Why would the points be wasted if it would remove them after you've won said game? I mean, you don't want to win it another time so having it automatically remove the entries would actually be in favor of those who win games because then they wouldn't have to worry about multiple wins if they've entered for the same game multiple time. =)
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If you've got that many you're NOT spending, it's not really wasted then, is it? ;)
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for me most valuable thing is time - for example game have value because it's a program that run on computer - somebody had to spend shitload of time to write that program
I don't do anything to earn sg points - and I value time of support/ga creator/mine time needed to solve re-roll case more than something i get for free (also I became more picky about what I enter - so there is no difference for me in having 300p or 300p +something stored in gas for game I have won already)
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Since you use them to win games on this site, they have some value, unless you consider all the games on this site worthless, in which case you wouldn't use this site in the first place, which is a contradiction.
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In case when I have won game I wanted, and it's a middle of the night (when I have 300 unspent points anyway) - I don't value them - that points will give me nothing - and having them stored in giveaways for a game I have already won will just lead to unneeded risk of winning the same game twice.
I value time - mine, support and ga creator more than points.
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And others value money that they can spend on things more essential than games
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True. Though I don't see how is it related to this topic. You don't buy points.
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You might not buy points but you can directly assign a value to them. Some people can't afford to spend much on games and as such may assign a greater value to points.
Doom hit $15 dollars in a few places in the last sale and the money I'd save winning it rather than buying it would feed me for a week.
So whilst you may value time over points, those points may be the only way some users can get games and as such will likely value things differently than you.
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Yup. On the other hand those people usually use all of their points. The only situation when you loose them is when you have 300 unused.
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Personally, I'd rather "lose" some points than having to deal with multiple wins because it's not only trouble for myself but also for the giveaway creator. =)
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Also, you could wait with marking it received until you sorted out your points.
It just would make sure you don't forget an entry once you mark it.
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I remember on SGv1, occasionally people would have more than 300P, due to a GA being removed.
That might have been eliminated due to potential abuse, I can't remember, but maybe it's possible to skip that check for this case.
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If you really worry about points so much, it could be made that you get them back,
just like when you manually removed the entries. There's no point in keeping your
entries for a game that you already won and received after all.
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there are a ton of reasons people will give.. none of which i feel are any good at all against the stupidity of the current system.. but it's been brought up and shot down so many times it's just not gonna happen. mods/support continue to state its not a issue for them to re-roll even though at the same time they continue to request more support. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and the delay between re-roll request and acceptance/denial is growing larger and larger too, yet still ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I asked something similar couple of days ago. It´s not gonna happen since only one person works on the net code. And yeah, thinking about It seems a lot of work.
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I did a giveaway for this Giant Soundtrack. Due to a price error, it was only $0.04 on Steam, so tons of people were giving it away. It had 24 entries, and the first winner already won it, so I had to re-roll. The second winner also won it, so I asked if there's a way they could just automatically re-roll until it gets a good winner, and they said they're completely unable to do that, since winners are generated automatically. I was told to just go ahead and keep re-rolling until I got a good winner, and was assured that they're perfectly okay with re-rolling over and over if need be. In case you're curious, it took 5-6 re-rolls q:
As for your suggestion that people who already won the game should have their entry removed automatically: that wouldn't be fair to them, because they'd lose points on that giveaway. But besides that, it could screw you in the end as well. Let's say you had 7 entries on a giveaway - two of them decided to just buy the game, and one of them got lucky and already won the game. You'd be left with only 4 entries, which means you wouldn't receive CV for the giveaway. Usually people remove their entries for giveaways of the same title when they win, or they keep their entry until the giveaway is close to ending to reserve points x)
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would be nice if a winner of a gift, that actually does not want it. can have an option to be auto rerolled. that way i don't hafta keep waiting on support for a ticket +++ days old when my most recent winner actually stated he didn't want the game and wants to be re rolled damn it!
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What kind of exploitation if the winner is simply refusing a game? The diference is that instead of the GA creator being the one asking for re-roll, it would be the winner. He/she has nothing to gain from it.
It could actually be in the won games page next to received/not received. If the winner chooses so [before the key has become available], the game would be automatically re-rolled.
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Game goes on sale, person buys it for themselves. A friend makes a 'giveaway' they and some others can enter, do automatic rerolls until the right person 'wins'. That has been one of the issues brought up in the past.
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That requires group of 5 friends - groups like that doesn't need that tool to mess with system - they do it already just in different ways.
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This would raise it to such higher levels because there would be no random in it. Instead of buying the game for myself, I would give the money for X friend to make GA and talk with the others to reroll until I win. Meanwhile currently "only" problem is that if all 5 wants to buy a game, they can just throw in 1 copy each as a GA and get the game, get the CV. But it only works on a 100% level if there are same number of copies as memebrs., while the winner-reroll it would work with every single copy of any game.
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Who even needs a copy of a game? I worst case one of someones private alts would get 3 days suspension for not activated xD
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Yes, those groups would try to exploit the site anyway, but this method would make it easy and cheaper. There wouldn't be anything visible.
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afaik there is nothing preventing this from happening non-automated. the winner can deny a gift for any reason they wish, even if that reason is because it's not their turn to win according to their own group rules. all this cuts out is 4 re-rolls done by staff, and instead it was automated. the only thing that really is ammo here is the fact that there is not a "reveal key check" in place. but if that was added too then the only abuse that could/would happen is abuse that already does happen.
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But with Support involved in the rerolls, suspicious stuff can be noticed.
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suspicious =/= against the rules though, what can the staff even do? also why use it as a reason to prevent this suggestion from being implemented?
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Suspicious gets stuff looked at and can have ban hammers handed out, simple as that.
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so the staff can ban for stuff that is not against the rules? how is that simple? it sounds creepy & scary to me.
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Fake giveaways are against the rules. As well as other rules that users doing fake gives don't seem to care about.
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how are we drifting from re-rolling to fake gifting?
what i am talking about is when someone (winner) requests a re-roll without having revealed the key in the field (would need to add that as well), it would then be automated and goto the next winner in-line. the abuse you brought up was that people would re-roll until a winner was chosen that was desired, which is something that can happen with staff in the mix. -- in no way are we talking about a fake GA.
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how are we drifting from re-rolling to fake gifting?
My example earlier was how people would use this for fake giveaways. I haven't drifted from that as one of the reasons this shouldn't happen.
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how is it fake? your example you said someone bought something, therefore something exists and was real. even if the winner chosen is desired that meant that every winner between had to willingly release their win to them. its something that can happen with staff in the mix approving the entire process until the "desired" winner is chosen. so it changes nothing what so ever, and should have no effect on it being implemented.
if the final winner reveals key and its fake, then report the fake gifter all the same as usual.. all this changes is approx. 1/3 of the re-rolls get automated and it cuts back a small portion of the workload.
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No, the 'winner' buys the game for themselves, a friend makes a 'giveaway' for it, they enter before sync, reroll until the right person gets it. This admittedly can still happen if everyone gets a game at the same time, but that happens less often, and typically won't be for high value stuff (not everyone is going to have a number of friends who all dumped US$60 on the newest game to cheat CV with).
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i see no difference in this being automated or not though, even noticed by staff and known, it's not against the rules so they can't do anything about it sadly. so again, i see no reason why this shouldn't be implemented.
i'm also pro auto-sync and auto-removal of entires, but i ofc have to lay down my sword against that battle, it's just flat not worth the amount of abuse angles that has. but this particular suggestion works out all those kinks and only leaves the abuse that already does and can happen. (at least paired with my "reveal key suggestion" that i stole from a previous thread)
edit: ofc there is a rule-break really.. the winner didn't redeem their win.. or i assume that's the case.. in which case would of still happened even if staff approved it too them.
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It is actually against the rules, I have seen people suspended for being caught out for 'giveaways' that involved games that all the users had gotten before hand. The problem is finding them before it is ended.
I can understand the advantages, but anything that can result in more exploits while not limiting current problems from rule breakers is less likely to be implemented. The current reroll tickets will just be replaced by more user reports at that point.
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well, i see your point there. but we gotta do something against this ever growing ticket issue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ re-rolls are drifting further and further behind because of how much we've expanded. i think a partial automation that has no additional drawbacks and only keeps the same drawbacks that the current system is susceptible too is worth that tiny amount of abuse that can still be caught by other methods.
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actually you know what i just realized.. we both wen't about this whole debate.. but... the whole suggestion revolves around the fact that the winner had to of won the same game twice. lol. that practically kills the abuse angle and it was pure luck or extreme obvious abuse that would get caught easily anyways.
meaning: the "re-roll this GA" button only appears if they have won it twice, and have not revealed the second wins key. in this instance they winner cannot be "desired" unless winner one happened to of won it twice, then winner two happened to of won it twice as well, then winner 3 was the desired winner. -- or the extreme over abuse of a 6x person multiaccounter gifting out precisely 5x keys to all their foe accounts and re-rolling it till all the side accounts are settled properly. (which if done in a stack of 5copies to the 5foes, wouldnt even hit a re-roll need).
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Or simply buy it. Some people do buy their games.
I've also seen a free Steam store game once sine it wasn't removed being non giftable (yeah, because a 5 copy giveaway for that wasn't suspicious). :P
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i'm honestly not sure where the simply buy it comment is coming from or if it's directed to me or what. if it is i do buy all the games i actually care about, not saying some games i've won weren't nice, but the games i care about i purchase for myself.
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Towards the win it twice bit. I've had more rerolls based on a user buying something themselves and forgetting the give.
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oh oh, yeah.. in fact that's the one and only time i had to request a reroll as the winner myself as well.. it wasn't from a prior win. that's why i said this whole suggestion would only cut back approx 1/3 of the re-rolls anyways. just those that literally had won the game twice via the system, and had not revealed the second wins key. those that just refuse the win in general or prior purchased it would still need the staff re-roll approval.
edit: gift created GAs would still need staff approval regardless of multiwin status though. it would only work on keys (which is way higher odds at multi-winning anyways).
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actually no, with the actual system, as it manually, the support can check if it's happening an ban the right users.
I'm saying that because it already happened.
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Rather suspend - and not all users but just the one that doesn't activate gift.
To get perma suspension you have to provide good proof - for example screenshot of conversation where dishonest ga creator want your help in cheeting the system :)
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Use key and press reroll quick - free game for you and no win on sg
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in my case its a game gift :D i never do gift keys. so now i'm still stuck waiting on support to approve reroll since the winner does not want.
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Perhaps you should rework the OP to focus on the part of your suggestion that's most straightforward and feasible:
Having winner assignment check if the winner has already marked the game as Received on Steamgifts, and having it select a different winner in that instance.
As the giveaway has already ended, there's no concerns about point loss or entry count, and as the winner has already marked a giveaway as Received, they've officially told SG that they already own the game, so that's on them and their decisions.
While the other elements may not be feasible, there doesn't seem to be a notable downside to that arrangement.
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I like this idea :-)
It doesn't seem like it would be that much extra work on the system as it only checks entries already in the SG database.
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Great idea that would save a lot of time to everyone involved.
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Free weekends would screw up the system
Edit: Overlooked the "once they mark their first copy "received"?" ;)
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yeah, i wouldn't mind an auto remove entries and get them point back, but i don't win that often so it's not a big deal to manually do it, in my opinion. i would imagine the same for asking for a re-roll, but it would be nice to automate the help ticket response for a reroll for that - you'll need to manually ask for a re-roll but the response allowing you to do so is automated.
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potentially open to abuse, but i'd like to think that that'd be the exception
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I think the problem right now is because of Steam key.
The Steam key is immediately visible on the win page, so there is no prevention for wicked/evil winners to redeem both copies and mark one of them Received while rerolling the other.
If one of them is rerolled, the new winner might get a used key, and the creator just got a Not Received for nothing.
I think it could be a good suggestion to make it in such a way that the Steam key is not immediately visible on the win page.
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Steam keys are only immediately visible if the giveaway has more than 50 copies. Otherwise you have to click send key for the winner to see it.
giveaways with less than 50 keys will allow you to review the winners before the keys are sent.
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Sorry for not being clear on this, I meant the Steam key is immediately visible to the winner (when the creator clicked to send the key, yes).
As a giveaway creator that regularly giveaway keys, I do not always check for every single winner before sending keys. It is a very common practice to just send the keys when it ends.
If any of my winner won any duplicate game, he will be able to see both keys immediately. SG does not have any measure to prevent them from redeeming both and marking both as received.
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Ok, I get your point. However, if the second giveaway is not automatically rerolled, as it's now,
how is that any better? Just because it's not automatic, doesn't mean that someone with ill
intent couldn't redeem both keys and when support grants a reroll request we're exactly at
the same situation you describe.
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Support can decline the reroll request, and issue any suspension if necessary.
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Hmm how about that: implement a simple check before a giveaway creator can send a key, whether one for the same game has been sent already by someone else (regardless if it's marked received or not). That way only one key can be sent to a winner at a time. If the winner got a bad key (for example a fake giveaway) they obviously wouldn't mark it received, so the worst thing that could happen would be that it would require one week waiting before they could mark the first key they got as "not received" and could be sent the second one.
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I think by adding a button at the winner's page to "reveal" the key will be better.
The winner cannot reveal the 2nd key if he already revealed the 1st key (unless marked as not received).
And, if this is implemented, add a new info at the giveaway creator's page for the "revealed/not revealed" status, so the creator can decide to reroll or request feedback.
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Reduce the amount of people getting suspended for multiple wins.
Multiple wins are also not automatic, people mark multiples as received and just trade it away. It's nost like we need a system that prevents this, we need people who don't want to break the rules :)
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Obviously it won't help with folks who want to break the rules (they'd just trade off
the second key they've won before marking the first one received), but it would help
preventing misunderstandings, like people being generally too quick to mark
their winnings received.
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No real easy solution to this, too difficult to work with the people who entered for a several copies of a game (when a new bundle coming out), people who don't log in daily, those who don't enter many GAs, those who enter every one they can. and those who create the giveaways. Maybe someone smarter than me could come up with a solution, but most likely someone is going to have to take a hit.
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Please note, "once it's marked received" ... so it's actually quite easy.
All the information is in the database already. Let's say someone enters
50 giveaways for one particular game and wins 3 of them. Once (s)he marks
the first one received, the other two get automatically rerolled. It's a simple
check in the database whether there's any other giveaway for the same user
on the same game and it doesn't matter if the winner logs in daily or not (apart
from the automatic reroll going through faster of course).
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Oh yeah I get that part. When I say there is no easy solution, I am saying that most solutions like that have some sort of flaw in them, if only slightly.
For example, with that one the points may be lost (which personally I don't find much of an issue, I rarely drop below 200), but more importantly it still allows for multiple people to send the gifts or the key before the reroll, which in turn would still allow for issues where one person can "redeem" more than one win and simply say "Oh, I didn't use that one, it must have just been already used before the person made the giveaway." This COULD be somewhat circumvented by creating a queue of won duplicate games where they have to mark one as not received after a certain time frame before they could even see any of the others.
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Yes, but it's not like the current system offers any more protection against winners "redeeming" more than one key for a game if they're sent more than one. So yes, maybe we also need some queue as I already suggested here Other than that I don't see any disadvantage in rerolling right away, once a key for the same game has been marked received. Unless you can think of any other flaws?
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If a queue system is put into place, it may work better. Only other thing I can really think of is in the case that the first giveaway creator doesn't send the gift, the other ladder giveaway creators will have to wait potentially a week and even then not be able to reroll until the winner gets a chance to actually redeem one of the wins. I could see this being circumvented iIF the queue is composed of the giveaways that are only marked as "Sent" and not simply all of them if that makes sense.
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Would it be really so bad to wait a week?
- Even now, when I have to ask for a reroll because someone won something twice, it may be that I have to wait a week for support to grant that reroll.
- Even with the current system, winners have one week to redeem their keys
Let's imagine the worst case scenario that someone has won a game twice, where giveaway A is a fake, and giveaway B is the real thing. If the creator of giveaway A never sends anything, it would be resolved quickly as the creator of giveaway B would send the key first and it would be first in queue for the winner to pick up (if the winner fails to do so after a week the creator of giveaway B can ask for a reroll). However, if a fake/invalid key for giveaway A is sent first, then theres one week time to resolve the situation, after that the winner marks "not received" and gets key B from the queue. There's never more than one key revealed to the winner at a time and the waiting period is never longer than a week unless the creator chooses to deliberately give their winners more time.
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Oh. I never noticed (the automatic wrapping I mean).
Also most of the lines are just too long for my taste.
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with this particular suggestion they aren't asking to automatically removal entries or any of that jazz. api shouldn't be needed at all for somebody marking something received or not. this suggestion also works out the "points" and "free weekends" as well, because there isn't an automatic removal of entries or sync..
simply suggesting if a game is already won multiple times then it has a auto-reroll upon the mark of receiving. the only issue i forsee with this suggestion is intended malicious behavior, which nothing will prevent what so ever. but i think having a few tickets to deal with that malicious behavior would be better then having support have to deal with needless re-rolls that could be automated.
edit/update: most of that malicious behavior could be avoided if a simple "reveal key check" is put in place as well. once the key is revealed it cannot be auto re-rolled.
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Which isn't a good idea because one of the giveaways could be fake, or the key invalid.
how does that change anything, if the one they activated properly was a good key and request a re-roll for the key that is fake it's still a re-roll, it's just one that takes even longer to figure out that it is fake.
As for your suggestion, someone could activate the first and before marking it as received (so the second would be rerolled) take the key of the second giveaway. Then it's the creator's word against the winner's, and since there's is no way to check keys, or who owns them the winner might get away with it.
this would be classified as "intended malicious intent" something i already had forseen and mentioned. i also edit/updated a excellent solution to this problem.
i totally agree on the rest though, the api would make for a much better fully automated system however. xD
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This suggestion is supposed to prevent double wins from happening at all by implementing a totally automated system
"in case someone is too lucky for their own good and wins a game twice" there is no prevention there. the suggestion is merely for those that have already won a game twice.. i thought the same at first and this was like all the other suggestions trying to prevent it from happening, but it's not. this is a suggestion that if combined with a reveal key check, could work with no drawbacks besides the abuse that you continue to fallback on even though that doesn't change the fact that abuse will happen even if the automation wasn't there.
i still agree that a proper api would be a fully automated sg and much better though too. but this suggestion really doesn't have the same kinks that "auto-removal" or "auto-sync" brings about, its just susceptible to the same abuse that would normally happen. this suggestion also only cuts back probably only ~1/3 of the re-rolls though, so it's only good to cut back on some of the load, certainly not all.
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Carlica suggested just rerolling automatically when there's a double win, not when actually marking one of the two as received.
No I didn't ... I said (quote) "once they mark their first copy "received"?"
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each time you automate sg even more, you just benefit people using autojoin scripts and entering everything to +1 libraries and idle cards.
we don't want or need that. this is a community, not a free-games dispenser.
people with a real interest in winning some games (and that means they will play them and won't leech everything that moves on sg) don't need to have everything handled to them like candy.
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Just a quick question, is there any reason why we can't have an automatic reroll
in case someone is too lucky for their own good and wins a game twice (or even
more often) in short succession, once they mark their first copy "received"?
EDIT: Oh and while we're at it, also automatically removes all subsequent entries into
said game.
I currently have two winners who won the same game just a moment before my
giveaway, waiting on two tickets to reroll, it's not a big problem, I can wait, but
it might also reduce the amount of people getting suspended for multiple wins.
Or did I miss a point? Is there any way for an exploit?
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