER, IM SORRY BUT ONLY A MORON WPULD PAY 9 DOLLERS MORE FOR 5 LESS GAMES, YOUR ARGUEMENT IS FLAWED!!!!

Also don't tell me that (literally) everybody is too poor to buy a game at full price. This rant is not about people who don't have the money. !!!WHY SHOULKD PEOPLE SPEND MORE THAN NEEDED, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE?

I'm not rich.

That approximately sums up what I want to say.

It comes down to this. Gaming is not my life. I have friends, family, an SO, and an entire life outside of gaming. I don't make a ton of money and often my entertainment budget goes to going out and hanging out with people. $60 (before DLC) is a fairly significant asking price in an industry where the quality of games has been steadily falling. Even a $10 indie is becoming less worth that price as we see more devs who think they're good but just aren't. Accessibility is a double edged sword after all. I'm not downplaying indies (some of my favorite games are indies) but we're seeing that part of the market flooded with more and more shovelware.

I bought $50 Steam card. It took me 6 MONTHS (yes you read that right,6 months) to save up for it, and even than,I only had 21 dollar. Luckily my mom added $39 dollars needed. So now I have no new slippers, but I got Steam card. Because I made A CHOICE. And you're damn right Im going to wait for Steam Summer sale, because I will make every dollar count. I dont have entertainment budget, because 99% of my family's budget goes to pay for food and rent. And Im living in US. I have no gaming computer, just regular dell desktop I customized with better graphics card and processor I bought from friend. Back home if had computer Id probably be downloading games off torrents instead of Steam. And I dont see any problem with people complaining about high prices on games. Because they are, ESPECIALLY on PC. 39.99 FOR A BETA/PREORDER of DIGITAL game and 60 dollars for some AAA title? Where the hell did they get this price from? Do these money go to help people? NO. Do these money pay for packaging or manual you can hold? NO. Do these money go to make new game? doubt it. So why should I pay full price? But thats just my opinion.

I disagree on the part that it's selfish to not pay for games. People have thousands of perfectly valid reasons, not all of which are neccessarily "selfishness" ;)

Also, since you mentioned Indie games, let's face if - some of them are pretty overpriced. Not all of them, of course, but some of them definitelly.

And of course, then there's the whole thing about "people simply not having money to pay full price for games" which you decided to ignore for the sake of your rant. Please note that "not being able to afford to pay 10USD for a game" doesn't equal to "being honestly, truly poor". Many (young?) people these days thinks so, but owning a computer and internet connection is far from "being (somewhat) rich" in many countries ;)

At least buying bundles is > piracy :)

My philosophy in life is to pay as little as possible for everything I buy, I dont really give much of a shit about the lives of the people I buy things from.

"We're spoiled."

You said it best yourself. Why pay $20 if you can get it for $5 - or even $1?

just curious if it is in fact killing the gaming industry, then why is it better then its ever been?

Whenever I see someone who will rather wait a year for a good sale, or wait for a game to be bundled - rather than to just pirate it - I respect that person for being honorable. $9.99 might be little for you, but it's much for others. Maybe it's not impeding their budget for food, but if they only have $10 for gaming that month, why would they spend it all on a single game if they can get 3 bundles for the same amount of money, and the game they want will surely be discounted and/or bundled in a time.

When I was a kid I had around 30 games on my super Nintendo at the end of its life and that was more than most kids could afford. Today I have 350 games on Steam, never played half of them. There are just too many games on the market.

When it comes to thinking for myself or the devs first, sorry, but I have to think for myself. I'm a student and don't have a job, so I live on my parents' money. Naturally I try to save up as much as possible because I feel like I'm being a liability to them. In games this translates to a strict "at least 75% off sale or no deal" (a rule which I've been breaking more and more often :/ ). If I like a game so much that I wanna support the devs and the game itself, then I buy several copies when the price is acceptable to me and share them with others (usually on SG)- that way I raise awareness of the game and increase the chance that someone else would buy it too while also supporting the devs directly by buying several copies on what they have at this point decided was an acceptable price tag for their game.

When in a questionable number of years I have a job that hopefully pays well, I might change that (but I probably won't because I'm greedy like that). :)

From reading the responses here and from speaking with many Dev's I think there is one key component missing (Though many have touched on it) Wonderful responses guys.

First off most games that are featured in bundles great major exposure. In some cases there is the pre-steam bundle ie Neo_scavenger. These4 games are placed in a bundle before getting a release and generally get word of mouth. Later they get ok sales. I for one got Unepic this way. Yes it was in a bundle before and I could have waited but as a person with money and want to see good devs get money I bought a copy. . . and a few other ones to gift.

In the other cases they are games that have seen a release and are placed in a bundle. In many cases devs would rather have their games sold cheap then pirated. around two thirds of the devs I talk to say they'd rather see people never play their game then have them pirated this is a great way for them to get that met.

Bundles also are a way for people who don't have the money to play the games to get copies without having to pirate and fear some form of retribution. In many countries there are anti-piracy movements with mandatory fines (here in Canada there is a new movement for automatic fines from ISPs who are found Pirating movies and games. . . The bill handed out the the one holding name to the provider - please don't get into the dynamics here we've got lots of debate over the ethics of it here). All and all games in bundles are there to provide an access to a game cheaply for those who chose not to pay full price.

Game Publishers have done the studies and know that gamers will pay full price to show support and have faith in the community. Bundles are a wonderful way to meet the demands of people who don't have the luxury of paying full price for games.

To the OP I see what you are getting at but don't forget devs know about that thought process and it is much much better for them to place their games in bundles then the face value of person pays X for a game or person pays Y for a game. A good game will sell on steam.

Edit: people will still pay full price for a bad game on steam too.

"You don't need to agree with me, you're entitled to your opinion which I'm happy to hear but please don't insult me for my views."

let me fix that for you....

"You don't need to agree with me, you're entitled"

:D