Am I avoiding your blacklist this time around?
Eh, close enough. ;P
Anything Monty Python is pretty great, though I haven't seen any of the movies besides Holy Grail.
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I do think some of those comments on that video are hilarious: "I am an exmormon, now Christian" is the funniest to me, personally. That person was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but didn't believe in Christ until after he left?
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What's funny about that? Do you think that the "Christ" of Mormonism and the Christ of the Bible are the same?
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Well, they are... We believe that Jesus Christ is our savior, and fully believe in the bible, and we like to be called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints now, because we want to properly acknowledge him as the head of our church rather than Mormon, the prophet from the Americas who abridged the now Book of Mormon (Another Testament of Jesus Christ) in ancient times.
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Who do you say Jesus is? And who is God? Please, be detailed.
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You CAN google those info though.. Especially for religions it has countless explanations and details on the intenet and encyclopedias. It's not something up for interpretation what each religion believes in.. A heresy or a sect is another subject buuut this is not the case.
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I already know what the mormon church teaches, but I can't google what an individual believes. Note my phrasing "Who do you say Jesus is?"
Just because someone goes to a particular church or identifies as a particular religion doesn't mean they believe exactly the same things as every other member of that group.
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In this case you don't say you are a part of them.. This was not a question that is open to interpretation like everyday situations or things not 100%. This is the CORE of what he/she believes. If it's not the main teachings then it's another religion or a personal belief..
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I agree that people shouldn't claim to be part of the same faith group if they disagree on a topic as core as "Who is God?" However, it does happen. Sometimes these people have nefarious intent, and sometimes they are just mistaken about what the facts are, and sometimes they don't realize not everyone thinks like they do.
I agree that if the main teachings differ, then it is a different religion. That is my point. The core teachings of mormonism are different enough from Christianity that they differ on "Who is God?" OP seems confused about this fact, so I want to know what OP believes.
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I say Jesus is our Christ, our Savior who suffered for our sins so that we may repent and be saved, and our older brother, firstborn son of our Father in Heaven, the God who created all we know, and who provides us with our lives. I don't really have any differing beliefs than what we our taught in our church, although I do have a deep love for my lord and savior, Jesus Christ, and my Heavenly Father, which is what I thought the keystone of Christianity is/was all about. I could be wrong, but I think what you're thinking in your other comments is more along the lines of "What is God?" being about how we believe the Godhead to be three distinct beings instead of the Trinity?
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but maybe I misunderstood what the fundamentals of "Christianity" teach, I thought they focused on the fact that Jesus Christ is our Redeemer and Exemplar. I apologize if I misunderstood.
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While it is true that loving God is a core part of Christianity, if you believe Jesus is something He's not, do you really even know Him? And if you do not know Him, how can you love Him?
"[Jesus is] our older brother, firstborn son of our Father in Heaven" What do you mean by this?
"we believe the Godhead to be three distinct beings instead of the Trinity" How do you understand these two ideas?
You are right that Christianity teaches that Christ is our redeemer, and an example to model our lives after. Though, I would ask, what do those words mean to you?
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I mean that we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe all of mankind are sons and/or daughters of God (our Heavenly Father) and that Jesus was his first spiritual child and only begotten on Earth, while everyone else was created spiritually by God as well, but we came ultimately through Adam and Eve after they fell and became mortal.
I'm not sure what "two ideas" you mean, but I believe that the three beings that other Christian Denominations typically view as the Trinity (like you say, probably not all, but I think most do) to be three distinct beings, sharing the same purpose and goals, God and Jesus have physical bodies, and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is more or less our sense of morality, dwelling within all of us and trying to help us make good decisions.
And as for what those words mean to me, I would say that I believe that I need to do my best to feel and to share His love with everyone, and to obey His commandments and do the best that I can to live like He wants me to, and when I mess up, as we all do, I can ask Him for His help and guidance, and start trying once again to be like Him.
I also know that He suffered not only for our sins so that we can be forgiven, but also all our pains and sorrows, so He can help comfort us if we ask, I know, however, that I'm not very good at that.
I'm sorry if I'm not making very much sense, or clarifying my beliefs much, but I haven't actually done this very often. I didn't leave on a mission after High School because of mental issues and I suppose a lack of faith, but I am trying to start being better at sharing what I believe, including His love and sacrifice, and hoping that I myself can grow from it as well.
Again, I don't want to argue or be negative or anything, contention is the opposite of what I want, but I do want to make it clear that I believe in and love Jesus Christ, and I know He loves everyone as well, and wants everyone to have the freedom to choose what they want to believe and search for truth in their own ways, if that makes sense to you.
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I think you're actually doing a pretty good job of explaining what you believe. It can be very difficult if you've never done it before. Not everyone stops and thinks about exactly what they believe or why they believe it. I'm being particularly thorough in my questioning because mormon teachings use a lot of the same terminology in an attempt to sound Christian, but they actually mean different things. I'm just trying to get a clear picture of who you think Jesus is, while avoiding "labeling" you with anything you don't believe.
The "two ideas" I referred to were your description of the godhead as three distinct beings (i.e. three gods) and the idea of the Trinity, which is very different: They are all one God. The Father does not have a physical body, and Jesus was not created by Him. Jesus has always existed as God. Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Trinity share more than just the same purpose and goals, They share the same will. They act as one, because They are one. The Holy Spirit is more than just our conscience, He is God living in the heart of every believer.
I don't want to argue either, I just want to help you understand the truth. Speaking of truth, you said that "[Jesus] wants everyone to have the freedom to choose what they want to believe and search for truth in their own ways", but this contradicts His own words: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." --John 14:6
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Happy early birthday! Thanks for the giveaways.
I'm not a religious person, I hold no higher or lesser opinion of LDS compared to any other religions, but I do appreciate the extensive work the LDS do on genealogy. I have built quite a family tree of my own and found (for example) that I am a "6th Cousin 5 times removed" with Joseph Smith (we share a common set of grandparents like... 12 generations ago). Of course, I have literally thousands of grandparents in that generation so it's rather insignificant but still interesting nonetheless.
Being from Missouri I have read a bit of the history of the awful treatment of the Mormons here. From 1838 to 1976 it was technically "legal" to kill someone in Missouri just because they were Mormon, though that was surely unconstitutional, and as far as I know there is no legal records showing anyone was killed officially using that law as justification, but as a disgusting threat it surely accomplished its goal in encouraging harassment by anti-Mormons and forcing the Mormons to flee the state. In 1976 the governor issued an official apology but... kinda too little too late by that point.
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Yeah, the early church had a lot of hard times, extermination orders, a lot of stuff that wasn't legal, but government officials weren't too keen on helping. But somehow it made it through, which I think is pretty crazy by itself, but it's still pretty sad.
And I still wouldn't call it "insignificant" even if there's a lot of relatives at that point, haha. I mean, sure it's cooler when it's a closer relation, but I think it's still cool either way. ;)
And thanks for the birthday wishes! :D
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Happy early birthday! Also, really enjoyed the descriptions of the games. Gave me a good laugh.
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I have several mormon friends who have shared bits of the religion with me. We even joined them to watch one of the annual meetings a few years ago. There are a lot of things about the mormon religion my friends haven't been able to explain to me. As I read the Bible, I see things that I can't reconcile with the mormon teachings they've shared. Maybe you have looked into these? Some examples: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 which indicates scripture ~2000 years ago was sufficient for salvation and Galatians 1:8-9 cursing those who make additions, the practice of baptisms for the dead in light of Luke 16:19-31 indicating the unrighteous lose the ability to escape the outer darkness after death, John 10:30 claiming Jesus and the Father are one rather than separate gods, and the belief that just about everyone goes to a different level of heaven based on their works when the new testament repeatedly says it is faith alone in Jesus that keeps people from the outer darkness as in John 1:12, John 3:15, Romans 10:11-13, Ephesians 2:8-9. Anyway, those are some of the conversations we've had that haven't really been resolved. I worry that my friends are blind to an eternal danger. I love them and don't want any to perish. One great freedom in Christ is not that we do not have to be perfect in our own power to be worthy to enter heaven, it is all on the merits of Jesus's own righteousness!
Thanks for your train, and happy birthday to you!
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Well local missionaries would probably have better insight into these questions than me, but either way, I also believe that sometimes we need faith more than all the answers, as I think that some of the answers may not ever come in this life.
But from what I see, 2 Timothy sounds like the Bible can help you communicate with the Holy Ghost, maybe the wisdom we get from it is not all in the direct words, but the feelings and promptings we can get while reading it and learning to recognize those feelings in other parts of our lives, too.
As for Galatians, it doesn't sound to me that it's cursing additions, but cursing false doctrine, I don't think Paul is saying that God refuses to teach humanity anything besides what he had taught prior to that point, but that you have to compare what you hear to the gospel you already know to be true. For the most part, we follow the gospel that Jesus preached while he was on the Earth, though it can be a bit confusing since some translations of the Bible have been changed by various religious leaders in the past to suit their goals more (I mean, how many different versions of the Bible are there?) but the teachings in the additional scriptures are meant to be in line with and provide more clarity to what is taught in the Bible, not to contradict it.
I can't say that I have any particular answers from Luke, but my best guess is this: we believe there is a time before final judgement where people who haven't heard the gospel can still learn, but they are unable to receive the ordinances needed since they are without their bodies, which is where things like Baptisms for the dead come in. If they are willing to listen and accept the gospel, and those still alive preform their saving ordinances, they still must choose to accept them. It seems strange to me that anyone in that situation would ever reject them, but if I believe what I've learned, than there those who are too stubborn and will still refuse to change (which is what I think may be meant when it's said that the rich man's brothers wouldn't hear even if someone raised from the dead went to them). Again, I'm not sure I understand this parable, but I have faith that in time we'll understand better, and that there is still a chance for those that never had a chance in this life to hear the gospel.
John 10:30 is one of the scriptures that is somewhat confusing, haha, but the way we understand it, is that He means that He and the Father are one [in purpose]. When Jesus is baptized, for example, doesn't God speak and send the spirit down in the form of a dove? If they were all the same person/being, I don't quite get how that would have worked.
Lastly, we do believe there are "levels" of Heaven, and also that faith is more than enough to keep people from outer darkness. In fact, we (at least mostly) believe that it's nearly impossible to be sent to outer darkness. We believe that in order to be sent to outer darkness, you would need to have a nearly perfect knowledge of the gospel and deny and reject Christ. We also believe, though, that "faith without works is dead" so if we say we have faith, but are unwilling to perform the actions and ordinances He asks of us, we can't receive all of the blessings He wants to give to us, and we'd be guilty and uncomfortable in His presence. The "levels" of Heaven are all about where we'd be most comfortable in the end.
Anyways, this seems like a lot, but I'm sure it's not really enough to fully answer all your questions, but maybe it'll help a little bit. And yes, I fully agree (and am extremely thankful) that none of us have to be perfect to enter Heaven, because we're all far from it, I always think me especially, haha.
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Thank you for taking the time to respond. I can tell you put a lot of time into it and I appreciate it. Thanks for being patient with me too. As I read your response, it seems some of these points ignore specific aspects Jesus himself taught in favor of other Mormon teachings. I do understand Mormons believe it is nearly impossible to enter “outer darkness,” but Jesus warns otherwise. Consider Jesus’s teaching in Matthew 7: the path to life is narrow, many follow the wide path to destruction, not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven. I know I won’t convince you of anything in a mere forum post. Even sincere face-to-face conversation with friends can’t do that. But with a sincere love (and welcoming of blacklists, haha) I must try to point people to God. Christians believe when Jesus says no one can come to God who is not drawn by God, and so we pray for that. But maybe our conversation will encourage both of us to examine what the Bible actually says about God, since it is his word after all. Pray to God the Father to reveal himself as he really is and see what the answer is. If it’s Mormonism, you have nothing to lose, but if it’s not, you have everything to gain. That prayer prayed sincerely is always answered. I love you, may God shine his face upon you.
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Again, I can't say I know what is meant, but I believe that by life he just refers to the eternal life alongside Him with all the blessings He and God want us to have, with the opportunity for endless growth. By some definitions, even the lower "levels" of heaven could be considered "hell" of sorts, being outside of the immediate presence of God and unable to obtain all the blessings we could have, but still being allowed a place where we can be comfortable and happier than we can imagine, but if we are able to follow the narrow path to eternal life with Him there'll be blessings and joy beyond compare. There really is so much nobody knows, though, and most of it we won't find out until it's time.
And I can't say I've had too many experiences with other churches, but I have gone to a few activities and a Bible camp with one of my best friends when we were younger and if I remember correctly, I didn't really think anything was "wrong" there, but I just felt like there was something missing, and didn't get the same feelings that I do from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But I wish you the best as well, and don't know if you entered any giveaways, but if you did, good luck in them! :)
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I gave up religion a long time ago due to reasons I'm just not gonna bother getting into. At best, I can be described as an Agnostic, I'm open to the possibility of a god as it's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of one, but... Beyond that I couldn't care less about whether or not one exists.
That said, Happy Early Birthday, hope the day goes well.
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Yeah, for me personally, I fully believe he exists, but I still sometimes suffer with a kind of "So what?" attitude. Which then makes me feel guilty, yada yada depression, etc. But for the most part I try my best to be a good person. :P
And thanks for the birthday wishes. :3
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So a while ago I shared a message from a leader of my church, and I talked about being Mormon. Not too long after that, the new president of our church began encouraging us all to use the full name of the church when we talk about it, so I'm doing so now. I'm sharing a couple of talks this time around, one talking more about using the full name and one more general.
Also my birthday is in a couple of weeks so I finally made a real train! It's mostly stuff that I've gotten from having a chance to subscribe to Humble Choice for the past year, but also a few others. There might be more added later, so stay tuned, I guess?
Also last time I made it onto like 20+ blacklists, maybe partially because I mentioned I might have a giveaway behind a "quiz", but I decided this is easier. You can watch either, both, or neither talk and join the train if you want. But I'm not going to and don't want any arguing, fighting, insults or anything negative, preferably, so if that's all you have to say, please just enter the giveaways without comments, I guess?
Anyways, the train starts HERE, good luck, have fun!
EDIT: Just occurred to me that you probably can't even see region-restricted giveaway pages, so for those that can't enter via the front cart, hop on HERE.UPDATE: A few more GAs added! Starting from HERE.
Talk #1:
Dieter F. Uchtdorf
Talk #2 (about the name):
Neil L. Anderson
And since there were plenty of other good talks, I'll just leave this link as well: October 2021 Conference Playlist
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