BREXIT, good or nah

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Most people have no idea of how politics work nor do they want to be interested, they do as they are told on tv.

Most old people are just as ignorant as most if not more as the rest, they often have religious values keeping them from pursuing any further enlightenment, or they think they've learned enough and gave up on learning anything new based on their age. They've also had much more time to get indoctrinated and buy into propaganda. They are often less open to change and less likely to suffer the consequences of their actions. Old people are also nostalgic and have the whole rose-tinted glasses phenomenon going on.

Most generalizations are pointless, but I don't think old people know more about politics than the young or are capable of making better decisions. There is ignorance and stupidity on both sides, but the elder side is probably the easier one to manipulate (for example FOX news)....

in my experience, old people don't remember the past so much as that they remember an idealized version of the past.
And regardless of experience, people tend to become more conservative as they get older note: not talking about political conservative, as it's treated in the U.S., here I mean conservative as in being less open to change or to new ideas

Not saying that the past wasn't necessarily better, but, it probably wasn't as good as most people remember it to be

elderly people are quite easy to influence, nigel farage sits on t.v. and says scary foreginers will kill us all and they all vote leave

But logic would say the old people that have been around a while, know a bit more about politics, and whats best for the nation theyve lived in their entire life, than some fresh out of high school 18 year old.

Nope. The older you get, the more you hate any kind of change. Just to give you an example: an old person was given charge of education here. She spend most of her time around schools, teaching. You know what she did? Cut back the weekly lessons on IT and English, introduced theology, PE instead, and almost made LATIN the mandatory taught foreign language. Welcome to the fucking 19th century in 2012…
Old people have always been and will always be the biggest obstacles in any kind of progress, because people fear change, and the less they have left, the more they want their surroundings to remain the same. We will be like that in time too, and the young generations then will hate us as well for it, justly.

If you lived here you'd probably have a different view. I know all these angsty students struggling to look their parents in the eye sound adorably melodramatic but in this case at least they ain't wrong. It's hard to even describe, on a basic level we seem to be making all the right progressive steps, homophobia, sexism, even our terribly British issues with class are all receeding so quickly it's almost unbelievable, yet there's ridiculously keen low-level racism that permeates everything which happens here. Nothing complicated, just pure basic hatred.

There wasn't a single objectively sensible, well thought out argument presented by the leave side - it was a flat out racist campaign built on thirty years of vague institutional hostility towards nothing much in particular. That there are still some who find this disturbing is the most reassuring thing to come out of the whole mess.

Old people know more about politics... but less about politics of EU and the future. They know more about how the GB used to rule itself but they are too old to understand the necessary evolution of politics. They see how comes rules, norms and limittions from EU, How they want to replace currency they used to pay for their whole life with and all these negative things. It is same case as banks came with e-banking and credit cards - older people don´t understand it and dont trust to this system even if it can make their life better but they are to afraid to understand it. Young people use it naturally. Older people know more about old and outdated things and remember how it used to be - young people know more about things they life in right now. (current: politics, technology, art, culture, trends etc) But i have no chosen side about brexit. I just think it is wrong to leave but people have rights to say what they want and brexit is working democracy in nutshell. I am happy for those who want to leave and wish them best, but i am pity for those who wants otherwise. It is too hard to find the side. Thanks god it is not my country and my decision let alone future life with consequences of these choices.

Older people are generally wiser, but in this case it was more something like people with a lower instruction level (at least the majority of them, compared to the majority of the "remain" voters) who grew up during an economic boom just after WWII, who were triggered by the slogan "let's make UK great again" or something like that since right now we are in "depression" and anyway far distant from the boom of the 60s~70s.
Younger people grew up in a completely different economical and geopolitical world and have a better understanding of it. Just to be clear I'm talking about global world vs cold war world (were U.S.A., UK and France ruled the west).

i wont argue with the statement you said basically you are right but i want to point out a few things. To me when you say old and young its hard to accurate specify what age we talk about so lets say young are 18 to 40, 40 to 65 is middle age and 65 + is old the numbers are not by any means official just my opinion . Second thing i want to point out is that i saw a chart where it clearly showed that England decided for a brexit and yes was voted by a majority of 60+ people on the otherhand young people attedance was low and that is a bad move on their part. That is the reason they say in all these posts for old people i think but i think it would be fair if there was some blame to the people who didnt care to vote.

Now the second thing about old are wiser i cant agree completelly. I am 31 and i can do great mature conversations with older people and i always get a wiser answer i own a store its my job to develop relationship with my customers so they keep coming back and i agree people from an age between 40-60 prove they have been here a while and know a thing or two better but in the same time i find that a lot of people from around 60+ are too damn stuck in their ways sometimes they are completelly wrong ( an example sometimes vote for a faction in an election just cause they did their whole life even tho there have been scandals about that faction and the only reason they rise to power again is old people stuck in their ways voted for them, or a softer example everyone who wears an earing is a punk ....i wear an earing even tho i am a male cause i like it and i hear so often you are so mature and good young man why are you wearing an earring ) so i think there is a point in our life when we cross over from wisdom to stuck in our ways even tho they are wrong again and cant think straight, not all old peope are like that i can vouch for that but also i cna vouch its the majority from what i have seen

People in general have imperfect memories and, what's more, they can be easily manipulated by others. A perceived decrease in their welfare can be easily attributed to the EU and old people who still remember the glorious days of the British Empire are an easy prey for those messages. They now believe they can somehow go back to those days, but that's simply not going to happen.

The problem is that people are more likely to remember an idealized version of the past, rather than the actual past. It's also worth noting that Britain joined the EU in 1975, which is more than 40 years ago. To be able to have a real understanding of what it was like, those people would have to be at least 70 years old. ~and fuck, I'm half that age, and I can't even remember the '90s)

The older people also fought the wars that allowed the UK to still exist.

The problem is that it's impossible to know what state the UK would have been in now, if they hadn't joined the EU. So it's impossible to say if being in the EU has been good or bad.

Unemployment would have grown over 40 years even when they didn't join. EU-wide trade agreements (both within the EU and with the US, Canada, Asia, Africa, etc) may have benefitted the UK (though that's still speculation, as we don't know what agreements they would have made if they didn't join).

1) "Fairly split" is hardly accurate when 73% and 62% of the voters under 24 and between 25 and 34, respectively, wanted to remain in the EU. Of course there are millions of people that voted for 'Brexit' despite their young age, and viceversa, but the correlation is pretty clear - this is an obvious example of intergenerational breach. As for what old people decided... well, it sounds ugly, but the truth is that older people will not have to bear the consequences of their decision for many years...

2) Freedom to live, work or study anywhere in the EU, for instance? Freedom to vote for the EU parliament, whose legislative acts are going to have an impact on UK trade if the latter wants to keep its agreements? The irony here is that some claim that too many laws are created in the EU (which is not necessarily bad, actually), but now the UK will have absolutely no saying on them.

Bureaucrats are not elected anywhere. The European Parliament, which is the organism holding legislative power in the EU, is directly elected by European citizens. As for the other institutions, their representatives are all indirectly elected in some way or another.

Younger people tend to vote less because they move around a lot. This makes it harder to make sure they're registered, harder to make it to the polling place, etc. Voting from college is not as easy as walking to the same polling place you've used for the past 20 years and doing the same routine you've fallen into over that time period.

Technicly germany use UE for their own interes and there is not a secret that endgame is a one big state ruled from berlin. Thanks to brexit they had to start implementing it earlier so we may have a hope to stop it.

merkel is slightly Reichish

Well yeah okay 52%.

Usually polls don't change that much after, it's still 23-77.

What i was trying to say is regardless, i didn't expected so many to vote no.

"useless", like human rights, environmental treaties, common market, free travel, no customs, investment flow, legal harmonization, consumer benefits? And that "shitload" of money is about £120 a year per person, actually of all the EU countries UK is paying the lowest percentage of its GNI for the membership.

Lol I love your reaction and I'm sure I won't miss something I had no part of to begin with. Breathing is a natural thing my body does I do not need to KNOW how to breathe. I'll miss you too mate kisses. =p

100% correct! xD

Well, that sums it up quite nicely.

or preserving peace, or maintaining the common market, or allowing free movement of people, or creating uniform standards, or....

Well, that's the current course, and that's where the dissent comes from.
If that leads to the end of the EU as we know it, so be it. I personally just hope things change before then.
I'm all for the ideals the EU is based on, but not for the way those ideals are put into practice these days.

Why you would link Socalism and the EU in any way is beyond me.

The financial specialists of banks caused the whole worldwide crisis...
But hey, let's trust their word when it benefits our point of thinking right... the specialist have never been wrong, except for all those various times they've been horribly wrong (which is almost always)!

unfortunately, you picked a bad example, because it makes sense to say that the economy will recover when people spend more on consuming goods. The problem is that economics, like many other things, really shouldn't be reduced to just a simple sentence.

For a somewhat longer explanation:
When people buy more goods, the stores need to hire more people to sell the goods. Those stores buy the goods from factories, who need to hire more people to make the goods. The goods also need to be transported, so more drivers need to be hired to transport the goods. Those additional factory workers and drivers will now be earning a paycheck they weren't earning before, so they have more money, which they'll probably spend buying more goods.
So, yeah, the logic is fine. The question is, (a) how to get people to spend more consuming goods, (b) how to pay for that initial increase in spending / where will the money come from, (c) how much more should be spent on consuming goods (especially taking b into consideration), and (d) what's the overall effect.

Basic Keynesian economics, which is pretty much the foundation of all modern economics, is that during a recession the government should spend money to stimulate growth (and, equally important, that when the economy is doing well, that the government should pay back any loans they've taken out, and to build up a reserve). The problem is in figuring out how much the government should spend and figuring out the best way to spend it. The bigger problem is getting politicians to do the right thing, rather than what's popular or politically savvy.

Maybe there are some. But even if there aren't, why would someone support a broken system? If you wouldn't have any working clocks, would you stay with your broken clock just because it's the only one you have?

Fear is their weapon. You are too afraid for a change that you prefer to stay within the same broken system that make the poor people poorer and the rich people richer. UK has money. Rich people want to leave? Let them go to hell then! In Greece, most rich people don't pay their debts but they do not face any consequences for it. If that's happening in UK too, why do you want the rich people there anyway? Maybe the pros of them leaving are far greater than the cons?

I wonder how Europe had peace before the EU, when the EEG was still present, all was well... nobody goes to work with co-operation. You don't need some bureaucratic BS system to prevent war.

Infact I remember the EU bullshit started a war in Ukraine. 300 of my countrymen died due to that. Yes, some peace. Thanks, EU!

The UK left because of they think they are keeping the system up and pulling themselves down. look at the poorer countries in europe

They want to ensure people are 100% of their decision with REAL facts on the table, not bullshit propaganda both sides showed before the referendum. I mean seriously, every Leave leader is now backing on their claims made during the campaign. :)

Too many countries at differing stages of economic development in the EU. Difficult to find an appropriate balance. For businesses, it's good to be able to easily shift manufacturing off-shore. Benefits to people are less clear. Someone above mentioned free movement of labor. But really, anyone who is qualified for a job can get a work visa through the employer. It's more the low income segment where you'll see people from poorer countries moving to the wealthier nations, not the other way around.

Britain will be better off negotiating individual trade agreements. It will be a little more time consuming, but most countries have them, so it's nothing new. Frankly, I haven't seen compelling arguments as far as why being in the EU has been particularly good for the UK, or how it would have been beneficial moving forward.

A lot of people were worried about the amount of decisions made for us by unelected and unaccountable elements within the EU - especially trade deals. The majority of our exports go outside of the EU and many people felt we would be better making our own deals with growing economies while large areas of the EU seem to becoming increasingly stagnant. Quite aside from the proposed TTIP deal that could have been forced on us that many people were very worried about.

How it will all work out remains to be seen and anybody who claims to know how rich any of us will be in the future is talking crap.

Lack of control over immigration was a major issue but 17 million people didn't vote out just because of that. And not all of those were dumb enough to think that we won't still have to accept free movement in order to access the single market. Most of those had put at least some thought into the socio-economic consequences and assumed things would likely get worse in the short term, but felt it was worth a little pain and risk in the hope that things would be better in the future.

Beyond that austerity has left a lot of people here in shitty situations with little hope. Those people haven't had much say in general elections lately because politicians have written their areas off as never likely to vote for them and left them to rot. They were ready to vote for anything that offered change.

The UK is pretty good on political cooperation as it is. A government should put its people first -- but yes, ideally in the context of an interconnected global community. China, for example, is a case of a government that wants to succeed at the expense of other countries. The UK is nothing like that.

I generally think there is too much pressure on the US, UK and Germany to take positions that benefit the world at the expense of its own people. There is a balance, and some of the left-leaning political parties seem to forget this, which in turn has allowed the extreme right to flourish because they speak to an underlying concern that has been otherwise ignored.

I don't think anyone really believes or trusts the idiots in the UKIP, but the fact that they've gotten traction means that the UK government has not listened well enough and its citizens feel there is something fundamental that's been ignored.

Yes, I have left the country before and understand the governments of other countries do allow you to move in and out of them for periods of time dependant on your purpose there-absolute freedom of movement in Europe and the chance to call ourselves citizens of something bigger than our little island is what we lose. I'm not going to go on about how this is already affecting jobs and economy, because you seem to have made your mind up that this whole thing is a conspiracy, so please don't bother me with a reply.

that's not accurate. A visa is not the same as a work permit or a residency permit
Taking the EU out of the conversation for now, a visa is required to visit any country. But a lot of countries have agreements with each other that each others' citizens are automatically granted a 3-month visa upon arrival. Such a treaty exists between the US and The Netherlands. On the other hand, no such treaty exists between The Netherlands and Australia. If you want to visit Australia, you need to obtain a visa in advance; if you show up without one, you'll be turned away.

Citizens of members of the EU do not need a visa to visit another member country. However, when Britain leaves, their citizens will be required to obtain a visa to visit any country in the EU. I believe that the EU membership superceded any prior agreements, so Britain will need to negotiate, or more likely it will be part of the exit negotiations, some kind of visa reciprocity program. (which will probably happen, so in practice we won't notice any difference)

Great minds think alike, I suppose :)

John Oliver might not know the details, but those dozens of institutes that expressed the very same concerns certainly do. But you probably share the thoughts of Gove on experts?

If i remember correctly the reason brexit will (probably) cost more money to UK is because of 2 reasons:
1) UK is one of the founding EU member and has better deal then most other EU states for the EU market as such if EU feels spiteful it can be very harsh on the UK.
2) UK will be negotiating the deals against other countries, theoretically since they don't have the EU economy behind them their foreign influence should not be enough to get better deals then when they were in the EU.
While nobody knows how this will unfold, it will be most likely more expensive for the UK. The question is if those trade deals will be better than when they were in the EU.

Thread lost.

That is like no.1 rule on any gaming sites i've visited from my exp.But i am more of a lurker so maybe things have changed.

Because the UK was the primary proponent of pushing through TTIP regardless of how negotiations turned out.
Because the UK despite the public bluster actively defend the tax haven status of the Caymans.
Because the UK demanded special freedoms for the finanical markets in London at the expense of Frankfurt, Paris, etc and so on.
Because the UK were a constant roadblock to further integration at every step.
Because the UK is obsessed with withdrawing from the European convention on human rights cause our courts are special snowflakes who know better.
Because the UK's refusal to engage on tax coordination across the EU is one of the primary reasons Amazon, Google, etc. get away with playing fuck all tax.

That's just off the top of my tired head. It'll be a rough few years for everyone but once we're finally gone the rest of the EU won't miss us.