You think the brexit was a smart choice of the UK, please tell us why
If the EU was an actual free trade zone and not an unaccountable bureaucratic wannabe superstate that treats the populations and states within its domain more as subjects than as citizens, then it'd be the bees knees. But of course it isn't. Good on England and Wales for firmly demonstrating a desire to regain national sovereignty from Brussels and Berlin. Of course NI and Scotland heavily voted to stay, and I look forward to seeing a renewed push for Scotland's (and possibly NI's) independence. My reasoning is the same: emancipation from the dictates of a foreign power center is desirable as a matter of principle, whether it's from Brussels or from London.
I've seen shitlibs complain that people voted Leave out of racism, or xenophobia, etc. Whatever. The migrant crisis is certainly the biggest trigger for current euroskepticism. And certainly race and culture do play an integral part of the reasoning. But let me refer you to this paper. With this paper in mind, consider that ethnocentrism is not racism. Any more than loving one's family means hating anyone else's. Whoever voted for leave almost certainly did it because they love their country, not because they hate Muslims.
The migrant crisis only highlighted the EU's failure to serve the interests of native and naturalized Europeans. But this goes beyond immigration policy. Small businesses are choked by regulation and political favoritism. Democratic governments are subverted by unelected, elitist bureaucrats. Billions are wasted trying to prevent economic collapse due to the excesses of the Mediterranean members. Is all this really worth the freedom to freely travel and work abroad? Does it really matter that you can move freely above or below deck if the whole ship is sinking? What kind of future do you think you were robbed of?
"Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."
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I wonder what all the crying British kids would say when the EU sinks. I have a feeling I will experience it in my lifetime.
And I suspect they wont say thanks, assume all credit and all around show again how they're horrible human beings.
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These children complain that the elders apparently voted for 'their own' interests. That they 'robbed' the younger generations. Never mind that these elders are fathers, mothers, grandparents, aunts and uncles... No they just voted for themselves, without any concern of the future they'd leave behind for their own progeny. And the judgement of those with more experience, of those who have actual perspective because they didn't spend their entire lives under the EU thumb, is apparently invalid.
But what can one expect when state power is usurping the role of the parent in peoples' lives? When children are schooled by the state, when adults are provided for by the state, what else could result but indoctrinated acceptance of Big Brother? But here's the thing: Leviathan cannot build any value on its own, it can only appropriate it from others. Parasitism is it's nature. So is it any wonder that the stunted minds it rears can only think in terms of what they're 'entitled' to? That they imagine slights against them that need 'compensation'? That they project their own parasitical natures on those who actually build instead of leech?
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Well, for starters, Britain joined the EU 40 years ago; I don't know about you, but I can barely remember the '90s, so I certainly wouldn't trust someone to have an accurate memory of what it was like that long ago.
As for your argument that "adults are provided for by the state", well, the british welfare system has been around since the 1940's, so that's a spurious argument. The rest of what you're saying is just incoherent ramblings. Please try to explain what you mean
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What I meant was that the state is largely incapable of actually providing value on its own. It can only appropriate it from the populace and redistribute. The government doesn't build roads, construction companies do, paid for by taxpayers. The government doesn't provide medicine, doctors do, paid for by taxpayers. Government may provide welfare, but again it's paid for by taxpayers. Combined with a predilection towards corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency and other perverse incentives, as an institution government is far more often than not parasitic upon their host societies rather than a constructive pillar. So when children are schooled into this system, when many adults benefit or are outright dependent on the state's handouts, what kind of characters come out the other side? Those who create, or those who seek further handouts? I think it's pretty obvious that each successive generation is generally more pro-state, pro-intervention, pro-System than the last. And that this was reflected in the Brexit vote.
I'm a cynical anarchist bastard, if it wasn't obvious already.
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Well, if people aren't schooled, then you end up with a society of ignoramuses.
Personally I believe, and I think it's in-line with the majority of people, that some government is good, but too much government is bad.
For example, I'm very happy that the government provides for police and firemen. I do not think these functions should be privatized. I believe education is a good thing, and therefore the government should provide resources to educate those who otherwise would not receive one. I'm open to debate how these resources should be provided, or the best way to ensure these goals are met.
On the other hand, there are some services that the government provides that I don't think there's a need for, such as the arts. On the other hand, it gets a bit more questionable with, for example, promoting scientific endeavors, where I can see a valid argument for the government doing so, particularly those that may be too costly for private business to attempt. (but then, who decides which to pick and choose).
Then there are services the government provide that I believe are important, that can easily be done incorrectly, such as workplace and safety regulations - while I don't want childrens' toys covered in lead paint, there are plenty of regulations that I don't think have value, such as how, where I live, every business is required by law to have a poster up explaining child labor laws. (I can understand requiring the poster in any workplace that actually employs children; the vast majority of companies do not)
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"Well, if people aren't schooled, then you end up with a society of ignoramuses."
That much is obvious. What's also obvious is that private education tends to be better than public education. And what's not so obvious is that studies are finding homeschooling is a better alternative to public education. Let me refer you to The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto.
As for providing public services via private means, again may I refer you to The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman. Here's a good introductory video to the idea of privatized justice.
"I believe education is a good thing, and therefore the government should provide resources to educate those who otherwise would not receive one."
A cynic like myself would draw a distinction between schooling and education. And then draw a comparison with food. Food is more important than even education, so should that be a government service? How well did that work out previously? Meanwhile in America obesity is a more pressing concern than starvation, even when the governments tries to limit production.
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Well, I'm all for the government ensuring that nobody is starving. which, of course, is the exact opposite of Holodomor
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I just love that you used "bee's knees" and "shiblibs".
Also, I agree with your post below about older voters being parents. Not saying they did vote for the sake of their kids, but the argument otherwise has no foundation whatsoever.
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they are out of the football competition in the EU (nothing to do with the brexit but still :P)
I support the England squad but that was a plain disgrace... although I'm kind of happy for Iceland since they are the underdog/cinderella of the tournament, it will be quite an interesting match against France!
the GBP (Great Brittish Pound) has dropped from 1,50USD : 1GBP to 1,35USD : 1GBP
Now regarding the Brexit... why? Just WHY? I think it was plain stupid.
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Check this out: Petition EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum
Regret-xit: why some Brexit supporters wish they could take back their vote
It looks like more and more people are against brexit. Also there will be a problem with chosing Britain's new Prime Minister. As a result Britain may never trigger article 50 of of the Lisbon treaty. SOURCE
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Hmm, the Petition Committee has made this weaselly statement on the petition you referenced:
The Committee has decided to defer its decision on this petition until the Government Digital Service has done all it can to verify the signatures on the petition. We have already had to remove 77,000 fraudulent signatures. The Committee wishes to make clear that, although it may choose to schedule a debate on this petition in due course, it only has the power to schedule debates in Westminster Hall – the second debating chamber of the House of Commons. Debates in Westminster Hall do not have the power to change the law, and could not trigger a second referendum.
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I respect their choice...but those uk-pro-brexit-politicans with their "...but...but, we just wanted to bark a little bit, to get even more exceptions ...we never expected that we would win this referendum"-opinion....are anoying. Big mouth no eggs...they should just do their homework now!
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Anyone who knows basic Economics can understand that it can cause only good results to GBR. Everything else is a lie made by the Media and the dictatorship of the EU.
Just check the Latest yield of the "Ten year government bond spreads" of GBR. It is falling everyday ever since the British people voted to leave the EU. Yet no channel, no newspaper presented it! Why would the investors world wide want to invest to GBR now? Simply because by leaving the EU, they no longer have to obey to Maastricht's treaty with which every country has to maintain their debt lower than the 80% of their GDP in order to avoid getting into a Memorandum like Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus.
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I'm quite well-versed in economics, and I don't understand that "it can cause only good results to GBR"
I also want to point out that Britain was not a signatory of the Maastricht treaty and was never bound by it. (the Maastricht treaty is the one about the Euro, which Britain never joined)
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Glad to have threads like these
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They made their choice and we must respect that. The question was clear enough to believe they knew what they were doing but I think we could ask for more democracy if people were more responsible and didn't vote just to protest.
So now, what's the plan ?
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One thing for sure, their image has suffered a lot.
However, 52% isn't really a great majority, so I hope it won't cause conflicts within the population.
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Maybe if all the whiny millennials complaining about the leave win actually got off their asses and voted they could've remained. Instead they sit around saying shit like "people over 30 shouldn't be able to vote" or "old people don't know what's good for Europe and the UK".
Democracy won, get over it or get out.
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chunkymark providing comedic relief :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_tZijcQdg
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I wanted to migrate to UK after my college but brexit probably messed things up.
Well Ireland is not a bad place either :)
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The older generation saved Britain from degeneracy
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Brexit was a very bad decision for Great Britain from my point of view for the following reasons:
- Rating agencies will lower their rating for Great Britain
- Imported goods will get more expensive
- Some industry might wander off to other European countries (especially banking sector)
- Great Britain might turn into Small Britain if Scotland and Ireland start new independence referendums in order to stay in the EU
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Look at stock markets.
British Pounds took biggest hit.
Leaders of pro Brexit are silent.
Northern Ireland and Scotland very pissed.
They lost against Iceland. :p
They had already plenty privileges in the EU; now they don't want to be in it anymore but keep the privileges.
British citisen with Irish ancestors want to become Irish citisen; forms in the offices ran short. (Theoretically 6 million British citisen would have that option).
Anything more to say? ^^
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Cause stock markets never fluctuate heavily... well, that's true on saturday and sunday when they're closed.
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Yep, perfectly normal fluctuation that the GBP dropped 11+% in one day.
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Often economists will point to a decline and call it a catastrophe, when it could just be a correction. GBP could have been overvalued, much like how the Canadian dollar was. If anything it was far better this decline happen now rather than later when the whole EU economy tanks. It is not healthy. The fundamental problems that caused the 2008 crash still have not been addressed, and indeed have actually been exasperated since. Artificially low interest rates, poor control of debt, welfare spending that cannot be sustained. Better that the UK (and any other states that follow) leave early as to better sector off the damage to come.
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This wasn't a correction. This was a direct response to Brexit
for more detail: a lot of people/companies panicked and took their money out of england. It dropped too much, to $1.31, and the market correction is that it's going back up a little; right now it's about $1.34, and it may still go up a little bit more; A large part of the drop is that people are uncertain about the results of Brexit, and are wisely sitting on the sidelines, waiting to see what happens. A small part of the drop was panic selling, and that part is being corrected
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You are correct, of course. I should have focused on how the drop was likely just a knee-jerk speculative reaction instead of saying it could be a long-coming revaluation. Though shocks to a system do sometimes lead to proper corrections of misvalued goods.
But still, I think my point stands that economic decline does not necessarily mean real decline, only nominal. Alan Watts had some good things to say about this divorce between the real and the nominal, and if I find it I'll link it here. But basically, during the '08 crash, did farms/factories crumble to dust? Does the lack of jobs mean there is no work to be done?
Of course bad measurement is a problem, as any craftsman knows intimately. But it's not a reason to panic, nor a sign of doom.
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You're right, during the crash output decreased in reaction to a drop in demand. Which contradicts what you said in the other response to me.
Anyway, I'll agree with you that the drop in value is not related to a drop in production or a drop in demand. Part of it is knee-jerk, but a large part of it is uncertainty. Finance dislikes uncertainty, and for the non-gambling type (the vast majority of investors), it's better to pull out and sit on the sidelines until the dust has settled, then pour your money back in when things become more predictable.
So it's not really a prediction as to whether or not brexit is a good or bad thing so much as an indication that we don't really know what will happen.
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Dude did you just make a new account so you can't discuss this? Feels kinda weird seeing a new account suddenly making a political thread.
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He's probably worried about people blacklisting him for censorship reasons, opinions are dangerous on these forums sadly.
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It's likely in their best interest as a country for the long term, but we won't know that for a few years really, the short term, it's gonna hurt, bad. The EU, and pretty much all trading countries, including the US, will suffer a good bit of losses because of it, but it's their country, fuck everyone else. I wish our country would take a fuck everyone else policy again, it worked so much better.
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Prioritizing self interest does not mean "fuck everyone else". It's playing the Game as a Player, not as an unwitting Pawn. Cooperation and alliance remain viable, even dominant strategies.
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It does mean fuck everyone else, and it is the correct course of action. You aren't intentionally sabotaging others, but you are unconcerned with their problems. That's the way a nation should be. Alliances are still made in self interest, and are not at all for the sake of those other countries.
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"You aren't intentionally sabotaging others..."
Certainly.
"...but you are unconcerned with their problems."
Your neighbors' problems can become your problems if the neighbor succumbs to them. Just as an example, what if they were being invaded by the Mongols. Sometimes it pays off to invest in someone else in order to advance your own interests. That's the basis of employment, for one thing.
Lacking a bleeding heart doesn't mean lack of concern.
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You prove my point in your comment, sometimes it's best to invest in others for your sake. It's always about self interest.
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From what I've read, next step will be negotiations on an exit, and a full exit is assumed to take two years, so the short term implications may not be as disastrous as people are making it sound. Also, I would expect the government to start with the negotiation process on other trade agreements in the meantime, so it is possible that there won't be much of a drop off. Not arguing on that point so much as speculating.
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not assumed, required. Once Britain formally tells the EU they're leaving, exit will occur in 2 years (unless the remaining members unanimously agree to an extension)
Britain has not formally told the EU they're leaving. The pro-Brexit politicians are now saying they want to open negotiations before they do so, but the EU has stated they will not enter into any negotiations unless and until Britain formally tells them they're leaving (you need to trigger the exit provision before your can discuss the terms of the exit)
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The short term issues are already happening even before fully leaving. Hence the stock market decline.
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Stock markets fluctuate based on assumptions and knee-jerk reactions. Things will normalize soon enough.
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They fluctuate based on all sorts of things actually. This was likely a great deal of smart rich people pulling their money out of british based stocks.
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Every stock market around the world shrank, even those all the way in China, so it's not the impact on UK-based stock markets. It's share value across the world because of assumptions of economic impact on various businesses around the world rather than British businesses specifically.
This happened all within hours of the announcement of the referendum results. By that point (and still today) Britain's intentions aren't even clear. Even if Britain formally announces its intentions to withdraw, it will take a while to actually exit. In the meantime, nothing has actually changed. Hence, all based on assumptions and knee-jerk reactions.
EDIT: Just looking at NASDAQ and NYSE composites, the markets have already recovered a significant degree of market capitalization.
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As much as I agree with Brexit, that dude (along with Boris) is such a douche.
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As a Scot, I find considerable irony in the fact that the older Scots who voted to stay in the UK and leave the EU may ultimately find themselves part of the EU in an independent Scotland...
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England - the only country to leave EU twice in the week ;p
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Us leaving the EU was purely based on racism... I dont think I have ever felt so unpatriotic as I do now.... sad times
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not racism ....... people just wanted bad people outside of their country , that's it
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yep. And all those bad people happened to be from a different race. And everyone from that different race happened to be bad people.
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NO, they dont care if you are white ,black or asian , i think they wanted muslims out(for terrorism and and other stuff), gypsyes for begging , maybe polish and other nationalities people for " they took our jobs "bullshit , crime in generaly and soo on......(it has nothing to do with race ) .And maybe a little bit of Xenophobia .
EDIT : nice ... i was blacklisted by 2 people already
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you're right, that's not racism, just ethnic discrimination which is a synonym for racism
edit: me too
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i still dont understand how is that racism......
they wanted white people outsite the country too
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When you say they wanted to get rid of the gypsies for begging, that's racism (racism today doesn't just mean discriminating based on race, but also includes discriminating based on ethnicity).
If they just wanted to get rid of all foreigners, rather than specific classes of foreigners, then that's not racism but it would be xenophobia; but let's ignore that
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Bulgarians, romanians, albanians, poles and so on are not a different race, but foreigners with different ethnicities and cultures. That's xenophobia, not racism.
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xenophobia is a fear of foreigners. Ethnic racism relates to specific classes of foreigners. But let's not get into a fight over semantics. Whatever you call it, it's pretty much still the same thing
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If you don't like what your country is doing, then move. You're still in the EU for now, you have free movement.
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Everyone is emotionally involved in this and they just want to prove that they're right without any civilized disscussion.
It's expected for the pound to fall, I don't really see how this is argument against brexit. People who think it's because Britan is racists are probably not mature enough, their brains are not developed enough grasp this whole situation (no offense, but everyone was like that once) and anything about "my freedom" doesn't even deserve a mention.
Leaving the EU was a ratioanl decision, it was a vote for workers/middle class, bureaucrats and big companies lost. There are hard times ahead of Britain but at the end life should be better.
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Some facts I know about (if you have some more please tell me below, I'll try to read them all)
-the GBP (Great Brittish Pound) has dropped from 1,50USD : 1GBP to 1,35USD : 1GBP
-Some people regret their choice
-they are out of the footbal competition in the EU (nothing to do with the brexit but still :P)
-AAA+ mark has dropped to AA
some videos to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8 - lwt with john oliver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0ac5HUpDU -lwt update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 - brexit the movie
other interesting links:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 -vote
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