The question is simple. If there is a God, then there is evil. If there is no God, then there is no such thing as morality, and its all a big cosmic accident, and raping a child is just as moral as an asteroid colliding with a moon. We do not merely have a social contract that we wont rape children... we have a strong, base, visceral disgust about it. Evil is not a construct, and most people who doubt it have simply never encountered it... but you know it when you see it.
Whether or not there is morality, we certainly live AS IF there is morality, and that seems to be the default way of understanding reality. You can only natural discern something that is there. This suggests there is a God, therefore good and evil.
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Thank god there are still sane people capable of discerning human actual nature from God and still acknowledge the existence of evil.
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I had so many claims like this today that it makes me wonder... Which one of you are the real evil? I^v^I
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I truly believe that the Evil Dead exists, it seems the perfect book to read in a train journey ; )
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Depends of what you understand evil is to be honest.
Back in the days when I was born, I was considered good and stuff, bringer of hope. When I aged up and my parents saw I am having free will and my own choses to make, they started to consider me corrupt and evil. True, I did lie to achieve few pleasures, I did become arrogant and stubborn. But then they banished me... Nower days when people around me get asked why they did something not "good", they claim that I made them, even if I got nothing to do with it... So basically evil and good are an illusion... it all depends on how you see it and how the current morals of the human race go... few decays ago, slavery wasn't considered evil, but then the mentality changed and now it's the biggest sin in the world.
Women been allowed to work, to dress skimpy, to talk bad about men, was considered good as well, now it's evil... As I said, depending on the current mentality of the human race. And for me? Evil and good don't exist, there's just crazy and less crazy people. And different fetishes... Douh, I do wonder... what is your greatest desire? ;)
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I've seen animals being cruel. My cat will do it with insects it has no intention of eating. Sure, you can call it instinct, or practise for hunting, but then again, isn't it possible to classify humans dicking eachother over for no personal gain as the same? Practise for something else?
I don't believe in "Evil" with a capital E. I believe that there are bad people, people who do bad things for bad reasons, but I don't think they're posessed by satan or any other biblical crap.
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Nah, it's all pretty subjective. I prefer to look at the world as simply actions and consequences. If an action has a positive outcome for me, then it is good and worth pursuing. If an action has negative consequences, it is bad and I should probably not do it.
Consequences are not limited to their direct effects on me. If they include negative social or legal ramifications, these are less desirable actions as a result; not because they are evil by some arbitrary code of ethics, but because causality makes them so.
Plus I'm pretty sure I don't exist.
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Let me kidnap and torture you for a few days to verify if you don't exist and evil is subjective.
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Notabene knows. People are being way too abstract in their understanding of evil.
I used to believe this way, that "every action is just an action" and we ascribe moral qualities to it... Until I realized I was deceiving myself... I recognized that if someone stole my identity and liquidated my bank account.. regardless of my "mind-candy" philosophy, I would feel cheated! I would feel wronged. I wouldnt just say, "boy, this is not a positive outcome for me."
I had a girlfriend cheat on me, and I felt SO betrayed, so hurt. I didnt just say "well, this is a negative result."
Finally, I put all the pieces together and realized that the feeling of betrayal and hurt that I had from her cheating on me is the exact same way that God feels about each one of us, except times 7 Billion.
And loves still..
You know evil when you experience it. May you also know love as it is extended toward you, even now.
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There is no good or evil.
There is merely power and the use of it.
To expand; You mentioned Slavery - that was power - the slavers had the power and the ability to use it. They did so against those who did not have the power.
If you look at most civilizations you see the same concept but with different names - Serfdom, Bondsman, Workhouses, Employment. What makes a difference in many of them are conditions, pay rates, benefits.
Slaves were still fed. They were housed. They may have received medical benefits (Not like in today's society obviously, but there are many recorded instances where an injured slave was given a rest or basic medical treatment - Bandages etc). It all came down to the use of power by those who had it over others.
The only difference with today's civilized workforce is the amount of food/housing/benefits/pay they get. Many hard workers who do physically demanding jobs receive below average pay rates and benefits, belying their efforts, while many powerful business person's receive absolutely huge salaries for doing nothing or just attending a business meeting that may last an hour and effectively be "Cut wages, raise prices and fire a few guys". - Power.
1000 years ago it was evil to have the knowledge of willow tree bark curing headaches - now 70% of the world uses paracetamol without thought.
500 years ago it was evil to believe in any god but the father of Christ - now everyone preaches tolerance.
100 years ago it was evil to be left handed.
75 years ago it was evil to have sex outside of marriage - now people "Shop around" with little judgement - in fact in many societies men who do are considered to be Studs where women are labels Sluts - but the attitudes are changing.
50 years ago it was evil to be homosexual - now it's evil not to embrace it.
The concepts of Good and evil change over time, based on the subjective perceptions of the "Moral Majority" of any society.
I have little doubt, at the rate we are heading, that in 50 to 100 years someone will find a way to legitimize things we now consider heinous - Rape, Pedophilia, nose picking or even Gasp - Digital Homicide Games.
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All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.
Edgar Allan Poe
And lol at google giving me Path of Exile as main result for Poe request
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If you really want to know, then read the bible for yourself. (This is the best way to find out) If you don't understand something (quite likely) then ask someone.
But yes evil does exist. Satan is the epitome of evil, but he was created as a good angel who CHOSE to go against God and became evil.
Angels were all created with free choice as were humans, and some chose to do their own thing instead of following God. (Satan and his demons).
These now evil spirits (who have been banished from heaven to the earth) influence people here on earth to follow them in going against God as well (hence showing evil attributes themselves)..
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Satan is the epitome of evil, but he was created as a good angel who CHOSE to go against God and became evil.
Yes, I know this. My question though is: who created evil? If you can follow evil path someone has to create this path. Or it had to always exist. Or it had to appear itself. My logic:
Evil appeared itself. -> False because it is said that God created everything.
Evil always existed. -> False because 1) it would mean that there was a power who was coexisting with God, 2) it would mean God didn't create evil and it is said God created everything.
Evil was created by God. -> False because everything what God has created was good. Unless evil is good.
copy-pasted from another comment
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That's if you think of evil as a THING.
Evil is not a THING, but rather, it's an intangible feeling/action like LOVE, HATE etc (not sure if that's the correct description)
But in a nutshell Satan 'made' evil
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1 John 4:8 "God is love"
Again love isn't a 'thing', it's a 'state of mind' or 'action' type of thing.. It's a quality of a personality..
People (angels as well) have the capacity to show love or evil. It's a choice.
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Then I don't understand because you say God is love and in the very next sentence you say it's just a state of mind. Then God is just a state of mind? Apart from this: if evil was made by satan how satan knew how to become evil. Apart from this: do you try to tell me that God can only create material things and he cannot create feelings? :O
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"God is Love" in that he is the epitome of love.. he shows it in everything he does.
Can you buy a box of love?
Can you buy a box of evil?
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Then who has made consciousness? If God can only create material things...
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feeling can be explained bio-chemical. feelings are not just nothing, they are reactions that happen physically in your body. if you look at someone and get a warm belly, because you love him/her, that is also nothing else than a bio-chemical reaction. did god not create our body? my answer is of course he didn't, because he doesn't exist... ;)
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Well he says there is no evidence that god exists.. whereas i say the evidence is all around us..
The proof is everywhere in creation. Everything you see CANNOT have just happened, or evolved..
If i show you a washing machine and ask you where it came from.. you would say someone made it..
If i told you i just put all the parts into a container and kept shaking it until the washing machine was done, you'd call me an idiot..
Whereas even just 1 cell in a human body for example is a LOT more complex.. so how could THAT just happen by accident?
It's impossible..
But back to 'evil'... it's just a word to describe a personality trait. It's not a tangible item that can be made or destroyed etc.
God however didn't only 'create material things', he also gave consciousness to every living thing. With humans however he 'made us in his own image' in that we have free will to choose what we do.. (animals don't have this free will). So evil does exist in that people can be evil (show evil traits).
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Well he says there is no evidence that god exists.. whereas i say the evidence is all around us..
No, we cannot talk like this if we want to have a discussion. You say there is evidence that God exists, KillingArts says there is no evidence that God exists. You both are using the same argument - your beliefs.
The proof is everywhere in creation. Everything you see CANNOT have just happened, or evolved..
See, this is just your belief. Let me remind you that science likes to be right. Science said that you can fly if certain conditions will be met and science proved it by creating a plane. So if you don't believe in science and you want to discuss with me basing on only your personal beliefs we won't go far. Because evolution is a fact. However it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. But you cannot deny proved facts.
If i told you i just put all the parts into a container and kept shaking it until the washing machine was done, you'd call me an idiot.
You're trying to prove me however that there is a superior being that is able to do that. If I would tell you that everything was made by Giant Spaghetti Monster because it has power to do this and the proof that it's true is the creation itself because it couldn't happened just like that or evolve - how you can prove me I am wrong. You can't. You can't prove me with your logic that you are right because you say something like God exists because he has created everything. It is based only on your belief, not on any fact. It is the same as if I would say Giant Spaghetti Monster exists because he has created everything. The only difference is our beliefs: you believe in God, me in Spaghetti Monster. And now try to prove me that Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. And please don't use argument that Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist because there's only God - it means nothing to me because I don't believe in God and your reasoning means nothing to me. It's like you'd try to say that 2+2 isn't 4 because you don't believe in this. (Please note that I'm not saying God doesn't exist - I'm just saying we cannot prove he doesn't exist as much as we cannot prove that he exists.)
But back to 'evil'... it's just a word to describe a personality trait. It's not a tangible item that can be made or destroyed etc.
God however didn't only 'create material things', he also gave consciousness to every living thing. With humans however he 'made us in his own image' in that we have free will to choose what we do.. (animals don't have this free will). So evil does exist in that people can be evil (show evil traits).
So you agree that God has to give us something whether material or non-material thing so we could use it, right? He gave us bodies, conciousness, free will. He gave us a choice to choose good or evil. He gave us good so we can use it as a choice. But he didn't give us evil.
Also I don't follow your logic: evil isn't tangible item that can be made or destroyed so God didn't create it. Free will isn't tangible item that can be made or destroyed yet God could create this. Evil, love, happiness, sadness, free will, conciousness are all non-tangiable items.
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you say God is love and in the very next sentence you say it's just a state of mind. Then God is just a state of mind?
now we're talking reality! xD
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Evil is rebellion against God. God did not create evil, but He created choice.
Satan invented rebellion and speaks it to the heart of every man, every day.
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"To me it seems like evil is just humans creation. In nature evil doesn't exist - we cannot say that 2 animals fighting for territory are evil."
When you break it down Evil is simply a choice made by a self-aware being so, for my money, this initial statement is false. Trying to quantify 'Evil' in a universally acceptable way is practically impossible, like most things there's a massive spectrum between good and evil. Most sentient people/creatures/murderous robots will bounce up and down it with every decision they make and like as not every individual with have their own tendency one way or the other.
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Evil is lack of goodness. Not a thing per say. It's not opposite of good. Yes.
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Evil is relative. It is a man-made concept, so it varies even from person to person. In reality, I believe neither good nor evil exists. There is only the deed or act.
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Of course! I do have morals, like theists, but it would be silly to turn away from facts. This knowledge does not compromise my integrity in any way.
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The problem is, you are indeed turning away from fact. Which is that evil is not and has never been a man-made concept but is a naturally neurologically ingrained concept deriving from the emergence of consciousness.
Evil is being aware of wrongdoings wether you are the perpetrator or victim, which is a typically human thing that does not exist amongst animals. You'll never see an animal torture an other animal, yet if I show you a video of a child being tortured I'm pretty you will have the same reaction as all normal humans.
Talking about the notion of morals, which is just a normalised organisation of good and evil, as a way to relativise these concepts is at the basis of systematised evil, wether in fascism, slavery, genocide etc...and you will note that here I didn't mention isolated crime like murder, paedophilia or rape.
Because turns out that psychopath who go on carrying acts of murders or rape are neurologically disordered people who actually don't see the notion of evil therefor almost making it non-existent in these case, but what constitutes TRUE evil is the constant slippery slopes of morals towards the relativisation and acception of evil.
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Exactly, neurologically ingrained..........by man. On purpose.
In the beginning, it was decided that indiscriminate killing of other members of your species would lead to its downfall, hence called evil. Paedophilia was seen to have negative psychological effects on children, making them less than ideal as parents themselves, hence called evil. Rape is only considered evil today, but in the middle ages and before, Knights and Chevaliers would rape any woman they wanted and even thought they "honoured" the women by doing so. Over time man became wise, and realised that some events could cause less than ideal specimens for breeding, and altered their "policies" accordingly. So even these isolated crimes were normal once in our dark history. My point is that the line between good and evil shifts as time goes by.
The fascists, slavers and those who committed genocide also thought that they were right, and they weren't exactly psychopaths. A lot of people who murder and rape can justify their actions to themselves, so they don't feel any guilt. Not all of them are disordered mentally.
Also, seeing a child tortured will be painful to watch because my ancestors decided that torturing a child, or any human, is wrong(and pointless). They all reacted negatively to human torture or suffering. We naturally inherited those instincts and feelings, and so we react the same way. If someone strapped you to a chair, and showed you a child being tortured, every hour for a whole year, then your mind would recognise that as normal by the time that year ends.
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So like most atheists you choose to completely disregard basic neurological, anthropological and psychological sciences to invent your own interpretation and rationalisation of how evil came to be by some easy magic darwinistic choices...
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Whatever we are is because of darwinistic choices. Why do you call it magic? It is science!
There is no rulebook that states that anything that benefits man is good, and anything else is evil. Our priority is to survive, so whatever aids us in that is "good". A million years from now, there won't be a human race. Then the true irrelevence of the question of good and evil will be apparent.
If you are a theist, then your opinion is already clouded by delusions. Good and evil has nothing to do with god or any holy scriptures. Also these neurological, anthropological and psychological authorities come up with the broadest, best definition that does not offend anyone. They look at it as a man-made concept and then define it, after.
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"these neurological, anthropological and psychological authorities come up with the broadest, best definition that does not offend anyone" so as I said, like most atheist darwinists you're science denier, and you just ramble your own unfactual rationalisation of evolutionist theories, completely ignoring neo-darwinist or Lamarckan studies.
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I get the feeling that, regardless who does whatever studies, you'll want to push some theologically based definition of evil as the "true" definition. It's called confirmation bias. Look it up.
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Yes, this is called "atheist feelings". Not only did you completely omit the studies, but also not once did anybody talk about theist approaches, yet do not just suppose I would, and then continue commenting as I did talk about theism to tell me about confirmation bias. You're the perfect representation of atheist darwinist: science denial, anti-rationality and anti-reasoned logic.
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Just tell me this......are you a theist? If so, then arguing with you would be pointless.
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Arguing was pointless the moment you denied science, continued to rationalise without providing consequential arguments and found hypocritical escape plot to justify not having to argue or provide said argument. As I said you are the illustration of rationalising atheist darwinists. Spoiler: people like are more dangerous than nazis or ISIS.
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I am not denying science, you are. No study has ever proved existence of any god. It's crackpots like you who talk about "studies" and then claim there's god. Next you'll tell me god told you what evil is and what isn't. Give it a rest!
Edit: Why don't you give me some sources on what you think is the root of evil? Probably hogwash, but worth a read.
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And again, I'm telling you NOBODY but you has ever mentioned god in this discussion, let alone claimed there was one. The fact that you are projecting things that are NOWHERE in any of my previous comment, and then build your responses on non-existing comments shows your unconstructed irrational though process. You are the incarnation of most atheists.
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So what is your point then? You're just telling me that I am ignoring science repeatedly. But what is your bloody point? Why did you ask if I was an atheist? What are you trying to prove? What is your counter to my argument that evil is man-made(edit: or a product of evolution)?
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Evil exists. You'll never see an animal torture another animal.
The notion of evil is both inherently human, and exists as such.
What we define as being evil, like murder, rape or pedophilia, exist not because of the act itself but because of the consciousness of the act, it's suffering it causes and the consciousness of the victim suffering it.
Talking about evil from a religious standpoint is a slippery slope because by nature religion is interpretation, so is evil, in fact that's how people justify evil wether by the presence or lack of belief. However it is in the human nature to discern evil or good, outside of moral norms, for example I can guarantee you that seing a child being tortured will provoke the same ingrained feeling as it would to all normal humans.
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Both Good and Evil are concepts made/created by humans, that is true, and both may vary depending of whom perspective you take. Justice is said to be good, but is no more than a revenge which is normally would be seen as something bad on it's own. The idea is to have a moral compass for a better life for all members of a society, so the concepts of good and evil are bound to change constantly.
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Who was the guy in the enlightenment who said humans were inherently evil? Machiavelli? I agree with him. We're bound by our morals and laws which have been created by social constructs, but if these didn't exist we would do as we pleased, even if it harmed someone else.
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To me it seems like evil is just humans creation. In nature evil doesn't exist - we cannot say that 2 animals fighting for territory are evil. But when you see 2 people doing the same you know something is wrong. Would it mean that evil is just in our minds? If it's only in our minds what are the measures to determine what is evil and what is not. What's evil for one person may be normal for another. It also changes in time. What was considered a common practice in the past (like slavery), today is considered evil or immoral. Who is right when there is no universal law to determine this and it all depends on one's interpretation?
Different thing is religion concept of evil. As far as I know in catholicism it is stated that nothing was created without permision of God and whatever God has made was good. I can't see a logical reason for evil to exist then. It couldn't exist always because it would mean there was a power which coexisted with God and it denies the idea of monotheism. Additionally it would mean something has appeared without permission of God. But on the other hand God couldn't create it because in this case it would be good. So evil either don't exist or it is good. I am not an expert so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not sure what other religions say about evil. I'd appreciate any information about it.
What are your thoughts about this matter though?
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