I dunno, man. It seems to me you lost out because of your inaction, not because Humble did anything in particular. I get feeling peeved, but you might be doubling down on those negative feelings rather than shrugging and moving on.
At least you're getting your money back, man, that's a big something. You missed your chance, it's not available anymore, take the seventeen us american and buy another game and reveal the key in a timely manner.
The only big fault I can put on Humble is that they didn't make it more apparent that this could be a result of you not activating your key in time, and the dev pulls the game off steam. But now you know
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I feel like you should be happy they refunded you.
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I can see why Humble doesn't reserve keys because if the developer pulls their game off steam and decides to revoke all unused keys then the key Humble gives you would not work and you would be in the same position anyways but Humble would get a bad reputation and would have to deal with a bunch of angry customers saying Humble gave them invalid keys which would not be their fault.
HB has great customer support and is willing to refund your money months after your purchase. Be happy about that.
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so much to not owning, and tos and so on here a real thing:
http://www.brodies.com/binformed/legal-updates/european-court-confirms-the-right-to-resell-used-software-licences
no matter what their tos states, european court stated you have every right to resell.
Nobody caring to go to court for a few dollars / euros doesnt mean everything they state is as it is. they can write whatever they want into their tos, that doesnt mean its legally binding. the only problem is they can go on so long nobody really goes all they way up such instances.
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Finally some one that understands my point of view!
The TOS means ZILK, it needs to abide the laws of the country where the product was sold!
What ever this, this is starting to resemble the piracy equal theft crap :))).
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That has been ruled in court to not apply to games, just software.
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Not software like business software, due to games having audio visual parts.
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So there's a legal distinction between games and software that has to do with having audio visual parts or not? Live and learn but mind slightly blown
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What, the first time I heart of this.
Some citations from an actual law that says this?
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but it shows that tos are useless. and the possibility what would happen if someone would go against Games to court.
They can do it because nobody did so far, and as long nobody will they can go on.
Its the same arguments as for this software, people would have told you you agreed the tos blabla, they can do it blabla until it suddenly goes up to instances where they state its not.
doesnt mean they could decide in favor of it either, luck always plays with it, other judges and the judgement could suddenly be the opposite.
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Valve has been court twice and they won both times
Users on Steam effectively did not “purchase” a game, because the software could never be used without limitation but only as a part of the (other) services provided through the platform.
This reasoning is compelling, as the service of Valve for its customers is not limited to making games available for download. Steam serves as a multiplayer and communication platform and makes it possible to automatically install bug fixes and other updates.
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The implemented the refund system because of Australian and EU courts so NOP.
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I mean specifically about resale. But Valve was only sued for refund policy in Australia (and it's still on going after almost 4 years).
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And they did implement the refund policy and that was my point.
TOS is irrelevant because the law is supreme!
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Oh, for god's sake. Have you seriously never bought something before only to have the seller come back, tell you they're out of stock, and issue you a refund? They didn't reserve a key just for you because that way lies unnecessary financial losses for them, seeing as how a certain percentage of keys will never be revealed. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it illegal or any of the rest of what's being tossed around in this thread? Absolutely not. You buy something, you're owed either what you bought or a refund (and possibly additional compensation if the lack of what you bought otherwise costs you like in the case of oversold flights, but that doesn't apply here). You're getting a refund. Chalk it up to experience, reveal your keys asap in future, and move on.
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It's probably not designed as long term storage solution. You would not tie key before it's revealed, so you can easily give refund.
They might not even have keys themselves, but get on demand from something Genba or Exertis.
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humble bundle is not a game shop. it's a charity game shop, so you pay, forgive, and need no refund.
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This isn't a Humble Bundle issue, this has to do with the license for the IP.
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No, it is a Humble Bundle issue. They sell you key they don't actually have, and only obtain the key when you ask for it.
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No it's not a HB issue. They more than likely distributed all their keys and they won't be able to due to the reason I mentioned above. Also, even if they still had keys in their possession they wouldn't be able to distribute them due to what I mentioned above.
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Well, if you believe that selling something you don't have is okay - then it's not Humble Bundle issue.
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First I never said my thoughts on what I think was ok and not ok, you can assume whatever you like. When the product was sold to the OP they did in fact have the product available for sale, so your statement is incorrect. What you aren't understanding in this matter is this has everything to do with the IP and the license. Reading up on IPs and licenses might help you to understand things a little better.
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I don't talking about legal regulations. I'm talking about user experience. If someone sell something to me, I pay to him, and when I come to get my goods he says "sorry, I sold it again to some other guy" and gives me a refund - it's legal, yes, but I will consider this seller a jerk. It's not any different with digital goods.
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Nobody "sold it to some other guy". The problem is, the guy took so long to reveal the key that the developer revoked it and every single other unredeemed key at the time long since then. The key was indeed there. But its no longer even real, so they didn't display it when went to reveal it finally. Humble itself is irrelevant in this case as it happened with every single other distributor. Its Activision and Sony at fault for invalidating keys already bought and in circulation.
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The key was indeed there.
No, it's your imagination. OP clearly states:
I can't get the Steam key
Not "My key didn't worked". They can't check if key is working, so if key was there - they would show it. There were no key at all. And yes, humble bundle is to blame, not sony or activision.
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no, you see, they don't assign a specific key until you press THIS button
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You aren't understanding. The keys sold come from a batch they pull from at the moment you reveal the key. The key was originally available and was revoked before it was revealed because OP is an idiot and waited months, now the pool is empty and cannot be drawn from because they were revoked.
It literally could not possibly matter whatsoever if Humble still had the key. They could give him fifty keys. They still wouldnt work. Because they were all voided. So they didn't bother pretending to reveal one.
If you bought a game from Humble, Fanatical, Indiegala, Greenmangaming or any other third party steam key distributor with the exact same system and then the developer revoked the keys, it would be the exact same case.
That's what I understand usually happens when games licenses expire, at least.
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It's not common at all for licensed games to get their keys revoked, no. It hasn't happened with Spiderman either, keys still work fine.
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I was told there was a lot of trouble activating old licensed games before they were leased out again, like Spiderman and a lot of the old Disney games.
I suppose I just have confirmation bias.
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Reslly? You never bought keys of games with expired license from gray markets? Because there are tons of them, all working. You just lie to support your point of you. That's all I need to know about your piont of view.
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I do not buy from gray markets, so I wouldn't know about that context, specifically.
That said, There have been plenty of occasions where keys have expiration dates and have been told repeatedly myself that games that are no longer purchasable are on the list.
If you think lying and being incorrect are identical in any way, you ought to research the English language.
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Well, if you don't like "lying" then it will be "Talking about something you know nothing about"?
You know, if humble gives me a key, and it gets revoked because I didn't activated it for too long - I would blame publisher for revoking a key. But if humble don't give me the key - I blame humble. That's natural, isn't it?
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It would be. The point I was trying to make in the previous comment under the understanding of voiding the key was that just because the key was not there after attempting to reveal it does not mean it wasn't there in the first place.
However, if the key was not invalidated then without pics or some correspondence, I can only assume they didn't take count and resold, but I have never seen a case like that which took months to be seen. I suppose because they would give you a message to wait while they get more keys, but in this case, more keys aren't coming.
My bad.
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They don't provide refunds outside of a 60 day window. Yours is. They can't provide you with a new key cause they don't have any and they won't be able to get anymore because the license of the IP holder. So since they can't do this they are providing you with a refund because they can't give you a new key.. even if they wanted to they couldn't.
Humble Bundle didn't give you a key as I've already pointed out to you, they just provided the spot where the key goes till you actually generate the key to your account.
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they just provided the spot where the key goes
That IS the issue. User paid for a key, their misleading site make user believe he got a key (that's how page in profile titled), but instead they provide " spot where the key goes". That is the main reason for frustration.
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This has everything to do with distribution and licenses and I've really tried to help you understand that, but there's not much more to say. Have a good one.
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Not every distributor operates this way, so you are certainly wrong, or maybe just lying. Even steam itself, when buying gifts to inventory was still a thing, leaved those inventory gifts when game was removed froms store. So, it's absolutely obvious, that while it can be this way, it does not have to. And so, complains are that Humble have it this way, not another, but their interface is misleading and make one think it's not how it really is. I've really triex to help you to understand that, but there's not much more to say. Have a good one.
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Maybe I'm lying? You've tried to help me understand that but there's not much more to say have a good one? That looks so familiar. It's pretty clear by this comment and other comments you've made on this thread you are just trying to get a rise out of people and push an argument along for the sake of arguing.
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push an argument along for the sake of arguing.
That's pretty much what you doing in here.
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Sorry, but that is not what usually happens. Keys from removed games almost always work absolutely fine. I never had one that didn't work months or even years later.
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If ancient game keys in circulation still, work, I may have to try to find a working key for Stubbs the Zombie. The distribution was a shitshow.
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You may certainly try, but be aware that removed games can get very expensive. Especially the ones that are considered good and are removed for a long time. Some can easily cost 300$ and more. I think Stubbs is one of those games. If you find someone selling it (and still remember this conversation), please post the price he's asking for. :)
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this guy doesn't even have enough money to rub two sticks together, he isn't buying any removed games,, well maybe overpay for some digital homicide game or something, but not Stubbs..
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"it would be the exact same case." I disagree, I think some of the other sites would not have gave a full refund! OP and others clearly don't understand the core of this issue.
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i don't know about your country, but in mine there is something called warranty. if a company sells a product to me, only 2 months later i want to use it and they tell me they don't have what they sold me anymore - i am sure every court would agree with me that this is a problem.
besides, humble bundle always used to mention in their bundles that the keys will be available on their page "for the foreseeable future". i can't find it anymore, so they must have removed it. but in the past they basically tought us "don't worry, your keys are safe here, we'll keep them for you as long as we are in the business".
the obvious issue here is that they sold the same key twice. the mere fact that i didn't redeem my key yet does not mean they can sell it to someone else. especially, if they give me all the tools to request that key whenever i want. that is why they absolutely have to give a refund. if they don't, they might get into legal trouble, if someone decides to sue them (which nobody would realisticly consider for just a cheap steam game, i know, but that doesn't really matter).
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I wouldn't say warranty has anything to do with this case no matter how small the time frame is that you waited to use the key. Doesn't matter anyways since in OP's case, it was after the two month "warranty". Yeah I definitely remember seeing that somewhere so they may have removed it due to policy changes.
Eh, I would say this is similar to buying a reservation, like to seating at some type of event. There is nothing you can do other than give a full refund.
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I really need to take all my keys from humble bundle. I thought they are safe there, but obviously I was terribly wrong.
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As far as they give full refund, I couldn't care less. What I really want I activate, in case of the extra there's a reason it's not activated yet :)
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It's good for you, but it does not means everybody have the same strategy. For example I sometimes don't activate games I want myself if I have no time to play right now, because it can be on huge discount on steam, and I will buy it there and giveaway key instead, because key is ROW and my steam is region locked. And someone can have their own reasons to not activate at once. Only thing that changes for me is that I won't keep keys on HB, I will reveal them and store in text file.
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I agree, good for me, this is why I didn't criticize others. If someone keeps them in a stockpile to trade or something, then it's surely troublesome. Though I still have unactivated Slime Ranch and Grim Dawn from 1,5 years before from the monthly because I'm still not sure if I want them for myself or to give away, so the situation is not so outlandish for me either. :)
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Grim Dawn is fantastic by the way. Its second expansion was announced not too long ago :)
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oh yeah, so i guess i can become a car dealer, sell cars, and then take them back from my old customers with the reason that they weren't using them. what's wrong with that ?
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Your analogy is wrong.
This is the equivalent of buying a car and leaving it at the dealership for six months without paying them extra to park it on their lot. At some point, they're going to have it towed.
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Almost like that, only dealer never actually had a car.
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no. the purchase implies that the key has to be made available for the customer to pick up. the website platform and keys section are there for this purpose. the purchase history, key "slot" and all the rest are still there and the website is still running and selling keys. the only thing that is being removed is the ability for the customer to use what they paid for
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The OP never had a key. So the analogy with the cars is wrong.
Instead, HB assigned the purchase with a key pool. Unfortunately, in this special case the pool dried out in the meantime. And that's not HB's decision. So they didn't take anything away.
Activision had to remove the game from Steam due to expiring license. When a game gets delisted, the developer/publisher becomes unable to generate keys for it. If Activision would distribute further keys for it in any way, they would break their contract with the IP holder.
If HB would provide keys, they would break the contract with Activision, because Activision again would be questioned by the IP holder. Nobody is allowed to provide keys for the game at this time.
OP can be glad that HB refunds it.
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Come on, keeping the key in user's profile and selling new keys is totally different. Noone can question HB for keeping ALREADY SOLD keys, because nobody knows about those keys exept of the buyer.
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Don't know how you mean this exactly, but it's a key pool as others already stated.
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Key pool is not bad concept itself, but the problem is key should be aquired from the pool when purchase is finished, not when user decides to reveal key. Humble, obviously, does the latter, and that's a bad move actually. And, what is worse, their site is misleading. It has "keys" tab in your profile, where all your purchased games listed (well, except of drm-free ones). From looking at this page user gets the idea that his keys are safely stored on humblebundle servers, but in truth they are not! No wonder people angered about it.
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yeah, sounds weird that the keys aren't just assigned on purchase instead of needing the customer to actually go beyond the purchase and claim one
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Well, Humble states that keys are for personal use only, so which reason is there to not use it in time?
And yes, I'm trading myself.
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And then, Humble has gifting system. Are they violating their own rules?
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Well, now you may notice, that we are here on the site where we GIFT steam games, and that's exactly why one may want not activate key at once, but store it to gift it on some occasion.
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Yup. But you can reveal it and save it in your spreadsheet.
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This is how I do :D
N and Y indicates whether it's redeemed or not :P
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bullshit. all these systems shouldn't be the worry of the customer who's paying money for something. they should just deliver a key instead of working off a pool and assigning them at random, whatever, but it should be their problem not the customers's. it's also HB's decision and all IP holders/publishers/whatever to go with such a system to start with. not the customers one. he can be glad HB refunds it ? yeah, HB can be glad he won't sue them for the inconvenience and damages
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Which damage? That he can't sell the key for 80 bucks or even more, because the game got removed and some dumb collector will pay it? He got the refund. If he just wants to play the game, he could buy it cheaper as DRM free version.
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awww i think I have unshown humble keys from years. i wonder if they are still available...
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If they still have keys to distribute in their key lot for that game, then yes you should be able to generate a key to your account. If they are out they can get more as long as it's not something like this situation where the game isn't sold anymore due to licensing with the IP.
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shitty. for me that functionality is to mark unused AND owned keys. i wish they changed it in a always shown key with a used/unused marker concept. if i remember right, it's how groupees has it.
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HB is doing a generous thing by providing a refund. They don't have to, according to user agreement which is bound to how distributing of keys is done, as others already explained.
The refund they are offering you is not coming from the publisher's wallet, who has nothing to do with HB store anymore.
You should be grateful. They are providing as highest level of service as it is possible to imagine, in my opinion.
Do you deserve it?
Some people should understand that there are a lot of things which they just do not know; e.g. how and why things work. There is always directions for improvement, but existing ways of handling things are already working in the reality and are converged to at least some sub-optimum. To offer actual improvements how something could work better, one needs to understand how this something works in the first place. People explain you your mistake and you argue instead of thinking and thanking.
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So according to you, if they didn't even offer a refund it would be ok. Great, you buy a game, you don't click that "reveal key" button on time and you are screwed, you lost your money and your game. This is nonsense and probably even illegal in the EU, not sure.
If there are things people should know about how things works then explain, not just leave it as "hey, this is complicated, sorry" or "yeah, we sold you a key to activate the game but you didn't click that button so we don't have it any more".
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If they did not offer a refund in this situation, it would be legal, but not friendly to a customer, even if the customer perfectly knows that there is no guaranteed refund. They accept the loss not to make you unhappy with this story, a 'kingly deed' worth a store having a face to lose.
I personally don't count that we all as customers necessarily need to know how everything works and to read all the eulas etc. Everybody makes mistakes and learns from them. SG users learned from your topic. Just look at things positively and remember which things were better for you than others, for the next time when you need them -_-
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I kind of agree with Lilith on that one. You should consider yourself lucky that HB is offering you a refund because the vast majority of stores give you a Steam key and should you ever complain it doesn't work once the game has been removed, you would never get anything back. At least, with HB, you can prove you never used the key since you never got it in the first place.
Many people don't reveal keys or generate gift-links to trade the games, which is against HB's TOS. I'm also into trading a little but I know it could become risky.
And to be clear, you don't buy a game but a license to play it which lasts as long as the publisher lets you (even if it's usually forever). Even on discs, the games were never truely yours. That's what it's like in the software world.
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Actually in the EU it is yours by law - EU rules state that a software licence can be transferred by the original owner - just ask microsoft about it :) - they got bent over by the EU courts and told that it is perfectly legal for the original owner to sell on their property - including the licence for their product :P - now in the United States it is different somewhat I believe, but in the EU - what you buy, is what you own, and is yours to do with as you please - now enforcing that law is a whole different matter, but it exists :) (the threads contain some of my old links to the case law I believe - but I have not searched for it in a long time)
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What you just described sounds both immoral and illegal. A company can't just take your money and then never give you anything for it, that's called stealing.
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In regard of this story, the only immoral and, most probably, illegal move would be for a publisher to earn money with selling their keys through stores and then to revoke the sold keys, especially after agreements with stores are ended.
In practice there is nothing digital customers own forever. If at some point HB or Steam or whatever else perishes as a company, there may be no one (e.g. who would buy the company) to maintain the servers from where past customers would access keys they have once bought or download a game. And this is natural.
This is not related to the legal things and stores, but you know, same can happen in a larger scale with money and real estate, e.g. if a big war or a cataclysm happens so that there would not work even any kind of insurance. The only things we truly have/"own" are our memories, skills, and, thankfully, bodies. Even this is becoming relative since people's memories are full of crap whish is consistently generated for reasons.
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Crazy how nobody has blamed IGN for it yet :>. They aren't able to uphold their side of the deal and offer you a refund, as is common practice in almost every business, even if it sucks that the key for Spider-Man unfortunately seems to be lost in time.
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Any particular reason why you didn't unveil the key/shouldn't unveil it?
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That way I can keep track of the unused keys easily. No risk of reusing a key for a gift for example.
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Why don't you just paste your keys in a spreadsheet?
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I can mess things up, forget to remove a key after it's been used (this has happened to me) or even the spreadsheet could get compromised (someone reads it somehow, stealing or hacking my computer for example). With HB's reveal key feature, I could be %100 sure I was using a valid key... well, until now.
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Yeah and that way there is no way of you messing up, oh wait
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Humble's already got a key library and a filter for unrevealed keys. Their system encourages this.
I also do this... I'll probably stop in the near future and go for a much more unreliable system of making manual spreadsheets.
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It is anacceptable, when they dont tell it to you right at the moment, when you buy it. Some warning like "Redeem it in the next 60 days or it might not be redeemed anymore". Otherwise they would need to buy keys from somewhere else. They should be ressourceful enough, they can do it.
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HB does not know WHEN or IF keys might become unredeemable. Besides, it's already written in the TOS.
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It does indeed suck that you can't get your game you purchased and yes I think you should be able to.
If you've read my comments on this thread you might know what I'm going to post here. I'm sure if there's someone in the community that was a developer or a publisher that worked with someone else's IP they could probably explain this better than me. I'm just going to state things from my understanding. Ok, so this is bigger than Humble Bundle, this has to do with licenses and the IP. Humble Bundle if it were up to them they would give a key, but it's not up to them. If they did have any keys for Spiderman Shattered Dimensions still I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to sell or distribute them due to the license agreement being over between Activision and Marvel. If HB did this I'm pretty positive their would be legal trouble for them. So this isn't that HB doesn't want to get you a new key or give you one if they had one, they just couldn't do even if they wanted to. Due to the situation and it being out of their hands, HB went against their own 60 day policy and offered a full refund.
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Imagine going to a store where you buy a ticket for a concert and when you show up, they just say "Oh, we sold too many of them. Want a refund?"
Utterly ridiculous. I feel for you, dude.
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Well they overbook flights fine already, why not concerts either :P
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Yeah, and there are laws for it. If you overbook a flight then usually people get more money back with the refund. Up to some amount (in the EU it's 250€-600€ depending on the distance). That also applies to getting bumped to a later flight.
So even though the airline can do scummy stuff, the passenger usually gets a really good payday if they get screwed over.
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no matter what happened, you never revealed the key, and now they have no more keys to give because the game was removed from steam.. Use it as a learning experience to always reveal your keys.. They offered a refund and at this point you're best bet is to take the refund, nothing else can be done as the game is no longer being sold, thus no more keys, thus no more chance of you getting the game..
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I've just published my reply to Humble Bundle about this issue in the opening post.
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The only thing which could be done better, is informing owners of unrevealed keys by email that they got a surprise deadline to redeem their key (maybe they did this long time ago?). I know for sure they send emails informing about keys a redeem deadline for which is close, when the deadline was known during purchase.
So which better stores do you consider? Stores which just give you a revealed key when you make a purchase? But you could do the same in HB by revealing your keys immediately, too. You only have more options to choose from. If you are not content with that, then do you basically want a store which reserves you a key copy but hides it under 'show' button? Is this tiny detail the most important thing for you? Maybe you really should consider using your own key textfiles/tables. It makes a single structure for all your purchases from stores with different systems and policies. Plus all these stores, especially smaller ones, may perish some day, really not a good choice to leave your purchases there for years.
A similar problem may happen with assigning keys immediately. And even if they would assign the key from a pool only for games which get removed from the store, to minimize the risk. Shop does not know are the keys working or not, and may not know if publisher invalidates any keys at any point. If you had the key assigned AND it did not work, you would be still unhappy and HB would not have the opportunity to give you a replacement. This situation is much worse from legitimacy point of view. Anyone with no proof can accuse the store in anything: in selling keys twice which they were supposed to reserve for paying customers or selling reserved keys elsewhere, for instance, and this accusation can happen at any time in the future, like a time-bomb. No, this is why legit stores want to have a date range [e.g. 2 months since the purchase] when they can handle any problems straight with the publishers and without risks for losing money as in your case. Selling keys is not same as selling cars and even tickets. The problem is - shop has no guaranteed way to verify if the key is valid (and will be valid forever) in the first place.
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Well, Midnighter, for example you bought a good tasty beefsteak in the market. You came home and puted it to fridge. After two month you took it from fredge and saw, that steak is rotten. Is it market's problem? No.
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It's only YOUR fault. I understand If You had bought key week ago and the key didn't work. But come on. Waiting for months and complaining about it?
They have to laugh at You at their HQ. That You can't redeem code within month and even few months and You say how disappointed You are and treat them that Yo might not buy bundles in the future because "validity" of the purchase is questionable.
Deal with it. YOU screwed up. It's only YOUR fault. There is NO single reason to wait for redeem the code.
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NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I had an unused spider-man dimension key too! I always thought that Humble Purchases were backed up with a specific key stored for each game. FUUUUUCK.
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I don't know how common this is but it really bugs me.
I've just found I can't get the Steam key for a game I purchased months ago.
I understand that game is not available any more, but HOW COME they didn't reserve a key for my purchase???
I contacted support and this is the response I get:
"Hi there,
I'm sorry for the trouble! This item was taken off the Store and we won't be getting anymore keys unfortunately. Since this is outside of the 60 days refund window. Would you like the $17.80 returned to your Humble Wallet or send manually to your Paypal account? Please provide your Paypal email address if you want the manual refund.
I'm so sorry about the inconvenience,
-XXXXX
Humble Bundle"
So beware because if you didn't unveil the Steam key you may find that they won't provide it in the future, which I find UNACCEPTABLE.
MY REPLY TO HUMBLE BUNDLE:
Hi,
I'm really disappointed about this issue. One expects all the keys to be available after hitting that 'reveal key' button, but it turns out that now there is no guarantee that there will be a key. I used to take for granted that all the hidden keys were there waiting for them to get unveiled. I was wrong. It was a convenient mechanism to make sure those keys hadn't been used, so that I could gift or use them safely. Not any more. What seemed to be a great feature turned out to be a trap.
Imagine how insecure I feel now about all the other purchases where the key hasn't been revealed yet. Will there be a key available after I hit that 'reveal key' button? Who knows!
I think there is something fundamentally wrong in your approach to the keys management if a key can suddenly stop being available, with no previous warning for the user. The key was bought when there were keys available and it should always be available, it can't depend on when I hit that 'reveal key' button, it makes no sense from the user's perspective (and I know there are probably technical or licensing reasons behind but this behaviour is unacceptable from the user's point of view). If a key risks becoming unavailable, then it's always better to show it up immediately. What's the point of having a 'reveal key' button if it is putting in risk the availability of the key?
If there is no way for you to get valid keys for my purchases, I accept the refund you offer (to the Humble Bundle wallet is fine) but it makes me reconsider my purchases on your store as the precedent this introduces questions the validity of the purchases I am making.
Thanks for your reply to my support ticket and the refund offer.
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