What's wrong with PC gaming

Could be a failure of marketing. I had never heard of the game until this post.

Also, price points and sales are a very good way to read the market. If a game doesn't sell at full price but sells very well at 60% of full price, then it was proceed too high. That's how market pricing works.

It's a crowded market right now. Hard to get noticed. Hard to beat out all the other games calling for my limited spending money. Would I rather pay a bunch for one new game or pay the same amount for three discounted games? Sometimes I make one choice, sometimes the other.

Business is tough. And blaming the consumer for a failure to sell is the worst possible way to analyze and least from an event.

It's the curse of abundance. There must be at least 5x more games on Steam than on PS Store.

It was one of the best games I played this last year.
Still... 20€ for a 2h game with no replay value is a lot of money. On the other hand, I paid 60 bucks for games I played or enjoyed less.

There are very little games I would pay full price for at release date. Its because I spent a lot of time checking out the coming releases list I found out about this game. So marketing wasnt huge for that one. But it looked like a great instabuy and I wasnt disappointed.

Its always smarter to wait for a price drop, and I dont see anything wrong with that. I dont have unlimited funds so I'd rather buy 3 discount games than 1 new release. Also, this game was appealing to me. I love games like this (Firewatch, Virginia, Among the Sleep, Gone Home, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, etc etc). Thats why I bought it, because I wanted to start right away. Walking Sims arent that popular so I think they did pretty well with the sales already.

Btw, there was a lot of talk about The Unifinished Swan being expensive as well in the playstation forums. Gamers are the same on every platform.
If game is really good it will sell, eventually.

PC gamers in 2017 invest their money very carefully,

And how is that wrong?

. 20€? If it doesn't give me at least 80 hours, it's not worth that kind of money!

No, I am supposed to pay 50€ for 8-10 hours long game (Deus Ex MD?) because...? someone else decided that I should?

I have my own standards and valuation of money and game(s), and I do not think it's anyone's business, honestly.

Didn't read prior comments so may be repeating stuff :

First of all I think the biggest problem is the sheer abundance of games on PC. Indie games are nothing special. Great indie games are nothing special. I have so many on my wishlist I'd be completely broke after buying half of them. So I choose carefully, and buy when I can make the most of my money - Not always the games that I want the most, because getting 3 lesser games (that are still pretty damn good) for the same price seems like a more effective move to me. I get more entertainment for the same amount.

Now, that isn't to say I'd always buy the cheapest games I can. If I really love a developer, I will buy the game (even for full price) at the expense of others. I bought The Witcher 3 for full price and I don't regret it one bit, as it was worth every penny spent. But, say, a developer with 1 successful PS game that I've never played isn't someone I'd throw money at like that. I mean sure, I want their new game, but not enough to buy it when there's cheaper stuff that I might like more.

So, to sum it up, I don't give as much support as I can to the games I like, because if I did that I would not be able to afford food. I do, however, support the games that I absolutely love, because it's pretty much all I can do.

I have "What Remains of Edith Finch" on my wishlist and I was thinking about buying it during this sale. Instead, I bought many other games, that I wanted more, some for like 10-20% discount, so not for half-cheap. I gladly buy games I enjoy for full price, I also back game projects on Kickstarter. The thing is, PC is not console. There are plenty other games to play (some for free). It's different type of market and developers need to understand that. Plus, I really care about game's length. Paying 10$ for something that last 2-5 hours is fine for me, but paying 20$, most of the time, isn't (unless the game have something so amazing and unique that it becomes greater experience than anticipated).

what's the point of buying games on release if you have a library with a lot of them unplayed?
unless it's a game you really want and you will play instantly, it makes no sense to pay $60 when you can get it for $40 in 1-2 months.

but i get what you are saying, i think xD

wouldn't "What's not wrong with PC gaming" be a shorter list? :P

Couldn't agree more. I try to buy some select games (and always indie) on release or with small cuts (like the usual 10 pre-sale/launch week) but with a small income i can't do that more or as much as i wanted. Sometimes i can do it months in a row- a game a month- other times a low year comes...

Reading this however i felt targeted. Generally i would agree and praise but on this instance i found myself amongst the problem- its steam's summer sale, Edith Finch is on my wishlist but i haven't even added it to my cart yet. Btw thanks for reminding me of it, thats fixed now- the last game i bougth with reasonable price was Wartile, just as the sale started, an EA title thats costing even more then Edith :P.
None the less i have been researching purchases; 'Best deals' aren't much a thing for me but want vs price. I have been trying to get the most out of my buck indeed.

That made me think why... and i noticed 2 things.

1) Too many games
I appreciate games. What i mean is that i appreciate then more then play then- from loving documentaries about then, seeing how they're made, staring at pixels instead of beating a level... some would look at me and my ridiculous wishlist and think im a hoarder/collector who cares about +1. Its just that what i enjoy most is novelty, seeing different concepts and worlds and experiences, i don't pirate and demos are a rarity these days so just one way left.
I keep tabs on games, i follow devs and 'play more' then the average user (less of each game and few i beat, but i actually played more games if only less of each)...

...and still theres games i barely touched and entire deals that fly by me. Even with a a big wishlist precisely to keep track of titles. Even lurking on forums... heck since the sale started im pretty much only forum talking and reseaching and still it will end with titles i would buy but simply won't because i won't notice then.
Considering how most players aren't as addicted to keeping tabs on so many games its even worse for others.

Eventually i would reach Edith Finch on my wishlist (its not ranked, its hard to) but fewer then most are used to big ones. Since the sale started my list grew with titles that were under my radar. Its impossible to keep track of it all.

and then...

2) Too many
Okay i would write another thing but deep down point 2's cause is the same.
Just recently i was on a topic on steam i think regarding Yatch Games removal of Shovel Knight's from the store (the base game) for a package with all dlc on a higher price. The price is more then deserved for their awesome job but theres only so many games one can buy in a year (and way less if they were all paid full price). Explaining why once again i would miss on it (i really want shovel, but missed it in the past- low money and no time) i have to put it in simple terms: I rather support 2 other awesome devs like Hollow Knight's and Hyperlight's.

Perhaps that debate set in course a tought i only realized now with your topic- theres one point of this whole phenomenom that is positive to some extent: and that is spreading out the money.

My shopping list is probably 80% indie. They're all great titles on my view and devs that need supporting. Heck if support is singled out as the major factor actually the smaller indies without the pedigree of Giant Sparrow actually need it more then him. I have always felt bad about how pricing on pc is going and increasingly more angry with shorter times to bundle as well (seriously its getting ridiculous) but for the first time im seeing a angle i hadn't before.

I have to wonder if the market were more like decades ago if the majority of said indies would suceed and manage to keep afloat...
...and the more i think about it id bet they wouldn't. Only the shiniest and brightest most popular would. Also some genres would suffer.

Extra) Another food for tought is the increasing player base and reach**
Im Brazilian and we have a history of heavy taxes- they're still on the top 5 across the world on almost any sector. Not so much market protection as all taxes are hefty (government is to blame) but anything from outside markets and also digital get hefty taxes on top.

Not surprisingly Brazil's also had a history with piracy. All the pieces came together- low income, heavy taxes, fewer sources and even unemployment (leading to self-employed illegal sellers). It was such a common place that 9 years ago when i got to steam every single person i knew irl questioned why i was expending with it.
Jump 9 years foward and every pc gamer i know irl have steam and buy games. Steams adjusted prices (a rarity) helped a lot and even kickstarted other ventures (so we have Nuuvem now for example).

While im a indie fan most of said irl friends are AAA follow the hoard kind of gamers, not all but most.
And every single one of them have at least one indie on their library (that i suppose they enjoyed, since generally i see a popular one).

Years ago before steam and the current market if all of them had high income to buy as many games as they do today they wouldn't have bought a single one of those.

So we have to consider the overall sales as well; The price per item is getting ridiculous the number of buyers increases.

But its not all good of course
Obviously.
Some that should barely make enought sales. The devaluation is getting ridiculous. But the offer is high and thats one of the main causes alongside devaluation. Ive saw a talk on gdc regardin those subjects and damn, it got me more scared of game's red waters (too much competition) then the pricing.

And theres the point: because a red ocean market is what causes devaluation.

Steam sales and bundles have kickstarted things for sure- but the root reason sill is competition. Devs lower more and more trying to lure buyers for their title but so are the bigger titles racing against each other on pricing and then we have AAA big houses opting for -90% to get this slice of the market and crush the small fish.

We vote with our wallet indeed, wich is limited. But we can't reduce the market to one factor. The whole dynamic is part of the problem and i don't see in any other market the praised perks of capitalism 'competition -> inovation, quality, variety' appear as proeminent. Its true to the whole tech industry and software but games being creative have even lower limits on venues to explore. We're seeing those many games and genres and niches because of competition and vice-versa.

The tuth is if the market didn't changed like it has been Giant Sparrow's the Swan probably wouldn't even been funded and released on playstation. The indie rise happened because of the market changes (not to mention production costs lowering of course) and indies grew from pc gaming open doors to it.

Im a wannabe dev as many of my friends from college (was directing my scholarship towards game design so it makes sense). I extended my course for a number of reasons from personal problems to getting more classes and in few years spam the number of people close by tying and failing to work with games decreased compared to those getting somewhere. So from one angle the market is better... from another thats part of the problem- theres still many more wanting to get in so it won't get better anytime soon.

...damn.
I just realized im part of the problem both as consumer as for my carreer plans. Goddamit!

I agree with a lot of your thoughts - I think the willingness of so many developers to drop their price quickly is hurting the market. I have such a large backlog of games that I got from bundles that I have no need to rush out and buy the latest game - by the time I "need" a new game to play, the ones I wanted 2-3 years ago will be 75% off. Why spend full price now on a game I won't get to for a while?

Lately I have been trying to resist deals on cheap/bundled games that I won't actually play. I have changed my way of thinking because I realized that when I was a kid I had nowhere near as many games as I do now, but I enjoyed them more, even ones that might be considered "bad" by critics. I keep trying to cut back on my wishlist, and stick to only those games when purchasing one. That said, I do still usually wait for sales, mostly because of my large backlog. I'm just less quick to jump into a bundle.

I also found it kind of funny that your giveaways on this thread are the highly discounted/bundled games that are a large part of the problem. Not a criticism of you - I understand not having extra cash or not wanting to spend a large amount of money on an internet stranger, it just seems like this would have been the perfect opportunity to give away a copy of Edith Finch.

After typing that, I decided to put my money where my mouth is. I kept it fairly short, and hopefully the winner adds me on Steam soon, so I can take advantage of the sale.

If we're talking specifically about Edith Finch then I have to point out a few other factors that are having a definite impact on sales.
Both points boil down to marketing, bad marketing, non-existent marketing in fact. Some of this is on the dev. I only heard about this game in passing from a single Youtube channel, and while they spoke highly of it, the conversation wasn't really about the game specifically, just sort of banter about what one person was playing. I saw no ads or promotion in any form, including a few of the major Youtube review personalities.
The second, related, issue might not be entirely the devs fault but I'm sure they could have done more to help the situation. That situation being very, very poor visibility on steam. I should have been a target customer for this game. I've played a most of the titles that it will be compared to, left reviews on some, and wishlisted a bunch I haven't got to. Even with all that I only realized this was on Steam when it showed up in about my 5th Summer Sale discovery queue. I'm not sure if the devs refused some sort of promotion package with Valve that kept them off the front page and recommendations or if it's some sort of algorithm error. Maybe the devs didn't see the need to pay a marketing person with knowledge of Steam to make sure their game was discoverable (tags, meta data, etc).

TLDR; there was definitely a lack of marketing focus from the dev/publisher that has to take some of the blame for this specific games low sales.
PC Gamer actually did a big data break down near the end of last year and it showed that popular games released at <$30 (typically indies) actually hold their value better than games released >$30 (typically AAA or AA). Edith Finch may have specifically fallen through the cracks but it seems in general the indie scene is as robust as ever and hasn't had to resort to slashing prices just to sell copies.

About What remains of Edith Finch, i just feel it's not my cup of tea. So it's not a price question (and i won't pirate it). Even good rep studio, even 1€ and top seller, it's just that i've not the feeling that i would like it.

Sorry.

We don't have the same opinion about what games deserve support because we don't like the same sort of games.
But to answer to the other part, when i think a game deserves support it doesn't bother me to do an effort paying full price... If it's reasonable price of course !

What is reasonable price ? It's very subjective too. But for example this game : http://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/
37€ simulation submarine game, a rare genre and it's a quality game
i think this game deserves support but price is too high in my eyes. 15€ ok. 20€ maybe yes. 25€ maybe no.
Other example : http://store.steampowered.com/app/582550/Passpartout_The_Starving_Artist/
10€ original and well done, 2h to finish once, 15h to finish all
In my eyes, this one deserves support too and price is correct.

About the hours spent: I always assumed that people meant "hours of good game-play" unless otherwise specified. It's kinda like how command statements have an understood "you" that doesn't need to be said (e.g., "wash the dishes" instead of "you wash the dishes"); "hours of game-play" has an understood "fun" that doesn't need to be said.

So, who's to blame? The sheer number of big sales throughout the year and the high discounts are certainly a factor. People got used to not paying full price.

I think that's not the problem (considering that's the main issue that you brought)... How many good games you have that you didn't even touch? Most Steam Users that I know owns LOTS of untouched games just to have a pleasure to buy and have it available. Some collect, some wants a badge, others wants their cards, but just a few actually play. Now think this but worldwide. You don't even need to have the minimum specs to acquire the game... People buy on Steam (or any other DRM) just to have the game available. Most here probably have more digital games than they played in their whole life.
I don't know... The parts of these thoughts seems to fit in, but they don't.

What's wrong is:

• There are too many games on Steam.
• Valve doesn't have any quality control.
• Most devs don't offer hardly any post-release support.
• Most devs have no idea how to advertise their game.
• Most devs have no idea how to grow a community.
• Many people automatically value digital games less then physical ones.
• Many people wont pay much for short games, no matter the quality.
• Many PC gamers already have more games then they'll play in their lifetime.

I do agree with a lot of your points, but there's one thing bugging me...

To those I say: vote with your wallet! Support the games you like! :)

You seem to judge how people buy games based on how 'What Remains of Edith Finch' sold until now. I read the title of the game in one other thread created by you, but since I'm not very much into walking simulators and there was no other mention of the game in any of the places I usually get my gaming news from, I didn't pay much attention. This might be the problem. The game surely looks interesting and the reviews are great, but there is no PR for it. That doesn't mean that people won't eventually buy the game, but it does mean that the game doesn't sell now.

A lot of people here do wait for things to go on sale or even show up in a bundle, but that might mainly be the case because most of us here are sitting on a backlog that is only getting bigger. The PC market is made up of a lot of players that buy mostly AAA titles that they hear about (I bet a lot of people ordered Wolfenstein II or The Evil Within II right after they became available as pre-order). So people do vote with their wallets, but maybe not for the games that you would like to see more or simply because they don't know better.

I think at least a small part of the problem is that all the good games get drown out by the thousands of garbage games on Steam. It is really hard to find good games sometimes without putting in a bit of work, which a lot of people can't be bothered to do :/

What's wrong with PC gaming? What's wrong is that I have to spend the first 15-30 minutes of a game tweaking the options so they're just right for my set-up! Just kidding. In all seriousness, it's a little bit of a death by a thousand paper-cuts. Pretty much everyone here brought up something different that made sense & was relevant to your question, "What is wrong with PC gaming?"

Too many games, with the good ones being flooded away by trading card farms, meme games, or mobile ports. People being wary of early access & kickstarter games. Key selling websites that offer things cheaper for a sometimes less than legal bargain. Steam is a lot more like a sewage drain these days, rather than a fancy high quality gaming platform. Sure, it's a sewage drain we all hang out in, but that doesn't mean the place is clean.

But even with all of these issues pointed out, it doesn't mean that something is inherently devilishly wrong because one indie game didn't sell well (Or, sell as well as you'd like it to). Like others have said, the "Walking Simulator" market is already niche, with its own issues & its own pitfalls. Sure, PC gaming used to be the place for your point & click & adventure games. But these days it's different, the players, the platform, and the adventure games themselves. None of them are the same as they used to be. And it's not a bad thing, just a different thing.

Overall, you need to focus on good and focus on the things you like, rather than focusing on all the bad and all the chaos. You can't get hung up on a developer being unable to market their game, because they are selling a product, not some life-long friendship. Sure, be nice to developers, but don't act like they deserve the world just because you like their games. You aren't them, leave the nitty-gritty for them to figure out. I could just as easily latch on to any game & read one negative review for it, only to come to the conclusion "Everything sucks & is terrible because I saw one person didn't like the thing I like!" But I'm not going to. I'm going to like the things I like, whether or not they're niche, or if anything else tries to get in the way. Just live life I guess, don't get hung up on the smaller stuff.

Give everybody on this planet enough disposable imcome and they will gladly pay full price for anything! Heck they might even go on vacation or would´nt need to live under a bridge - it´s all fairy dust and sparkles with enough fucking monies. I don´t believe people put up with shit like waiting for deals or not living in a home out of boredom or sheer crazyness 😐

Avatar cost about 300 million dollars. Promotion for the movie cost 150 million dollars.

Marketing is everything. It doesn't matter how good your game is if no one knows about it. I've heard it mentioned somewhere, but I also seek out gaming podcasts, so I might now more than the average person. That being said, I have no clue what kind of game it is or if I would like it.

This is a marketing issue caused by an incompetent publisher (or just a really poor one). Blaming basic business faults on the market makes no sense.

I'm not really sure what you expect. Giant Sparrow only had one game, on a console so far. So naturally they don't have a fanbase and reputation, that could compete with bigger names in their niche.
Their games seems to be of high quality, but also has a rather high price for its genre mixture and with 2h a very short playtime.
And 25% off isn't so huge, that it will make people prioritize that purchase over all the alternatives.

And last but not least: Steamspy always has some few days delay, with their data. But it seems that the sale already results in What Remains of Edith Finch's most sales per day, most active players and more positive reviews.

Actually I think that it is doing rather well.

As far as hobbies go, gaming can easily become very expensive. I do think overall the whole pc gaming community is a bit too stringy, but when you literally have thousands of GOOD games to choose from released over several years, this is hardly something you shouldn't expect.

That's exactly what I'm doing for quite a while. Despite being constantly low on funds I bought Firwatch back when it released for 10% off, Candle as soon as it hit 30% off, Milkmaid of the Milkyway for 10% off on release and this sale I got Pinstripe (33% off) and The Crystal Shard Adventure Bundle (30% off) just to name a few (I also bought The Old Man's Journey a while back, but I refunded that one, because while being gorgeous the gameplay was beyond boring, almost non-existant).
It might not be the same as paying full price, but I still buy those games to support their development. I consider Edith Finch thanks to your post, I did not really take a good look at this game before.

i'm going to tell just in one phrase why people are carefull when buying games at full price.

Here in Spain each month you win arround 700-1000$ each game cost 60$ ----> so one game at full price = almost 10% of total income.
but not only that here one house you pay each month 600-900$ so sry if Spanish don't buy at full price the games.