How much has the SteamGifts community matured?

Christ... ;~;

For that reason it is better to be safe than sorry.

because he posted it on a (sub)forum dedicated to helping people with suicidal thoughts? and how was anyone there supposed to know he was a teenager?

same

the world is not a fair place, nor will it ever be, oh well...

I am sure everyone who made sure to brush him off or give him a sarcastic line was thinking like you. It doesn't matter if you or I think that the internet is not for it, he thought it was because he had a connection for some reason. Logic does not apply the same when you are in that kind of condition.

There is one called Samaritans I tried them once.. twice actually.
It's good for the ones who may feel better (mostly temporarily) by just writing.. and maybe the things they say might help them too!
(Although it irked me but I know someone who finds such things (the way they talk) helpful.. such things usually have the reverse effect on me (motivational things) )

It's hard to tell when one, especially teenager, is being serious, and when he's just angry at whole world because reasons. I always change my mind when I see some crucial words such as "suicide", "kill myself", "kill" in general etc. People usually understand those words quite well, and you're unlikely to raise argument such as "I'll kill myself" when angry. I remember myself as a teenager and I often used phrases such as "I hate you" or "I'll run away from home and you'll never find me", but I never actually considered saying something about suicide, even when I was really angry/disappointed. Maybe some people just can't understand how important the life is, even in such case, I'm not a psychologist to know how to deal with such people. What one can do, is taking case more serious, but I'd definitely not blame myself for suicide of that guy, even if I posted in that thread, because it was his decision and I'm more than sure that he understood what he's doing, at least I hope so, because silly death is the worst one.

What could be harder? for a parent, losing a child. For someone else, a loved one. For others still, failing to protect their family or country, regardless that it will surely cost their lives. Plenty of people have willingly given their own life to try and save a stranger, without so much of a thought or a moment of hesitation.

Humans, despite having an instinctual basis, are not machines that can only follow a program, a person can willingly sacrifice their own life when faced with the prospect of a loss that is perceived as greater.

Plenty of examples of the self-preservation instinct being cast aside, nothing of that has much to do with courage IMO ( I find it to be kind of a hollow word TBH), and for the depressed person, it has everything to do with pain.

The tone and wording of my post was meant to point out how much of an overriding force major depression may be, also that people experiencing it, to the point they're seriously considering ending their life, with which I mean, committing to the act fully, not just as a means to call for help, do really find themselves in such a dark place that the hopelessness, pain and exhaustion they experiment appear to them as an unsurmountable problem, the pain and suffering and struggle are just so intense - in most instances, however, to commit suicide require a certain degree of inner peace and cool mindedness, which the depressed person, who is able to successfully commit suicide, often finds in the moment the decision is made.

Also let's not talk about things like "nature" or "the natural order of things" because that is a cultural construct that inevitably leads to some really atrocious places.

Yeah my point was just it's bad to jump the gun and think a person could be "faking it" and is just an attention seeker. If you go into a situation like this with that attitude it can have dire consequences. Better to run with it until you know for certain I feel. If you treat an actual suicidal person with contempt and undermine them because you think they are just looking for attention, it's only going to do harm. Not worth it in my eyes. Obviously you have personal experience of someone using this to get attention (which is incredibly immature and damaging to people who really have these problems). I was just saying I hope that one case doesn't effect your opinion of the matter in general. In my eyes, it's better to be made a fool and believe someone's insincere cries for help than ignore everything and potentially miss a legitimate plea for help.

Yeah I totally agree with you on the train situation. It's something I don't understand (like you say, it effects so many others lives) and I can't imagine it is the nicest way to go. Especially in the modern day where, if you are so inclined, you could get a bottle of gas off the internet for not much money at all which will send you to sleep, then unconscious, and then kill you peacefully with absolutely no pain. I was more meaning the act of suicide isn't selfish (I feel) not necessarily the way in which it's carried out.

I don't think you insulted anyone, it's just such a delicate subject.

Why does your concern for the welfare of others only extend as far as your proximity to them?

I don't know why this friend of yours apparently continues to behave that way. It could be that there are underlying problems that are preventing her from abandoning those coping mechanisms, such as a fear that people will stop providing her with the support she's receiving if she changes her behavior; or perhaps she has developed an interest in those behaviors outside of their capacity of being coping mechanism, such as believing that continuing those manipulative behaviors personally benefit her (which may be caused by another condition or mental disorder). It's also entirely possible that the problem lies in your perception of her. For example, if could be that you are mistaking her attitude as being complaining and whiny when in reality, you are simply accustomed to viewing her in that way and have failed to notice the behavioral changes she has made, perhaps in part due to the estrangement you described.

The scenario you described honestly sounds like a coping mechanism. She is deliberately setting herself up for attention, any attention (even ridicule), because it makes her feel like she matters. A common feeling that many depressed people experience, myself included, is one of being socially nonexistent, which often translates into a feeling of social isolation. She may feel like people don't notice her, or acknowledge her existence, so she has to perform actions and behave in ways that deliberately court the attention of others. It doesn't matter whether people actually do notice and acknowledge her presence, or even engages in open conversation with her; what matters is the internal narrative that she is telling herself—a narrative that is often discordant with reality.

Alternatively, that could simply be a sign of manipulative behaviors related to any number of other conditions. I'm definitely not even close to qualified to provide an accurate diagnosis, nor would a diagnosis be possible with the scant information you provided. Your best bet is to report these observations to a licensed psychologist and see what they have to say, preferably multiple licensed psychologists for multiple opinions and preferably ones that are familiar with her and her case.

And as I said before, I didn't say that suicide itself is selfish, it's selfish when it turns into a bother for a big public, like jumping under a train.

So, the circumstances of one's suicide determine the motives of the actor?

Now this is a cold, mathematic and unnecessarily logical. True, our own lives are our matters. But when somebody reaches out for help you are to give it, not to say "well you should do whatever you feel like, after-all it's your life. Since your life sucks, death is going to be good. Good fucking riddance yo". What the heck.

"those who take their own lives sometimes see things much more clearly."

I'm curious, did you met someone who can confirms that? I mean someone who came back to life after he committed suicide and told you:

Man, you should really commit suicide, my life is so much better now!

Well, it's not black and white, but most of times suicide is nothing more than running away from problems.
Sometimes problems can be too great (like, for example, some terminal sickness), but other times they only look too big and could be resolved with some work.

Sometimes it's much easier to eat some pills or close eyes and jump than wake up every day and try to life.

No, no. This thing never happens. It's a daily life for them (train drivers), there's nothing they can do once it happens, and their train has a place to be/schedule to follow. They don't stop.

It almost sounds like you don't suffer from mental illness.

Perhaps the issue is just the use of the word "logical" there. Logic is systemic reasoning adhering to certain guidelines that more or less determine an arguments validity, eg: "reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity" the first definition on Google.

So, to try to illustrate a chain of logical thinking from the standpoint of depression, I'll basically lay out a line of thoughts, directly in relation to your suggestion about them seeking help, and with the intent to show that people suffering from depression DO spend more of their time thinking, and they DO analyze it and then make their decision.

So you start with the premise that they should seek help, and that thinking and reasoning will direct them that way. But here's a series of perfectly valid, logical thoughts that instead lead a person to suicide instead of seeking help:

You say I should seek help. My life is painful. I continue to fail at everything I try to do. Everyone is disappointed in me. I have sought help in the past, and all they did was judge me and point out how I'm selfish and wrong. I hate the way I feel, I hate being like this. It's my fault I'm like this. Everyone hates dealing with my problems. I am bad, and wrong as a person. I have no value. If I was not around to cause these problems, everyone would be happier. The world would be better without me in it. Rather than seek help, just to fail again, I should kill myself to make the world a better place.

I could continue to list off perfectly valid, reasonable and logical premises like that for ages. I should know, I've done it thousands of times in my own head. Thankfully I have a number of people that care a great deal about me and have helped me, and a few of them struggle with their own issues enough to be better at not saying the most unhelpful things. But there's also the fact that I have to be incredibly thankful to my mother for the way she raised me - I'm one of the most stubborn people you'll ever meet, and I care so much about people that I find ways to will myself through the worst of it. Sometimes it's just a matter of trying to solve other people's problems so I can forget my own for a while. But sometimes, it's just simple willpower, I force myself through the day, sleep, and hope my mind is a bit better tomorrow. I find things that work for me from day to day - This website is one of them. Sometimes I'd find a great thread, other times I won something, sometimes I gave something away, but I'd focus on the little rewarding feelings and build on them. Part of how I even do that is because I studied psychology, and because of the kind of methodical, logical person I am. Other people are more emotionally based than I am, and others are more impulsive, etc. Just like no two people are alike, no two depressions will be either, and no two solutions to the problem will be.

For some, they can handle it themselves. Others need therapy. Still others need therapy and medication. Some have to be kept under constant supervision. Some need to have electrodes implanted into their brain and undergo mild regulatory shocks to reset something. And so on and so forth.

Depression can be totally logical and rational, even whilst seeming to people on the outside to be neither. It's all a matter of perception, about what is being thought about, and about how it's being judged. Part of the issue you need to keep in mind here too is that when you are judging the logic of it, you do so based on your perceptions of reality, but they are doing so based on theirs, and the perceptions can be wildly different. Most of us think from the perspective that the loss of the other person is the worst possible outcome, but in a lot of the people suffering from severe depression, they spend a lot of time thinking about how bad they feel, not knowing why, feeling helpless and unable to fix or control it, etc and have thought of so very many ways that it is NOT the worst possible outcome, and is actually the best.

People handle things very differently. This leads to a variety of things, like depression, or PTSD. PTSD is actually a great example to use, because two very similar people in the same situation can react in very drastically different ways. The example one of my professors gave in university was from his own life: He and his sister witnessed a pretty horrible and tragic event as children, visiting a family member in the hospital. The ex-husband of a person in the hospital was taking classes for a pilots license, and whilst piloting a small single engine plane, not in his right mind, deviated from the expected course, and flew the plane at the hospital building. It wasn't known whether he altered at the last second, or the flight instructor managed to gain control, but the plane was pulled up in time to avoid colliding with the building, but stalled and crashed into the lawn just off the parking lot. My professor and his sister were outside as this happened, and the crash occurred so close to them that my professor actually had to be treated for minor burns and lacerations from the crashed plane. He grew up, and loves flying in planes, and has never been particularly bothered by flying, even after having actually been in a plane later that had a minor crash on top of that. Meanwhile his sister suffered some significant emotional trauma from the event, and suffered from a severe phobia of planes and flying, and PTSD. She had to undergo CBT for months as an adult just to get to the point her therapist could take her to the airport and have her not lose her shit at the site of the planes outside on the runways.

Perceptions are reality - Everyone's perceptions are different, therefore everyone's reality is different. Depression is maladaptive behavior, but it is not IRRATIONAL behavior. Irrational or illogical are things like phobias, where you logically know that you are not in danger from something, yet you have an utterly overwhelming sense of fear of it anyway. Part of what makes depression very difficult is exactly how logical it is.

Nothing whatsoever to forgive. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no problems at all with a bit of a thread necro because you found my post and wanted to reply to me. I'll do my best to touch on all your points here. And I thank you for the compliments there. I tend to be a very rational and logical person - even when I am going through clearly irrational and illogical emotional issues. It is a goal of mine to be as lucid as I can be, and as self aware, because those things are the building blocks I use to correct my own maladaptive thinking, as well as guide my friends and family through their own.

So, to start with here: It's very true that a lot of people I knew studying psychology were doing it for reasons similar to your description, and I tend to agree with you that it leads to poor caregivers. I went into Psychology classes out of, more or less, idle curiosity. I was intending to finally get my degree in Computer Science only to find out that my campus didn't offer all the courses needed. I decided to get a basic AA and transfer to Uni instead. In filling out core requirements I decided to take Psych classes since I'd always had some interest - discovered that I really enjoyed it, and wasn't half bad at it. I never intended to be a counseling psychologist however.

If I were ultimately to stay directly in the field of psychology in the future, I would do research. I am self aware enough to know that I would not necessarily be a good fit as a counselor, but more over that I could not handle the feelings associated with any serious failures. I care way too much, and if I failed and had a client get hurt, or commit suicide, etc, the amount of depression and self doubt that would cause would be way too detrimental to my own mental health, which would then lead to a vicious cycle of more failures, both real and perceived. Knowing this about myself, I would never inflict it upon either myself or those that would be expected to trust me as a counselor. I'll counsel and give advice to close friends, because they come to me anyway - the fact that I've studied is irrelevant, or at most tangential. They came to me for help before I ever studied, and they would still come to me even if I hadn't.

You're very right that "traumatic event" is lumped together far too much. More over, people focus on the event, and not the response to it. We have a very real penchant to judge everything based on our own perceptions of reality, and our own perceptions of the idea of normalcy. As you say, those different traumas are all very different from each other. But, perhaps even more importantly, individuals reactions to the same event can be drastically different. What is, for one person, effectively not traumatic at all can be horribly traumatic for another in the same situation. It's been 8 months, so I could be wrong, but I think I went over that in my various posts above and used the anecdote from one of my Psych professors about himself and his sister both seeing a plane crash at a hospital and how he was largely unaffected by it, but his sister suffered for years from PTSD and a severe phobia of planes and flying.

Society does a fair share of victim blaming and shaming, which gets a fairly significant amount of coverage and noted as being wrong. I don't, however, see much of anything anywhere ever going into things like perceptions of loss and trauma. If you lose your job, the common person is expected to move along and try to find a new job, and it's generally not treated as though it is a trauma. For some people, that loss can be devastating with long lasting repercussions. In point of fact, some of the highest suicide rates (at least in the US here when I was studying) were among elderly men, and it was heavily correlated to retirement. The loss of the job they had defined themselves with created a loss in the sense of self, a loss of self worth. Coupled with other issues of advancing age, the traumas kinda all pile together and lead to a much higher than normal development of depression and related suicidal thoughts and behaviors.

Also, you are absolutely correct that seeking care is far more difficult than it should be. It is something that is, imo, abhorrent about the current health care system here in the US. Our health care system is a failure at pretty much every level when it comes to accessibility, but even most of the better options for those that can actually afford medical coverage and what not still have very limited, if any, mental health coverage. Couple the cost with the massive social stigma around mental health care, and it can be extremely difficult to attain. At least here in the US, there are actually some free resources available however, so it's not impossible. Those vary by location however, and in some more rural areas it could be far more difficult than in the more urban. The best bet is to contact a local health department and ask.

That said, our opinion of counseling is not terribly different. I don't voice my feelings on it because I would never want to dissuade people from seeking treatment. I have attempted to seek treatment a couple times in the past, but it has been... Unpleasant. I am, I think, just about the worst possible patient for a counselor as well. I have some trust and abandonment issues, so opening up to someone is not a simple thing for me, but I'm also very intelligent, well read, and fairly self aware. Much of my time in counseling sessions has ended up feeling to me like a waste of time, either because I am unable or unwilling to share enough to get something out of it, or because anything they have had to say was of no value to me as I'd already either realized it myself long before they said it, or realized it was wrong and discounted it.

I prefer to discuss things with my friends as well. For me, it's not only a cheaper, but honestly a better alternative. Sometimes all I need is to get some shit off my chest, have people remind me that they care, and give me the sounding board for me to figure out where my issues stem from. Then I can start to alter my own thought processes, and drag myself out of the cycle of maladaptive thinking. Not that that's easy, and not that that's something I'd encourage anyone to do really - but it works for me. I have managed to avoid becoming an alcoholic or drug addict as a means of self medicating, which is something that happens to a lot of people that choose not to seek proper treatment. However one could argue that I, instead, use books, movies, TV shows, video games, etc as a means of self medicating to escape reality and I'd be hard pressed to say they are wrong. At best, I would argue those things give something positive as well, as I have topics to use to engage people socially, more knowledge to bring to bear on problems presented, and generally less detrimental health effects than drug and alcohol use entail.

And to address your last point there - You are absolutely correct. Everyone has an impact, no matter who they are. And a lot of people in the world are walking a razors edge of neutrality - It takes very little impact to push their daily life to either the positive or negative side of the spectrum. You can make someone's whole day brighter with just a little human decency - a smile or a kind word. Or you can ruin it with the opposite. Sometimes I can be a real asshole, and I know that. I think anyone can be. But I actively try to be a source of positivity, and not negativity. I am a cynic and realist most of the time, but I try to put out more optimism instead because I'd rather the ripples I make with my life help make the world a better place, even if I don't always believe it's a realistic goal. The more the world seems a cruel and dark place, the more reason there is to try to give some warmth and light I suppose. I may never be a roaring bonfire for the people around me... But I still try whenever I see the opportunity to at least strike a match.

And now that I have spent another very late night here making a massive wall of text regarding psychological issues, I bid you, and these forums, a very good night. :)