+1
I'll also add that nobody here on Steamgifts is profiting from it, as bundled games don't count towards contributor value. So I see no harm.
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I think it would be so frustrating to know that millions of games are going to just sit and rot.
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Are you joking man? I really can't believe your interpretation of "personal use", but I advice checking your native law.
I will personally sell them! No! I will make whole damn personal shop where I will personally sell thousands of copies!
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well actually since we get no contribution value and it's a shame if the game goes to waste unplayed for eternity why not gifting it to ppl who wants it? :)
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Well yes, but it might be a lost sale. Since you get the DRM free version and the person who you give the Steam key gets the Steam version. I assume people take part in giveaways for games they might actually buy if they don't win one here. They're selling one game, but two people get one.
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Well, DRM free game. If someone wanted, he could set up a torrent for downloading all the DRM-free version of all the games from all the bundle at once, and it would be unstoppable...
But since those bundles are pay-what-you-want, no one does it. :3
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Guess they don't actually care. To be honest, I'd think it helps the charity more because people buy multiple copies. But they don't actually care about the charity, they're just doing it to, shall we say, farm contributor status.
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Define "farm contributor status" when you're clearly giving away bundled games. Last time I checked your bundled contributions is limited by your non-bundled contribution. If you know a way to "farm" these bundles, by all means wise sage of sages, please share.
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Yes, if they buy a bundle as a gift, but if you try to give away the separate keys, then you first have to activate the bundle on some email, and then the games belong to that emails owner and he's not allowed to gift them. At least that's how it seems to me. I'm just curious, I bought a bundle myself and then saw the text about "personal use."
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Well one major issue - good luck determining if it came from a bundle or not - sure, you could say that, "The odds," blah, blah, blah - but no proof. Also, I'm not sure about anyone else, but I typically only get the bundles for one or two games or to get DLC for a game I already have - then I usually end up with one or more copies of some other game that I already have simply because it was part of the bundle. Since I've paid more than once (sometime two or even three times) for it with one time usually being full price, I see no harm in giving away keys I'll never use - and really, can you tell me I can't give away something I've purchased...? "Oh, that CD of Mechwarrior you have - you have to keep it for life, no gifting it to your friends or kids when you die..." - um, yeah, sure.
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" and really, can you tell me I can't give away something I've purchased...?"
heh, steam does exactly that, how do you not know this and use steam?
not only does it prevent resale or gifting of anything you use because its tied to you forever, but when you buy a bundle that includes something you've already got that part of it gets wasted.(like when you use a key for civ pack while already having civ v it doesn't use up everything but the 5, or give a separate code it throws out the extra civ v)
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Games purchased via Steam are tied to your account, which is very different than purchasing an inactive key - I figured I wouldn't have to explain that. On top of that pirates seem to have no problem giving away games where the source files originated from Steam - so, where there's a will... How do you not know this?
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Well Docdra, if big corporations get their way that is exactly how it will be. I mean you already don't own most of your games it's just a 'license' to play it on your computer and/or console. (The console being another item that is just licensed for use in your home. Look it up it's scary shit.)
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I know all about this, but fortunately there are politicians that recognize that fair use should still apply, and in fact I believe that a lot of the licenses allow you to make backup copies for your own personal use. However, this is a far cry from having a key that would allow you to get the software - you haven't agreed to the license for the software itself simply by possessing or purchasing the key; until you "redeem" the key and begin the installation of the software you aren't bound by any licensing agreement at all...
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Here in Europe there are laws that tell us that keys and licenses should be tradeable/sellable, even used ones. So the question should be, why does HumbleBundle add these rules to their ToS while doing business in Europe(and thus breaking European laws).
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Not using the DRM free versions is the responsibility of the user. But yeah, you can also upload the DRM free versions for anyone to use. That's something developers/publishers just have to live with by providing DRM free versions.
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I'm not saying it's allowed, it's just something that happens. Take for example every game on GOG games. They all get shared on the various download sites. It's sad, but true and something the developers have to live with if they don't embrace some kind of DRM.
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Yea, it won't be long before someone figures out how to crack their software and play anything they have. Pirates will -always- figure out a way.
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I had a support person tell me that if the giveaway specifically states that it's from the humble bundle, or something like that where there's actual proof of where it came from, they'll take down the giveaway if you report it. Other than that they just can't enforce that rule.
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not just sales. they also meant you can't regift or break up the bundle.
the bundle belongs to the buyer(or in the case of buy as gift the one who opens the gift link)
the contents of the bundle are not to be redistributed.
you can't say buy hiba5 and keep beathazard while gifting dynamite jack according to their tos.
(because whatever you split and give away the one who opened the bundle still has the entire bundle(drm free can not be removed and steam isn't intended or sold as an extra key just an alternate way to use the same copy. give away the keys and you still have the games anyway(you'd still have dynamite jack after gifting the steam keys away)))
the thing about steamgift's side of it though is how are they supposed to tell/prove it unless you tell them you're doing it? its against sg rules to violate hib tos but they'd have to prove it and all keys look alike.
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It annoys me when that happens. I have several keys for games that I already own and so cannot use. It would be nice to be able to give them away; but I think they figure that because the bundles are so cheap, there really isn't a reason to be able to do that. shrug It would still be nice.
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I have never read or agreed to any TOS on their site. I have put my name in, I have put in my e-mail, I have clicked on "pay with".
No where I have I ever clicked on anything that says "I agree with the TOS". It might say in the FAQ that you can't, but unless you do some sort of legal agreement with the site then you can do with the keys as you please.
Even if they did say it in their TOS, without having an "I agree" button their TOS is pretty much unenforceable. And even then, legally do you think it would be wise for them to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers to go people in many different countries who spends anywhere from 1 to 10 bucks for some games?
No it wouldn't be smart because not only would they loose all that money spend on lawyers, and they would more then likely be going after many kids, but it would drive so many people away from the site that they would only be making a fraction of what they do now.
Imagine if you bought something from a store, but before you bought it, you had to agree that only you would be the one to ever use that item and that you would never sell, trade or give the item away, ever and if you did, you would be sued. How long would you think that store would be open? Just because the game key is not a "physical" item, doesn't mean the people selling those keys should have any more legal right to tell you what you can do with it compared to some store like walmart or target.
Again though, I did not click on anything that says "I agree" with what ever. And even if I did, its pretty much unenforceable because of the cost to them in REALLY bad PR and lawyers to try to track me down and sue me. Just in lawyer fees, just one person would cost them 50,000 dollars for a trial (money they would never get back from suing someone). Bad PR would be 1000 times that or more.
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you're taking this all wrong. Its not about whether they can or would enforce it, just seems rude to knowingly disregard their really simple and barely restrictive tos is all(you're right its more like a request than a binding rule, but). if you're going with the "I can do it cause you can't or won't stop me" argument you're going down a dark jungle law path that could permit just about anything lol.
the reason they have that people will tend to see the keys as extra and fine to distribute, but because the game is drm free you can play the same games you're giving away so it isn't really giving a game away. the steam key isn't meant to be extra copies just an alternate form for those that prefer it.
I can give you a copy of dungeon defenders on steam without actually losing the ability to continue playing it myself because I opened up the key to get it so have access to drm versions of all the games. so they consider(and ask you to consider as well) the bundle and all its contents as belonging to the individual who opened it and being for their own use.
they didn't sell me a copy drm free and a copy on steam, they sold me a game that can be used either drm free or through steam.
sure there isn't any practical reason to argue it but that isn't the point of the internet anyway.
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Neither in response to you, nor anywhere else in this thread did I say that there was any legal claim Humble Bundle could make. Even if there was a legal claim it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce and I think Humble Bundle knows this.
However, they do not like this situation and have kindly asked people to respect the spirit of their offer of multiple platform choices / back-ups. It is a nice feature they have offered, and it is not the only way that Humble Bundle has provided good service to me and others. For that, and because I try to be a respectful person in general, I don't think it is too much to ask to show some courtesy towards their humble (no pun intended) request.
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Actually, a TOS is suppose to be a legally binding contract. People are saying its in the TOS that we agreed to, which would imply we agreed to a legal contract.
Seeing as how I have not clicked an "I agree" button anywhere on their site when buying stuff, I have not agreed to their TOS (aka a legally binding contract)
Is a tos a legally binding contract (google search)
And even IF I clicked "I agree" on a TOS I never read them because its all in legalese which for the majority is long and boring and mostly only lawyers understand it and I'm not hiring a lawyer to read every TOS I'm suppose to agree with to visit many websites then I would still do with the keys as I please.
I also view digital items I buy online no different then physical items I buy in a store (no matter what the stupid laws say). Once I pay my money for the item, its mine and I will use it or give it (or parts of it) to who ever I wish. Once I am done with it, if I don't want it anymore I will sell/trade/give it away to someone (if I can). Some companies think I should not be allowed to do this, I say screw them, they have my money if I don't need/want the item anymore why shouldn't I legally be able to give/sell/trade it to someone.
Also if I remember right, not everything in a TOS can be legally binding. There have been cases where websites have tried to enforce crap they put in their TOS but the courts toss it out. Heck just look at this one (Court Rules Website Terms of Service Agreement Completely Invalid) This one case actually is pretty close to what we are talking about now. People didn't click agree to the TOS so they can't be held to it.
I'm glad Humble Bundle is giving out keys for each game now, it actually means I will buy more stuff from them to get what I want and giveaway what I don't want.
And for the record, I only ever give out steam keys I have no interest in. I never give out the DRM Fee stuff or the Desura stuff.
Oh and just because they are doing a good thing for charity doesn't mean people should listen to what they are told to do with their TOS. If they don't want people giving out all the extra stuff they get, then they should only be giving out a single key for everything and not give out anything that can't be bound to a game account. But well, how long would they last then without giving out AAA titles all the time if all the games were tied to 1 single key.
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They have your money, which you gave them while agreeing to never split up the bundle. Failing to uphold your side of the agreement forfeits all benefits on your side, without impacting any benefits paid to HB.
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Good point. I just internalize anything I read on the FAQ as applying to all my dealings with any given entity.
I correct myself: You are only legally bound to things that you and HB agree that you have been shown, and agreed with by continuing with your purchase. You are not legally required to follow anything that has not been presented to you during the transaction.
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You paid a minimal amount of money for some great games and you can't seriously abide to their terms of service?
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Yeah! Fuck that charity partner and their stupid polite request! YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, PEOPLE WHO OFFER ME MULTIPLE GAMES FOR AS LITTLE AS A PENNY.
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The lawyers who wrote the TOS thought it was a wise clause. The Humble guys don't give a flying fsck if Mr Joe Average gives away his extra keys.
Actually, Humble used to give away whole bundles as a bonus, and nowadays, repeats from their own bundles. So they're perfectly aware there's a high chance a sizeable portion of the customer base will have duplicates to give away. Not only they don't care, they are likely doing it on purpose.
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probably wolfire's post on piracy. from what i remember it basically says "you're a dick and a cheapass to not spare even a penny to legally get your own bundle(they say this nicely though, and with more sarcasm than bluntness). I'm sure you have an excuse that feels sufficient to you however I don't understand why you feel the need to steal pwyw bundles with no min. I can't stop you...well actually we can but we refuse to be like that and punish everybody else...so we've decided we don't care. So if you're going to pirate at least don't cost us money by using our servers, go to bittorent instead of sharing our download links directly"
and can be extrapolated to mean if they don't care about piracy then they definitely wouldn't care if you gave away subdivided bits of copies you actually bought.
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I've heard of that post before (probably even read the original at some point), but it doesn't really reflect the claims of the OP. If anything it would seem to refute his claim that the Humble Bundle guys don't care. They obviously DO care but just feel helpless to stop it.
Basically they asked nicely for people to follow a rather reasonable policy, and many people are giving them the middle finger. When I have business dealings with cool people I tend to grow quite friendly with them and I am happy to honor their small, reasonable requests.
Some people here (not you TheGannet) only know how to take.
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Humble makes tons of sales, they eclipse the other bundles by thousands of copies. A few hundred copies being given away for free on SG is not going to hurt them.
Besides, giving away something I bought is a personal use; at least to me.
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This...also I am pretty sure they just don't want us selling those keys...thats it I think....think.
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Makes that hundredthousands lol. They were the first and all others are well, cheap rip-offs most of the time.
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I don't think I am breaking their rules though. To me, giving away items I've purchased is a personal use.
If I were to hoard keys and try to re-sell them for cash/profit then I would see that as commercial (ie. non-personal) use.
Not trying to get into fight though, this is just how I interpret the rules.
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I may be out of the loop, but it was a bit of a gray area last time I checked. Yes, we do want to keep a good standing with Humble Bundle and other bundle sites, so we should delete them if we reasonably think it's a bundle key, right? Yeah, well, that would just go into exactly the reason we started allowing bundle keys in the first place. Too much work, too few people, too much wasted effort to go through everyone and find out if it was a bundle copy or not. So last I checked, officially, no. Practically, there's nothing we can do about it.
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Then people who had gifts wouldn't be able to give them away. We used to only allow gifts, but far too many people would just submit keys anyway and hardly anyone rats them out since they're getting a free game either way.
Humble Bundle has never taken action against anyone and even gave multiple keys of the same game in a bundle which defies their own rule.
If you're concerned, start taking names and report them to Humble Bundle...
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At best, Humble Bundle could only ban someone from buying a future bundle. The result is:
A. They get less money OR
B. A buyer just buys them from an alternate e-mail address.
And that's even assuming Humble can figure out who they are. They are not Steam or Steamgifts and do not have access to either's database. (And all the games I've given away, none from Humble Bundles, the keys have NEVER passed through SteamGifts. They get e-mailed to the person I gift. That person reports he got the gift, and SG is happy.)
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As Peroxide pointed out, this is a complete non-option. Since you're a newbie, I don't think you could even comprehend the amount of bullshit the moderators went through trying to enforce the "no bundle keys" rule without impacting other users who did nothing wrong. In the end, we surrendered, said "fuck it" and just allowed them with a change to how contribution value was calculated.
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"Yes, we do want to keep a good standing with Humble Bundle and other bundle sites,"
Does SG even do work with bundle sites anymore except indieroyale sometimes?
I don't recall any humble bundle dev giveaways? And indie gala used to do it often but they've made their own shitty site and don't gift here anymore.
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We don't directly work with them (that I know of) but that's no reason to purposefully sour relations, preventing future cooperation.
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What about to add a notice about this problem? So I think SteamGifs would have fewer giveaways from individual games from this bundle. In the current context, almost everybody think that gifting individual key from Humble Bundle is allowed. For notice, I mean something in homepage, as sticky thread or Steam group message don't help enough.
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1) Someone purchased Humble Bundle -> their personal use to do with what they like, just not for resale/trading/profit.
2) Charity gets money -> Happy happy joy joy!
3) Someone gets game -> Fun fun fun!
4) Everyone is happy -> Except for grumpy old you?
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I'll agree with most of the others that there's nothing wrong with it, and even add to it:
If Humble is this dead set on people not even giving away keys, then repeating games from previous bundles is a jerk move. A new customer ends up getting more value for the pack than a return customer.
Plus, why did they make it possible to give away extra keys from moving from one key for the bundle to individual game keys?
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Moving from one key to many keys IS a strange move, you are right. However, I do not see how it is a "jerk move" to repeat games. Obviously as a person, like you, that owns previous bundles (Humble Bundles and other bundles), I do not need many of the games. However, I do understand that they need to try to balance appealing to old customers (who may or may not buy another bundle) and new customers (or old customers that just missed the bundle in question). So, I do not really blame them for including repeats, though it does make me have little interest in the bundle as a whole.
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If I buy a bundle that only comes with one key, and the only games I can benefit from are still worth more to me than the price I paid, I still come out of the situation very happy.
It isn't about how much we pay, it's about how much it's worth to us. Repeating games in bundles is -not- a jerk move, and I gree with ceildric on that.
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That's a different argument than the one that the OP made. I was addressing his cavalier attitude.
As for gifting being personal use, while I can see some merit in that argument, I tend to disagree. Because only the Steam key is being gifted (and not exclusive access to the DRM-free download and possible Desura key) the single license which the user bought has now become two or three. I am sure that preventing this was the main intent of the rule, and since gifting a Steam key by itself does in fact cause this eventuality, then it can be said to violate the spirit of the rule.
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If I already have one legally allowed backup copy, I will never use this second 'backup copy' I 'accidentally' made. I can't give away this unneeded copy.
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Eh, thing is, I did giveaway extras from Humble Bundles before, because I already had them. If I already had a license prior to buying the bundle, is it wrong then? I believe most people do the same, they give away what they already had. Effectively, in most cases, there is no "license duplication"
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An unenforced law is merely a suggestion, like drinking under the legal age in the remote countryside, speed limits in the middle of nowhere, or the legality of pot on the west coast USA.
As an aside, in 1999 Spain RAISED the age of consent to 13. You learn some strange things when looking up legal drinking ages around the world.
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It's rather common to have a clause where if the age discrepancy between the persons is small then it's not illegal. Of course, what consistutes 'small' and when to apply it seems pretty much completely arbitrary.
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If I buy a cheeseburger and it comes with a pickle on it, I THROW OUT THE DAMN PICKLE. I don't bring the sandwich back to the counter and ask that the pickle get its own take-home box. On the other hand, I am free to give that pickle to anyone who wants it.
What I shouldn't do, and often can't legally do, is buy 10 sandwiches at 25% regular price with my employee discount and give these away to my friends who are benefitting from my misuse of my discount. The store is losing 75% of the cost of each of these sandwiches, which may have been purchased at regular price by friends who were hungry for a cheeseburger a few minutes ago.
If there is no policy against splitting up a bundle, then you are free to do so. Since there is, there is no gray area here. It is not allowed. But HB will have a hell of a time enforcing this since they're giving one key per product.
To make another not-100%-accurate food comparison, think of going to a restaurant. You order bottomless french fries (chips to 99% of all non-USA countries) and a drink, while your friend just orders a drink. You both then proceed to consume plate after plate of 'free' fries. Should this be legal?
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My friend gets free access to something he did not pay for, therefore the shop didn't get paid their due. I did say that it was an imperfect comparison. The only accurate comparison I can come up with is to compare breaking up a bundle to breaking up a bundle.
I do imagine there are people who keep using their DRM-free copies and give away the Steam key. Maybe HB should start giving single keys again?
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Fairly decent comparison, except that McDonalds does not have a policy against meal sharing.
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And if they did, I'd laugh at them and ignore them.
I bought a pack of games for X price. It's not all you can eat. It's I bought this much. To tell someone to let an extra go to waste rather than give it away for free is silly.
Especially since they did not put this term into any kind of agreement when you buy the game. It's hidden in an FAQ page.
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If McDonalds had such a policy, we would see more people bringing their meals home. Or just going to Burger King, Wendy's (current favorite), or any common sit-down restaurant.
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Except you ate inside, and it was one of the ones with the soda dispenser out with the customers not behind the counter.
instead of the fries you gave your friend the soda which he drank, but you also refilled the cup to get your own soda before you left
(and maybe you don't drink it your friend had his soda and you never gave the cup or machine a second thought, but you still could, so giving soda doesn't remove soda from you which is why the sticky note on the side of the cup said that it was for your personal use only and not to be split up or shared. (the choice was meant to be grape or rootbeer, not that you could drink rootbeer and give grape to your friend(they only gave you one cup). soda is a single game, say dynamite jack. grape soda was a steamkey for dynamite jack. rootbeer is drm free dynamite jack, you get both but normally you only use one, and you don't miss the grape you gave away.)
(mcdonalds may not care if you were able to split the bundle in a way that removed the cup from your possession(or like giving your friend the fries) but you can't so its honorsystem(which doesn't work on faceless crowds overall) that you won't use the cup to get the rootbeer too and so I doubt the manager would like to see 2 people share one cup to get 2 full orders of soda, ....but he also isn't jumping over the counter to kick your ass over 13cents of soda because he specifically doesn't want to be that guy)))
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That analogy only works if my friend and I are sharing one game (one item in the combo, the soda). We cannot do this because it's one key that goes on my Steam or his. It's just trying to redirect it to an example of an all you can eat restaurant when it's not the same thing.
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yeah, not saying you are or would, just that there isn't any way to avoid the opportunity to do that, which is probably why the faq says not to break up bundles, whoever opens the bundle to get the keys has drm free games. Try as you may to give the steam keys away there isn't any way to remove access to the drm free versions, not even one to voluntarily delete them. you just have to ignore them for games you gift.
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no,
but the question was why aren't you supposed to, why its in the faq/tos, why steamgifts technically doesn't allow it ect. not does it make you a monster to give games.
so that in mind that faq entry wasn't so much written for you just like how the law against shooting your neighbor wasn't written for anybody who wouldn't do it if the law wasn't there. its in their terms because somebody could do that, some people will for that reason, and they want to make it clear they don't condone it(even if they won't actually expend any energy on enforcing it)
the problem is that even if you don't use the drm free version after gifting steam keys(and so you keep the game at its intended number of copies) you're basically on the honor system and while you're good with that people as a group can't be trusted on an honor system. so they said that you shouldn't/ which makes it still pretty much honorsystem but it looks better for them(and I guess they can probably ban you or something if you do something dumb like buy 1000 for .01 each and sell them at 75% full price or whatever).
bundles aren't supposed to be split because they can't really be split. no matter how it is divided the one who opened the bundle still has all of its contents. doesn't mean they'd enforce it, doesn't mean everybody who splits the bundle is going to make use of that to basically pirate games, it just means that they saw that possibility and so said not to do it probably to cover themselves for when somebody does.
you don't give games with the intention of continuing to use the drm free version, some people do. and because it isn't sold as getting the steam and drm free versions but rather as the option for the purchaser to use steam if he prefers they had to put that line in their tos, and because of that steamgifts put that line in theirs about splitting bundles who's tos says not to. not that steamgifts can do anything about it if you do cause how do they prove it, just more as a gesture.
the only reason I even replied to your post was to clarify the analogy not to accuse you. and yeah, it doesn't really matter ;)
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Indeed they do, a local Mongolian barbecue restaurant will charge you for two bowls if two people try to share one.
More on topic though (not directed at you ceildric, just don't want to post twice), I think if HB doesn't want people splitting up the keys, they should do one key for all the games in a bundle. That's the only way they can stop it.
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Thats when I release the rat into the back of the kitchen.....right? ;-D
You paid for the food, you should be able to do what the hell you want with it, that actually angers me greatly. They have to be losing business by doing this, almost half the people I know split meals in restaurants because well lets face it, times are hard. Any lace that puts a rule up like that can shove it.
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Yeah, I am not trying to be a dick by saying this but honestly I would not even give the place my business, I rather go to a restaurant with even slightly worse food that treats me like a customer should be treated.
I can give a great example: So I have been ordering from this pizza place for about 4-5 years now, one day they send me a spinach pie which I usually get, so I open the pie and it smells rotten, I taste it and it taste like it was BAD. I always got great food here, so I call back and tell them the issue, they tell me that they are going to come get the pie and give me my money back right, I say "Cant I just get another pie" then they say "No, Have a nice life". So that ends them getting more years of my business, they didn't even compensate the tip money. So I wasted an hour ordering a pie and was out 4 bucks.
I tend to stay away from businesses with shitty service.
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Oh I understand. I had already been to the place a few times before I realized that was their policy, and it's somewhere I rarely eat anymore. Tons of choices for eating out around here, so it's definitely their loss, not mine.
That pizza place is a good example of how not to handle unhappy customers, especially long-time patrons. I would be sure to avoid anywhere that treated me like that.
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You should just ask for no pickles. What a waste of food.
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To bring up a point made in replies to previous comments, despite what some people say, you DO NOT agree with Humble Bundle not to redistribute the games when you buy them. It's not a terms of service. It's a clause buried in their FAQ that likely most never read and thus never agreed to.
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It isn't a matter of never reading it, it's a matter of being asked if you agree to abide by the rules found within the FAQ.
Choosing to not read a list of rules, then performing an action that confirms you agree with those rules, still binds you to those rules. Did HB show people these rules on the path to transaction completion? Displaying it on the same page as the keys and nowhere sooner doesn't count.
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I'd have to buy a new bundle to make sure (and I really don't want to buy this bundle), but I don't recall even having to press a checkbox of "I have read and understand the terms" or whatever. Just entered my e-mail address, and how much I was paying and I was sent to Paypal. Afterwards, I got the keys.
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feel free to try and enforce it... its not gonna work though
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Maybe you could teach by example gifting a non-bundle game. May I suggest Skyrim?. Lots of people want it here
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So why is everyone allowed to gift these here?
Edit: So I was informed it is NOT allowed. You are allowed to gift the bundle if it's purchased as a gift, but not the individual keys. So do this at your own risk.
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