TL;DR – What is your reasoning for blacklisting people and what is your opinion on blacklisting someone for their posts? Do you think "excessive blacklisting" is a problem, or whether there is such a thing as an "unjustified blacklisting," and how do you think this impacts the community? What could be done to fix this issue besides removing blacklists or enforcing rules which prohibit unjustified blacklisting?


I'm initiating this discussion after seeing multiple frivolous and unwarranted blacklistings occur. Even I have been blacklisted without justifiable cause (I won't name names, but you know who you are), and I've come across a number of times wherein I cannot view the giveaway due to being blacklisted by the contributor, despite how I don't recall ever encountering or interacting with that person in my life. It appears to me that many people are abusing the blacklisting system, which is really only intended for rule breakers and those who share puzzle answers, by blacklisting anyone and everyone who doesn't completely flatter them. I'll probably be blacklisted for this very thread, and it's a concerning thought.

This is ultimately a giveaway site and blacklisting seriously restricts the user's ability to use it. The site has a forum, but I feel discussion and conversation is being stifled out of fear of being blacklisted for anything one might say. I usually voice my opinions and speak my mind even at the risk of negative consequences, yet even I have given a second thought to posting even the most innocuous of things out of fear that I'll be blacklisted from giveaways for it. Is this the sort of community we wish to foster? One in which users are afraid to converse due to idiots who treat blacklisting as the same as blocking, while only really restricting their chances to enter into certain giveaways? Even once blacklisted, you can still see the user's posts, so why are people blacklisting based on posts? What is the rationale?

Feel free to weigh in and voice your opinion below. For what it's worth, I won't blacklist you regardless of how much I disagree with your post. I encourage discussion, not stifle it.


Important Update (February 3, 2015)

This thread has sparked a lot of debate (which is a good thing!), but has also led to some rather distasteful arguments between users (which is a bad thing), and I'm guilty of this as well. Although it may be wise to lock this thread in order to prevent more conflict, and so that I don't get blacklisted even more than I probably have by now, I've made the decision to keep this thread open in order to provide a place of discourse about the topic of blacklisting for the SteamGifts community.

I will continue to monitor this thread and do my best to respond to everyone over time, though I'll be posting less frequently from hereon out. For those of you who'd rather not sift through all the shit and spats below, here is a highlight of notable posts and comment chains throughout the thread:

(This list is by no means exhaustive and there were many worthwhile contributions throughout. This list simply summarizes notable exchanges in this thread that incoming users may wish to peruse. For those of you who'd like to see the full range of opinions and arguments, feel free to scroll down and read them all below.)

Other notable posts: EViLiSLuRKiNG, Pizzaice, omnitau, Zomby2D, Lifedreamer, TheCyberDruid, Sinovera, nlspeed911, GauRocks, Rhahael, jbondguy007, Thexder, naps420, Aquillion, ZooZoV, SSteve, RedCoats, Jekaterina

Thank you to everyone who's participated! The above lists may be updated as more posts are made.


Changelog:

  • February 27, 2015 – Thread moved from "Off-Topic" to "General."
9 years ago*

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Do you blacklist people?

View Results
Yes, anyone I want. Blacklisted.
Yes, anyone who offends me or posts something I don't like.
Yes, but only those who are known scammers, cheaters, and regifters, or who deliberately breaks the rules.
No, though I may in the future.
No, and I don't plan to.
There are blacklists?

OP won't rest until every single user here has a CHANCE...

...to blacklist him.

View attached image.
9 years ago
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I love that one, especially how the eye starts whipping around.

9 years ago
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I won't rest until this issue has been fully examined and explored. Perhaps if people applied themselves, progress might be made.

9 years ago
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What do you even mean? Besides expounding on tired arguments, that is.

9 years ago
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I gave up on him and if everybody else will move on he might actually stop. Then again, he might not...

9 years ago
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Why give up on me? You act as if I'm some obstinate bigot who's unwilling to budge, when I have reformed my views throughout this entire thread as a result of the discussions therein. I may be rigorous and relentless, but that does not mean I will defend something I know to be wrong.

9 years ago
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If people took this issue more seriously, examined the issue and at least read the highlighted posts and discussions I mentioned in my update, and gave some considerable thought to it all before responding, perhaps some progress could be made. At this time, people seem bent on stating their opinion based on the original post I made (which is understandable, but unfortunately not helpful), ignoring the updates and discussions below, and express their opinions without even searching to see if the points they make have already been made and discussed. That is the origin of the circular argumentation that's occurring lately: people are stating their opinions and contributing nothing to the thread that hasn't already been discussed. Rather than participating in the discussion themselves, they are adding to it by voicing their own views irrespective of the overall picture.

By progress, I mean that some better understanding of the blacklisting system and its place in the community can be made. Perhaps we can better understand what constitutes justified or appropriate blacklisting, and what is considered an abuse of the system. Maybe we can reconciles the various sides and come to a common agreement so that concerted action can be made. Instead, however, no progress is being made because nobody is putting in any effort. They'd rather add to the quantity of voices in this thread than contribute to the quality of the discussion itself.

No progress can be made if nobody applies themselves and treats this issue more seriously and thoughtfully.

9 years ago
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The reason that people don't take this "seriously" is because they simply don't agree with you. You want to fix something that's working perfectly fine and doesn't need fixing.

  1. There is no such thing as unjustified or inappropriate blacklisting. Anyone should be free to blacklist anyone else for whatever reason they see fit. It's not up to you or anyone else to judge what is a valid reason for me to add anyone to my blacklist. They are the ones spending the money to give something and they should be free to filter out anyone they don't want to give their game to. Just like on the old site, they can add you because you broke a rule, because you insulted their mother, because they don't like your name or avatar, or because they got drunk and decided to blacklist every second person they saw on that particular night. Any reason is valid and what is a good or bad reason will vastly differ from one person to the next.

  2. Having blacklists apply to public giveaways is actually a good thing. It brings people out from private giveaways to offer their games to a larger audience. A lot of people stuck with private giveaways because they couldn't use their blacklist on public ones for the technical challenge that it posed. Whether you don't see the giveaway on the list because it's hidden from you by the blacklist, or because it's private, it won't make you any more able to join.

  3. With 749,266 users and a 1,000 entries limit in the blacklist, you can't block more than 0.1% of the user base. The impact is negligible. (Unless you're the stubborn guy making this kind of thread and beating the dead horse until everyone has enough and decides to put you on their own blacklists) Even if I were to fill out my blacklist completely, 99.9% of Steamgifts users could still join my giveaways. (Assuming I don't put any more filters, like a minimum of level 2)

  4. Having the blacklist work both way (preventing someone who blacklisted me from entering any of my giveaway) could be a good thing for some, but personally I don't care if anyone who blacklisted me enter any of my giveaways. And, honestly, if you want to enter a giveaway from someone you blacklisted, all you need to do is remove the person from your blacklist, join the giveaway, and add him back. This can be done with 3 mouse clicks.

9 years ago
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I've highlighted many posts in my OP update that I didn't agree with precisely because they took the issue seriously and provided some rational argumentation supporting their views. Just because I don't agree with a particular view or post, that doesn't mean I don't consider it a serious post. By "not taking things seriously" I mean many people are unwilling to take the time to construct a serious and thorough post that doesn't reiterate previous posts or arguments. Many just post their opinion and leave, adding to the quantity—but not the quality—of discussions in this thread. For example, I consider your post above to be a serious and constructive contribution to this thread because it analyzes the issue in-depth and provides clear reasoning as to why you hold the position you do, all the while attempting to refute mine. I don't agree with it, but I can nonetheless respect it as a serious contribution.

I don't think the blacklist system is "working perfectly fine and doesn't need fixing." There have been a number of issues about the system itself which demand fixing or tweaking, and potentially many more regarding how the system is treated by the community. The system itself is seriously flawed, though that is only one component of my arguments. The more exigent concern is surrounding how blacklisting is treated by the community and what constitutes as appropriate blacklisting behavior. Now, onto your numbered points:

  1. I believe there is such a thing as unjustified or inappropriate blacklisting. Do you seriously believe blacklisting someone based on their profile avatar, or name, or sex, or nationality is appropriate? If not, then what about blacklisting someone based on their beliefs or views, assuming those beliefs or views are themselves not discriminatory and harmful? If not, then what about blacklisting someone based on their activities which are not directly (or even tangentially) related to your giveaways? There are multiple layers to this issue and I'm trying to examine and explore all of them in rigorous detail.
    • I would call into question the policies of SGv1 regarding blacklisting as well, though I should note that I support the old system over the new system on multiple points.
    • I don't believe a bad reason should be as valid a reason as a good reason, or even valid at all. That is the crux of what I consider abuse: if there is not adequate reason to blacklist a user, then blacklisting that user constitutes abuse.
    • You claim that what qualifies as reason may differ from person to person, but this is only because there are no commonly accepted terms of fair and appropriate use for blacklisting. Since there is no established policy for acceptable blacklisting behavior, anything is considered appropriate.
    • I argue that there should be some standard of acceptable use, and likewise some understanding of what constitutes unacceptable use (i.e., abuse), of the blacklisting system. This isn't a matter of mere subjectivity, but rather one of community responsibility.
  2. That is why I'm hesitant to recommend that blacklisting should only apply to private giveaways.
    • I believe that if the blacklisting system is changed to apply to all giveaways (as it now does), however, some changes in blacklisting behavior should follow to complement these changes in the functionality of the system.
    • At this time, the blacklisting system is still treated in much the same way as it was before, if not amplified, and this poses serious concerns upon the community.
    • The blacklisting system no longer operates as a means by which special rules can be enforced and certain users could be restricted from private giveaways; it now operates as a way of restricting users from applying to all giveaways by a contributor. This change in the impact that blacklisting a user has should therefore follow a change in blacklisting behavior, namely one which is less aggressive and which has some standards for acceptable use.
    • The old system was already unfair to entrants because there was no standard of acceptable use; however, it was overlooked because it did not impact the entire community, only a small portion of it. Now that the impact has changed, the issue becomes all the more exigent.
    • At least if the giveaway is private, I have the opportunity to join if I know how to, have the link, solve the puzzle, or am given clearance to enter. If I am blacklisted, however, I cannot access or enter into the giveaway because I have been specifically restricted. Since I was pinpointed, there should be valid justification for this. Unlike private giveaways, which exclude in much the same way as do whitelist giveaways (i.e., they exclude based on a general set of criteria), blacklisting excludes specific users.
    • Blacklisting users when it only applied to private giveaways was fairer because it only affected those giveaways which had special rules and were restricted to a limited number of users. It's unfair for a public giveaway to hold similar restrictions and even if such a change were to force more giveaways to be private, even that would be an improvement over abusive blacklisting.
  3. How many of those users are contributors? How many are serial contributors? How many are major contributors? The total userbase comprises a majority of users who either give away only a few or no giveaways whatsoever (some of whom aren't even active in the community) and a minority of repeat contributors.
    • Many of those who fall into the latter category are also regular and active members of the community, in particular the SteamGifts forums. Thus, the impact is much more significant if one considers who is doing the blacklisting. Even with only 1,000 spots on any single blacklist, that is more than enough to make a significant impact when considering how many of that three-fourths of a million users actually participate in the community and on a regular basis.
  4. You may not personally mind it, but others might, including myself.
    • Why should it be appropriate for a user to blacklist another and still have access to the blacklisted user's giveaways? Not only does it seem logically contradictory, but it seems hypocritical as well.
    • Anyway, the suggestion is to establish some sense of fairness between blacklisters and the blacklisted, since anyone who blacklists another should do so at the sacrifice of being able to enter the blacklisted user's giveaways. Otherwise, it's unfair and favors the blacklister for no particular reason, which is doubly unfair when one considers that the reason for blacklisting may have been unjust or itself unfair or arbitrary.
    • In order to combat a circumvention of the system, whenever someone is blacklisted, all entries in the blacklisted user's giveaways by the blacklister will be automatically removed. This seems like the logical corollary for blacklisting bidirectionality, if only to curb potential abuse of the system.

Thanks for your contribution and hopefully this discussion continues, though it's fine if it does not. Happy SteamGifts Birthday, by the way!

9 years ago*
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View attached image.
9 years ago
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Your point? Or are you just, like, shitposting, man?

9 years ago
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  1. Yes, I do believe that anyone should be free to blacklist people for any number of suggestive reason they see fit.
    • The only difference between the old SGv1 system and the new one is that this one doesn't require a support member to process the reroll. That was also the only reason it didn't apply to public giveaways because it would have been too much job to enforce.
    • The blacklist is nothing but an extra filter. If I wanted to, I could make all my giveaways level 2+ just so you couldn't enter. The only difference is I would be affecting a lot more people. The use of a blacklist instead makes the impact negligible on the community as a whole.
    • There is no way to enforce any kind of standard on what constitute a valid reason anyway. If I decide to blacklist 10 people, who will audit my choices and decide if my reasons were justified or not? Do you really think the volunteers in support who already have no time to handle the current flow of tickets will have the time to look at thousands of blacklists and try to decide if each and every entry has a valid reason for being there?
  2. The fact that blacklists do apply to public giveaways do not impact the whole community, they impact the blacklisted people and only them. If I have 5 people on my blacklist, it means that out of hundreds of thousands of users, 5 people would not see my giveaway on the main page, the same way they would not have seen it if I had made a group or whitelist giveaway.
    • The only time you would see that you are blacklisted would be by accessing a private giveaway from the link or by trying to reach a public giveaway directly from my profile.
    • The fact that people are moving more of their giveaways to the public place only has a positive impact on the community because it means more people can join these giveaways.
  3. Who cares how many of them are contributors. The contributor is the one making the blacklist. The hundreds of thousands of other users are the ones who could potentially enter to win the game.
    • It doesn't matter in a any way or form if a vast majority of these users do not contribute. The point was that they now have a chance at winning more games so it's a good thing for the community as a whole.
  4. What if someone decided to blacklist me because they feel that since I own almost 3k games on Steam and gave away 200+ games here, they'd rather their games go to someone who has a harder time affording some games? I have nothing against that person and this would be as valid a reason as any to blacklist me. Why should that person be prevented to enter any giveaway I've put up?
    • How about people who make blacklist events like jatan did recently? (7 days of giveaways, you get blacklisted when you enter one so you can't enter any more of his giveaways for the remainder of the event) Should he be prevented to enter any of my giveaway (especially since he's on my whitelist) because I chose to enter his event? Should he be kicked from my active giveaways for trying to do something nice?
9 years ago
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"... or because they got drunk and decided to blacklist every second person they saw on that particular night."

My God, stop it already. I told you it was a mistake and I wouldn't do it again. Why must you continue to bring this up???

9 years ago
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Did that actually happen? Honestly, I was just making up possible reasons why someone would blacklist others.

9 years ago
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Right ... and then next time you'll start revealing my dark days when I started blacklisting users with screen names in which "i" did not come before "e".

9 years ago
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No, I won't talk about that one, Your secret is safe. (Just like I never told anyone about the time you blacklisted everyone who had green avatars)

9 years ago
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+1000 :)

9 years ago
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I was blacklisted for not making an account with what looked like a referral link (saying I couldn't as a passing comment and not entering the giveaway) on some music streaming site that wasn't available in my country.... fun times.

9 years ago
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I was blacklisted for arguing about that dress if it's blue and black or white and gold lol, since I saw it White and Gold, and the other user Black and Blue, and we didn't agree, just ultra lel.

9 years ago
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Really? I know I've been arguing that many blacklistings are frivolous, but this seems almost too absurd. Could you cite where this occurred in particular?

9 years ago
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http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/p8htt/what-colour-is-the-dress/search?page=2 I'm not angry, but I just think its a poor reason, the blacklist is supposed to be used in another way :/

9 years ago
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And you know for a fact that he blacklisted you and he wasn't just pulling your chain? I see a lot of people throwing the blacklist threat around.

9 years ago
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Well idk, at least I wasn't taking it angy.

9 years ago
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Technically, one could check whether he or she has been blacklisted by another user by going to their profile and clicking on any giveaway which is not "Invite Only" or "Whitelist Only". Even on giveaways for Contributor Levels above yours, it will tell you that you cannot access the giveaway because you have been blacklisted by the giveaway creator. (If there are no giveaways which can be used to check, though, then there's no way of telling.)

That's how I found out about a number of instances wherein I was blacklisted, even when the user didn't tell me he or she was blacklisting me. Oftentimes, it's one of my interlocutors after a rather schismatic argument, though sometimes it'd be a random user.

EDIT (March 01, 2015): Even on whitelist-only giveaways, you can still check.

9 years ago*
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Yeah, I started that discussion with "crappy monitor", but still the point of that thread is arguing about what color you see.

9 years ago
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I'm assuming it's this comment chain and subsequent posts therein? Sorry to hear that, but yeah that sucks. I agree that the blacklisting system shouldn't be used in such a way, though. You may find the rest of the thread interesting; feel free to join in wherever.

9 years ago
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lol :D It's an intresting question tbh. At first I did see the dress to be white and gold, scrolled down, read 3 lines of the article (It was a little hungarian article) then I thought "How the fuck can people see this as black and blue?" Scrolled up, and by that time it was black and blue for me as well :D So because of my own example I do know that it can be seen in any of the two way :)
Also, take a whitelisting, hopefully it will counterbalance the blacklist :)

9 years ago
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I feel you are too concerned for blacklists.. good luck.

9 years ago
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Is that a bad thing?

9 years ago
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Considering how much of a non-issue it is, it just seems petty to keep going on and on about his.

9 years ago
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Well, I'd consider it an issue and arguably more important than some others which are more widely accepted.

By the way, I'll reply to your post sometime tomorrow, when I get the chance.

9 years ago
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