from what i heard, they won't sell items that modify stats, like pd2 did.
if it's all cosmetic items, i don't see why it should be removed or boycotted. tf2, dota, csgo, LoL, there are games not from valve that also do this.
edit: http://i.imgur.com/h6HC89c.jpg
edit 2: i see that your concern is early access + microtransactions. now i understand why you are annoyed by that.
still, it can be seen as something positive, since the dev will get more funds to keep improving the game... yeah, it's the classic optimistic view, but since this dev has such good reputation i don't think we should doubt them so far. :3
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That is not true
There are plenty of other issues. The game is in early access at full price and is not free to play like dota or tf2. Its not a fully developed game that is PVP like CSGO that added it to revitalize.
There are plenty of Valvle games similar to it that don't have key crate gambling and weapon boosts , like L4D and L4D2
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TWI president John Gibsons said KF 2 is fully funded. He also placed an emergency order for new servers because the game was selling so fast, those servers were delivered to their brand new offices. JG also stated that KF 1 was able to be supported for several years by selling $1.99 DLC packs.
Most likely the extra cash is going to TWI next project, RO Vietnam, which is not in early access and is self funded. Or just additional revenue. Companies have a right to make a profit, but the way the current system is structured its exploitive. It can not be justified by saying it fund the game or future content. Not only is the game funded but there is an alternate approach that takes out the exploitive parts of the system while still providing a steady revenue stream for TWI.
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if it is only cosmetic I don't get what's the problem, here I'm gonna let you a video that might change your mind.
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That is not true
•in the FAQ section of trading floor it asks
Question; Will there be stat boosts, perk boosts, weapon boosts, etc
Answer: NOT AT THE CURRENT TIME. We are evaluating options
This is an early access game, not some free to play game. Tripwire has hinted they will be adding boosts and weapons later on. There is no need for the gambling key aspect.
If you took 5 seconds and read the OP you would see that no one has an issue with cosmetics. There is an alternative plan that gets TWI to commit to never adding anything not cosmetic, gets rid of buying keys and gambling RNG, keeps cosmetic drops and the market, and allows for fairly priced DLC.
Read first, then comment. Works best.
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The problem is that beign an early access title and considering how TWI loved stupid dlcs in the past is not a great idea. I love cosmetics but having all the games I play nowadays filled with a lot of microtransactions makes me not ganna play that. Remember how satisfying was unlocking skins with ingame achievements and such and not having to pay for the skin you like?
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Well, TWI president John Gibson said that TWI staff made some off the content and community made some. In KF 1 all community items were free. All dlc was originally $1.99 and again TWI president John Gibson said that $1.99 dlc packs supported KF1 for several yeas. Read the link I n the op and get the factz
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All community items were free in the workshop,. Tripwire purchased 3 weapons packs that sold for $3.99 , not 7ish. I have the receipt in my steam purchase history.
For the first several years all the DLC was $1.99 for a four pack of skins Like this one:
Killing Floor "London's Finest" Character Pack
The "London's Finest" Character Pack adds 4 more new and unique playable characters for Killing Floor as Downloadable Content. Once you have bought the pack, they will become selectable in the character selection screen in-game.
Neon Weapons Pack (4 guns) and Gold Weapons pack (4 guns) were $1.99 each
It wasn't until Harlold Lott , Ash Harding, Reggie Rocker were not released until KF 1 was almost end of life. They had individual animations and individual voice acting. .
I have all the transactions in my Steam wallet. It shows if it was on sale or not. You should have the same if you bought it on steam.
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+1, i agree with dragoneit
it's cosmetic anyways, and this is coop games, no boost something else boost our wallet lol...
i know people have different tought, you can see mayority reply your thread no problem about KF2 microtransaction
i even tempted unlock usb...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRZHhrASA3E
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Spend $2.50 to get a $.05 cosmetic that might be something you don't want or like? Would you do that in real life? Go to a pizza place, throw $20 on the counter, say surprise me. You might get a soda, you might get a single bread stick or every 1 in 10,000 people get a pizza with lobster on it. Next door is a pizza place where they have fairly priced items and you can order exactly what you want. Which would you use?
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no its not like that mate, it depends which from point of view, if you do not like microtransaction so pass all about it, and got drop item, its simple dont touch it or giveaway to your friends.
for me, i like this game even without microtransaction... so microtransaction is plus from my point of view
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I disagree. I think it is like that. There are additional issues with it as well. Calling items rare so you can charge outrageous prices, they are digital items, you can figuratively have an infinite number of them at almost no cost. Those rare items can only be had by gambling or paying outrageous price on the market.
This is not a free to play game. ITs not TF2 or Dota. There is an alternate plan that provides access to all items at a fair price, still gives in game drops, still allows for a market, but eliminates all gambling, all fake rarity, and still provide TWI with additional revenue.
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Those items that you have to pay for, you already paid for since all content developed during early access is supposed to what you get. They shouldn't even be selling DLC in early access. If they sell it post launch it should be fairly priced like the $1.99 for 4 characters skins or 4 weapon skins. KF 1 had weapons after they promised no weapons, then they said just sidegrades but the flareguns , buzzsaw bow, steam punk rifle are all upgrades.
Tripwire has already said they are looking to put weapons into DLC. There is nothing that will stop them from then putting in maps, game modes, new perks..... unless consumers stand up and tell them they won't accept that business practice.
IF you don't give a rats bottom, don't post. No one is making you post. You can just ignore it right?
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That is not true
•in the FAQ section of trading floor it asks
Question; Will there be stat boosts, perk boosts, weapon boosts, etc
Answer: NOT AT THE CURRENT TIME. We are evaluating options
This is an early access game, not some free to play game. Tripwire has hinted they will be adding boosts and weapons later on. There is no need for the gambling key aspect.
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How many fucking times will you copy & paste that?
Read what you've quoted properly at least.
It's not confirmed, they're "evaluating options". Which means, they might, or might not add boosts.
And even if they add that, how does that ruin your experience? It's a co op game, you don't play against each other.
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The President of TWI, John Gibson, said that KF 2 is selling so well he had to put in an emergency order for new servers. Those servers are being delivered to their new offices where they recently added more staff because they are doing so well. KF 2 is fully funded. The additional income is being used for another game from TWI, RO Vietnam.
•in the FAQ section of trading floor it asks
Question; Will there be stat boosts, perk boosts, weapon boosts, etc
Answer: NOT AT THE CURRENT TIME. We are evaluating options
TWI has hinted they will be adding stat boosts, perk boosts, weapon upgrades and possibly other items.
This is an early access game, not some free to play game.
There is an alternative plan that eliminates the keys and RNG gambling, keeps in game cosmetic drops and the market, and provides fair priced DLC while getting TWI to commit to never add stat boosts and weapons. Why wouldn't you want a better system that gives you everything you get now but ensures you will have access to all cosmetics at a fair price and TWI won't add weapons and stat boosts?
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If they add game changing items to the RNG drops then I'll change my opinion.
I don't believe all the income would go to RO Vietnam, because that's not exactly how it works (maybe they use a .
About that alternative plan. There is nothing that I hate more than weapons/cosmetic DLCs. I just prefer to buy one good item over a bunch of shit.
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Join the group and tell TWI
As far as funds going to RO Vietnam, Tripwire president said KF 2 is fully funded. They are deep in development on RO Vietnam and it is not in early access so it has no funding. If you run a company and one project is funded and one is not, and you have money coming in from one project and have to pay people on another project , what would you do? TWI has spoken about this in interviews.
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You really rather pay for content than getting it for free?
I mean even if they add stat boosts one day, who cares? It's a co-op game.
Let those who want to spend money looking pretty, look pretty and let everyone get the free updates instead of what payday 2 is doing to the players.
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Well, they said items are "cosmetics only AT LAUNCH." At the moment, they are cosmetics only.
TWI mentioned they will probably add weapons for sale (did not provide specifics, but I assume through their ingame store and hope not through RNG).
They said they will listen to community feedback on whether to add XP/STAT Boosts. Quotations Below:
"Q: Will I have to spend money to remain competitive?
A: No. All of the content added in Trading Floor at launch will be cosmetic only and not affect gameplay in any way. In the future we may be adding weapons with new gameplay for sale, but this will appear in the “Shared Content” area on the server. This means that, if any player on the server has a weapon (like the Chivalry Zweihander now), then every player on the server will be able to use it. No-one gets any “advantage”. Co-op game - everyone starts out equal! Our goal is for any such weapons to be side grades anyway, so they won’t provide an edge over the current tier of weapon power."
"Q: Are there consumable items that temporarily boost a stat or perk experience gain?
A: No. There are not currently any items that will boost stats or perk experience gain. We will be listening to player feedback on whether they would like a feature like this."
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They didn't TWI launched this after planning it since the before early access and after the Payday issue. They said they are looking at stat boosts and weapons upgrades. When asked if it will be in the game they outright said " Not at this time, but we are looking at options".
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"Looking at options" doesn't mean that it will be implemented for sure you know?
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Really? And why exactly is it so bad that they implement it? I would enjoy being able to upgrade my weapon or something, just because you don't want it it doesn't mean that everyones like that. Also the part about girlfriend is total nonsense. They are thinking about it that's why they didn't say that it won't be implemented for sure.
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I never said you should not be able to get a skin. Weapon upgrades are fine... in free to play games. If you buy the game why would you want to pay twice for something that is a core part of the game. Cosmetics are different, and are fine if fairly priced.
The girlfriend analogy is perfect. Hits the nail on the head. In KF 1 TWI said they would never sell weapons, then they sold weapons. The said they sold weapons made by modders so that didn't count. Then they said they would on sell weapon side grades - they sold weapon upgrades like the flair pistols , buzzsaw bow, steam punk rifle, and others. There is a clear pattern
Charge a fair price for DLC. They can still have in game drops for some items and allow trading / selling on a market.
Here is an alternative plan
Say you have an AA12 weapons pack DLC for $2 and it contains 5 or 10 skins. Those skins can drop randomly in game at no charge. People can sell those drops on the market. The prices would never go $10 or $100 because then people would just buy the whole pack. People wouldn't have to buy packs, they could get drops and trade/sell them to get what they want.
TWI makes money selling DLC packs and off the trading of in game drops. Players have access to every single cosmetic. No gambling, no need to buy a key for $2.50 to get a $.05 cosmetic that you don't want, no artificial rarity that prices a golden gun at $50.
TWI also states they will never add stat boosts, perk boosts, weapons, maps, new perks, new game modes to the dlc. Make it clear you will or will not.
Win - win solution.
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Once again let me repeat myself, you can't simply refund all the purchases already made and return the money to everyone. You won't be able to change that. No one is forcing you to buy that 50 dollar skin, if you want it you will buy it, if it gets boring you will be able to sell it.
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You don't need to. Does TWI refund everyone who did not buy a game on sale? If you bought an item, you keep the item. If you have an unused key, you get a refund for the key. This is not a free to play game where they can justify that type of manipulative process. Its a fully paid game, still in early access, TWI said its fully funded, and there is a better system that makes items available to everyone while still providing a revenue stream to TWI.
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If you make it this way, the cosmetics will cost even more since if you remove the keys and crates you won't be able to get anymore of the skins. But w/e, even though I'm not against TWI but against your group I wish you luck with what you're doing.
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Its impossible for them to cost more. You can still get in game drops at no cost, the DLC is fairly priced , the market will remain at fair prices because if you price an item at $100 it will never sell fi you can just get a DLC pack for $3. you could price it at $1.00 for someone who just wants that item and doesn't want to wait several months for a drop.
I am not against TWI. I am for TWI and I believe this is for the good of KF 2. I am not against you. I merely explained my point and what I am telling TWI. I respect your right to disagree, and that won't make me against you.
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And why shouldn't I defend them? What if I told you that I like microtransactions and sometimes I use them because I like it, I don't see a reason to remove something that I like. Even if the game cost me 60 euro I wouldn't go against MT. It's my personal opinion, I like RNG, I like skins so I don't see a problem to be against them.
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you shouldn't because it a "waste of money" for the consumer. That RNG and skins can be free! they could make it free. Games like diablo II are still played today because of this. The only reason to get MT in a game is for "pure" greed. Look at rocket league, you get one of their skins each match and they have a few locked behind DLC for those that want to be "more" special.
Look at red orchestra 2 from the same DEV, it has no MT and still has a very healthy playerbase.
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I don't want to start this discussion again, I like MT in KF2 and my opinion isn't going to change. I understand your point of view but personally don't want them to be removed.
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Way to have a civil discussion. It certainly shows a level of maturity to start off with crybabies and ... that's your whole argument.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=575881406
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If you are tired , why read the topic, why respond?
If you read the alternate plan it provides additional funding to TWI ( they should make funding from selling a quality game) and eliminates the worst parts - gambling with keys, over priced DLC, adding weapons or boosts to the system. It maintains all the best parts, and TWI still makes money.
TWI president John Gibson has said KF 2 is fully funded, they are selling so well he put in an emergency order for more servers to be delivered to their brand new offices. He also said that he was able to support KF 1 for several years selling DLC packs for $1.99 each.
The thing you can do about it is voice your opinion. Organize other customers. Consumers have made changes before. Just recently the outrage over selling mods on Skyrim.
Join the group, make your voice heard. You want a quality game at a fair price. DLC should be fairly priced. Have drops and a market but eliminate the RNG gambling and key/crates. TWI makes money, its better for the community, everyone has access to fairly priced DLC>
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If you make something good people will buy it. Make something shitty, people will return it. I am not okay with this system because they might make shitty stuff people will return. Brick and mortar stores have dealt with that for years without having to buy a key and open a box to see if I got a shirt or a snorkel. I walk in and know what I am buying and buy exactly what I want;. Also works online at Amazon and any web based store. When was the last time you gave Amazon $5 bucks and said "throw me a product" without any idea of what you would get? That's just stupid.
This is a video game, not a casino. Video games do not need and should not have gambling for content. I want to buy something, what is the price of that thing. Gambling is a gimmick to trick people out of money and works on a the greater fool theory.
TWI president John Gibson said the they DLC system in KF 1 supported it for several years and helped fund other projects. That same system is being used in brand new games today. So yes, it can work.
Charge a fair price for DLC. They can still have in game drops for some items and allow trading / sellign on a market.
Say you have an AA12 weapons pack DLC for $2 and it contains 5 or 10 skins. Those skins can drop randomly in game at no charge. People can sell those drops on the market. The prices would never go $10 or $100 beause then people would just buy the whole pack. People wouldn't have to buy packs, they could get drops and trade/sell them to get what they want.
TWI makes money selling DLC packs and off the trading of ingame drops. Players have access to every single cosmetic. No gambling, no need to buy a key for $2.50 to get a $.05 cosmetic that you don't want, no artificial rarity that prices a golden gun at $50.
TWI also states they will never add stat boosts, perk boosts, weapons, maps, new perks, new game modes to the dlc. Make it clear you will or will not.
Win - win solution.
Pr
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So you skirted the issue again.
Explain why my proposal is bad for you or for TWI. All items are available at a fair price. There are still drops and a market. TWI still makes a profit. You still don't have to participate in any way.
Why is that bad?
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You skirted the issue again.
Our proposal is a modification of the KF 1 system that includes free drops and a market and also fairly priced DLC. It provides the optimal system for both TWI and players. Games are not for making money, get a job. Want to gamble, buy a lottery ticket.
You still have not given a valid argument why this is bad for TWI or playes
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The game has sold very well without the notice of microtransactions.
KF1 did very well without having microtransactions.
This group is not against all microtransactions, just the particular model implemented on this $30 USD Early Access game.
I think if they do DLC style (itemized or bundled) microtransactions ala KF1 and sold all items through their ingame store, at least it would give players the option to get what they want directly from TWI without RNG or Steam market.
And well, updates are not really free since the community is paying for them anyway. And they still havent even finished the core game content we paid for through the Early Access license.
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Join the group and let TWI know how you feel.
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/TWINOMICROTRANSACTIONS
Makes it a much better system for players while TWI gets to make money.
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Well, they could make all items purchaseable through their in-game store...it just gives the player more options IMHO.
100%. Add me if you want to KF1.
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message to TWI:
Please concentrate on finalizing the core Early Access game content and do not allow the Zedconomy implementation to change the direction and focus of the game.
Many of us are longtime TWI supporters and previously loyal fans. We want TWI and KF2 to succeed. Our Early Access support is proof of this. We want to monetarily support TWI without compromising our game experience or community. We are open to different monetization models, yet find the key crate RNG microeconomy objectionable and not fit for the game. We invite TWI to iterate the Zedconomy into something that attracts the playerbase rather than alienates a segment of it.
Ideally, sold items would confer no advantage to the owner and would remain cosmetic only. Please clarify those terms on your Zedconomy FAQ.
Implementation of the Zedconomy was clearly planned from very early on, if not from inception of the game into Early Access. We feel TWI withheld that information from the gaming population at large in order not to hurt their Early Access sales. Please address your community and bridge the fractured trust these recent actions have caused.
TWI...NO Micro-transactions while on Early Access!
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/TWINOMICROTRANSACTIONS
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Let's be honest, the game market is changing. Oh boy! I'm such a world-changing person by pointing that out! At times, I feel like the world is decaying when I'm sitting at my computer thinking "WHY?" Next, movies are going to be a daily shi- Wait, no, they are a daily shitshow for the most part.
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Better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. I will not go quietly into that goodnight. Tis nobler to take Arms against a Sea of troubles And by opposing end them.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
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Yeah but resignation is easier. Trying requires support and, well, motivation.
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Joining does absolutely nothing. Nobody cares about how many people think something, it's what they do about it.
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AS A CONCERNED/POTENTIAL CUSTOMER, WHAT CAN YOU DO?
A) Invite all your Friends which may be interested, spread the word
B) Speak with your wallet: Do NOT form part of the Zedconomy, Do NOT
support TWI products
C) Review the game (particularly on Steam store): Make sure to include
information on the Zedconomy/Microtransaction model
D) Contact TWI, Use Social Media
E) Stay tuned for group announcements. We will coordinate Email and
Social Media impact days.
F) Suggest alternative Zedconomy models.
G) If you deem appropriate, you may create a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau[www.bbb.org]
TWI will have no choice but to hear our voice if their economic bottom line is affected. Feel free to post concerns and suggestions.
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See, that's better. I don't buy microtransactions anyways, so eh.
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Well, the devs made the decision to include such crap profiteering system in the first place. (In an Early Access game to boot)
The poor saps that don't know any better are just wasting their money and they may or not realize they are being taken advantage of.
Hey, let the saps waste their money...but at least they should provide a viable option through their in-game store for people that actually want to pay for what they want without RNG or external markets.
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It'd be nice if you read the discussion before posting.
Items are cosmetics only AT LAUNCH, but they have other plans for the future. They will probably add weapons according to their Zedconomy FAQ document. They also left the door open for XP/STAT Boosts, they said they would consider community feedback on this matter.
The issue are not the cosmetics per se...the issue lies in the multiple and inconvenient monetization models on this $30USD Early Access game. They already have an ingame store where they could sell itemized and/or bundled DLC style microtransactions without resorting to a F2P/Freemium style key crate RNG microeconomy and to differing rarity/quality Steam market items.
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I'm ok with the market stuff - I think markets for game items can be healthy if they're handled well, and even if things like stat boosts are implemented later, there are games which are pay-to-win but still good. What I hate about this, though, is that it's yet another substantial change being made to a game, with what appears to be little/no warning (correct me if I'm wrong there) and no respect for existing customers. I didn't buy KF2 anyway - partly because it's not my kind of game anyway, partly because I don't like the way Tripwire handle games and DLC in general and I'm not surprised that they'd do this - but I wish there was more in the way of protection for customers in these situations.
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RUST also has paid mods and micro transactions and is in early access this kind of thing is spoiling gaming I stopped buying Electronic Arts games because they like to nickle dime with DLC map packs and weapons and just about anything they will try to make it a DLC.
Seeing more and more of this going on soon every game will be using the Freemium model hell it's bad enough most early access games are abandon ware now they are getting paid mods and micro transactions it's just a sickening money grab and Valve will take their flat 30%.
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In this case, "age of entitlement" refers to an era of society; that is, we live in an era in which people feel entitled to certain things that people of other generations did not feel they were entitled to receive.
Cosmetics only available for now which you are not entitled to.
If weapons get out, depending the circunstance you may or may not be entitled to, but it is not yet the case.
Game has MOD support as far as i know.
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You are missing the point here.
This is not about entitlement.
It is about borderline/deceptive business practices.
About abuse of the Early Access model.
About lack of disclosure of intended monetization models, just to make the Early Access buck work.
Cosmetics are way beyond the point.
This is about luring customers with an "Early Access done right" slogan, then throwing every monetization model, including F2P/Freemium key crate microeconomies, on your playerbase.
What they are selling is not really the point. How they are selling it and How they are treating their early supporters is the main issue.
FYI: Game has a free workshop and a paid curated mod workshop. It has both.
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It is not deceptive and you should not buy Early Access if you are not open to changes. It seems you are not understanding many things at all.
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http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/
Early Access is not a free license to nickel and dime your early adopters.
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Sorry but I can't see the point of being mad at this. Is anyone forcing you to buy the keys to open crates? No. And even if they make it so that they add stats later so what? I really don't give a ****, I enjoy this game fully and the game skins make it even better for me, I really don't see the point. "Question; Will there be stat boosts, perk boosts, weapon boosts, etc. Answer: NOT AT THE CURRENT TIME. We are evaluating options" And it might be that there won't even be bonus weapons buyable from store. Once again I really can't even see the point of being mad about this.
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Mad? Weird choice of words.
Paying customers do not like a business decision. Its a normal part of everyday life. Calm, rational people evaluate a product and give a company feedback.
TWI said " Not at this current time" and in other interviews hinted it will be coming. You believe they lacked the ability to type " No, we will not implement that into our system".? That is your belief?
Imagine if you asked your girlfriend if she cheated on you. She replied " No, not at this current time:". Would that be okay? Seems open ended to me. But I d
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How is it weird choice of words? You are let\s say "crying" because a game added cosmetic items and maybe will add other items to the game that you will need to buy. If you enjoy the game I'm sure that spending a few bucks wouldn't hurt you too much. Once again you compare that to girlfriend, those are 2 different things don't you agree? So what if they will be coming? And I do hope that you realise that they can't simply remove all the items they already sold and give back players money? What if they actually make a wonderful decision and everyone likes it? It said that you will still be able to play game normally even without those new items so where is the problem? I don't get it. Please explain without horrible comparisons.
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Please respond in a single thread. You are bouncing to every discussion with different arguments and its impossible to maintain a single line of discussion. I think the comparison was dead on and you don't like it because it hit a nerve.
Pick one thread, stick to that thread. I'll be happy to answer any questions that refrain from name calling.
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It didn't hit a nerve since I have never had a girlfriend so you are wrong and for me this discussion is already ended :)
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Honestly, I'm not concerned; I'm pretty comfortable with Zedconomy and it's better, in my opinion, than the DLC flood that was KF1's later years. They've explained in posts that their development cycle is such that the people who work on skins and models are either outside of their workflow (already done with their content for the next update) or community members. I'm willing to accept this explanation, and as such I'm not particularly concerned. Cosmetics don't bother me, and I've made about $1.10 from the items just for playing a bit of KF2, so I'll take it.
Edit: Plus, it's named for me!
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Charge a fair price for DLC. They can still have in game drops for some items and allow trading / sellign on a market.
Say you have an AA12 weapons pack DLC for $2 and it contains 5 or 10 skins. Those skins can drop randomly in game at no charge. People can sell those drops on the market. The prices would never go $10 or $100 beause then people would just buy the whole pack. People wouldn't have to buy packs, they could get drops and trade/sell them to get what they want.
TWI makes money selling DLC packs and off the trading of ingame drops. Players have access to every single cosmetic. No gambling, no need to buy a key for $2.50 to get a $.05 cosmetic that you don't want, no artificial rarity that prices a golden gun at $50.
TWI also states they will never add stat boosts, perk boosts, weapons, maps, new perks, new game modes to the dlc. Make it clear you will or will not.
Win - win solution.
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You do realize that if you don't want to gamble you can simply buy it from the steam market?
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Rare items can only be had by gambling or the market. The market will price those items at $100. They do it in all the games. In F2P, that is the price you pay INSTEAD of buying the game. I bought KF 2, and its still in early access, and there is a way to do it without that manipulative system.
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If you don't want a 100$ item, don't buy it, there will be people who will and be happy with it, I don't see a problem with that. Maybe they will make those "Dlc packs" for the bonus weapons and keep cosmetics to cases.
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Flare guns change the game as does buzzsaw bow, steam punk rifle and others. They are all paid DLC. With TWI answering the question of will there be weapons, stat boosts, perk boost sold and the answer being " No, not at this CURRENT time", its clear they are coming.
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@Bigguns93
You counter everyone who disagrees with you, regardless of their stated reasons. There are aspects of your intent to contribute to this discussion for which you can find common ground even with those who do not fully agree with you--like how no one wants boosts on weapons. Try doing a better job of emphasizing the things that you can rally support for well, and discussing solutions for persuading TWI instead of attacking the statements of those who disagree with you. You can't just hammer over and over how every decision you've mentioned by TWI is wrong and awful because not everyone is going to agree with you and the end result is that this thread is going to be a lot less successful at fostering the sort of productive output that you desire.
Edit: Sorry, I combined two replies, and forgot who OP was. Fixed.
Further edit: I mistakenly implicated the OP.
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The point of a discussion is to discuss, sometimes persuade, some times argue / debate points. The issues are clearly broken down. If someone attacks you in a discussion it normal to try and clarify your points to see if you can gain understanding. I respect peoples right to disagree.
Try reading some of the replies. See how many times people just flamed back using ad hominem attacks.
I never said TWI is awful. As a paying customer I disagree with their current business process. I am informing others. If someone disagrees and wants to debate the issue, it takes clarification. If someone wants to say that is crying and entitled and you are just bashing TWI , they are wrong. Restating the point may not sway them but adds information for those new to the discussion. Trying to assuage those who disagree by limiting the discussion to the most minor points will not accomplish anything. Right now anyone can take any single point and say they agree or disagree and based on that opinion take an action..
You should try to do a better job of evaluating the people who are just flaming. Get them to post more constructive responses. Instruct them on the ways to agree with the smaller issues and not inflame a debate on the topics they can't reach agreement. You will be much more successful at fostering a productive output if you are more inclusive of all posters and their specific foibles.
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I'm not inflaming anything. I'm not doing a poor job of evaluating people. You have negated everyone who has disagreed with you. You have a viewpoint and wish others to adopt it. Copypasta of previous posts isn't as productive to that goal as you seem to think it is.
Someone disagreeing with you is not the same as someone flaming. Given my response I don't see where you can believe I support flaming. And not everyone who has disagreed with you has flamed you. Still, it is never a good sign in a thread when one or two people are doing all the responding to people with dissenting views, and using copypasta to do so. It probably means the thread isn't that productive.
I don't have the goal here of trying to put pressure on TWI to change or alter decisions they have made or will make in the future--you do. All I've tried to do is help you understand that perhaps your methods here are not going to foment the optimal result.
People describe gamers as entitled for various reasons, and many of those reasons are not good faith. Labels are easy in 2015 and they are often used to shut down discussions.
That said, part of the reason it has become so easy to describe people as entitled is because they demand a specific action, ignore all dissent, shut down discussions themselves, and at the extreme they become disruptive and harmful.
I saw this firsthand as a member of the PAYDAY 2 community, and while I generally had the same disapproval of Overkill's actions I found some disgruntled members of the community to be unproductive in their methods of expressing their anger over what had transpired.
You don't even know whether I am persuaded by your points or not. All you know is that I have criticized your posts here as not wholly productive, and instead of acknowledging at all my basic point (productive discussion fosters productive action) you wish to task me with ensuring that the replies to you are productive. That's not my responsibility. People are going to flame. That doesn't change that how you engage this discussion matters as well.
Additionally, saying that you have implied that TWI's decisions are "wrong and awful" is not the same as saying that "TWI is awful" as you then refuted in your response.
My point again is that you need to be persuasive and that copypasta and insisting that everyone agree with your opinion in full is not going to be as persuasive as you think. You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding TWI's practices and even what you think of my posts, but do not mistake my criticism of you here as some sort of endorsement of opposing viewpoints or of flaming. You are the primary participant in this thread and as such were the person I felt most needed a response.
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If a new person asks the same question, copy and pasting a reply saves time. I have not implied TWI is awful, you inferred it, I can not be held responsible for your inferences. I am not insisting everyone agree with me. I said I respect their right to disagree. I discuss valid counter points to offer additional clarification. I may sway some opinions and others I will not, but at least they will be informed opinions.
I think you have a learned response from PD 2 that you are immediately associating with me. In reality most of the responses are more like the PD 2 issues than my posts.
I respect your right to that opinion. I disagree. I have not expressed anger nor put down TWI, I have stated an opinion that I am dissatisfied as a consumer and I am informing other consumers and encouraging them to join in voicing the opinion to TWI. You are welcome to agree or disagree as is your prerogative.
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Copypasta does a poor job of addressing a specific point someone may have raised. If you want to refer them to earlier reply, doing so by directing them to it is more productive than merely pasting your response to someone else, as it makes you seem intractable and unwilling to discuss anything and merely interested in repeating your position ad nauseum.
Again, I did not say that you said that TWI was awful, I said, "[y]ou can't just hammer over and over how every decision you've mentioned by TWI is wrong and awful." And then when you demonstrated that you misunderstood that in your response I replied, "saying that you have implied that TWI's decisions are 'wrong and awful' is not the same as saying that [you said], 'TWI is awful.'"
You think that the issues you've addressed herein are "wrong" and "awful" decisions by TWI. That's my assertion. You may prefer other characterizations of your feelings about the decisions mentioned herein that TWI has made about their game. But there is no doubt that you dislike the decisions that they have made and that I described your feelings about those decisions as unpleasant (using the terms "wrong" and "awful"). I am now telling you again that I never said that you said that TWI themselves were awful. This is the second time I've tasked you to be more responsible in your reading comprehension. Please don't let there be a third.
I have not learned a response from PD2 that I am associating with you. I came into this thread and saw you replying to person after person, repeating yourself over and over, and denying any interpretation of the current state of KF2 and of TWI's actions other than your own and suggested that your behavior here was not the most productive way to reach your goals.
You wish to minimize your statements herein to mere civil debate, but you stated above:
"Better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. I will not go quietly into that goodnight. Tis nobler to take Arms against a Sea of troubles And by opposing end them.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."
You use the sort of high-minded analogies that one might expect of a protester fighting for civil rights or grave injustice rather than the business decisions of TWI. If you wish not to be criticized as an extremist or a crusader for your particular viewpoint then you might well not present yourself as such when someone mocks your position. And even then, it is important to note again that I have not criticized your actual position on TWI's practices.
Aneszej said this in response to you pasting the same thing several times:
"How many fucking times will you copy & paste that?
Read what you've quoted properly at least.
It's not confirmed, they're "evaluating options". Which means, they might, or might not add boosts.
And even if they add that, how does that ruin your experience? It's a co op game, you don't play against each other."
Was he flaming you because he used profanity? He seems to be annoyed at your willingness to 'discuss' the issue via mere repetition, took issue with your interpretation of the text you pasted, and asked you how the playing experience is impacted even if what fears you and others may have about TWI's future decisions comes to fruition. You did not respond to him. Maybe you responded elsewhere. But there you had an opportunity to elaborate on your points after pasting the same thing for a third time and you chose not to do so. Again, was he flaming because he disagrees? Do you think any part of the vehemence of his response was due to your willingness at that point to flood the thread with the same text over and over without elaboration and seemingly without addressing criticisms of your interpretation?
That is why I began to participate in the thread. I saw a lot of repetition, and a lot of denying other interpretations of the facts. You have the goal of whipping up support for your call to action and admirable or deplorable as that may be in my opinion your methods herein are sub-optimal. This was the basis of my initial response to you. I see that it has not been well taken. Fine. But at least parse my responses correctly so that I do not have to disabuse you of your incorrect interpretation of how I characterized your feelings.
Maybe you aren't angry with TWI. Maybe you just want a civil discussion. But when you use the language of a martyr and engage those who disagree with you with repetition rather than elaboration, you project the former instead of the latter.
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That's fine. I still like you. You're on my whitelist, not that my giveaways are any good.
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@giftasaurus: My goal here is to inform, expose and clarify rather than to counter individuals.
I only feel the need to counter when I perceive misinformation.
Individual opinions are respected but at the end of the day will have no consequence on the issue at hand.
Only a group with a concerted effort can really make a difference in this scenario.
And yes, ideally, this PSA will add customers/potential customers to the group.
As long as people know what they are getting into, they certainly can do whatever they want with their money.
However, TWI has made it difficult for customers to make an educated purchase...because they didnt make public their microtransaction/keycrate microeconomy style monetization model until 7.5 months into Early Access. To this day, there is no significant mention of it on the Steam Store. (You could find a slight blurb if you scroll far back into the Game Updates tiny tab, that is it.)
My goal is for people to realize the kind of monetization models included in this Early Access game.
In doing so, I am convinced most people will realize that it is not in the best interests of the consumer to support these sort of practices.
Personally, I think no rational human being should be okay with it....but of course, we should all put our wallets where our mouths are and things will sort themselves out somehow.
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I apologize for including you in my initial reply. I got things a bit upside down in terms of whom said what and unfairly implicated you as well.
I posted initially only with the purpose of implying my own support of your efforts herein to ensure that TWI does not continue or begin down a path to dividing and alienating members of their player base with what some of us believe to be short-sighted grabs at revenue, whilst advocating that repetition and addressing rebuttals--brusque and uncivil as they may be--through elaboration while at the same time acknowledging that one's opinion about a practice of future possibility may be interpreted differently.
Rereading your posts I find your efforts to be effective and in good faith (not that I find Bigguns93 to be in bad faith), and I apologize sincerely for my earlier and now edited response where I criticized your posts. I'm sorry.
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funny how the quote from the faq does not include the bit, where it says " We will be listening to player feedback on whether they would like a feature like this." ...
don't know if it was a recent change in the faq, but you can read this in the faq that is linked in the first post.
how exactly do these microtransactions ruin the game? can someone please explain this to me?
and like the developer said, you don't have to use the shop, so where's the problem?
kind regards and happy holidays!
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Dear fellow traders and gamers,
This is my PSA regarding KF2. I am all for educated, informed buyers and I figured potential customers will probably feel similarly. Additionally, I believe developers who stand behind their playerbase should be commended and supported, whereas those that attempt to take advantage from their player base should be outed. Id like to note that at the moment KF2 contains a key crate RNG microeconomy, an ingame store, Steam marketable items of differing rarity/quality with plans to create a crafting system, a paid curated mod workshop and a "Deluxe Upgrade." I post below the profile on a Steam group formed to provide feedback to TWI about the current microtransaction model they have instituted while on Early Access, with suggestions to change it to a more customer friendly and price point appropriate model.
TWI...NO Micro-transactions while on Early Access!
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/TWINOMICROTRANSACTIONS
Aim of the group is to get Tripwire Interactive Gaming to reconsider/reform the implementation of the Zedconomy.
We feel TWI made a mistake by adding the Zedconomy in such an early state of Early Access, while the core content of the game is incomplete and without a consolidated playerbase.
We would like TWI to permanently remove the key crate RNG microeconomy and item rarity/quality from the game.
Our message to TWI:
Please concentrate on finalizing the core Early Access game content and do not allow the Zedconomy implementation to change the direction and focus of the game.
Many of us are longtime TWI supporters and previously loyal fans. We want TWI and KF2 to succeed. Our Early Access support is proof of this. We want to monetarily support TWI without compromising our game experience or community. We are open to different monetization models, yet find the key crate RNG microeconomy objectionable and not fit for the game. We invite TWI to iterate the Zedconomy into something that attracts the playerbase rather than alienates a segment of it.
Ideally, sold items would confer no advantage to the owner and would remain cosmetic only. Please clarify those terms on your Zedconomy FAQ.
Implementation of the Zedconomy was clearly planned from very early on, if not from inception of the game into Early Access. We feel TWI withheld that information from the gaming population at large in order not to hurt their Early Access sales. Please address your community and bridge the fractured trust these recent actions have caused.
As a gesture of goodwill, consider facilitating refunds to interested parties who purchased KF2 on Steam prior to the Zedconomy announcement (11/23/2015).
http://steamcommunity.com/app/232090/discussions/0/618459405708087070/
Source: http://killingfloor2.com/Zedconomy/faq.html
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