Do you think devs / publishers abuse human psychological traits when making their games?
I agree, that's why I found it refreshing back in the day when GTA V launched the casino expansion they had a hard limit on how many money you could swap for casino coins every day.
So it limited the real world money you could spend to something like $10-15 a day on the casino if you went shark cards only.
And the daily max amount was easily gained with in game play anyway so no real need to use cards for it regardless.
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No idea they had a real casino in GTA V. Even though they put a spend limit, it shouldn't be a thing at all in my opinion. It's not so different from going to Las Vegas, only house earns money.
Also, apparently it was your cakeday, so happy belated cakeday. :)
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I can understand your point about the casino. However it was more a background for the expansion.
You had new property, missions and wheel of fortune you could spin for free every day (no way to get extra spins).
I think it was something like 10k per hour you could swap for casino coins, after each swap a 1 hour countdown would start so if your first was at 9 am and you where busy with stuff and your second was at 10.15 am. Your third was only available after 11.15 am.
And 10k is quite easy to get once you have some good gear.
And those swapped coins where quite quickly spend so you where unable to be hours in there.
So in my opinion they put correct restrictions in place for the setting.
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I see. Didn't play GTA V myself so barely know things about it, thanks for the explanation. So shark money is for casino only or is it some kind of in-game money that also can be bought as MTX? If so, no wonder Rockstar won't bother to make a new game.
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In gta you have only 1 currency the in game "dollars". The shark cards give you a set amount of these dollars you can spend in game.
To buy weapons, ammo, vehicles, houses businesses.
These in game dollars you can exchange for the casino coins like I explained earlier.
So unlike other games it is very easy to keep track on the amount you spend on something.
And yes that's why they are slow with gta 6, and keep launching it on the new systems since those saves don't carry over as far as I understand. Since the rockstar account is bound to the game license key. So if you go from ps4 to 5, it registers as a new game I guess.
But I have no console so not sure on that.
There are plenty of ways you can make money in the game, but you need an initial pile of cash to start with the good ones.
So it is an incentive for new players to buy one to hit the road running and be on equal ground with long term (pc) players.
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Not just to exploit it but to create and develop it.
It's easy to blame the parents but there are a lot of places kids have access to games and devices (school, friend's homes, older siblings etc) that are deemed "safe" because there's a whole lot of software to protect them from online predators... except the predators are not the ones parents think they are.
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I agree. The only problem is getting proper identification while creating accounts. A checkbox that says you're over 18 doesn't do it. It works for companies though as a basic CYA but it's not enough to actually protect kids.
And all that grinding forcing you to stay longer if you want to progress.
And all the shortcuts sold to make the grinding shorter, yeah.
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Yeah, that's even worse: Recruiting new addicts. Definition of drug dealers.
It's easy to blame the parents
Teens like secrecy. I wouldn't blame parents there, at least not in the first place. However they should try to know what's going on in their child's life. Parents also to be blamed, but definitely not as the companies who make these games.
People should know that there is a thin line between being an addict and loving something too much. One of them doesn't ruin lives, still surely affects though.
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However they should try to know what's going on in their child's life.
Totally agree. It's easy to throw the towel and say "hey at least they're not doing drugs somewhere, they're on their computer/console, no harm done". Taking an interest in their interest can go a long way to make sure that you stay connected and that they are not falling into toxic behaviors. But it doesn't absolve companies which are using psychological conditioning on kids from the apparent safe place of a harmless game to make money off them.
People should know that there is a thin line between being an addict and loving something too much. One of them doesn't ruin lives, still surely affects though.
Too true. I guess it can be hard to distinguish for parents because teens tend to fall passionately into things like their life is now 100% about what they love, whether it's a band or a video game but there are signs that things are not normal and establishing boundaries like limiting screentime and being mindful of money spent that should ring the alarm when things go off the rails before it's too late.
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Taking an interest in their interest can go a long way to make sure that you stay connected
Agreed. Even if it's fake it's important to make them feel that you're giving attention to their lives, it's better if it's real because it would be easier to remember the details.
But it doesn't absolve companies which are using psychological conditioning on kids from the apparent safe place of a harmless game to make money off them.
They're doing a disfavour to the community on the long run and they should be held responsible for their actions since they are doing this purposefully and better if it can be prevented legally once and for all. At that point they are not selling a product, what they do is not so different from obvious scammers.
I guess it can be hard to distinguish for parents because teens tend to fall passionately into things like their life is now 100% about what they love
Yeah, that's pretty hard. I think the main difference is passion gives spark to the eyes while addiction only gives dullness. Hopefully no one would have to face a kid who is passionate about an addiction.
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This is one of the stupidest claims I have ever heard - they should have no chance
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That's a simplification. He's "just playing games with friends" at 12. Signs of addiction come way later when things get out of control.
By then it's probably too late. My nephew is 10 and his mom (my sister) is super conscious of issues regarding game social pressure and all that jazz and she refers him to me when he mentions a new game so we can talk about it, so I can research the game and see how exploitative it is.
But a lot of parents have no idea how games work. Even if they do know what the kids are playing, they probably don't suspect the level of psychological manipulation from these reputable companies, or how they use social pressure in multiplyer games to make kids spend money.
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True it is a simplification, however that parents have no clue, can be partly be put on them.
It is getting more and more common that parents put a screen in front of the kids to keep them busy, but don't check what's on the screen.
I understand the fact that parents don't have the time to keep an eye on it 100% of the time, but it doesn't absolve them completely.
It is good what your sister does, but I fear she is in the minority of parents that keeps an eye on such things.
The one thing that always bogles me is how parents don't know about the microtransaction stuff, its mostly their money being spent.
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It is getting more and more common that parents put a screen in front of the kids to keep them busy, but don't check what's on the screen.
It's rampant. My gf had an argument with his brother when he bought his 8 year old a console to "keep him busy" (ie to keep him busy without me having to care about what he's doing). He is a good kid but he has a lot of friends with older siblings and things went off the rails quickly with him playing very violent and graphic games. If he hadn't talked to his aunt about nightmares he was having, nobody would have noticed.
The one thing that always bogles me is how parents don't know about the microtransaction stuff, its mostly their money being spent.
Games are smart. You can buy credits, wallets, whatever and nobody is checking that the "ok that's your 15 bucks this month, don't spend it all at once" wallet is also being supplemented by grandmas and grandpas, who have no idea what the hell the game is but want to please their grandkids, or the cool aunt or uncle who don't know what to give you for Xmas, or Mom because Dad didn't tell her he had already given the kids money this month etc.
There are also games where you can sell stuff in game. Parents have no idea about that.
And then there are crafty kids. My nephew has a friend who uses this trick: he asks parents to buy him small things like a baseball cap or a new basketball. He goes back to the store on his own and asks for a refund, then goes to get himself a prepaid card that he uses in game.
Parents don't notice the item is gone. Who notices the new cap is never worn?
He only got caught because he hit the same store twice and the store manager started worrying the kid was doing drugs or buying booze and called the parents.
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" things went off the rails quickly with him playing very violent and graphic games."
I assume the games where bought by dad?
Whenever I wanted new games they where always checked by my parents.
To be fair the age ratings are not always correct (a pokemon game got a 13? age rating for a slot machine in a mall, pixel graphics and no way to spend real cash in the game, while nba had full on casino sounds and effects for the cardpacks which was all ages?).
"Parents don't notice the item is gone. Who notices the new cap is never worn?"
My mother was an exception I guess, basically nothing went under the radar.
"the store manager started worrying the kid was doing drugs "
Good community responsibility, its getting down the drain more and more what I see.
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I assume the games where bought by dad?
I think they were free to play games but I'm pretty sure his dad didn't check the games he was asking for. Like for example, we found Siren Head: Awakening on his laptop. Yeah it's free but hm... he was 9. Definitely not a game he should have been even looking at, no matter how much the cool older kids at school are talking about it
Whenever I wanted new games they where always checked by my parents.
My gf and I are checking the games from now on. The kid takes a no from us better than from his dad anyway but yeah that seems like something parents should do, right? Even when they know nothing about games. It takes about 20 seconds to google a game name and check screenshots.
My mother was an exception I guess, basically nothing went under the radar.
Haha same. Different generations? I don't know.
Good community responsibility, its getting down the drain more and more what I see.
Yep. Small towns make it a bit harder to go stealth when you're doing something you're not supposed to maybe but there are too many people who go "not my kids, not my problem".
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"Haha same. Different generations? I don't know."
Thats one thing for sure. Its a thing from all ages that the "older" generation complains about the new one.
However what I see IRL and online the term "snowflake" is getting more and more descriptive off certain people.
We are heading in the direction that you need to walk on eggshells with everything you do and say.
Other wise you offend somebody and you might get arrested (looking at Canada and the UK).
And free to play is indeed hard to block. Only thing you can do about that is regularly check the contents I guess.
There are programs out there that can block certain stuff (parenting mode/tracking programs) but if you are a bit tech savvy you can easily find a way around it.
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I kinda understand if its games that has lootboxes or pay2win etc.
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There are plenty of games that use psychology to trigger people in purchasing stuff.
Mostly the loot box/ microtransaction type games.
There are several videos out there where people explain what the strategy is in certain scenarios.
Like countdown timers on an offer, starter packs for a "discount" the first 24 hours you play the game.
The flashing presentation when you open a loot box etc.
It has all Psychological triggers used in it.
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Roblox, Fortnite, Call of Duty ok, but Minecraft ???
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First let's be clear. Some of the "games" mentioned are not just games. They are almost literal gateway drugs, using all the tactics of drug dealers and they are targeted at very young "gamers" in the hopes of creating, developing and fostering habits that lead to addictive mentality.
And then you have Roblox, which is an entire ecosystem of exploitation, abuse and money making for which FOMO and drug dealing tactics are really just scratching the surface of the problem
So yeah these should be sued, possibly bankrupted and made examples out of so that this kind of BS doesn't happen again.
Now if we were talking about games, and entertainment, I'd say it's BS but we're not.
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I honestly didn't think it was that bad. The Guardian is pretty trustworthy but I checked out other sources that have written on the subject and it's pretty scary how a game basically became an ecosystem for child exploitation and slave labor.
I guess humanity can turn pretty much anything to sh*t but that was still unexpected.
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I love it when this subject comes up, cause its fascinating to me, especially as a gamer.
Are games addictive? sure they are. they have been addictive since Pong. But that ain't saying much. That's like asking if fun is addictive. I think a better question is how much harm can a game actually do to you? Can it make you depressed, broke, anti social, unhealthy? Some have claimed all that stuff.
Don't forget that big game companies are as amoral as any other money making organization, they want to sell product and don't care much about how their customers effected by as long as more people buy more product. Holding these guys' feet to the fire once and awhile is a healthy thing.
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As always the media are talking about "games" to make it look like games are the problem but the real issue here is companies using games to mask a series of abusive habit-forming techniques to make kids spend an increasing amount of money on micro-transactions.
The games and the fun are not the part that are addictive. The spending is.
Holding these guys' feet to the fire once and awhile is a healthy thing.
Agreed. Especially when they target kids.
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As always the media are talking about "games" to make it look like games are the problem but the real issue here is companies using games to mask a series of abusive habit-forming techniques to make kids spend an increasing amount of money on micro-transactions.
"Hanging out with all the wrong people
I was hanging out with all the wrong people
And if I'm never seen again
Please tell my wife and tell my friends
That I was hanging out with all the wrong people"
c/o Billy Talent
In this case those just aren't the punk kids from the neighbourhood seducing your kid into all this "no future" mood, it's global players selling your kid (mostly virtual) social reputation for your hard cash while you don't even notice.
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it's global players selling your kid (mostly virtual) social reputation for your hard cash while you don't even notice.
Crazy right? And worse than that, most parents probably would know how to recognize "the wrong people" if their kids started hanging out with them but Microsoft, Epic, all that? They are trustworthy known companies, right? Not scammers so it's all good right?
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This is like suing Baywatch for using too many large breasted actresses in bathing suits.
There is an issue with mental health and balance, same as there is an issue with nutritional health and overeating.
If they're not suing sugar manufacturers and producers of sexually explicit media, they shouldnt be able to sue video game manufacturers.
People need to be responsible for their own mental health, and at the most companies should institute a similar prompt to what Nintendo did on the Wii or what my ebook reader uses as well, after a set amount of time, it reminds you to take a break. At that point it is up to the person to make good choices.
It's on community and society to inspire more mental and social health amongst the people.
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FINALLY
But... Minecraft? I don't know about Call of Duty, so I can't tell, but Minecraft? Ah, maybe the Bedrock edition...
But, YES. Lootboxes and stuff are a form of gambling, they're just a way to dodge legislation. Just a pity they didn't sue major mobile game companies, as well as gacha ones. They should sue Google/Apple too to have a better filtering/curation of their stores.
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At that point it is up to the person to make good choices.
But we're not talking about adults, here, we're talking about habit forming tactics used and aimed at kids to create a permanent state of imbalance. Kids are not responsible for their own well being. Parents are. But parents are often at a loss as to what is really going on in those games.
They think it's harmless fun when it actually hides a lot of scammy psychological traps to create addiction in young easy targets.
If the lawsuits get news coverage, that should at least warn parents that there are more than one kind of online predators they should be worried about and that not all of them are taking care of by cybernanny software.
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Any new form of entertainment gets the same response. Novels, Radio, many other things had the same complaints.
For a modern example see Jack Thompson
Also see the The Columbine kids (trigger waring: mass shooting) Doom was blamed for making them killers when the reality was that they were baby fascists.
Should be children be allowed to gamble with real money? No. I don't think anybody disagrees with me.
It's only allowed on a technicality as it is. You could still have random loot, just legally require there be a disconnect between RMT and the random element.
Some of this is parents that won't accept responsibility for raising their children. The parent in question let their kid play for six years before they turned eighteen. They have some part in this. Don't abdicate responsibility to society.
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At last something begins to happen with this crap. I surely hope, that it will finally get the ball rolling and some standards (or at least ratings) for online games will be established. Addictions to particular games, which publishers try to induce as much as they can, have certainly caused a lot of harm to countless players.
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Imho there are two aspects why gaming can get addictive: escapism and social pressure.
While new types of media have always been attacked by rather conservative people and thus it's easy to counter those arguments, we have to admit that no book, no music album, no movie captivated its audience for hundreds of hours. Books can be immersive, too, and since fantasy is limitless, the medium has advantages. Yet I haven't seen anyone being called out as an addict, because they read all disc world novels within a week.
But there are games as a service now and there are ways to break the player's urge for new content: PvP, RP, grind, creativity, socialising. These parts only need a framekit and tools, be it Minecraft blocks, endless prestige levels, player event tools, individualisation or chat. MMO(RPG)s have been using these long-term motivations for two decades and they don't even need the immersion single player games or even virtual reality could provide. That would increase the risk of escapism and potential addictive behaviour, but it's not required.
Important is that you can leave your real life problems, weaknesses and anxieties behind, build a new more successful "you" and find companionship, often people in a similar situation like yourself. You easily find new "friends", maybe even a love interest and you suffer from FOMO when busy with RL.
Now even if you were in a good shape when starting to play, being somewhat successful within or helpful towards the community, can lead to social pressure: a group or community relies on you. As an important part of the regular raid, as PvP group member for real life or online friends, as a crafter for your clan or as an event organiser for RP. Even worse in P2W games, when you're supposed to be or stay one of the spenders. Some of your playmates might have become actual friends and express worries about your playtime, but it's easy for you to lie about your situation and find excuses.
You can only get out of it by yourself (finally realising what you neglected or even lost in RL) or through the intervention of parents or real life friends. There's the responsibility. Are P2W and loot boxes bad? Sure, but there are capitalism, lottery and gambling in the real world, too. There are workaholics and gambling addicts. And similarly it can only be avoided by education, self-reflection or worrying people around you.
take advantage of the chemical reward system of a user's brain (taken from the article)
A pretty smart online game friend of me and becoming psychologist back in the days (like 2005, when gaming or internet disorder only existed for the victims, but barely for doctors, psychologists and not for regular people) replied to me regarding this topic: "The worst drug is love, but noone would ever ban it."
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There certainly needs to be some proper regulations put in place when it comes to how publishers design and market their in-game transactions, I personally think that governments should start enforcing some sort of verifiable age check so that minors can't access any loot box or similar gambling mechanics, if big publishers being repeatedly sued helps to bring about regulations then I welcome this.
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i mean, they have literal teams designing the game to suck you dry as much as they could, it's literally in the game design.
lootboxes should have their own law,
games that only sell skins should have their own law,
and games that have micro transactions should have 10 laws so you could sue them if they fuck up.
here is a law, you can only charge your account 500$, then 1000$ then 2000$ then 5000$ then 20000$, no more micro transactions, only macro transaction so you can see how dumb you are lol.
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the voice in league of legends uses a tone to aggravate people and make them mad at the other team. when kills are achieved by the other team. mad people play the game more. stupid toxic community
turned that bitch off
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It's clear some mobile games exploit psychological traits in people in order to maximise their revenue. There are experts whose job it is to advise people on how to design their game in order to suck as much money as possible. And nowadays a design decision in a AAA studio is often made using potential revenue graphs instead of enjoyment focus group playthrough results.
And then there are people who make games because they enjoy playing them. Those are the ones we should support.
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It's tough. I don't think you should gameify purchases via lootboxes etc. But at the same time people need to take care of themselves.
I have an addictive personality. I dropped too much money on browser games for no reason. I feel like it's up to me to avoid things like that.
But at the same time there's no reason for any company to exploit that. No one would suffer if lootboxes weren't a thing, people like buying anyway.
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Many games are addicting because they are just very fun. Other games are addicting because they use gambling tactics. And still others use manipulative FOMO tactics like daily challenges and rewards. Games shouldn't be punished for being fun. They should be punished for unregulated gambling, especially for letting children gamble. FOMO tactics may be unethical to varying degrees but I don't think they warrant punishment.
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I think for the majority, that have been in the industry for a long period of time, yes. They know what they are doing and their intention is quite evident.
We do get some Indie devs that hit the nail on the head with a gameplay loop or mechanics that surprise even them for the major success, and you can tell the difference in what they write.
A wholesome, yet interesting story, was with Flappy Bird, remember that mobile game? The dev was so shocked at how out of control and addictive it got that he decided to delist the game from the store, regardless if it was a massive success.
Sure, other similar games arose but, that's one in the few stories I heard that don't abuse human psychology for their own benefit to milk people of time/money.
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I think they do. I also think there is not a problem, since you can just stop playing games if you find it bad for your lifestyle. Like other addiction.
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Yes. Though I wish they would stop with all the microtransactions & DLC. Lower the volume a bit so it doesn't feel.... "forced".
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You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits
There's more: Source. This is one of PC Gamer's better articles.
Adding this from the article because why not:
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