no i'm not against the punishments cause it was a like stealing but 30 years ?!! imagine that
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The difference is that it isn't one crime vs one crime. It's one crime vs literally millions of crimes that happen on KAT.
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So committing millions of crimes is OK as long as it isn't rape, torture, or murder? nice logic.
Even with the maximum punishment, this guy is getting less than a day in jail per crime, possibly less than an hour or even minute per crime.
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So crimes are ok if you don't do them alone? If someone holds another person down while they get raped, should that person not get in trouble because "well, they didn't rape anyone and they didn't break the law alone"?
You really don't belong in this discussion, you clearly just don't know what you're talking about.
If you let people sell/trade/give illegal things from your property/house, that's a crime. Unless you want to imply that a store can legally be a front for sex slaves or drugs without breaking any laws, that is.
This guy basically did the same thing, allowing millions of people to break laws on his "property". He made tons of money off of ads and such, and now he's going to pay the price for the millions of times he broke the law.
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You cleary aren't thinking straingh see i can make useless point too
I think you don't see the whole painting where people who have money always have money, poor always poor, peoples comintting crimes still comit crimes.
Moreover proprety is not more valuable than human life, this can be hard to understand nowdays.
yes i speak gibberish, bye
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If you're admitting that people who commit crimes will always commit crimes, then this guy should spend the rest of his life locked away because you're flat out admitting he'll break the laws again and again.
If someone stole everything you had, you would be mad, even if you were still alive. Stealing "stuff" is illegal and immoral, even if you can point to "worse" crimes.
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I am just gonna assume you never pirated anything or ever went to such site to increase there traffic and help him generate ad money else you are also an accomplice so as I am.
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So if someone steals 1 million from a bank and it's 1 million 1 dollar bills, did he commit 1 crime or 1 million crimes?
That's one (large) crime, because it's one act, where one person is stealing from one entity (the bank), and that's assuming they don't get extra charges like breaking traffic laws when they leave or possessing an illegal firearm, because in real life stealing 1 million dollars will often get you charged with dozens of crimes. What we're talking about is if someone went to millions of different banks, stealing a decent amount from each one. The "Game of Thrones" bank is not the same as the "Fran Bow" bank, you're stealing from completely different people.
Stealing a copy of One Piece episode 1 and then a copy of Bad Rats, and then a copy of Breaking Bad episode 1, and then a copy of Hey Jude, and then a copy of an ebook, and then a copy of millions of other things, are all seperate crimes. At the absolute "best" you can argue that stealing all 800ish episodes of One Piece is one crime, but that's a single series and there are literally millions of "things" you could download from KAT, hence the millions of crimes.
Sure not every piece of media is owned by the same company, but it's probably a few dozen only in total.
That's hilarious. There are thousands upon thousands of companies that make things ranging from music, to videogames, to porn, to anime, to ebooks, to programs, to pdfs, to manga, to many other things. There aren't only a few dozen, especially since there isn't just one "videogame company". When someone torrents FEZ, that isn't the same as stealing from the guy who made Braid or the people who make Call of Duty.
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He created one site which was deemed illegal in some countries. Why is that million of crimes? Isn't that a single act too? How is that different from stealing the property of hundreds of people from a a Bank's safe?
By the way why is it theft? Will the owners lose their copy if somebody else copies it?
At best it should be comparable to accessory after the fact as he himself didn't "stole" the shared content, but strangely receivers aren't charged separately after every single stolen item found in the inventory.
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You're either purposefully avoiding the truth or you simply don't know what you're talking about. "creating one site" wasn't illegal, but illegally copying and sharing files IS a crime. He is the one who pays for people to host torrents where people "steal" things, and knowingly allowed these things to be "stolen". What he did is like hosting a drug-trading event, and personally was the middle man who took the drugs, handed it to the other guy who wanted it. He paid for the servers and hosted the website. That's all on him, he is guilty of many crimes, just like people who use the website to illegally upload/download files are guilty of crimes for every torrent with illegal content they use, as long as they live in countries with laws involving torrents/downloading.
Don't argue semantics. We both know exactly what I mean when I use words like "stole", "copy", or "theft". That doesn't make you "right" when you say "haha, he illegally COPIED AND DISTRIBUTED billions of dollars of data, he didn't technically STEAL them!"
The only way you can argue that files have no value is if you're claiming the entire internet, including steam and this website, have absolutely no value. People pay thousands of dollars through Steam, there is significant value in this "data" that is stolen. Billions of dollars of data were illegally moved on his servers through his website, and that is (and SHOULD BE) a crime. The games that I legally buy are worse because pirates exist, and some games are just completely crippled in some circumstances because of forced-DRM that only exists because pirates exist. The existence of pirates hurts every single honest person who pays for what they want, whether they know it or not.
How is that different from stealing the property of hundreds of people from a a Bank's safe?
I'll respond directly to this statement, because you're making a fundamental mistake that shows you don't get the situation. When you leave money in the bank, it is not your money anymore, you simply "own" an IOU entitling you to that money back. Whether the bank is robbed or burned down, you don't lose your money, the bank loses that much and you still have your IOU entitling you to your money back (assuming it's a legitimate bank backed by the government). That money belongs to the bank, until you come to ask for money back. Stealing from the bank does not steal from the people who have accounts there, it only steals from the bank that owns the money. If someone steals the purses of everyone in the bank, THAT is separate crimes, but the bank itself is one entity with one "amount of money".
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If you rob a store and steal 500 DVDs, they charge you with one crime, not 500.
If you break into a store and allow 500 people in, who each grab one DVD, that's one crime again, not 500.
In other words, he didn't commit "millions" of crimes, or even thousands, or even hundreds.
Saying any kind of property theft is worse than rape is just wrong as well. These are crimes against companies, not individuals, and most certainly not comparable to violent crimes against individuals in any aspect ...
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I think sending someone to jail for 30 years for copyright infringement is manifestly too much. Is it a crime? Yes. Is it a crime that requires locking someone away from society for 30 years? No. He's not a danger to anyone else, which should be a requirement for a punishment that extreme.
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So if someone stole everything you own, you don't think they should be punished more than a tiny slap on the wrist?
This isn't "copyright infringement". It's literally MILLIONS of counts of copyright infringement. Assuming he's done 1 million crimes exactly (he's done a LOT more than that) he would be in jail for about 15.8 minutes per crime. That's practially nothing, and he'll have a much smaller ratio because realistically he's helped people commit many more than a million crimes. A crime is a crime, and should be punished as such, and this guy has commited a LOT of crimes. He's a danger to anyone who wants to make money off of their hard work, and to anyone who wants to buy videogames or other digital content without getting stuck with terrible anti-piracy files and DRM attached to it.
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Stealing everything that an individual owns is different to having impacted your profits as a business. One is a direct and massive impact to an individuals quaity of life, more than likely depriving them of things with deep sentimental value or personal works that cannot be replaced. The other is less personal and less impactful by contrast. No, before you go there, it is not 'less of a crime' by the fact a crime is still a crime, but the scope is different. That is the point being underlined contrasting digital piracy to a rape.
It goes back around to the whole thing about penalties for physically stealing an album vs pirating it. By all means, punish the guy, but the punishment should always fit the crime.
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How doesn't the punishment fit the crime? This guy has committed millions of crimes willingly, he deserves a long sentence as deterrence so other people don't think "oh, millions of crimes are no big deal, artists don't deserve my money, I'll just steal for myself and never get in trouble because they'll never care if I steal a few hundred because other guys steal millions and just get a few decades in jail".
If he didn't want to spend decades in jail, he shouldn't have committed years of crimes costing other people millions and millions of dollars.
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Making an example of someone for deterrence requires all crimes to be punished with consistency and with due scale. Yet the strange thing is that people have defrauded banks or brutally beat someone to within an inch of their life but wormed their way to minimal sentencing due to factors such as popularity, richness and even position/gender. There are cases of sports celebrities randomly hospitalising folks and being given token fines under the rationale that 'prison would ruin their careers'. I shit you not. An elderly woman got slapped with a massively exaggerated sum because her ex-partner used their computer to pirate two mp3 albums. A statutory rapist got just a slap on the wrist while the victim was made to pay child support, because of their sexes. Someone who came forwards about lying about being molested wasn't punished at all, under the logic it might stop other liars from clearing their victims names.
These are not the actions of a rational, consistent law system. Deterrence for crimes without direct and immediate impact is minimal, all the 30 years in the institutional meatgrinder will do is claim a life, and perhaps make other hosts more protective of themselves. All the crippling lawsuits thusfar haven't stopped piracy, and if anything piracy has grown even under these deterrents. If beatings, murders, abusers and rapists can get significantly smaller penalties than those who commit digital piracy, the scale of punishment fitting the crime is beyond fucked. Yes, in this case they facilitated an enormous amount of piracy, and yes they should be punished, but the scale of punishment is unfitting. It's a result of offending people with too much money, and the system being far too inflexible and myopic.
And as for your last remark? It brings us back to the old debate : A pirated copy is certainly an illegal act, but it does not automatically equate to a lost sale. It's a complex equation, and I'm pretty tired of that side of the ancient debate, so I'll leave you to turn those cogs with someone else. (:P
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"How doesn't the punishment fit the crime?"
First of all, the entire premise of this thread is incorrect. The owner of KAT was not sentenced to 30 years in jail. But people have served time for similar crimes, so it's not unlikely that the owner of KAT might eventually end up in jail.
Why does the punishment not fit the crime? Let's look at what the crime actually is. From the TorrentFreak article:
"the alleged owner is charged with conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement, conspiracy to commit money laundering, and two counts of criminal copyright infringement."
What are the consequences of the crimes he's being charged with? In every one of them, the damage is material:
Criminal copyright infringement - he deprived the copyright holder of potential sales, and if KAT was monetized in any way, then he also profited from the illegal use of the copyright;
Conspiracy to commit money laundering - again, assuming KAT was monetized, this likely refers to him laundering the illegal profits described above.
If the punishment should fit the crime, then based on the crimes he's being charged with, the owner of KAT should, at very most, be responsible with paying the copyright holders the financial damages he owes them, along with the profits he's made from using their copyright. Throwing him in jail accomplishes neither of those. The copyright holders won't recover their damages, and society is not going to be any safer with him locked up, as he doesn't pose a physical threat.
As for the idea that an unfitting punishment is going to be a deterrent for others, see Uroboros's post for why that's not the case.
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Yeah, because killing or raping one person deserves less punishment than giving away a lot of data.
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Yeah, because doing one terrible thing a single time deserves more punishment than doing millions of bad things over and over for years.
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Really? Wow.
Over the course of one person's life, they could potentially jaywalk thousands upon thousands of times. Does this mean by sin of repetition, they should receive a punishment in multiples of that given to someone who performs an intentional hit-and-run? Perspective, dude. There are uncountable grains of sand in any one beach. That doesn't mean the shorefront weighs more than a moon.
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The difference is that stealing/copying/pirating/whatever-semantics-word-you-want-me-to-use a single time is something that can land you in jail easily, but jaywalking isn't. If you get CAUGHT jaywalking thousands of times then you will suffer whatever "fine" or other punishment you deserve thousands of times (or increasingly dramatic punishments, for deterrence). It just so happens that in this case the offender still has all of their crimes logged, so they will get punished for them all at once. If they actually had separate trials for each crime this guy committed, he would end up wasting millions of dollars in time and legal resources, and end up with thousands (if not millions) of years in jail from the individual crimes he's committed against so many thousands of groups and people. 30 years is tiny compared to the actual crimes he's committed. He could work 24/7 for a thousand years and still never pay people back for all of the money lost by the pirating he facilitated, 30 years is a joke in comparison.
There are uncountable grains of sand in any one beach. That doesn't mean the shorefront weighs more than a moon.
Yes, but if you commit a crime over and over again until you literally can't count the crimes anymore, you don't deserve mercy because you're a bad person. Life in jail might be excessive, but 30 years is nothing at all considering how many laws he's broken and how many people have been indirectly hurt by people like him that make it seem OK to pirate.
Say whatever you want, but the legal system is on the side I'm on. This guy deserves between 10 and 30 years easily, because he's scum and when he gets out he'll probably keep breaking laws again, if the punishment isn't enough to set him straight.
Like I keep saying and people don't seem to understand: If you don't want to spend time in jail, don't break the law. That applies whether you break the law once or millions of times.
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Um, hello? Piracy is theft of an IP in that you are acquiring a paid product without paying for it. Last I checked, that's theft. What do you honestly think people used KAT for?
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Theft means someone lost something. Are you really going to argue that the IP owner lost something when someone downloads their stuff for free? In case you do, you should know the various IP holder associations have tried REALLY hard to make that seem true... and failed miserably. What little is known about the actual effect of piracy is that it's most likely neutral to positive - in that the combination of purchases later down the line by pirates combined with increased word of mouth outweighs the meager losses from people who would have bought the thing if it couldn't be pirated, but never did otherwise.
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Theft means someone lost something
Actually, theft means "to steal".
The definition of stealing according to dictionary.com is:
"take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it"
So unless you have permission or legal right to have something, or you intend to return it (explain to me how you can return a digital copy to the person you pirated it from), then it's theft. It has nothing to do with whether the victim loses something.
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You defeated your own point with your own quote.
"take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it"
That digital copy you make is not the property of the IP holder, so you're not stealing anything. What you're doing is violating his right to be the exclusive maker of new copies. A right which is highly immoral unless very limited, regardless of it legality.
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So everything digital should be completely free? And all music artists, video game creators, actors, movie Producers, etcetera should just give away their work for free?
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Why the strawman?
"A right which is highly immoral unless very limited..."
The problem is what rights exactly IP holders have and how long they have them. If intellectual property became public property after some reasonably short period, perhaps 4 years, then I'd be okay with strong copyright.
But my preferred vision of the future involves pay-what-you-want schemes, with all content free but various incentives available for supporting the creators.
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There is a reason the term 'Piracy' is used. Digital theft is different to physical theft. The types and scales of damages are quite disconnected from one another, so need different rules and scales to be measured.
Sadly, sometimes downloading (or distributing) a single digital copy of an item results in a far more severe penalty than someone stealing a physical copy, which actually results in a measurable loss for the retailer, whereas it's debatable whether a pirated copy equates to a lost sale. That's before you even get into the overarching proportions of crimes, where some charges of actual physical violence, sometimes with lasting consequences, have been given smaller sentences than people convicted of downloading a music album.
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Sure, pirates who use the illegal copy as a demo and buy the game afterwards are understandable. But I highly doubt most people are and the publicity argument (which has worked for a handful of games) leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. At the end of the day, whether it's theft or not, the artists need to make money to survive. If their products don't sell - they won't keep making new content. Other people are effectively paying the artists so they can keep producing the content that pirates enjoy for free. If we were talking about water, that would be fine. But it's not.
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You're right, most people don't buy the game after pirating it. This is because most pirates are so poor that buying a game is unthinkable. Or at least it was, before 4-for-a-dollar game bundles became a thing.
Anyway, the topic at hand is the economic effect on IP holders. They obviously don't lose anything from the vast majority of pirates, who wouldn't have bought it anyway. So what's left is figuring out whether the impact of those who would have bought it if piracy wasn't an option outweighs the impact of those who bought it only because they could pirate it first, combined with the publicity effects of ALL those who pirated, even the overwhelming majority who would never have bough it in any situation. And to say publicity only worked for a handful of games is very wrong. Publicity doesn't mean massive hype. If someone pirates a game, can't afford to ever buy it, but enjoys it and raves about it on a forum somewhere, that's free publicity. Every time someone somewhere on the internet asks "Do you know of other games like X" or "Do you know any games that have X", the probability of getting your game recommended is directly proportional to how many people have played it. It seems invisible, but it's there and it matters. The more players a game already has, the more likely it is to draw new players.
Also, when considering people who pirate then buy, it's important to include the numerous children and teens who have no way to pay for games in the present, but will be able to buy their childhood favourites in the future. Just look at the success of GOG.
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My heart doesn't exactly go out to those people. Children, teens, people who cannot afford them. There's a massive amount of legally free games, books, tv shows etc anyone who has a computer and an Internet connection can gain access to these days. Enough to last even a picky person several lifetimes. There also are things that I want and cannot afford. And we have all been children. I couldn't afford buying games and books when I was a teen, so I played a F2P mmorpg and took advantage of the Gutenberg Project. I had fun, made friends, got a part-time job to have some spending money. That's life.
While it's 'free publicity', its effect is in most cases very difficult to quantify (the whole debacle about Let's Plays of That Dragon, Cancer is a clear example of this.) It also doesn't excuse anything. Sometimes people almost make it sound like they're doing the developers a favor. But there are plenty of ways (giveaways sites, youtube streamers, bloggers..) developers can distribute free keys if they feel the need for more publicity (yes, I do know of the couple of cases in which they encouraged piracy).
Well, money is finite. They could also be buying new games. Or buying old classics they never got to play. I don't find that argument very compelling.
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It never is a compelling argument. It's a nonsense argument. It tries to make the moral issue about the ability to pay. The issue isn't the ability to pay. The issue is the right to compensation. The creator/owner has a right to compensation that is not ameliorated by someone's relative poverty.
No one has a right to free leisure media, no matter how poor. It's a weak argument.
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As far as I'm aware piracy isn't theft anywhere. It would take quite some perversion of the law to make it theft. So it gets criminalized as copyright infringement, an accurate description.
But this doesn't stop big companies from trying really hard to associate piracy with theft. And then we remember that they're the ones who labeled copyright infringement "piracy" in the first place, a propaganda move that epically backfired.
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Well, they create websites with categories like "Movies" "Music" "0-DaY WaReZ, LuLz" and the like, take no action to remove illegally-shared materials and expect to hide behind statements like "We don't condone piracy, wink wink"
It's like leaving a gun on the sidewalk and saying I SURE HOPE NO ONE PICKS THIS UP AND SHOOTS SOMEONE WITH IT
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Yup, at the very least criminal negligence, by my understanding.
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My response was regarding the gun, not whether or not it complied to DMCAs.
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They very well may have but regardless, as doslover said, they made no real attempt to stop any sort of illegal action through their site.
Look at G2A and tiny Build Games. If G2A hadn't of reformed I'm sure it would be a different story right now.
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I'm not saying he didn't facilitate illegal activities. I'm saying the laws that make pirating illegal are bullshit. And it's certainly not theft. You basically sad he did something bad and deserves to be punished, whereas from my point of view he did something wonderful and is being punished for it by the corrupt lackeys of faceless corporation that are strongly opposed to the interests of both the artists they exploit and the customers they serve.
And your gun comparison there... just dreadful.
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"I'm not saying he didn't facilitate illegal activities" -- except where your exact words are to "explain how he facilitated theft." It seems your confusion is around the exact definition of the word theft.
"did something wonderful"
You've made it clear where your bias lies, I don't feel there's any point in discussing further.
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It's not my confusion, it's yours. I clearly said that what he's accused of IS illegal but IS NOT theft. Nothing was stolen. The crime in question is failing to respect the IP holders' exclusive right to make copies. A right which I very firmly believe should be very limited and which I currently see as abhorrently exploited. The law is supposed to be about justice, and I don't see any justice here, only corporate interests.
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To properly make fair judgment, one has to forfeit bias. If you are inherently biased, you therefore can not make fair judgment. If you are admitting to bias you give up any right to a reasonable discussion. I will not admit bias to this topic because I can certainly see where it can be helpful but neglecting that the distribution of a copyrighted piece of entertainment is essentially theft is to be obtuse.
If someone had the cure for cancer hidden away, then someone needs to take it and make available to the world because it would do good for others. If there is a new video game coming out, buy it. Cracking it and uploading it provides no real good to anyone and only harms those who worked so hard on the project.
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Oh, dear.
First, I'm not making judgements. I really wish I could, but I'm not in any position of power. I'm a passionate advocate for one of the sides.
Second, this line: "If you are admitting to bias you give up any right to a reasonable discussion." - is incredible bullshit. Everyone is biased on pretty much every topic and every reasonable discussion ever was held by biased people. The point of a reasonable discussion is to challenge people's biases and allow them to get a more accurate idea of what is being discussed. Nobody starts out perfectly informed and unbiased.
Third, you're clearly biased. More than me, even. To declare copyright infringement theft is quite a leap, and to call everyone who disagrees with you obtuse is... giving up your right to a reasonable discussion, I suppose.
Fourth, cracking and uploading games improves the lives of people who cannot afford to buy games. This here shows your wealth bias. You cannot comprehend that for the overwhelming majority of the people on the planet, "buy it" is not an option.
Fifth, you claim that piracy harms those who worked so hard on the project, yet you fail to provide any evidence. I've explained elsewhere in this thread why, in the absence of hard data, it's more logical to assume that piracy has a neutral to positive effect on content creators. If you can't be bothered to find my other comments, say so in your reply and I'll copy them in this comment chain for you.
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I wrote game reviews for a site for about 6 months, nothing spectacular. It earned me a little side money until my real life got busy. When I played a game, even if I hated playing it, I had to give my unbiased opinion. Sometimes, I had to admit that even though I very much disliked a game, it was good. Other times, I would have a blast, would have to admit its flaws and shortcomings. If you want to be honest with yourself and those you are talking to, you need to get past your own personal bias. You are right that nobody starts off perfectly informed, but you open your mind to the possibility that your idea is wrong, that is how you grow.
How does thinking that piracy is essentially theft a leap? How does that make me biased? I am not calling everyone that disagrees with my views obtuse, I am just saying that you are because you are failing to realize that what you do when you pirate software is steal. A pirate a person who robs and kills at sea. Rob... steal, plunder, loot. All forms of theft.
I don't have wealth bias. I haven't purchased a game in about 3 months because we don't have money. The reason I don't have money is my own fault though. I have a wedding coming up so we are setting aside a lot. I am 23, my fiance is 21. We both dropped out of college. Neither of us have what I would consider to be a good job. Yet we own a 70,000 house, we both own cars worth over 10,000. We are in the lower percentile in terms of income and yet we can afford all of this and more. Friends with more money are envious of what we have. It's because we're not blowing money on other things. When all of our money wasn't going towards a wedding, I was buying a game pretty much every other week, or at least once a month.
Bundles allow you to get a lot of games for very cheap. Steam and GMG and others have sales constantly. Saying games are too expensive is a bit greedy in my opinion. Sure, I think $60 for a newly released game is a bit high. But if the market feels that way as well, that price doesn't hold. Gaming has never been more inexpensive.
Edit: My point of these last two paragraphs is that not being able to afford something is a really bad excuse for just stealing it. If you don't have money for the latest game... oh well. Welcome to life. Just because you personally think that something is too expensive doesn't make it so. You have no real right to dictate what price is justifiable. If we did, you can bet I wouldn't be paying more than $100 for the GTX 1080. I don't have enough money to buy one right now but I deserve to have it so I should get it for free.
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He may have stolen, but he stole from the rich and that's not acceptable,right? .. Rich people are stealing from the poors evey single day and no one gives a fuck..2008 is such a good year to point that out.. This guy is a NOBODY.. Corporations are stealing 10 times that ammount in a month, maybe a week from you guys and they are also murderers.
The law is made to punish poor stealing from the rich, not vice-versa.
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like banks, then they get bailed out and go on 400k vacations to celebrate ^^
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you mean the same way companies sell DVDs to burn illegal music/videos on them?
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Absolutely not, DVDs are just a storage medium the same as hard drives, thumbdrives, SSDs, floppy discs, plus DVD-Video has a legitimate use-case for home movies and whatnot.
It would be closer if the DVDs came with already-stolen games/movies/etc on them, with DVDs/Torrents being the delivery method in both cases.
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so his site is not a storage medium for links to the torrents which may or may not be illegal??? there are many LEGAL torrents available, if you are not aware. to suggest that hosting a site for such a purpose is "illegal" is a bit naive. one could say steamgifts aids in the theft of "digital goods". how you wonder? user A makes a trade post, user B post on said trade post an offer to trade, user C (the douche thief) copies user As profile pic/etc and adds user B and suggest he go first since user A is so much higher ranked blah blah blah, boom, scammed. why? because steamgifts does not allow private messaging, its all in the open and fairly easy. do we blame steamgifts and take them to court? of course not
anyone think all those ipods/music players back in the day were filled with 1000s of legitimate copies of music? nah, youd think they would put a way for it to check if you have a purchased copy or not through drm or whatever, nahhhhhhh, "let the user assume responsibility"
dvds are just a storage medium.... lol..... yeah for my hundreds of movies burned on them (i am a pirate)
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I'm quite aware there are a number of legal torrents, that's why I used it as the example of being similar to DVDs. DVDs store/transfer data, torrents transfer data. The difference is, the site was a house for illegal torrents, just as a person on the street with a stand selling DVDs with illegally-copied movies on them is a house for stolen media.
You don't have to explain you're a pirate, if you're arguing for sharing property you have no rights to, it's fairly clear.
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but im proud of it, lol, its the sheep that shout THATS ILLEGAL!!!!! i dont understand. these guys (throw whatever mega billionaire business you want in there) make millions/billions and bitch about thousands, "omg that guy just downloaded a movie and we lost <$7", no, you lost shit, because if i couldnt download it i wouldnt go see it so that buck was never destined for your pocket.
then you have goodie two shoes that go "THATS ILLEGAL!", if you cant or wont pay for it you shouldnt see it!!! go get a job!!!!!
there are so many ridiculous laws and unfit punishments that i cant support the stupidity behind them, and honestly, im not going miss out on anything in my life for that guy ^ (not you)
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It doesn't matter how much money a copyright owner does or doesn't lose. That has no bearing on this important fact:
Someone creates something. You acquire it for free not because they want you to acquire it for free, but because you can. This is not a moral act.
Trying to make it about the law and about corporate greed doesn't change that no one has the right to access someone else's stuff freely just because they can.
And yes, I too pirate things. The difference is that I recognize the reason why I do it (I can) and don't engage in childish rationalizations about it (media should be free/they're greedy/it's not really a lost sale/it's not theft, technically/I like to 'demo' things before buying them/etc.)
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What's worse is that he tries to act if this is a righteous act he is performing. Like he is somehow showing the world that what he is doing is the way it should be done. Sheep, ha! The most pathetic argument in the world is the ones that act like they are high and mighty and call the ones who disagree sheep.
There has never been a point in human history that we didn't somehow pay for a good we wanted. Whether through trading, selling, or simply helping the other person work. However a pirate offers absolutely nothing in return.
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Yeah. I mean, if you want to pirate just say you like pirating. Get rid of the hilariously transparent rationalizations.
People pirate because of the absence of consequences. That's all. If there were no consequences for walking into Best Buy and snagging a nice huge 4K TV, half the people you know would have a 4K TV.
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You are right, however there are still consequences. That manufacturer of 4K TV's will not earn enough money to continue operating. The hard workers and those relying on that job will be will be unemployed, all the while the ones who stole the TV's only worry about themselves.
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I meant consequences for the individual.
People don't really care about consequences to the industry--so long as they get their free media, or in the example, their free TV--that's all they care about.
Luckily for pirates more than enough people pay for movies and music (and many of us pay for television shows regardless of whether we pirate) so we have a current situation that appears tenable. But we don't have to pretend it's some righteous fight about copyright law, or corporate greed. Copyright and patent law and pretty messed up, and corporate greed is disgusting, but these issues exist outside of digital goods, and sticking it to the man by downloading a movie isn't going to fix that.
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I feel like we are on the same page here lol.
I agree in that people don't care about the consequences of the industry, but that can be a problem. With piracy, the issue isn't as widespread and so you aren't noticing disastrous consequences.
You are absolutely right in saying how messed up the whole process is. Digital goods are the norm, but our laws don't feel as though they are made properly for it.
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I don't know what you're supposed to be rebutting.
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"People don't really care about consequences to the industry--so long as they get their free media, or in the example, their free TV--that's all they care about."
If that was true, nobody would fund projects that may or may not deliver something years down the line. People care about what they're passionate about. You're basically trying to claim that there's some small heroic group of people who pay for everything and a larger group of disgusting immoral freeloaders. That's a false dichotomy. Different people will pay for or refuse to pay for different things, for different reasons. You can't conflate the people who pirate because they really only care about getting their free media with the people who pirate because they can't afford it or with the people who pirate because they actually have principles. The latter are people who might pirate a game they love released by a big publisher, but if that same game was put on Kickstarter by them same devs, they'd fund it. Yet you claim this is impossible, we're just using morality and principles as rationalizations. Being so dismissive of us principled lot is very insulting.
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I made the point that piracy is as widespread as it is precisely because there is a lack of consequences. When I used stealing televisions as an example and Knapp16 responded that the industry itself may suffer, I responded that "[p]eople don't really care about consequences to the industry," yes. Did you not understand the nuance there? The people who are still torrenting games on PC even though games are dirt cheap do not care very much about devs getting their "fair share" and the people who loot electronics shops for free goods don't care if that store closes. It's not a statement about all people everywhere--it's a generalization that requires the ability to interpret the message and not be overly-literal. I suppose that's my fault for not being clear enough.
As for the other stuff you said, don't strawman. I never claimed or implied that there was a "small heroic group of people who pay for everything and a larger group of disgusting immoral freeloaders." Go back and read without your bias and tell me where you get "small heroic group" and "larger group of disgusting immoral freeloaders" from. Because I was pretty sure everyone out there understood that it is quite a large group of people who pay for media that allow the smaller group to acquire it freely--not the other way around. That makes no sense economically. This particular conflict is not my fault for not being clear enough. It's your fault for not assuming that I understand basic economics.
Your whole Kickstarter point misses the mark when I clarify things for you as I did in my first paragraph but let me address one thing:
There's no false dichotomy. I don't need to care why a person chooses not pay for the non-free media they acquire freely. Neither does a copyright owner. At issue in my rebuke of other posters here is an assertion--with only the rare exception--that the media creator/owner has the right to be compensated for their work. It is not the responsibility of any consumer to decide that the media is too expensive and thus it is moral to just access it for free. That's nonsense. An appropriate rebuke of a media creator/owner's pricing strategy is to just not buy it. That's all.
"You can't conflate the people who pirate because they really only care about getting their free media with the people who pirate because they can't afford it or with the people who pirate because they actually have principles. The latter are people who might pirate a game they love released by a big publisher, but if that same game was put on Kickstarter by them same devs, they'd fund it."
Can afford, can't afford, who cares? You can do without but you choose to acquire it freely. You know what choice we can all make? Not to acquire it freely. To do without. And what's this nonsense about someone pirating a game released by a big publisher, but if the same devs put it on Kickstarter they'd fund it? Am I to assume it's the absence of the big publisher and/or the utilization of Kickstarter (and its associated rewards/early access/whatever) that are the important differentiating characteristics? I don't care.
No one has to have Game X, or Movie X, or TV Show X, or Album X, or Software X, or Porn X.
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Before I went back to being a gamer a few years back, I spent much of the new century being a pirate. And I am still a pirate. But I'm immune to the nonsense pirate arguments and I really don't pirate games, and I look for free alternatives to software instead of pirating. I still pirate TV, movies, and music, because--absolutely--those industries do need to adapt to the modern digital world (stop charging so much in general, stop piggybacking television services into tiers, etc.), but I can't pretend like I'm some savior. I'm a dude who wants to be able to watch a movie without paying for it because I live in a world where I can. That's all.
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LOL "there are many legal torrents available"
Yeah, that's what us torrenters do--look for those legal torrents.
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Exactly. Mentioning legal torrents like that in a discussion about just an attempt to distract.
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But that has little relevance in a discussion about KAT and torrent tracker admins being sought by law enforcement. Unless you want to argue that someone who has exclusively provided access to or indexes for legal torrents has faced prosecution.
Torrenting is primarily for freely file-sharing non-free media. When you bring up legal torrents you are just attempting to obfuscate the issue.
Edit: To be more clear no one you are having a discussion here is unaware that legal torrents exist. Bringing up legal torrents doesn't educate, it merely obfuscates.
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Participating in conspiracies to steal and facilitate theft in the billions causing untold damage to every sector of society doesn't get you a sentence that high in any country so basic logic makes on wonder why the difference and I can't think of anything but pressure from money/power and corruption as reason.
Sure go to jail but a few years, maybe a decade at the most extreme, anything above is miscarriage of justice.
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And that is the appropriate debate. What is the appropriate sentence for a mass facilitator/violator of copyright infringement, not "is it really stealing?" or "herp derp corporate greed"?
I've been downloading copyrighted media freely for far too long to have my head that far up my ass but a lot of people are still parroting the same nonsense about how somehow they get to decide what is appropriate compensation--if any--rather than the copyright owner. That's silly.
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What an odd conclusion to draw. I'm actually not for censorship, nor stealing from poor people (or anyone for that matter) and I don't support unfinished/overly expensive products by simply not buying them...
I also think 21 years isn't enough for murdering 77 people but again, unsure why you're telling me about how Norway punishes its murderers.
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The entertainment industry need to understand who pirates are and why they torrent. They need to adapt to society instead of going head on. My second point was about the world we live in and what punishment should be given out by contrasting crimes.
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Alleged copyright infringement, not theft. Where I live you can't even get 30 years for murder unless it's premeditated. I'm starting to hope Trump wins the elections and the USA actually will go the isolation route.
Keep loving your DOS.
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I was ready to hate you, but you made me laugh. :D
Consider reconsidering your ideas of theft and justice, if you have some spare time. Keep loving DOS, though. ;)
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Sentence for running a torrent site: 30 years
Average sentence for manslaughter: 2 years 2 months.
That's crazy.
Kill someone because of your stupidity, incompetence, negligence and you're out of prison in a little over 2 years.
Run a website hosting links and you're spending anywhere from a third to a half of your life in prison.
Consider this, a wannabe terrorist received a 3 and half year prison sentence for writing a bomb making manual.
Information that could be used to kill many, many people.
This guy is getting a sentence nearly ten times that for having a website that allows people to post links.
Information that is used to 'steal' things.
The entertainment industry is wanting to have its cake and eat it I'm afraid.
They hypocritically want digital products to be protected in the same way physical products are, yet they are unwilling to offer the same protection for those digital products that they are forced to for physical products.
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My only point here is they facilitated illegal activities, they got punished for it.
Instead of being sad that this person got quite the sentence, maybe the sad thing is that other crimes don't come with longer sentences? Seems everyone thinks I feel that downloading music is worse than rape/murder/genocide.
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USA is fucking retarded... They are selling heroin from Afganistan ( why do you think they are there, to protect opium fields ), funding terrorists ( Syria, Yemen, Iraq etc etc ) and so many other shits and they are more concered about a fucking torrent website..
They should be more concered about violent crimes don't you think? Maybe the cartels and gangs?
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That's why i don't talk about these kind of things on gaming sites.. I got mad and i said it.. All i have to point out to you is, make your homework.. You are too naive, you seem to don't have any clue about what's happening in this world.. And to respond to you : Yes they do know who they're funding( terrorists) .. You can also listen to former US soldiers and their experiences in war zones.. I know, you don't see that on CNN, Fox News and so on.. I'd give you to see some videos of so called "moderate opossition" in Syria which USA is directly funding, but i'll get perma banned most likely..
Start reading.
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one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter or, we're against your group of crazies, but support our group of crazies I mean, seriously, haven't they learned?
So yeah, that's just a matter of linguistics.
But the heroin story of afganistan is just a conspiracy theory. There's a very clear reason as to why they got into afganistan, and it's not heroin. The reason they're still there is that they have no idea how to get out
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I know right? If you behead someone you're not a terrorist as long as you serve USA.. And Afganistan produces 90 % of WORLD heroin.. You just need to use the internet.. At least this is a good thing about the internet , you can not censor it.. This is my last reply, it's obvious who i'm talking with.. Start reading once again.
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There's a very clear reason as to why they got into afganistan, and it's not heroin. The reason they're still there is that they have no idea how to get out
XDD
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You've seen wars and dead people where? In games? You may have seen some things, but maybe on TV and they're showing what they want you to see.. Nothing too graphic.. And let me tell you that i understand what's happening in middle east. If you want to understand too, you have to do is research..
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I understand what's going on in the middle east: there are several groups of fucking crazy people going around killing everyone who doesn't agree with them (especially the other groups of fucking crazy people). then there are a whole bunch of not-so-crazy people who are fighting back against those groups of fucking crazy people.
On top of that, are a lot of foreign interests backing one group of crazies over the other group of crazies, in the hopes of furthering their own interests.
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You're right, but the main concern is.. Do people know what are these interests? Some people do, some people don't and some people really don't give a fuck as long as they have something to win or not.. Until we all will. nothing will change.
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They funded and trained what it would become Al Qaeda. Now they are doing the same for the "rebels" in Syria. They also had a hand in a lot of coups all around the world.
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Do not worry in France we sell weapons to everyone make war with the US, have some laws passing without vote requirement, officers without badges, and our biggest problem is attentat so the governement enter random house to check if you got something.
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Your point is insipid. I'll ignore that it is full of dubious allegations. But just because there are crimes of higher priority that doesn't mean you should ignore crimes of lower priority.
By your logic every police department with unsolved murders and unsolved rapes should stop investigating burglaries, assaults, and embezzlement because they should be dealing with the real crimes!
By your logic no researchers should be out there trying to cure eczema, vision or hearing impairments, or develop new tools to help amputees with mobility because CURE CANCER!!
That's silly. Don't be silly.
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+1 Thank you for pointing that out. Assuming he has been charged, it is a common prosecution tactic t charge with everything they can at the beginning and then dropping charges later either when evidence is gathered or during a plea bargain. This gentleman has the funds to hire some good attorneys and put on a good defense.
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there's another reason for levying as many charges as you can.
I'll use murder as an example.
Murder in the 1st degree and Murder in the 2nd degree are a matter of intent. 1st degree has a higher punishment, but a higher burden of proof. So, you charge the person with both. If you're able to prove 1st degree, that's the conviction, but if the court determines that it's not quite 1st degree, then there will be a conviction on the 2nd degree charge.
If the prosecution only went for 1st degree, failure to convince the court would mean an acquittal.
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I don't agree with illegal torrenting, but 30 years for facilitating downloads of 'Now You See Me 2' seems a bit harsh...
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Although it appears he hasn't even been extradited yet, so maybe the title is a tiny bit misleading?
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Let me tell you a story about something that happened in my country ( a slave one ).. This is not a singular incident, it's just an example.. An american killed someone really known here and did not serve any time in jail for murder after he got back in USA.. That's really fair..
You can also check about US soldiers raping girls in Japan.. No time in jail also.
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You can also check about US soldiers raping girls in Japan.. No time in jail also.
If you mean the Okinawa rape incident, the soldiers spent 7 and 6,5 years in prison respectively, in Japan. The other one I can't even begin to make an educated guess on what you're referring to, as it's too vague.
And I can't find any good sources for your claim about USA and the heroin trade i Afghanistan. I can find sources talking about how the Taliban are basically back to where they were before the war, and using heroin to fund their rise. I can find blogs supporting you, but using those as a source, well I might as well trust Fox News to give me an unbiased opinion on violence in video games next....
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It's to make other people look at say "well, I won't do that now". If they said "eh, no big deal, 1 year in prison", then tons of people would start up new websites to torrent, knowing that the punishment is so light in the "worse case scenario" of getting caught.
Even though torrents don't make companies lose the "full" amount of money since not every torrent-user would pay for the digital content they download if torrents weren't an option, KAT must have lost companies millions and millions of dollars that actually WOULD have been spent. 30 years for many years of "theft" that resulted in millions of dollars "stolen" isn't that heavy at all, when you consider everything.
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There is plenty to discuss and debate there. But I know from experience that prison is really, really shit. And that many people there are serving less than 30 years for murder, rape, etc - piracy is bad but is it worse than the loss and violation of human life? And that people responsible for embezzlement, fraud, negligence and irresponsibility leading to the collapse of major banks, etc causing the loss of life savings and so on to many people exponentially worse than the damage from some torrenting site then get away with suspended sentences and ankle tags and the like or do a light sentence and then sell the movie rights or get paid to appear on talk shows and in magazines?
Just personally - I'm still calling out some bullshit here...
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You're right.. Wall Street bankers resposible for 2008 financial crash became richer, poor poorer and the criminal banks got bailouts worth of trillions.. And btw USA is serving big corporation, bankers and those big families like Rotchield, Rockelfeller.. They may have lost some money due to this guy and got a little mad and FBI started to bark.
Although i have to say that 2008 was orchestrated, is not due to some retards playing with the stock market.. Smaller banks, also knows as the competitors went bankrupt thanks to these criminals.. But in the end no bank cares about people
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It's just a matter of what kind of financial crime is acceptable to the people in charge and what needs to be stamped down harder than taking lives. Pirates just need to get better lobbyists and start buying their own politicians.
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Actually it is even disregarding the fact that the claim of being millions is dubious. Outright stealing millions of dollars for yourself with assault, violence and a bunch of other crimes included won't necessarily get you a sentence that high.
A quick search shows one who stole £28 million and got eight years, another who stole $1.5 million got two years, a group that stole £1.2 got sentences ranging from 8 years to six months(which was already covered by the time taken for the trial). Hell even first degree murder which is far worse than any millions stolen won't necessarily get a sentence that high.
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Probably should have been £1.2 million. Although if we are getting into comparisons (financial or otherwise) I'd like to mention that a bloke who used to live opposite me who tortured another man in the middle of the street and ripped his nipples out with pliers got less of a sentence than somebody who tried to rob a local post office with a 'shotgun' that was actually a steering wheel lock and got away with nothing and hurt nobody. Even potentially messing with money can be far worse than maiming people for life...
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Yeah, I'm reading more into this now than the original opening post suggested - which is reflected in my comments elsewhere.
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Yeah, how dare people that make content think they are entitled to get paid for it, and how dare people who break many laws over many years get punished for it through the legal system.
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It's more complicated, there is certain madness in modern legal system based on monetary value. Is it normal, that murder becomes less critized in society than inproper use of information(copying of reserved copies)? Just capitalistic influence over the system of moral.
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hmm, since when are they back online - thought their site was shut down since months?
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I used to use that exclusively than when it went down I went to KAT and I loved how much more active and how the layout of it was compared to TPB so when this came back up I just stuck with KAT. . . now it seems I'm going back to TPB and hope it gets more active now with KAT down.
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Wouldn't your legal alternative be waiting? It's on pay tv here first as well, but on free tv a few months later, and at least the last time they made an event out of it and showed the whole season over a weekend, better than waiting a week after each ep
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i know but if they really put him away for 30 years that a little too much do you think
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It's really not.. it's fair. I mean as someone else has already mentioned, it's not just one crime.
He provided millions of people a platform to freely distribute and exchange intellectual properties and unauthorized files.. for years. He's practically stole billions and billions dollars of revenue. So to me 30 years sounds about just right.
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Doesn't make what he's doing any less wrong, but I'm just gonna back myself out from this conversation now.
I voiced my opinion, but I have no intentions to debate, especially not on my factory day. I have better things to do.
Thanks for the input y'all.
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that guy is a hero for guys like me , i live in algeria and here it soo hard to buy stuff from the internet so buying movies , video games and softwares isnt that easy so the only solution to torrents them
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What is he even being arrested for? KAT technically falls within the safe harbor policy as they do comply to DMCA takedowns, and i can't find any reason for them to get the DHS involved in this.
You need to have a damn good reason to get the DHS involved in anything.
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Seems like the only reason he was targeted is because KAT had a server inside the U.S. Same reason the U.S. tried (trying?) to prosecute the guy who ran megaupload.
ProTip: don't operate servers in the U.S.
I'm sure the govt. and their financial backers (Hollywood) want as harsh and ridiculous a sentence as possible in order to send a stern message to future torrent site operators. It won't work of course.
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Well, it's like that. People can murder, rape, steal thousands, but not even get to jail. But if someone's a pirate, he gets to jail for good. Meeehh, didn't expect anything better from our world.
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True that. I'm talking about bankers, drug dealers, businessmen, politicians, religious leaders, etc. that have commited so many crimes, stole so much money, but they are still outside and keep doing what they're doing. The owner of Kickass only had a site where people could upload torrents. He wasn't even the one that was uploading torrents. But, of course, justice cares more about this than the real crimes.
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Basically ridiculous but expected. Punishment is not defined by how bad something is but how much power the people pushing for it have, just look at any of the corrupt members of the government or of big companies that do damage measured in billions and more yet go on without any problem.
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That's sad. kat.cr was my favourite torrent site.
Oh well, life sucks sometimes.
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At least torrentz is not comparable (dont know the rest), thats just a search engine for torrents.
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A sentence has already been handed out? Didn't the website only go down a few days ago?
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That sucks i can see how they facilitate theft but they do not host any of the files themselves or even share any files on there own its the whole point of torrents instead of P2P,the penalty seems a bit stiff to me..goes to show you who runs these country's..corporations.
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More jail time for running a torrent site then murder? 'Merica! -_-
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You misread the news. It's not "30 years in jail", but 30 years old owner:
The U.S. Government has arrested the alleged owner of KickassTorrents, the world's largest torrent site. The 30-year-old Ukrainian was arrested in Poland today and is charged with criminal copyright infringement and money laundering. In addition, a federal court in Chicago has ordered the seizure of several KAT domain names.
https://torrentfreak.com/feds-seize-kickasstorrents-domains-charge-owner-160720/
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I got sucked into the larger discussion about piracy but yeah when I first came to this thread I was thinking, "he just got arrested--he hasn't even been extradited yet, let alone charged."
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Also keep in mind that that even when he does get charged and you hear reports that he could serve 30 years or whatever, keep in mind that that's an exaggeration/scare tactic and not reflective of the actual likely sentence.
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Sounds about right, you can run a site that doesn't host any files, comply with DMCA requests, and still the copyright lobby and their stooges in the govt will still find a way to get at you. Or you can be a politician, mishandle classified material of national security, lie about it repeatedly, and get off scot-free. Justice FTW!
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they shut down the website and the guy will spend 30 years in jail for it , thats sad :(
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