Sounds like there's a tendency in gamers to think they only deserve the best of the best and it has to be exactly how they want it to be. If they don't like it, they will often throw the 'I paid for this, I think this is sh*t and it's the dev's job to make me happy, I'm super mad now' argument.
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When one looks at other industries, they tend not to hold the 8-15 years-old demographic focus at such primacy, and thus those industries do lose the playground language. But this just makes the homophobic and anti-feminist insults more erudite.
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Ppl come to gaming to have fun.
So when the fun stops happening ( for various reasons, sometimes even unrelated to the game itself ), they get proportionaly pissed, to the fun they've used to have.
A void is created, and when that happens, something tends to take its place.
In this case, hate. Reflecting the true nature of many.
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K
but wishing somebody cancer,his family dead and so on...aint exactly proportional reaction...
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It is, if they're also extremely egoistical, desensitised, and ignorant.
Expecting the world, and not giving a shit about making some random stranger feel awfull.
Then there's the community they relate to, that plays a crucial part.
See Uroboros' reply to bobofatt, a few posts bellow, I couldn't say it better.
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I did read Uroboros post and there are some parts I do agree with,but before I go to that,let give you an analogical example:
Imagine you are a painter,as an artist presenting his work to wide public you are prepared to recive some criticism,thats natural.Now for some reason,the people who dont like your painting instead of ignoring you and your painting,or simply saying its piece of crap,are verbally and physically attacking you,your family,chasing you out of the town and so on...And its all cause they didnt like your painting...
I mean seriously,do you really think thats proportional reaction?
Yes the people involved in developing and publishing video games can be di**s,I remember buying EA game that was bugged at some point just didnt even launch and the support i recived was laughable,you know what I did?I stopped buying their games for 5 years.If a merchant sells me flawed merchandise I simply stop buying at his shop.That is the way to hurt them and send the proper message.
But the problem we stand in front of right now goes deeper.8 years ago I played Guild Wars Factions,for all the time I played this game (was probably 2-3 years)I encountered 1 dude that called me noob,that was all the "hatred" I recived.Now start any online game Its not gonna take an hour before some1 is going to wish you had cancer,call your mother bit** and so on.My man this is elementary,how on Gods earth can any1 say things like, its normal,its internet or in any way justify behaviour like this?
I agree with Uroboros that giving a hater too much attention aint the way,but ignoring something so rotten,right in front of our noses aint the way either.In every culture before us when parents were too busy hunting,gathering or whatever,it was the society that took responsibility of rasing the young ones and what do we do?We ingore it?Laugh at it?Respond with the same hatred?Dear God...Those are our children,can you imagine what kind of pleace the world will be in couple of generations if this moral degeneration continues?
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I was merely trying to explain what happened in their minds. ( not what's civilised, or to find them excuses ) . Just entirely from their point of view. That has little to nothing to do with reality or with what is civilised.
A truly selfish, and ignorant person will only think about oneself, while not having any ounce of empathy for other persons. I've met such persons, grown ups. Not pleasant experiences. It isn't right but, that's how it is. And just a few from those are willing to listen to reason. But the choice who you interact with, is soloely your own. Even as a developer. Your example is irelevant in this situation, nobody has any right to chase anyone anywhere. Yeah, they're going too far even so, but every garden has it's weeds. But I assume it's the ethical part of this, that bothers you.
I completely agree with you over what is the civilised reaction, the producers & publishers weren't part of my point.
What online games do you play ? I sometimes play PWI, and a few other, but nobody has ever wished me cancer or anything like that. When a retard pops up, most ppl just blacklist him. Problem over.
As for the degeneration of culture, the problem is more complex then it seems. The Internet is much wider spread than it was a few years ago.
The tendency in educated families is to have only one, or no kid at all. While that doesn't apply to those less educated.
Many parents nowadays just abandon their kids in front of the TV and PC, while pursuiting career and financial benefits, and they only show their care by spoiling them. That's a mistake. These kids grow up without knowing any hardships, nor the warmth of a family, and don't learn to apreciate anything. They don't learn the purpose of respect. They take the rating seeking idiots they see on the TV as models. Then they interact with those disturbed communities Uroboros talked about, and get carried along. Every kid wants to be the coolest kid. Just the way they go about it differs.
The problem is even more complex than that.
You mentioned society. Well...the problem IS the society. Just look at all the wars waged over the last 100 years, and you'll get a sense of just how fucked up this world is. We have a busy, stressed, and partially uneducated population. The best you can do, is to first of all, take care of your own kids. Keep your values, follow your path and if that ends up influencing some ppl for the good, you have acomplished more for this world, than many do.
I do wish you succes, my good man. And keep your sanity about you. Concerning yourself with matters which aren't your own, is the easiest way to lose it.
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First of Im sorry I misunderstood you,thought you meant that its a proportional reaction in general,which obviously you did not.Well yes,ethical/moral part does bother me a lot,but theres also common reason,if theres something you dont like you simply ignore it right?You dont bully or threat the person who created this or that.
Now I remembered how the same thing was going on before Mairlyn Manson`s performences...yeah you right it goes deeper...
I mostly enjoy MOBAS which for some reason have the worst communities,but it was the same when I played Dawn of War,believe it or not even Dungeon Defenders.Absolute force Online had the best community i met in years,till the hackers arrived and game died.
With everything else you wrote I do agree,Iv seen it,see it everyday.If I may though I wouldnt put so much faith in education(if by education you mean schools).In school i learned how to cheat,i was in a fist fight at least once a week,our teacher was literally beating us(by us i mean myself and couple of guys she didnt like)I learned how to lie and the list goes on and on.It was my parents and family and some older friends that thought me well manners,It was my martial arts trainers that layed the fundation for me to learn discipline,it was THE RIGHT movies and games that opened me to my sensitive or empathic if you will,side.
To summarize my point about society,we both agree its generaly fuc*** up,but theres a lot of parental figures and activities to show a different path to the youth(and older people aswell).All it takes is a lil effort to look for it,a gentle push in the right direction...
Again I agree that trying to control others is a way to lose ones mind but on the other hand wouldnt you agree that indifference is a part of the problem?
Thank you for your time it was a pleasure talking with you.
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A lot of it is deserved tho, or are you telling me people like phil fish and the devs at Dayz should just be handed a free pass.
And just like that post by someone so dedicated to his cause he decided to remain anonymous... (did martin luther king hide in anonymity? no) ...said, "Out of the millions around the globe who will pick up our game and love it, only thousands will flock to the Internet and scream about how much it sucks" a few thousand out of millions, pretty surprisingly good considering how its human nature to only give a shit about oneself, no matter whether someone says they are the most generous person in world etc, they still do it for themselves.
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Every single time you bring up negative stuff like this, there's always at least one guy who tries to excuse it by saying something like, "yeah well there's x everywhere". -_-
It's a great philosophy really, because that means we never have to face up to anything.
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+1
True,flawed argument,flawed and immature logic actually,
"you did this or that"
"yeah but he did other stuff so im justified,and reliefed of any responsibility"
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Look at it like a movie. If someones name was plastered all over a movie as this guru director, the movie comes out and is likeable but not that good. Then another one, and another one, and so on, and they all miss the mark. Certainly after a while you will be hesitant on the money you would spend to go and see more because it is just not doing it for you anymore. You would look elsewhere and spend your money elsewhere. I sorry but I dont trust devs anymore.
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Reminds me of when a developer put a group of hardcore Call of Duty players playing RO2.
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Anonymous bitching holds little weight. The developer in question should have the balls to put his name to his editorial.
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It doesn't look like it's about bravery here. If he gave out his name, it would probably have been more personal and his opinion could have been associated with certain games/people/companies.
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I think without his name, it just seems bitchy and whiny. If the guy has a legitimate point, which I believe he does, the whole editorial would have a lot more credibility with a name attached to it.
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To tell truth, without name you can't say "s/he sucks and her/his games suck" because he might be someone who made your favorite game.
Without name, it's voice of industry. Industry full of faults, but still doesn't deserving "kill your family then yourself" 'criticism'.
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"Out of the millions around the globe who will pick up our game and love it, only thousands will flock to the Internet and scream about how much it sucks—how it's broken, how it's buggy, how it stinks so much..."
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"If it sucks so much they should just make better games." Right, because that's easy and certainly you could do better.
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No, I can't actually. However if people are really complaining so much about how broken and buggy it is they could've/should've done more play testing and what-not.
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Indie devs, and individual employees of large studios aren't doing what they're doing to make loads of cash, they're doing it because they love video games. Unfortunately love of games doesn't always translate to ability to create them. Saying they're only out to make a quick dollar is a bit disrespectful.
Yes, there is some shovelware that is easily identifiable as cash grabs, especially in the mobile market, but these are the exception rather than the rule.
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Well i agree, i myself love games and even tried to do them, but i fail to have the patience needed. And i don't try to sell my terrible barely functional prototypes, but they do, cause they want their time and work to be paid, and receive the expected consequences, mostly overreacted though. Anyway in the end it's money that makes shitty games to be released.
Or the developers really thought that their Bad Rats or something equally bad is actually pretty good, then i don't know what to say... sorry for them that their dreams were crushed by reality, maybe it's a good move to have open beta so they know that it isn't that great or it's too early to release the game. After all if it's bad on release for some reason but fixed after then it's already lost a huge portion of potential playerbase because of the first expression it made.
I'm thinking too much about the problem that will never go away.
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I don't care where the article is hosted and I agree with his statements. Go to game forums, Steam forums, review sites, etc., for most AAA games and any unpolished indie game, and you see so much vitriol from douchebag idiots that it drowns out constructive discussion about the games. They do make comments like "go kill yourself", hyperbole like "this is the worst game ever created", and then gang up with other haters for giant circle-jerks and witchhunts that are often unwarranted.
It's okay to not be satisfied with a product, but be less of a jackass in how you go about expressing your displeasure.
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I also think that a community's reaction to these unsavoury elements plays a big part in how bad they get.
For instance, APB (both versions) is the worst community I've ever been part of. Granted, the game is strictly PvP oriented and despite it's entertainment value, the underpinning mechanics generate a lot of frustration even in lucid, chill people. Smack talk has to be expected, but when an entire community runs on the old memetic-cruelty garbage of spouting as many slanders and taunts per second as they can manage? It has a certain effect. If the only time people chime in is to try their hardest to offend people or ruin conversation with judgemental juvenile crap, and nobody ever calls folks out for being outlandishly douchey, it just becomes the norm, and in that little enclosed space people get desensitised to it. Every community has it's bad apples, but it gets to be a problem when they're the majority. It has a weird kind of avalanche effect that causes chill people to stop socialising and the rotten element to spread.
Whereas Champions Online is perhaps the best community I've been part of, which coming from an MMO that's saying something. Even when there were arguments or baiters in the global chat, most people kept a certain sense of humour. When things got bad, there would nearly always be an equal number of people flatly calling it as they see it, without trying to just twist the knife or provoke the fight to last longer. The effect was that while there were still occasional explosions of micro-drama, the general environment was pretty awesome to be in, and any exceptionally bad people would be denounced and generally shunned until they calmed down.
I just think there is something to the entire "passively condoning" thing.
We can't possibly provide a 1-to-1 ratio of calm counters to every angry brat's insult and threat, nor can we ever hope to provide a total detox to internet creepers or a consistent global ban of hackers/cheaters, but maybe if we stopped piling the canned venom on the 'victims', the random developers getting death-threats for balancing patches, the random kid/woman who dared to use voice-chat, the team that actually noticed consistent and recordable snapping in the dude with a 100:1 K:D, then maybe people would stop taking Sturgeon's Law so literally when it comes to gaming communities.
Hell, even if a developer makes genuinely bad games it doesn't warrant some of the uncool crap being flung at them. Yeah, maybe someone does sound like a muppet on helium, but unless they're being obnoxious or spamming, why give a young gamer crap?
Some people need to just get a grip.
And me, I need to learn to trim my posts down, goddamn :P
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It's frightening how often I agree with you lately.
I work in an industry where there are these elements too.
There are two things that are different in my industry, primarily.
Lack of anonymity. At some point, you will face others in person.
Price point. The lower it is, the more you encounter unfiltered vitriol, ignorant commentary, unreasonable expectations, and entitlement mentality (with the product itself, not service - I find the inverse to be true on the latter as price point increases)
This is not to say that there aren't idiots of every stripe, but the more barriers, the less sewage flows downhill.
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Why i can't hate shitty games? This is probably one of those greedy and lazy indie devs who make buggy shitty games and cries when no one buys it. These days there are plenty of shitty indie and AAA games, indie games probably sucks more. People are paying money for those games and when they get unfinished, buggy, shitty product they get angry. Great example is infestation(warZ).
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You have a negative opinion about something, yeah... so? Everyone does and we aren't going to like everything. But hating is a complete different case. Flash news, there's nothing wrong with disliking something, no matter what it is, but taking it to the extreme is idiotic.
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Great. You prove yourself the jerk as such described by the article.
Nobody is telling you not to hate a game if its unfinished or is lacking, but making immature threats or declarations of how these suck without actually having a point to back up your statement, is purely dick-headed.
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Wait...there more buggy experience i have was more for AAA games then indie games, and indie have more reason´s to have it, if you rhink a little(small budget=less employer=less testing=more patching in the future... And normally they fix a lot of thing´s aand are pretty active in the process with fix...The only problem can be with "exported" indie games like the doujin games).
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Please? Please repeat your "AAA games have some standards" while you look yourself in the mirror. They have no morals no standards at all! Yeah there might be a few games that actually deserve the money and the publicity they are getting but the standards of the "AAA" titles has been going down the drain for years. It's always the same thing over and over again nothing new, they focus on the "graphical and online" aspects of the the game not ever thinking about gameplay (yet again I am not saying everyone but i'd be willing to say 80% of the AAA games) it's no fun anymore. Why are people buying indie games even if you say they "SUCK" because they are fun and different in so many ways that a lot of people can enjoy them but hey that's my opinion and everyone can have their own opinion.
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So you say it's 80%. And i say that 90% of indie game is garbage :D
Just look at all those indie bundles. Yes there are good indie games too, you can see i'm not against indie games by looking at my steam profile. But i love AAA games too.
There's much more shitty indie games out there.
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Yeah everyone likes different stuff and i'd say it's the way around and I would not look at those indie bundles for great indie games sure there are some, but I don't like most of them but some people do it's just a personal preference. I was not against you or anything as I said everybody has a right to his own opinion even though the internet seems to just like and stick to one opinion and yeah I can't deny I had some fun with some AAA games but what I see now is mostly just garbage for me, thus I really enjoy indie games and would stick up for them a 100%. And yeah I agree there are some shitty games out there but not only indie games that's the focus here it's also AAA but hey who am I to judge? There are indie games and AAA games made of hard work, sweat and tears, but you can also smell those games that are made fast and are there just to get money and that what I am against and to be honest I see more of that stuff in AAA and I am even more sad that people complain about it then buy it and complain about it even more which ever the game that might be.
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Well I share your opinion on indie games,they look and feel like they were made in the 80`s and couple of years ago were simply freeware but there is a solution,I just dont buy indie games.Theres no need for me,nor any1 else to go psycho,cause one really needs to have some sort of brain dmg or mental disease to say or write things that "gamers" do.
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I'm not one of those psychos, i'm not creating accounts just to bash some game. But if i have my opinion about the game i say it. If the game sucks i have the right to say it.
But of course people do not notice the good things gamers say when they're praising the games they like.
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Yeah man ofcourse,you have all right to your opinions as every1 else,I assumed the difference between saying thta shitty game is shitty and murdering some1`s family or wishing cancer is obvious ;)
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Funny this should be posted om Kotaku, since they're often among the first to fan the flames of any shitstorm with their blatant clickbaiting articles.
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The internet is an agressive place, oh my, such news.
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Because someoene think that his opinions matter, they have a hate for someone that OMG they like indies/AAA, his life is a mess and he need to relief stress(being and asshole is one form), because this medium is full of inmature people that don´t have any idea of how something creative is maked in any form, we live in a generation we want everthing fast, efficient and perfect,[Insert new reason]...And the list go, and go.....
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The rise of capitalism is destroying quality control, because gamers would rather bitch anonymously online instead of voicing with their wallet. Community is the antidote to corporate formulaics, but a community infected with negativity will remain stagnant.
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Console gaming did that, they mindlessly open their wallets.
Recall COD 4? Free extra maps,, but also players were free to modify the game and create some awesome custom content. On the other hand, the DLC for the console was sold, they made some 10-15 millions extra in the first couple of days, if not hours.
After that, everything went downhill.
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Cool story, bro! Welcome to the internet.
P.S No, really. Cool story, I agree, but after spending years on internet, you learn to filter out the bad stuff and/or laugh at the stupidity of other people. If you don't, you won't enjoy your time here.
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if the author can't take a little criticism of a product without deciding its a personal attack on him as some random coder nobody even knows exists maybe he shouldn't read any reviews ever...
or if this hide-less annon must read and take to heart everything on the internet then should try and make sure he doesn't have any bugs to complain about(deserved apparently? he mentions bugs) in a "finished" product(his part of it anyway) in the first place and/or grow some skin(both would be nice).
so it can't be perfect, true but its odd somehow older games never seem to have quite the same degree of broken in them when they couldn't just say "we'll fix it later" and let quality control slip cough bethesda broken main quest
and if they're not as polite about telling you it sucks as they could be, its internet. deal.
(People on the internet are dicks and go overboard(Fish for example never deserved 110th of the hate,( PCs are for spreadsheets, what the gaming master race can't take their own ribbing? Only allowed to make fun of consoles Fish must die?)) but control what's in your own power to change, their ability to get a snowball rolling by making sure your game doesn't suck and just ignore the rest. the hyperbole is obvious and the insults and deathwishes("threats") are so childish its easy to know what to ignore)
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The problem...is what the "community think is a bug. Or a "bad Design"(i laugh that combination of words), or a "poor balanced game"... And the really good level of "pattience" that gamer´s have, and sometimes who are the "most blatant" critic, even make a Bug ticket...
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"Your game is unfinished,there`s plenty of bugs in it in a word in this stage its shiet you should work on it" - Thats criticism.
"I/We wont buy a single copy of your games untill you will start doing proper testing before release" - Thats powerfull boycott.
"I hope the idiot people who made this just kill themselves after they kill their family" - Thats a threat form a sociopat,maybe psychopat who should seek professional help.
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In other news, boys have wieners and girls have vaginas.
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Reminded me of all the ( sometimes unjustified ) hate that has been thrown at games like CoD or Battlefield because of the community or because of some small faulty game mechanics.
Sometimes the negative feedback is justified. For example, paying 110 euros for Battlefield 4 + Premium package ( 170 euros if you add the Digital Deluxe ) for a game that will constantly crash in its first months from launch will drive you crazy.
On the opposite end, hating some title like CoD for its community is completely stupid. You do not value a game by the people who play it, but by the ammount of time it keeps you hooked playing it and enjoying it at the same time.
( I do apologise if I mistaken something or my arguments don't make complete sense. I'm a bit hungover. ) Happy gaming !
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yeah true but imo CoD and BF series are now just being milked out... Played every game from the CoD til BO 2 and after that I said to myself that I never again should buy any games from them. But otherwise I completely agree with you.
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With a game like CoD because the single player tends to be underwhelming the main value is in multiplayer. So if the community sucks that brings down what the major draw of the game is. So crappy community does mean something when multiplayer is one of the biggest draws of the game.
Though with CoD a part of it is the publisher's fault. Activision doesn't seem to care to support games once released and is moving on to making their next project to bring in big bucks. A big part of CoD having a crappy community is that nothing is done about cheaters and when multiplayer is a big draw for the game and it's hard to get a match with an honest player that ruins a lot of the fun.
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Well, that is what happens when 12 year old play R games and write a "review"
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not read the article, mostly because it's Kotaku...
however, game devs get alot of hate because they seem to actually care MORE about the money than the game and gamers who enjoy gaming.
you know, I miss the good ol' days when Game Developers were actually gamers themselves and thought more about the game & community rather than the money.
now add censorship, deletion of criticsm into the mix, Online DRM, Microtransactions for every single small thing among many other hated mechanics into the equation and there you have the hate.
If game devs don't want to listen and disrespect us, why should we bother to respect them and toss money at them?
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It's the fact that any given article could be by Patricia for me. :( The other writers are okay. Not great, sometimes really stupid, but okay. But my god, literally everythng Patricia has ever written...
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People get pissed off at Kotaku for posting articles that have opinions in them. Because on the internet, everyone needs to have the same opinion as you otherwise they're huge assholes who are probably just trolling you anyway.
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Maybe, but it could also be do to the fact that its a self reported game news site that should report facts and not opinion, except where acceptable like an opinion piece? Just like Fox News over in the states where they self proclaim to be the only source of truth and justice but are nothing but opinion fluff. I dont care one way or another about kotaku so this is all my opinion.
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Fox News isn't bad simply because they have opinions, they're bad because they're evil sick fucks who push a religious agenda through bullying, slander and misrepresentation of the facts.
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IMO you have to be a complete moron to go there voluntarily and take anything written there seriously. It is The Daily Mail of gaming journalism
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Notice the difference between individual persons working for a development company, the dev itself, and producers.
I'd argue that the people making the game care about how well it's made, they just have to give into the interests of their stockholders... and then their producers. DRM? Encouraged by producers. Micro-transactions? Obligation to stockholders. It's quite sad that these AAA titles are required to be this way but it doesn't mean that the people working for a company should get the hate from these problems.
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I had a good article about this very hing but unfortunately it's not on penny arcade and it's not cached on google anymore :(
(Article was called "Swimming in a sea of shit: Phil Fish and the Internet’s war against creatives" if you want to try and search for it.)
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Reminds me of day one: garry's incident. Some developers deserve hate and ridicule lol.
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Idealize much. Guy doesn't seem to understand that if product sucks (and no matter how much he might deny it game is a product not an art) people will say that it sucks (if they didn't we would be flooded by trash by "poor" devs who would not be discouraged from producing crappy "games"). Haters are everywhere and for everything, does it mean that everything suck or maybe it's just because (warning, crazy idea here) people like different things so you can't make something everyone would like?
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I didn't say they can't be both, in fact the mix of the two is rather fun thing to play. Sadly some devs give up on proper gameplay mechanics and justify themselves as making "art" or what not (what can be a silly answer when some of the creations can't be even considered that much)
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Here's why I don't give a shit about game developers.
1: It's easy to get into. No, it's not easy to design and create the perfect game. I get that. But anyone with a computer can learn, and try. Not everyone can do it well... but anyone can do it. Infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters, Shakespeare.
2: Games don't have to be perfect to be entertaining. Even if you do happen to scare off the next Edmund McMillen, who cares? All the gaming industry REALLY needs is someone who can code a mostly bug-free game and is willing to listen to the right opinions and we likely get a great game, or at least a pretty good one.
3: You're a fucking entertainer. We don't need games at all. No one's going to die if they can't play their PS4. Same goes for any "artist" profession. The world can live without you. You want people to care about you? Make them need you. You want people to need you? Stop making video games. Go be a doctor or something.
Granted, I am not one of those "haters" who tells devs to go kill themselves, or even thinks they should do such (though I certainly believe "You suck, stop making games" is fair criticism). I just hate when "artists" spout off this, "Wah wah look at me I'm a person" nonsense as if we're supposed to give a damn about them beyond the product they put out. Show me that you can make great games and MAYBE I'll say, "No, please don't!" when you threaten to leave the industry. Maybe I won't (looking at you, Mr. Fish). But UNTIL then, I don't care.
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I thought this deserved to be read.
Clicky.
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